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What is the rush? (Fundies and the obsession with The End of Days)

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elfwitch

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Wed May-12-04 01:07 PM
Original message

What is the rush? (Fundies and the obsession with The End of Days)

As many a DUer knows, I am Jewish. I chose Judaism. There are many reasons why. One of the reasons is because i could never understand why Christians (especially Fundamentalists and Evangelicals) are in such a big rush to being about the end of the world.

Let's just assume for a moment that those of them that are trying to hasten the end of the world honestly believe that they will get to go to heaven. Even assuming that, are they so selfish and narrow minded that they cannot see that destroying the world is bad for everyone, including themselves?

Let's say, just for fun, that there is no Armageddon. Let's say, just for fun, that there is no "End of Days". Don't they realize that they are making the world unlivable? They are so wrapped up in the hereafter that they cannot see it is making the here and now miserable.

Please... Somebody explain this to me. As a Jew, I am expected to make the world we live in as good as possible because we don't know what happens after you die. There may be Heaven. There may not. In any case we all have to live here and we have to live now. What is the point in making Earth hell? What if there is no hell? What if there is no heaven?

If you spend you entire life miserable or wallowing in the misery of others with the hope that the afterlife will be paradise... Why bother living?

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LoZoccolo

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Wed May-12-04 01:11 PM
Response to Original message

1. I've never seen anyone actually advocate provoking it.

Seriously - I've really never seen this. I think it's just one of those assumptions people hold and it's just as bad as the way the FReepers do it toward the muslims.

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ijk

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Wed May-12-04 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #1

5. Not true.

It is absolutely the case that some "End Times" types believe in provoking the apocalypse. It's been true throughout history - in every religion in which such a thing was concievable, there have been people who wanted to hurry it. Judaism included; it was, for instance, a feature of some early chasidic groups.

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LoZoccolo

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Wed May-12-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #5

8. Again, I've never seen it.

And I'm not comfortable with putting that intention in anyone's heads just as I'm not comfortable with the conservatives putting intentions in mine.

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IrateCitizen

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Wed May-12-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #8

23. You need to take a look at Religious Right support for Israeli settlements

NOW with Bill Moyers did a piece on this a while back. The Religious Right unequivically support Israel, no matter what, because it fulfills one of the conditions of the "second coming". They've said it plainly on many occasions.

And if the "Left Behind" books don't convince you, just take it a step further and google search for "Tim LaHaye". He's the RR nutjob minister who conceived the series, and he makes Falwell and Robertson look almost sane by comparison.

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lapislzi

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Wed May-12-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #23

45. Karen Armstrong's The Battle for God

If you haven't read it yet, I recommend it highly. You're even welcome to borrow my copy, since we're practically neighbors :)

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calimary

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Wed May-12-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #8

39. You should check out Hal Lindsey some time.

Maybe it's Lindsay. Not sure how it's spelled. He wrote a book called (I think) "The Last Days of the Late, Great Planet Earth," or maybe it's simply "The Late, Great Planet Earth."

In it he dissects various Bible passages - especially those of Revelations - and tries to apply them to events in modern times. Basically, he says, the countdown began with the establishment of the state of Israel. These days, he's alive and well in fundie whacko circles. He's just one of many who say the end is coming and it's bearing down on us now - because of so many confluences of events that tie in to the various scriptural prophesies - at least in his opinion. But the book was a bestseller and I know there are plenty of people take it at least semi-seriously. He's recognized as having great credibility by the types of people (and "true believers") he hangs with.

And then, too, there's that huge berzerko crowd that eats up those Tim LeHaye rapture books.

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notadmblnd

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Wed May-12-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #39

76. The Jehova Witnesses that knock on my door

have been preaching the end of times for years.

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struggle4progress

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Wed May-12-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #5

70. The only Hasidic reference I've ever seen ...

to anything related was somewhere in Buber: it told of a shepherd who knew a secret ritual to bring the Messiah, but when he began to recite it, fires broke out in town and his sheep scattered in terror, and he stopped and went to retrieve his sheep.

I didn't read that parable as a Hasidic call to provoke the apocalypse but just the opposite.

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elfwitch

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Wed May-12-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #1

7. You must be blind...

There was a post here about the Virginity Pledge. An interview with one of the founders of that organization mentioned the End of Days. They are prepping their kids with sexual abstinence and any other manner of crazy notions to protect them from the impending Armageddon that they are sure is happening soon.

The whole "Left Behind: series sells like mad because people are eating up the idea that the end is neigh.

It's everywhere. There are several uber-Right Christan groups, that would as soon kill a Jew as look at one, that funnel millions of dollars in to Israel. They aren't doing it because they want to help the Jewish homeland. They are doing it because they are convinced that once Israel gets it's act together, Armageddon will commence.

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LoZoccolo

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Wed May-12-04 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #7

20. I guess I'm talking more about the cataclysmic stuff.

Like the wars and what not. I admit I haven't really heard much from the right-wing Christian segment for a long time, even since before 9/11, and though I don't doubt there's people that don't take it this way, when I hear people talk about Armeggedon it's usually more from a standpoint of how things'll get worse before they get better, not an "I-love-the-violence" standpoint. It's a nuance that I think a lot of people gloss over, and I don't think it's lost on people who believe it when it is glossed over.

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Bluebear

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Wed May-12-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #20

28. From a "Rapture Ready" website

"Hey, when Christ returns at the end of Armageddon, he is going to destroy all evil with one word. So why does he need an army behind him as backup? Spectators maybe? I hope not! I personally want to be in his army and charge those evil you know whats! It is going to be the end of all evil, im sure it has to be dramatic as the charge of Rohan in Lord of the Rings: return of the King. sounds fun to me!!! how bout you guys?"

