I've flipflopped on Berg. I now believe.

If he, say, "acidentally" croaked during a simple "interrogation" while he was "in custody," I can now see our idiots deciding to make lemonade, especially with the angry anti-war family filing a lawsuit.

Beheading a live guy means blood. Where was the blood?

And, while I angrily debunked the observation that the masked murderers were too hefty for Iraqis on the grounds that Saudis and other semites, sadly, do run to fat, I can now admit their bodies aren't unlike the well-fleshed security men guarding Bremer, for instance.

But what convinced me was the video download problem al Jazeera had.

If we know anything, we know that no lie is too small or too large or too transparently false for this administration.

they would have to go to such lengths as beheading him. My response to him was that it is like a "copycat" of Pearl, which was done by terrorists and they get to put a super, psycho face on the enemy. Despite the atrocities we committed at the prison, it is like John Stewart said, "we can't out psycho the terrorists."

you don't hear them talking about the prison abuse as much...you have people now who say the prison abuse was ok because "look what they do to us" rationale
also......if the abuse pictures caused the beheading, then it serves as justification to not release the video tapes or other pictures of abuse....some of those pictures depicting the brutalizing of children and rape of Iraqi women.....

the administration is infamous for creating distraction, creating noise to divert from the real truth.......that is why rummie went to iraq.....distraction noise

it all makes me very sick

that the prison torture is STILL front-page news.

People argue that this has changed that. It's untrue.

deeper to other motives. There seem to be so many.

I agree with Dookus because I heard Innsanity screaming yesterday that the liberal media just won't get off the "abuse" (we all know torture when we see it) scandal.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg. And, from my limited understanding of Muslims, beheading would be preferable to the humiliation endured.

Those who equate it with the "mutilation" and "hanging from a bridge," see, to forget that the mutilation and hangings came after the deaths of the individuals in a bomb explosion. They were already dead.

The old saying, "There are some fates worse than death," to me, applies.

Don't know who did this, but the enlisted men do not deserve the prison sentences. Well, maybe they do. My grandson is over there, and I would personally puke on him if he followed such orders.

UNLESS the chain of command is made clear, and there is much more hearings on the "military intelligence" link which seems to be being swept under the rug.

I am sorry that Berg was beheaded, but I believe, from my understanding of Muslims, beheading is a more honorable death than the disrespect and humiliation which came before.

it's good to use on those who accept the Berg video at face value anyway

bypassing Al Jazeera, makes establishing its provenance much more difficult.

a key one, I thought, was that the video itself could not be downloaded from the site it was announced to on 90minutes after the announcement of its existence. However, all the major networks were able to download or get a copy with in hours of its existence. Are the networks that much better at getting this type of info? Are they all sharing the same copy?

the editorial listed ALOT of other inconsistencies. I liken it to the whole anthrax thing, mysterious motives, suspects, conflicting answers and slipshod analysis.

Yes, the news organizations are better at getting this stuff. They downloaded it BEFORE they announced it, thereby beating the rush.

The site was taken down for exceeding bandwidth, as were several sites that posted it later.

white hands
white faces/eyes, noses
broad shoulders
beer bellies
very nervous


looked more like navy seals or ranger operatives - not desert living people.

It is something so mind-boggling as to be unbelievable under a normal administration.

From this administration, it's gotten to the point that if they say the sky is blue, I need someone to prove to me that it is.

Six years ago I would've been poo-pooing "conspiracy theory" with the best of them. Now the statement "From this administration, it's gotten to the point that if they say the sky is blue, I need someone to prove to me that it is" gets an unqualified :thumbsup: from me.

.

Amen, Tinoire. Something smells, and I think it emanates from Washington DC.

Those who support my current governmental regime call me names: Un-American, treasonous, traitor, communist, anti-Christ, baby-killer, tax taker (because I am on Social Security,) liar, fool, old bag who should do the taxpayers a favor and die, pinko, liberal (shiver): Their vile words are beyond anything I EVER experienced when I was a republican from any democrat, not even the Black Muslims, the Grey Panthers, or the Viet-Nam anti war proponents. I did not experience it in California, Texas, Louisiana, Florida, when I was a republican.

