A conversation with a muslim

By no means does this represent the attitudes of all muslims. It is merely representitive of one particular strand of cultural thinking found within some communities.

So I went to this little debate titled Does God not exist. It was sponsored by a Young Muslims orginization. You can see a thread describing this event here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=111x22691 .

After the formal debate the few atheists were swarmed by countless Muslims each eager to try their hand against an atheist. One of the individuals I found myself in conversation with gave some insite into why the Iraqi situation may be intractable. This was not an insite he sought to give but perhaps it was there.

His question had to do with morality. He was wondering where atheists derived their morality from. We (myself and one of the formal debaters) tried to explain that we derived our morality from our social existance and the benefits to us from living in a healty society. This seemed to fail in his eyes. In particular it seemed to fail in the area of vengence and justice.

One of the recurring themes in the Muslim's arguments seemed to be one of the universe seeks justice. To them the idea that a cruel individual could escape justice by escaping into the oblivion of atheistic ideas of death was incomprehensible. Justice in their eyes must be served.

Each individuals sense of justice must be addressed. If someone harms you, you are compelled to return the injustice. The death of the individual that harmed you is necissary. Vengence demands action. This seemed to be a very certain position in this particular individuals case. He could not seperate the desire for vengence from the need for a social response to the crime instead of his own personal vengence. That is he could not rely on society to address the wrongs done to him or his loved ones and believed that it could only be addressed by his own hand.

Now while this may not have been the cultural position of all present, this individual certainly held to it strongly to such a degree that I doubt a simple law restricting such actions would stop him. The idea of relying on the society to redress wrongs does not seem to have gotten through to this part of Islamic society.

Thus when we offer our societal system in place of theirs they see no justice in it. When we tell them that killing in the name of vengence is wrong and they see our own leaders voting for death penalties they see our words as hollow. When they see our society turn out creatures that treat other humans as animals they see our system as bankrupt.

Our journey to our social and cultural morals was one of self discovery. Our moral codes were not handed to us. This is one valid way of arriving at our position. What we are proposing to do in Iraq is to hand them our moral precepts as they currently stand and expect them to accept them happily. The only chance this has of taking is if we represent a moral calliber beyond reproach. If we fail to represent something they can look up to then they have no reason to accept our offer.

We have failed in this measure. Our elections are corrupt. Our politics has become overrun with money. We do not hold to the ideals we even seek to impose on them with regards to secualrism. And we even continue the abuse that we claimed we would free them from.

The culture of justice found in some Islamic cultures will not allow the harm we have caused to go unpunished. We cannot hunt down each and every one of them. We cannot pull out. We can only oppress and keep them held down. And this only furthers the desire for revenge on their part.

you have just shown that those blinded by religious ideals, cannot
see the humanity that surrounds them.

Literally, they are afraid to think on their own. If they were to
start thinking on their own...they would be truly free.

This is the world in which we must strive to live. We cannot force them to believe other than they do. We can present the arguments before them and hope they see some wisdom in them. But in the end it becomes a problem of how the brain works and how new ideas are accepted within. The flows and rythms of society are difficult to manuevor but this is the issue we face.

I just walk away and let them be. Its not my place to tell them or
even suggest to them what they should believe...and I expect the
same reciprocal treatment....unfortunately, that's not how it works.

I just like to point out to these theists that generations of
"religious" folks are behind all the world's attrocities and NOT
atheists. As you mentioned in your recap, all these religious nuts
bind together to take a swipe at atheists...the only time that they
are on the same side.

I much prefer to walk away...since you cannot have an intelligent
conversation with a wall...

Basically, that's the mentality of the 11 year old boy. Maybe even the six year old. He understands how he feels and to hell with you.

Cultures that enshrine that juvenile attitude never grow. How can you grow if any moment you may offend someone's testosterone and he'll have to kill you and your family for his "honor?" How can such a culture ever have an original invention or idea?

I understand the thinking. I just don't respect it. Justice, my ass. A nation of Hamlets.

How about the simple notion that people have to live together, and they ought to treat each other with decency and respect as a result.

Muslims are just as fanatical as these fake right-wing Christians that Bush leads by the nose. I respect their right to their religion, but I'm pretty sure they don't feel the same way about me and my beliefs

if you came about your religious beliefs on your own, I won't agree with them, but I'll respect your search and your right to hold them. The biggest problem I have is that most people are xxx (catholic, baptist, muslim, buddhist, etc.) because their parents were xxx and raised them the same way. If you're told something over and over at a young age, with hearing alternative perspectives, you'll come to believe it too. Presumably, most Anglicans in England, believe their religion is the "right" one, even though the doctrine was modified by whim of the King for his own needs.

As long as people are being indocrinated from earliest childhood to believe that violence must be answered with violence then the spiral of increasing violence will never be broken.

As much as I wish to be tolerant of other people's beliefs some radical poilitacl beliefs and some radical religious beliefs are extremely dangerous to the survival of the human race. At what point do we wake up and realize that the widespread acceptance of such dangerous beliefs poses a dire threat to our survival, and admit that in spite of our desire to honor diversity, some beliefs should simply not be tolerated.

comes from how various social customs interact with each other. In this particular case there is a very dangerous mix. If two societies that acknowledged the right of vengence interacted with one another there could be resolution. If two societies that insisted that crimes be dealt with in a legal manner interacted there could be a resolution.

But in this case the legal society has attacked members of the vengeful society. When the members of the attacke society attempt to act on what they percieve as their right to vengence they will be held down by other members of the legally based society. This will incurr further escalation of hostility between the cultures.

It is the particular mix that makes this so volital. Akin to a nuclear bomb going off this could lead to a run away spiral of violence.