I have seen many postings exhorting the Christian God to use Bush as his vehicle to further events in the Middle East towards this Rapture they are so looking forward to.

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minkyboodle

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Wed May-12-04 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #28

89. LOL

Lord of the Rings... hilarious

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CJCRANE

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Wed May-12-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #20

33. I've never heard of

Armageddon described as "things'll get worse before they get better".
Armageddon is the Big One, The End of the World, Finito, the Whole Enchilada. Trying to gloss over it as a blip on the road to progress sounds pretty strange to me.

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LoZoccolo

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Wed May-12-04 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #33

35. I'm not talking about the magnitude.

Edited on Wed May-12-04 01:40 PM by LoZoccolo

I'm talking about whether people actually look forward to the painful stuff or what comes after it.

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Unperson 309

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Wed May-12-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #33

59. Actually It's the Tribulation

That's seen as "worse before it gets better".

Supposedly, the Trib happens after the Second Coming or the Antichrist or some such... they have a real timeline set up.

Gogle the "countdown to armageddon" and see what you find. Shivery stuff, this.

309

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progressivebydesign

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Wed May-12-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #7

46. I saw the sickest Christian billboard on a church the other day...

.. it read: Jesus Is Coming Back For His Bride! Are You Engaged?

Freaks.. one and all.

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apnu

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Wed May-12-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #7

51. One thing to keep in mind...

... historically when a great epoch turns (1900 to 2000 for example), historically nutters come out of the woodwork and start preaching that the end is nigh. it happened in the early 1900's, the early 1800's, the early 1700's and so on and so on; all over the globe.

For some reason, beyond my understanding, when the year turns to a big round number, people start becoming really confused and it takes decades for them to calm down.

What really boggles my mind is that our calendar is totally arbitrary. Since the Julian calendar started counting at a completely recent and random time in our planet's history. Then there are other cultures that use a different calendar. Judaism, for example, says its the year 5,000 something. (I think... I'm not positive on that but I do know its a number way off the Julian calendar. Not being Jewish, I don't know where to go and look up the Jewish date)

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elfwitch

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Wed May-12-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #51

52. Here ya go...

http://www.hebcal.com/
It is currently the year 5764 on the Jewish calendar.

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apnu

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Wed May-12-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #52

54. cool! so i was kinda right.

Thanks for the link...

BTW, I tried to give you some answers (from my non-religious perspective) in post #22... but it seems to have been buried. I hope my thoughts help answer your questions.

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elfwitch

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Wed May-12-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #54

55. You were great...

All the ideas here are helping a bit.
I just don't think I'll ever understand why they can claim to follow the teachings of a Jewish proto-rabbi and then be such shits among themselves and to everybody else.

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apnu

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Wed May-12-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #55

56. that indeed is a great mystery...

... fundies don't seem to follow the teachings of Christ at all. They seem to be rather like Alistair Crowley. 'The Great Beast' himself broke from the Golden Dawn and formed his own 'religion' called Thelema. It was a mish-mash of whatever he found interesting in just about every philosophy and religion in the world (save Native Americans). Now, granted, much of the Golden Dawn is bastardized stuff from antiquity, an the Quabbla (Tree of Life -- Jewish mysticism I believe) but I digress....

Crowley took only what he wanted from other sources and ignored the rest , especially the context of whatever he was raiding. Fundies seem to do the same but with one single source -- the Bible.

Ever notice how they seem to live, and only live, in the Old Testament? They haul out the NT only when it suits them, generally in a derogatory way, and the Book of Revelations.

The fundie God (known, I think as "Bible God") is a mean, wrathful, spiting creature. And they idolize "it" (not professing to know the gender of God). A strange dichotomy, how can one be a Christian (turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor) yet call for and practice numerous acts of hate and murder (Planned Parent Hood shootings/bombings for example)

I'm right with you on the bewilderment, elfwitch.

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Az

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Wed May-12-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #56

61. If you read the bible, the 2nd coming is already way off schedule

Jesus told his apostles that there were some with him that would not taste death before he came into his kingdom.

Matt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Now either there is a very very old and angry apostle running around out there or someone goofed.

Much of the text of the 2nd coming indicates that it was supposed to be within the lifetime of most there.

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Taverner

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Wed May-12-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #61

66. Most Fundies seem to forget, Jesus already came back

It was in Acts...he shows up and Thomas sticks his fingers in his wounds to prove it's real, hence the name "Doubting Thomas."

Oh, and Fundies should learn Revelation already happened. It was a code from Christians in Rome to friends in Judea that Rome was planning on sacking Jerusalem. It happened, in 90 AD, right on schedule.

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apnu

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Wed May-12-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #61

71. well... its not something I follow...

... but I'll take your word for it. Either way, I don't think there ever was/is/will be an Armageddon.

Its a funny thought "Now either there is a very very old and angry apostle running around out there or someone goofed." Made me think of Life of Brian

LOL!

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Taverner

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Wed May-12-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #55

65. In short: Because they don't follow Jesus

As a Christian and a Jew who has studied both...the neocon end timers have so little to do with Christianity, and so much more to do with 19th century Millineal Dispensationalism.

If you've ever been to a fundie bible study (I have, wish I hadn't tho) they don't study it like Jews read the Torah. They take out specific verses, throw them completely out of context and wrap them to match a belief that was not intended by the original writers.