I left the republican party because of this vileness. I hope more will finally, eventually, prayerfully, become sickened enough at their behavior so they will also abandon this party of hatred and greed.

When one of them, on a talk show said my father could not possibly be a Christian and a Democrat, that did it for me.

When they do not recognize now, that there is, as far as I know, no litmus test for our all volunteer military that excludes democrats. When they do not realize that there are American families who have loved ones risking their lives in Iraq and other places, and so insult the families of the troops, while hypocritically claiming to support the troops. Or maybe it's just when their hatred and seeking for a one party system precludes them from acknowledging the democrats in uniform, it is a mystery and an extreme offense to me.

My father, husband, son all served in the military. My husband was a republican. All else were democrats. My grandson currently is in Iraq. If he makes it home safely, I will chain him to a wall before I will let him go back and be so disrespected. I hear he is coming home soon.

How dare these hypocrites disrespect the families of democrats in the military?

I say, Iraq. I really don't know. It might be Afghanistan. I will tell you the argument between my daughter and myself as to why I do not know where my grandson is in another post. But, as of two weeks ago, he was alive.

Chalibi and others have definate interests in this messopotamia.

Remember the scene? Shootout with Capone's boys at a remote cabin; one of the mobsters is shot dead on the front porch. Mobster trapped inside doesn't know about this, and Ness attempts to interrogate him with no success. Sean Connery's character walks outside, lifts the dead body and slams him against the window, making sure the mobster inside can see. Pretends to interrogate the guy (who's dead and obviously not talking). When he gets no "response," he blows a hole through the already-dead guy's head to scare the shit out of the mobster inside, who then sings like a canary.

Your theory seems quite plausible--if Berg didn't survive one of his various interrogations with intel, why not make "good use" of the corpse for U.S. propaganda purposes?

Wild idea? Yeah, but sadly at this point I actually do think my government is craven enough to pull something like this.

about events leading up to the boy's murder, and there are unanswered questions about the actual murder, there simply is NOT enough information currently available to allow anyone to say with any degree of certainty WHAT happened. There are several groups with the reason and the ability to commit this murder.

is the CIA saying it was this one guy. How are we suppose to believe anything the CIA say, with all the untruth that came out about he war in general.

The CIA in general, as most of the other intelligence agencies--are mightily pissed off at the neocons and this administration for misusing their legit intel, and for setting up the OSP stovepiping op to bypass them.

I'd say it's more likely it's a sinecure within the DIA, an intel agency run by Rummy and Wolfowitz within the DOD.

I agree with the sentiment that the actual film could have involved "security contractors" who are often former intelligence operatives.

One thing this tells us, though, if it was done by our guys, is that the web site they used is a front. Another thing is that the Lebanon based organization they supposedly represent is a front.

To that end, I wonder if Jordan was actually involved in some way? Could that have been a reason Abdullah changed his mind and decided to meet with the pResident after all last week?

...I'm glad it's not just me...

..Of course the Ostriches will tell you to toe the line....

I was reading over in LBN and thought of exactly that scenerio. He died during "interrogation" while in US custody, and they decided to kill two birds with one stone, so to speak. Eliminate all the nasty questions that might arise if his body was found after it was all but proven he was being held by the US. And it provided a way to whip up the masses and take the heat off the prison scandal.