They will say "Let's study these three sentences, and not the whole book." They really discourage reading the bible as a whole, without a guide to help them "understand" it.

They are a cult, and they are winning.

G-d save us all before we'll be forced to drink their kool-aid.

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ThoughtCriminal

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Wed May-12-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #51

64. And it's all base 10

You'd figure God would use something a bit more pure.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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apnu

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Wed May-12-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #64

72. LOL n/t

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Unperson 309

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Wed May-12-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #7

58. The Chief Sign In Israel

would be the rebuilding of the Temple.

For Millennialists, the sign they are watching for is when the Israeli state tears down the Dome and rebuilds the Great Temple on that spot. That wilkl be the definitive sign that the End Times are upon us (right!)

Various signs are said to have come, such as the attempted murder of Pope John Paul II and/or Ronald Reagan (One of the heads of the Beast bears a great wound)

Other "signs" mentioned include Reagan's name being six letters each, first, middle and last Ronald = 6 Wilson = 6 Reagan = 6, the Prophecies of Fatima (the final one having been released and corresponding to the attempted murder of the Pope), the fact that the Nostradamus prophecies end shortly after 2000, ditto the supposed list of all the Popes, etc...

Strangely enough, also, the Inca calendars end soon as do several other cultures' perpetual calendars. Add to that the birth of the albino buffalo calf in Wyoming (IIRC) which freaked out the lakota and you have a very strange brew indeed.

309

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Bake

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Wed May-12-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #58

69. Tearing down the Dome might do it ...

At least as far as causing the rest of the Middle East to rise up as one and smite Israel mightily! Maybe not Armageddon, but one helluva war.

Bake

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SpiralHawk

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Wed May-12-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #58

81. The buffalo calf was plainly white, not albino

The first White Calf, Miracle, was born August 20, 1993 in Janesville, WI - not in Wyoming. Since then about a dozen more white calves have come -- a whole herd of Pte San Wi.

None of the calves have "freaked out" the Lakota or any other Native groups. Rather, the births (and what they signify) have heartened and encouraged the people in many postive ways -- just as the old teachings said they would.

Here's one link on the theme
http://www.chiron-communications.com/communique%207-7.html

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Unperson 309

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Wed May-12-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #81

82. Sorry. I Meant That in the Nicest Possible Way! :)

You are, of course, correct. White is not albino, though it can be. I hadn't heard about the herd. And by 'freaked out' I meant to say it in a delighted way.

As in "Wow, when she said yes, she would marry him, he freaked out."

I'm wasichu, unfortunately, and if I step on toes, I'm sorry...

Friends? :)

309

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Tyler Durden

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Wed May-12-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #1

10. I have.

There are whole congregations here in Michigan that spend their time BEGGING God to end the world TODAY. RIGHT NOW.

Don't kid yourself. The immense popularity of "Left Behind" is proof positive that there are likely 100's of thousands if not a couple of million US Citizens who would JOYFULLY push the "button" if George let them, just to precipitate "The Rapture."

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elfwitch

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Wed May-12-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #10

13. "The Rapture"

Exactly. Like the folks with the: In case of Rapture this car will be unmanned bumper stickers.

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Tyler Durden

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Wed May-12-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #13

17. I hope for the Rapture...

...to remove these ASSHOLES from earth and quit FUCKING IT UP FOR THE REST OF US.

Wouldn't it be NICE?

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elfwitch

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Wed May-12-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #17

18. If it would just reduce traffic...

it might be a better place to live.
It would clear out half of the traffic problems in the DFW metroplex alone.

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Tyler Durden

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Wed May-12-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #18

26. Or make for some GREAT "IMPACT" shows on the Learning Channel.

"Now here's a really TERRIBLE driver....OOPS! Sorry! No one in that car, have to blame another one on 'The Rapture'!"

Hey, this keeps sounding BETTER all the time. I'm going to start carrying my Video Camera in my CAR!

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Solomon

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Wed May-12-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #26

87. You all assume that if the rapture happened, all the assholes would

be taken away. Hate to break it to you, but americans are hypocrits and none of the bastards would be taken. So stop wishing for the rapture. :evilgrin:

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libhill

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Wed May-12-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #17

75. Amen brotha

do a hear a fukkin` hallelujah? Very well put!

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Unperson 309

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Wed May-12-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #13

60. I like the one...

The bumpersticker I saw a while back:

"In case of the RAPTURE... Can I have your car?"

heeheehee

309

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Seeking Serenity

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Wed May-12-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #13

88. I've seen those on cars racing down the highway

and I always think, "You better keep your ass in that car, at least until I can pass you safely."

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minkyboodle

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Wed May-12-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #10

90. this is true

the whole thing has turned into some kind of weird TV Movie for them. They will basically do anything to make their believed rapture happen because they are obsessed with the idea that they will actually take part in it. Strange days indeed.
Scott

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leftofthedial

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Wed May-12-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #1

11. I heard Pat Robertson say it on the 700 Club

when he was running for President

He said it was his duty as a Christian to bring about Armageddon and that was why he was running for President.

(I used to watch fundies on TV for sport in the wee hours of the morning.)

I have heard fundies advocate it. A fundie engineer at work supported Bush because of this and because of the engineer's anti-choice zealotry.

A neighbor fundie told me she prays for it every day.

I think it is a very common fundie belief and desire.

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jokerman93

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Wed May-12-04 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #11

85. Help - Links on Pat Robertson Statements?

Edited on Wed May-12-04 07:54 PM by jokerman2004

Do you have any link or documentation on that statement? I have urgent need to show it to a family member who is currently contracted directly by Robertson. I need to try to make him see what kind of people he is selling his considerable talents to.

Please help.

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leftofthedial

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Wed May-12-04 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #85

86. sorry. This was 1988

I don't know if anything that old would exist on the web.

It was on a broadcast of his TV show (700 club I believe) during the Presidential campaign of 1988.

That IS the kind of f*cked up person he is.

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jokerman93

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Wed May-12-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #86

91. Thanks for the reply

My brother insisted that Robertson isn't in the LeHaye/Rapture kool-aid camp. I need some ammo. He thinks I'm an alarmist. Of course he's making huge bucks -- so it's got be good. I'll keep looking.

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leftofthedial

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Thu May-13-04 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #91

93. I don't know about the Rapture stuff

Edited on Thu May-13-04 09:57 AM by leftofthedial

(I long ago lost the humor take on their tripe and intolerance)

but he is devoted to Armageddon

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amazona

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Wed May-12-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #1

27. i've had people tell me to my face they were praying for the end times

Not just once but many times.

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Solomon

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Wed May-12-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #27

78. My family has been praying and hoping for the end for quite a while

now. Everybook that predicted the end caused excitement. Then as the year 2000 approached, they were in a fever pitch about it being the end. They read the Left Behind shit.

I believe the reason they pray for the end is for two main reasons:

1. They are convinced they are saved and they want all their friends to see it.

2. They don't want to die like everyone else in history has. They want to go straight to rapture without taking the old coffin trip.

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ChickMagic

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Wed May-12-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1

32. Security at the Dome of the Rock

I read somewhere a long time ago that the mosque that sits on Temple Mount has to have extraordinary security because of all the fundy whack jobs trying to blow it up. That's apparently part of the prophecy - that Solomon's Temple will be rebuilt where it used to stand. In order for that to happen the mosque has to go away.

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DarkPhenyx

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Wed May-12-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #1

37. There is a cattle rancher with an operation in Israel...

...trying to breed the "pure red bull". This is supposedly something that has to happen before the end days can come. There are others who support the existance of Israel, and it's holding of all lands, because that is also necessary for the second coming.

These butt-munches are out there. Trust me.

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progressivebydesign

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Wed May-12-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #1

44. You must not be reading much lately..

..there have been volumes written lately about the Christian fundies and evangelicals pouring millions into Jewish causes and into Israel to help bring about the end times.. In their screwed up thinking, they think that if they can get Israel settled back into the holy land, Jesus will come back. They care no more for the Jewish people than they did before, but they serve a purpose in their sick thinking.

That horrid LaHaye person who wrote the staggeringly bad books about being "left behind", started the ball rolling on this end times thinking. He is a long time conservative, politcal hack.. with a fundie Christian agenda. Has anyone questions why the most evil person in his end times scenario looks just like Bill Clinton? And. the UN and public school teachers and schools are evil in the story?

You need to do some research on this, if you are first hearing of this push to rapture. It's a mass hysteria, fueled by the polticians of the right, the mega-million dollar churches, and the effects of 9/11.

My feeling is.. based upon their take on the rapture.. I'd certainly go to Hell.. even though I'm a good person by what used to be Christian standards... So, I figure I'd rather be in Hell with Ghandi, etc.. than to be in those people's idea of Heaven.

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gasperc

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Wed May-12-04 01:13 PM
Response to Original message

2. their marriages are hell, their kids are unbearable

the've fucking had and are desperate for it to come to an end.

sarcastic post

:)

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Bake

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Wed May-12-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #2

67. Meat Loaf!

So now I'm praying for the end of time
To hurry up and arrive
'Cause if I have to spend another minute with you
I don't think that I can really survive

Prayin' for the end of time ...
So I can end my time with you.

--Paradise by the Dashboard Light.

HAHAHAHAHA!

Bake

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fertilizeonarbusto

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Wed May-12-04 01:13 PM
Response to Original message

3. As you pointed out

you are Jewish, a religion which sensibly eschews discussion of an unknowable afterlife. However, Christianity is founded on the promise of avoiding death and living forever. That eternal consciousness is a nightmare to anyone with the slightest bit of imagination is lost on Christians too busy being afraid of their precious ego not existing and being ungrateful to God for the life they were given, which they are wasting wishing for more even before this one is over. So, they want this world to end so they can get on with the business of living for all eternity. All of it.

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leftofthedial

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Wed May-12-04 01:13 PM
Response to Original message

4. they are irrational

by definition

they believe in things the existence of which can not be independently verified, that is, they are delusional.

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dedhed

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Wed May-12-04 01:15 PM
Response to Original message

6. They want front-row seats for the big show

Let's just assume for a moment that those of them that are trying to hasten the end of the world honestly believe that they will get to go to heaven.

It's not that they'll go to heaven at the end of the world. They expect to go there as soon as they die, even if the cause of death is not being trampled by one of the Four Horsemen. And they're not interested in making earth into Heaven, Hell, or anything in between.

They want to hasten the end of the world so they can personally witness Christ's triumphant return... and then die.

Frankly, I subscribe to Robin Williams' prediction. If Christ ever does return, he'll look like Ted Nugent, and boy will he be pissed!

:bounce:

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DarkPhenyx

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Wed May-12-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #6

47. And he won't be a carpenter this time either! No, no.

He's gonna be a sheet metal worker from Queens. *sha-boom* "That's right, it's me, I'm back and I'm God Damn Pissed Off! First person I want to see is Jerry Falwell! Get his ass down here RIGHT NOW!"