Whatever the details, I think this story has far too many loose ends. What we think was seen on that video is not what really happened.

unwilling to believe that his country is capable of evil acts against it's own (and doesn't believe in "conspiracy theories" in general) called me up two nights ago saying that the whole Berg thing is just "too fishy and too convenient". When I pressed him for a theory, he said "OK, I think our guys did it- black ops, whatever...there's too much weirdness for it just to be the bad guys" I told him that I thought the whole thing stinks and is highly suspicious, but I wanted more information before coming to any conclusions. I'm beyond amazed that this friend in particular has come up with that theory on his own; he had told me * was "the real deal" after 9/11, had hung his home and car with flags and stood shoulder to shoulder with the pResident. Now he believes in LIHOP and that Berg's murder was an inside job. I wonder how many more like him are out there?

My mother, a little old lady who originally thought Bush "wasn't such a bad guy," called me up the other day and said, "Ya know, there's just something not quite right about this Nick Berg thing. I don't know what it is, but there's just something not right."

When "regular" folks -- people not obsessed with political coverage and don't spend hours everyday reading obscure newspaper articles -- begin to see something fishy, then it's probably fishy. If my mother can tell something about a news story is wrong, then there's definitely something wrong.

Seemed perfectly reasonable to me for the Iraqis to do it. I'm still shocked Hamill's alive.

And what the hell was he doing there anyway, a supposed non military, non combatant, holy innocent. How did he get to Iraq? With all the American guards at entry sites, how did he get there? With all of the American warnings, how did he get there? Hey, Burger King is hiring. But how the hell did he get there? Why the hell was he there?

And I agree. Those guys were awfully tall for Iraqis.

To the Berg family, if it really happened the way we are being told it happened, my deepest sympathies. But why the hell was he THERE? How did he get through? Who paid for his transportation fare if he "needed a job?"

I need more answers.

I don't find anything questionable about why he was there or how he got there. He was an idealistic kid who had travelled in the region before (Israel, I think), wanted to get in on the ground floor in his line of work and actually be of some help to the Iraqis. He was in favor of the war and pro-Bush, unlike his father.

His father was also involved as his business manager (probably doing the books and paperwork stuff), and there are people here in the states who knew him, had hired him, liked him and thought well of him professionally. No mystery, nothing nefarious.

This was his second trip to Iraq since late last year (November and December, returning sometime in January, IIRC). He actually did some work on the first trip, but it doesn't look like he did the 2nd trip.

He got there via Jordan (Amman). I don't remember if he went through Israel first or not. I don't see anything questionable about this either.

I personally do not believe he was a spy at all. I think he was just an idealistic, rather naive kid -- someone who was a bit of a risk taker to start with.

Much has also been made of the fact that conditions on the ground had worsened since his first trip and that he probably was unaware of that fact.

If there had been anything other than a bizarre coincidence re the Moussaoui connection, I think the FBI would have put him in custody the first time they talked to him months and months ago. They're wont to do that, you know, without charges or other due process niceties, thanks to PATRIOT.

he escapes... goes back then hears a convoy 1/2 mile away and runs to catch it. In the mean time, his captors stay at the house and wait for the soldiers to come and get them.

Where was he from 4/9 until 5/8 or 5/9 and who last saw him or had contact with him? How long had he been dead before the body was found?

The room setup - those appear to be mats to me. The color of the walls and we know there was a lot of picture taking and vidoetaping going on in the prisons that were out of control. Why won't the rest of the pictures and videotapes be released?

I know it's been analyzed by those who know much more than I, but the audio has bugged me from the first time that I saw the video and the next day I wondered if he could have started screaming during an interrogation session and that is what was dubbed onto the tape(s).

Why did he have on that orange jumpsuit? To make him an easy mark to be picked up by whomever? or because it was convenient to where he was?

Just too many things to drive me nuts.

I heard a rumor of a photoshopping of a still from that video, where Bush's head had been subbed for Zarqawi's head, so it looked like Bush was cutting off Berg's head. Anyone seen this one? Wouldn't that be illegal to make such a photoshop?

There are websites anywhere and everywhere that can tell you what to think, that can make people feel hostile, divided, hatred, contempt, deranged and appeal to those who don't think mechanically. Cause and effect. This does this? Does it do it again? Hmmmmm?