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el_gato

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Wed May-12-04 01:16 PM
Response to Original message

9. I think the heaven concept

is used as a way to justify misery in this life

the basic idea is "don't work to change anything,
don't question who is in control, just take heart
in the idea that one day you'll live blissfully
in heaven"

thus the intentionally impovrished can embrace
their misery and the fundies, as a result,
look forward to the apocalypse

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elfwitch

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Wed May-12-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #9

15. That was the method used to mollify slaves...

Think about how many generations of oppressed people were given Christianity to suppress their desire for uprising. Sure Mister Slave, your life sucks now, but because we made you a Christian, you will be forever rewarded in Heaven.

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Tyler Durden

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Wed May-12-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #9

16. That is that "Opiate of the Masses" thingey.

Marx had that one nailed pretty good: the aristo's tell you to be good and you'll go to heaven. WHAT A GREAT SCAM!

I WANNA BE WI' JEZUS!
I WANNA BE WI' CRIZE!
I KIN BE WI' JEZUS,
IF I ACT REAL NIZE!

from "Hannibal," the book, that is.

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brokensymmetry

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Wed May-12-04 01:18 PM
Response to Original message

12. Ahh, but think of the benefits!

You get to crank the credit cards - forget paying them back!

No more paperwork! No more forms!

And, since Heaven is guaranteed, you can anticipate the ultimate 24 hour buffet (with sundae bar included!)

Yes, I'm being sarcastic....

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no_hypocrisy

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Wed May-12-04 01:20 PM
Response to Original message

14. I have a couple of theories:

Edited on Wed May-12-04 01:22 PM by no_hypocrisy

Let's say the fundies led a good and moral life as dictated in their Bible, they would theoretically go to Heaven no matter what. They wouldn't have to encourage the End Times to get there. They've got their reservations. So I figure, they must want to be on the ground floor of the End Times for these rationales:

1. "I got mine." That is, they have the satisfaction of going to Heaven with the added bonus of a special place of experiencing the Rapture. Sort of like Platinum Mastercard. And they believe the rest of the non-believers are going to suffer because they refused to embrace Scripture -- or more likely, they didn't take the Fundies seriously. So, they win and we lose and they like that.

2. They're worried about THEM, not the rest of us. So, even if the Earth is unlivable, it's our tough luck. They don't care. They'll be in Heaven and it won't be their problem.

3. In their world, instigating Armaggedon is like investing in an IPO with Warren Buffet. You can't lose. If you're a believer, you're safe. Nothing bad will happen to you. And there's the satisfaction that you made biblical profecy into reality. You're doing the ultimate God's work. (Please remember, this isn't my idea of a good time; it's theirs.)

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rkc3

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Wed May-12-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #14

24. If they're in such a hurry...

I've got two words for them - Smith & Wesson. Put the barrel in the mouth and pull the trigger. It's simple, no mess (for them) to clean up, and they're on their way to the homeland.

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Mountainman

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Wed May-12-04 01:24 PM
Response to Original message

19. "If you spend you entire life miserable or wallowing in the misery"

That's the reason I rejected the god I was taught to follow. The god that want you to suffer on earth so you can get a higher place in heaven.

I went through a period of throwing out all the spiritual and philosophical things I was taught and went about replacing them with thoughts that I discovered after that.

My being Vietnam had a lot to do with that. I now find paganism to be more the way I think and believe. I don't believe my god/goddess wants me to be miserable. I don't believe in heaven or hell.

What is going on in Iraq and all the hate in this country is always justified in some way by religious people. We can't see cruelty as cruelty no matter what side perpetrates it?

Why do I have to take a side in this war on terrorism? I don't. I don't see it as a war but as a act by unenlightened people.

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CrownPrinceBandar

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Wed May-12-04 01:26 PM
Response to Original message

21. To be honest..........

Edited on Wed May-12-04 01:28 PM by foamdad

I don't think they are hastening the "end of days." If it were so, IMHO, the whole shootin match would have been over and done by now. There have been so many scenarios coming out of the ME that would fit the biblical mold of Armageddon. Its just that Americans are involved now and the situation is closer to home.

I think its more correct to say that they are just glomming onto this current conflict as a "rapture scenario." I think it speaks to how miserable some people are that they are hoping that the end of the world is coming and that God is coming to collect them. Its like you said, if you're so miserable and are ready to be extracted from this Hell that we have constructed on earth, why not see the current shitstorm as a sign?

Also, some Christians have not moved from the 2,000 year old gospels. They don't see the lessons of the Bible as being mutable or capable of changing as society moves. Even though I am an atheist, I can see valuable lessons in the Bible (and the Torah, the Koran, etc...), but if folks want to live two millenia in the past, see scripture as the final word, and if global situations fit a prescribed mold of ultimate doom, why not bring on eternal paradise (for those who qualify).

I'm no religious expert, just my $0.02.

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apnu

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Wed May-12-04 01:26 PM
Response to Original message

22. good questions...

Edited on Wed May-12-04 02:22 PM by apnu

... I don't know why the fundie rushes off to die. I think it might have something to do with the fundie's use of Christianity -- its a worship of torture, pain and humiliation. Look at the symbol! Its an instrument of torture and execution.

There are some that believe that "hell on earth" will bring about Armageddon, or at least start it. And Armageddon is wanted because they (might) feel that life is a sorry existence and to get it over with as quick as possible. And if "hell on earth" is a sign of the end times, then (they might think) why not bring it about faster? (or so the thought goes)

Its weird logic, I know. Akin to eating your veggies first and fast so you can get to the rest of the dinner you actually like. Or something like that.

Personally, I find all this laughable. For a number of reasons:

1.
If there is a God, and if that God has a plan, then there is little we maggots can do about it. Armageddon will occur when God wills it, not when some loony with a Bible says so.

2.
I don't share your faith, elfwitch, I don't think there is anything out there but light, time, and gravity. When I get down about things, I start thinking about the distances between the planets in our Solar System. The moon, for example, is 1/4 of a million miles away -- that's a long walk! Terra is just a small pebble in a tiny System on the edge of a plain non-descript spiral galaxy who's members (the galaxies that is) count in the thousands.

When your mind is sitting so far out in space that you can literally see thousands of galaxies at once, suddenly fundies don't seem so important.

God or not, Armageddon or not -- Terra doesn't matter one damn bit once you leave Lunar orbit from our sorry, polluted, watery rock. We live, we die -- more are born, they live and they die. Its an endless cycle.

All of which begs the question; then why bother? My answer to that is, if it is true that 'we don't matter', then what matters is what we do with our time here and now. Lead a good life, and be cool and just to all of those around you. Our time is short so we best to what we can in our little nano-seconds of life. And I say nano-seconds because our Sun is about 7 million years old, compare 7,000,000 years to an average life span for homo sapiens of 80 years.

(on edit: typos that I can never catch while typing)

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SpaceCatMeetsMars

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Wed May-12-04 01:28 PM
Response to Original message

25. I have noticed that

there is a punishing attitude in the Fundamentalists I have known. (My mother and brother-in-law and sister-in-law and also some members of my husband's extended family.) They will tell you the "truth" that you need to know in a firm and what is, to them, a loving manner. If you reject that "truth" then you will be punished by God and deserve it. They will feel sorry for you, but it is your fault because you are filled with "hate" and do not understand the "love" that they are filled with.

I have seen them take the same attitude toward Jews and Israel. They will tell you that they fully support Israel, and they do, but they "know" that God will save some of the Jews and destroy the rest.

I have wondered why they take such a grim and bleak view of everything and cause so much division with loved ones. I think it is projection and self-hatred at the root of it. Fanatics don't enjoy life, they don't like any small pleasures, they are bored, and they are waiting for the great drama where those that didn't listen to them will be punsihed and their fanatical beliefs will finally be proven to be right.

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liberalitch

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Wed May-12-04 01:32 PM
Response to Original message

29. Dunno, Dogg!

they need to stop worrying though.... it's like xmas (or Hannukah..sp) it's coming ready or not.

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buddhamama

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Wed May-12-04 01:33 PM
Response to Original message

30. cause they're miserable beings

who live in a state of 'victimhood' and persecution
and they cannot wait for revenge to be leveled on
their persecutors.
they're weak of spirit and mind and seek to be made strong by the deliverence.

*of course this is just my opinion.*

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Killarney

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Wed May-12-04 01:34 PM
Response to Original message

31. To prove they were right and give their life meaning.

:eyes:

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ret5hd

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Wed May-12-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #31

41. exactly...

because of their own internal doubts, there would be nothing more satisfying than to be proved correct and all those heathens proved wrong.

if they didn't have those internal doubts, they would quietly and kindly go about the business of 'doing unto others...'

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blm

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Wed May-12-04 01:39 PM
Response to Original message

34. Read this letter to the editor

submitted before the 2002 election.

I think more of us should send letters like this voicing our concerns.

A recent Time article focused on U.S. fundamentalists who were pleased about Sept.11, 2001, and saw it as a fulfillment of prophecy, a sign the Lord would soon come again. The turmoil in the Mideast is also welcome, in that Israel will be destroyed and the Jewish people will accept Jesus at long last.

I was left with some questions that should be troubling to any voter and answered by all political candidates.

Why should any voter entrust the future of his children and grandchildren, or the health of the Earth's resources, to any politician who is expectant of and looking forward to a scenario that raptures the believers and leaves those left behind to the horrors of an Armageddon? Who would give stewardship of their most precious world to those who believe prophecies that they themselves can fulfill with their political decisions and powers?

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riverwalker

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Wed May-12-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #34

50. a peek into their minds (shudder)

I've been to the ruins at Magido, it's an ancient crossroads and site of many ancient battles. Where they think "armageddon" will occur. Some fundies there were enthralled that this was where "IT" would happen. All I could think of was this picture in my mind of Jesus leading an army and storming Jerusalem, riding in a tank, sort of like the Mike Dukakis photo. :crazy: They really believe this.

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riverwalker

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Wed May-12-04 01:40 PM
Response to Original message

36. The God we see is a reflection of us

So in their case, he is psychotic, immature, vengeful, unstable, insecure, jealous. The drunken step-dad in the sky. To believe that he created this incredibly beautiful and diverse planet with a garden of cultures and people, just to destroy it in a celestial temper tantrum.....is nutz. This "armageddon" business is very new in Christianity, although they try to pretend it isn't.
America has only been around 230 years, compared to cultures and religions that have been around for thousands of years. The fundie's distortion of "religion" is just as immature and simple minded.

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apnu

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Wed May-12-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #36

49. good points riverwalker...

... perspective, it's all about perspective. That is a commodity in rather short supply in our American culture.