Well, I don't know. Sometimes things are consistent with sociological, psychological, political, military, and all I am getting out of these rather opinionated websites is very biased propaganda aimed at divisiveness.

We ARE all in this together, and we ALL need to use the greatest of American survival tools: the vote.

How you vote, how you work for change, how much you care, how hopeless you are, how distracted you are, how deep or shallow you are, all of them will affect our future.

I am old and ill, so my future is not so much of a challenge. But for those thinking beings of America, for those young enough, healthy enough to walk the streets, to write the letters to the editors and their congressmen, this is the time. For those who get out and risk the insults of the Republicans in the areas they control, I give my greatest respect. I give myself the same respect because I am willing to do it.

When I was a republican, I pushed two babies in a stroller and went from door to door. I put my body, my civility, my beliefs, and my children at the doorsteps of those who might disagree with me.

Until democrats understand that this is what it takes, even knowing it is much more difficult now, I only wish I could be there again, as a democrat, in a republican controlled State, risking my ability to accept and deal with the insults and the safety of my young children, for a better cause then I served at the time.

We have many more difficult issues to deal with now, I acknowledge.

Much more discourtesy and threatened jobs, threatened acceptance, threatened investigations, threatened arrest. Oh, if only I were younger!

If only I had known back in 1964 what I was espousing? But I can't go BACK. Nobody can. The time, if not now, as they say, is when? And who, if not us, as they say?

Dumpster, the rich, the corporations, the stock market investors are only a small fraction of our population. The religious right Christians, who are in control of the Republican party, and thus this regime, are only questionably in control. But the destruction of the only viable opposition party is clearly their goal. The thing is to have to deal with the nastiness, the threats, the derision, and the emotional cost to democrats. Your religious beliefs, your moral beliefs, your patriotism, your right to be an American will be challenged. In short, the willingness to survive personal humiliation with dignity. (Kind a lot of what we have seen in the news lately. Don't you agree?"

I want to quote from a book I got from the library: I define terrorism as an act or threat of violence against noncombatants with the objective of exacting revenge, INTIMIDATING, or otherwise INFLUENCING an audience. (Capitalization is mine, not the author's.)

That is one of the Definitions given by Jessica Stern in her book, The Ultimate Terrorists.

Also under "Definitions," same book, try this one: In 1989 Yonah Alexander defined terrorism as "a process of deliberate employment of psychological INTIMIDATION and physical violence by sovereign states and SUB-NATIONAL groups to attain strategic and POLITICAL objectives in violation of law." (Capitalization is mine, not the author's.}

And this, same page: Title 22 of the United States Code defines terrorism as "premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by sub-national or clandestine agents." The US Department of State appends a final phrase "usually intended to influence a target audience."

I won't quote anymore, and Jessica Stern has written a new book, which my local republican controlled library has promised to acquire. I will not hold my breath.

My ultimate point, Dumpster--and I hope you're the guy in Arizona--is this. Democrats in my State, and in other States of this Union, are going to have to be willing to endure the humiliation, to be willing to endure the challenges, the insults that what few other Americans in history have been willing to endure.

Was it Lincoln who said, "A nation divided cannot stand?"

While we still have the vote, for pete's sake, register it, visit it, include it, care about it and, above all, DO it. The alienated are dying out here. The alienated are those who are influenced to the point where they are afraid of humiliation, of loss of jobs, of the insults, of the wrong thinking that these people are the power. Voters are the power. They don't think their vote will count.

Vote! Register people. Walk if you can. Write letters if you can. With every bit of the civility given to democrats, with every bit of courage, please FIGHT! Please.

I am exhausted. But I ain't done yet. The divisiveness, the polarization is caused not by Americans, but those who seek to control America. Do not let them do this. We are all Americans, even if they don't realize it. And the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA needs to come home for all of us.

Since the parents had already lodged a suit againt Rummy, they had to do something to get the monkey off their backs. So what else to do but blame it on the "terrorists."