We are a funny people, we seem to think (well the body politic that is) that the world was born at the genesis of our nation. We think, laughably, that we have a rich history and longevity. Our great marks on our culture, buildings that is, have only been around for barley 100 years in most cases. And we gleefully destroy our historical edifices in the name of progress and "more". (Check out the essay The More Factor by Laurence Shames. Remember, the hight point of Rome only lasted about 300 years, and then a horrible rotting decline.

The rest of the planet's cultures have been around long enough to have seen several ups and downs for them respectively. They know how things come and go, how things bob and wave like the oceans, they know their size and place in the world. Its a lesson that American culture hasn't learned, and when the time comes, it will be a bitter pill to swallow.

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DU GrovelBot

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Kitsune

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Wed May-12-04 01:43 PM
Response to Original message

40. Every fundie should have to watch End of Evangelion.

That'll change their minds about rooting for the Rapture.

Either that or their heads will explode. :evilgrin:

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lapislzi

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Wed May-12-04 01:45 PM
Response to Original message

42. This world is just a walk-through

They *know* their reward will come in the next.

It also goes to pre-milleniallism. Jesus has to return, and only then will the prophecy for 1,000 years of peace be fulfilled. There is some very close reading coupled with fast-and-loose interpretation of the Book of Revelation that leads evangelicals to this conclusion. It is also a fairly young concept (100 years old or less).

That is my admittedly very simple understanding of it.

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stopthegop

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Wed May-12-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #42

48. much more than 100 years old...mentioned in Paul's letters..

not new

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lapislzi

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Wed May-12-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #48

73. I know millenniallism itself is not a new concept

but the current push towards pre-millenniallism and the whole end-times thing is not only unique to American Protestantism, it is concurrent with the development of late 19th and early 20th century evangelism.

On the other hand, you can interpret it as a cyclical historical phenomenon. Believing that the end is at hand is not a new concept at all, either.

However, current circumstances tend to play into the hands of the millennialists, especially Israel.

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Sapphocrat

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Wed May-12-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #73

80. Bingo

Also from the essay I cite (buried way down in this thread):

Throughout most of church history, this passage was associated with the final judgment, but beginning sometime around 1830 in England, it was linked to the premillennial, pretribulational Rapture � a word that is not found in the Greek text or in any English translation of the New Testament. Its Latin root word is in Jerome�s Vulgate, a translation of the Greek "harpazo" � seize, catch, or pluck.

This outlook on the earthly future became increasingly popular among fundamentalists, beginning in the 1870's. It was formalized in the footnotes of the Scofield Reference Bible (1909; revised, 1917). ...

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madrchsod

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Wed May-12-04 01:46 PM
Response to Original message

43. they don`t want to

miss out scenic lake front property....actually they are afraid of living in a world they cannot understand nor controll...

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QC

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Wed May-12-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message

53. They see it as the culmination of history. Simple enough. n/t

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Az

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Wed May-12-04 02:20 PM
Response to Original message

57. Inversion by means of social indoctrination

There are some key issues that make various aspects of Christianity dangerous. These issues are not always viewed the same in the various sects of Christianity but they are expressed to varying degrees in each.

The soul: A belief that who you are. Your identity is something seperate from your body.

Heaven: A belief that if you abide by certain rules and doctrine your soul will enjoy an eternity in a wonderful place. If you do not abide by these rules you go to a very bad place for eternity. In a nut shell play by the rules and what happens after you die is superior to what happens before you die.

Dogmatic Authority: The idea that right and wrong. Good and Evil (note the caps) all come from a singular source and that source is god alone.

These 3 aspects can combine together to create a mindset that effectively twists morality on its head. Seperating the identity of a person from their body opens to possibility of harming the body to save the soul. This opening is exasterbated by the doctrine that if you do not accept certain teachings in this life you will suffer for eternity in the next life. Anyone with any amount of concern or love for their fellow humans will be forced to try to save someone from this torment. If met with someone that cannot be swayed the matter of corruption of your own loved ones at their teachings becomes a very serious issue.

Instead of focusing on building a heaven here on earth by finding ways to get along with their fellow humans they strive to snuff out any opposition to their doctrine. Believing it to be not only evil but corruptive to those around them. Instead of working to figure out how to get along with these other beliefs they strive to smother and silence them. They create chaos and strife instead of building towars peace. And they do it in the name of love and peace. Which they honestly believe they are pursuing.

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ThoughtCriminal

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Wed May-12-04 02:46 PM
Response to Original message

62. Fundy Christianity in the USA is a Doomsday Cult

Based on very poor interpretation of questionable scripture. Meanwhile, the actual teachings of Jesus are conveniently ignored. Satan could not have designed a more ingenious plan.

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enki23

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Wed May-12-04 02:49 PM
Response to Original message

63. they want to see the end of days, and jesus come back...

because it's the only thing that would actually confirm their asinine "beliefs."

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struggle4progress

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Wed May-12-04 02:58 PM
Response to Original message

68. I think only a limited number of "Christians" hold these bizarre views

though I really am concerned about an organized Armageddon lobby.

Still, there have probably been cultists who held such idiotic views throughout history, and I wonder if the passage in Amos

"Fools who long for the Day of the Lord, what will the Day of the Lord mean to you? It will be darkness, not light. It will be as when a man runs from a lion, and a bear meets him, or turns into a house and leans his hand on the wall, and a snake bites him."

is a rebuke of something like this.

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lapislzi

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Thu May-13-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #68

94. Tim LaHaye has the ear of bush

LaHaye is a dangerous kook, imo, and he has moved his brand of fringe radicalism right into the oval office.

He makes Billy Graham look like a communist.

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libhill

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Wed May-12-04 04:02 PM
Response to Original message

74. Amen to that -

And that`s exactly why I am no longer a Christian. Alot of the "end times" Armegeddon crap comes from the Book of Revelations in the New Testament,allegedly written by St. John while in exile on the island of Patmos. Many skeptics chalk Revelations up to the demented ravings of a madman. I would tend to agree.

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PATRICK

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Wed May-12-04 04:14 PM
Response to Original message

77. the mindset

Edited on Wed May-12-04 04:16 PM by PATRICK

I will skip the main attraction that spectacular wonder fantasy has for some people and get a little more inside. I think it stems from people absolutely taken by a simple and absolute world view looking around and seeing they are a minority and that the others are not evil, crazy or insane. They need more affirmation in a world that besieges them with a larger, inescapable and fluid reality.

If you can't win you throw up the board, but in this case pretend that God is doing it for you with justification. When God does not, that is when this desperate need becomes truly dangerous. They sidle over to becoming the Angel of Death that never arrives, shooting out their voices like the Trumpet that never sounds, "fulfilling" prophecies that would never be fulfilled otherwise.

People secure and rational in their faith, people who can accept reality and the dangers of the natural universe without expecting a personal God like a bottomless checking account, would never be so fantastical even if a subset of their beliefs was apocalyptic millennialism. This is in root a lack of faith clearly criticized from the earliest ministry of Christ and the earliest days of the Church. These people have severe mental and psychological flaws that need to redefine and absolutize to satisfy their own shivering inner god, to wash over reality with grand fantasies and dangerous denials.

Those leading these people and working out these anti-Christian visions are of course, whether sincere or hucksters, the most dangerous of all. They set dates, initiate actions, become the Anti-Christ they supposedly fear but in fact welcome more than the Christ of the Gospels who told people in effect to mind their own business and just always be spiritually ready.

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smirkymonkey

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Wed May-12-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #77

84. Excellent analysis

the "lack of faith" part jumped out at me. Though they profess themselves the faithful, I think it is quite the opposite. They are spiritually insecure, hence the need for such fantastical beleifs.

It's also a form of spiritual immaturity, unwilling or unable to face life's realities, they bury their heads in a religion that promises them an afterlife characterized by eternal life and everlasting joy. I think it indicates a fear of death and the unknown, a denial of some sort. If they just believe in the whole package, they will never truly die.

Also, it may just be a coincidence, but every rapture ready fundie I have ever met has been a certifiable mental case. Seriously.

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Sapphocrat

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Wed May-12-04 04:49 PM
Response to Original message

79. Because...

According to pre-tribulation premillennialists, who are known as dispensationalists, Jesus will come secretly in the clouds and raise deceased Christians � and only Christians � from the dead. Immediately thereafter, every true Christian will be transported bodily into the sky, and from there to heaven: the Rapture event. The passage cited to defend this view is found in Paul�s first letter to the church at Thessolonica...

The Rapture-based escape from history is now universally believed by fundamentalists to be imminent. Generations of fundamentalists have believed that they will escape bodily death. They will be transported into the sky, like Elijah, though without benefit of chariots.

But when? That has been the great question. The answer: "Soon." But why soon? Why not a millennium from now? The psychological answer: Because men do not live that long in this millennium. The main selling point for fundamentalism�s Bible prophecies is to get insight into what is coming soon. In this case, the issue of mortality is central. As the slogan says, "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die." The doctrine of the imminent Rapture allows Christians to believe seriously that they can go to heaven without dying. Millions of Americans believe this today, just as their fathers and grandfathers believe this today.

But how can they be so sure? Because of the events of 1948. In that year, the crucial missing piece of the prophetic puzzle � the restoration of the nation of Israel � seemed to come true. Critics of the dispensational system could no longer say, "But where is Israel in all this?" The answer, at long last: "In Palestine, just in time for the Great Tribulation." ...

I highly recommend this essay -- it's short, to the point, and my all-time favorite for explaining the fundies' warped worldview:

The Unannounced Reason Behind American Fundamentalism's Support for the State of Israel by Gary North
http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/north-gary_th_01.html

Scary stuff, and a terrific eye-opener into the fundy mindset.

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Astarho

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Wed May-12-04 05:58 PM
Response to Original message

83. Because most people are miserable

Edited on Wed May-12-04 06:00 PM by Astarho

Not just the Fundies either. Why do you think we spend so much time trying to escape it? Some use drugs (most often alcohol), some use sex, some party like there's no tomorrow, and some just come home and watch reality TV about people in more adventurous situations or more exciting people (celebs). Everyone has their methods of trying to escape. The Fundies just use religion (and unfortunately try to inflict it upon the rest of us).

We've been conditioned that "this is the way it is and nothing ever changes." Included in that "way" is the fact that most of us will work our asses off all our lives and never get ahead, just try and struggle to make ends meet. Most people don't want to think about that, and use the aforementioned methods so they don't have to think about it.

"I write to escape, to escape poverty." -- Edgar Rice Burroughs

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SarahB

(1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed May-12-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #83

92. That's it!

It's their way of escape to deal with life. My husband dealt with a semi-fundie lady we know yesterday (she left the Methodist church we go to because it was too liberal, we're leaving because it's too conservative) and she was trying to argue about salvation. He said, "I don't believe in that myself." She said, "I don't know how I could live or deal with life if I didn't believe in salvation."

I guess whatever works for them in their heads. As long as foreign, domestic, and environmental policies aren't based on their philosophies, I chock it up to "whatever gets you through".

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