I encountered a soldier just back from Iraq yesterday ~ whew

He was in the local Safeway speaking to a friend of his in a very loud voice filled with one obscenity after another. Everyone in the store was gawking at him and kind of backing away out of earshot. He was bragging about all his kills and how "bad" the Army was when it came to mowing down the enemy. He was very racist and insulting and obnoxious and I felt like spitting on him. I would never do that of course but for the first time in my life I started questioning my support for our military. If this man is an Ambassador for America then it is no wonder we are hated through-out the world. We were always told when I was in the service that we were Ambassadors for America and that we represented our country so we should always be aware of how we came across to others. I am beginning to lose faith what with the prison abuse scandal and then this encounter. What the hell have we wrought?

there are 10 guys like the one who did the Dems radio address and the marine who was just interviewed here

http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/9316830p-10241546c.html

That is horrible.

10%? Don't think so.

And he is us. It's much greater than 10%, That's just the number who can't control themselves in polite company.

I have a nephew who just re upped specifically so he can go "kill towlheads" (his words, not mine).

It seems strange, he wasn't brought up that way. He's also not the first guy I've known who seems to have picked up those attitudes from the service.

My son just got served with divorce papers this month. In the words of his soon to be ex: "He was a decent sensitive guy when we married, Now he's an animal, A first class jerk." She blames the Navy for filling his mind with hate and rage. The freaking NAVY!

It's all very cult like and scary as hell.

It's a highly pervasive problem, although the pentagon doesn't see it as a problem at all. More of an asset

Given the situation, do you two still talk? Do you see the change his soon-to-be-ex has described?

Although he seems to soften a bit around his Mom. Shame perhaps?

I want to shake him violently screaming WAKE UP! but fear what would happen if he did. Dissent within the ranks can be dangerous, I don't want him to get "re-assigned" just because he expressed doubt.

We keep our meetings short and cordial these days. It's probably best.

Mostly I just pray that he gets out alive, we can de-program later.

...heard, particularly in the combat zones. Those recurring visions will never go away.

My 84-year-old Dad was in WWII, and he remembers certain scenes as if they were yesterday. The same is true of people that served in any of our conflicts, before or since. Read some first hand accounts of veterans describing what they saw and heard during the Civil War, and you will quickly realize that they suffered from the same problems.

As founder of a vets organization (small and in Ga) and the wife of a combat Vietnam Vet. he is disabled not physically but for the trauma. He is 100 percent PTSD disabled. that does not mean they are crazy. It means life has lost a lot of joy and things are not the same and nerves and rage live deep within.

When he comes home, it would not be a bad idea to get him into couseling IMMEDIATELY ! Those flashbacks and nightmares won't just go away. My husband has been out of Vietnam over 30 years and the blood curdlin screams are very very frightening. One learns to live a
controlled (by the caretaker) abnormal lifestyle. By that I mean, we don't jump up behind him, we don't make a lot of noise as it brings on migranes and causes his nerves to fray. We are used to his 1000 yard stare and him being caught between now and yesterday.
We don't tell him things that could really upset him and we have no guns here. It took me 8 years to get rid of them. I had to get used to long hospilizations and God help us when a Thundersstorm comes as he begins to tremble. Be ready for some changes.

You are a damn good woman. I found one like you and she saved my life.Life ain't so bad now. Still hate those goddamned loud noises though.

Doc
Corpsman
4th Marines 68

Techniques such as EMDR and neurotherapy have helped a lot of people. Unfortunately, the VA doesn't do much of that, tending to try to suppress symptoms with medication instead.

some supply clerk or radio repairman. In short he was a liar, more than likely.

Don't paint all soldiers with the same brush. Most of them are working class kids who enlisted out of economic need, not a desire to be sadistic.

This asswad was more than likely "in the rear with the gear" if indeed he ever even was in Iraq. My Dad spent 11 months on the front lines in Korea in '50-'51. It is hard to get him to even talk about it at all, let alone launch into a fit of loud bragging about it. If he had been in the store, he probably would have shamed this butthat into silence with very few words.

The ones who see combat are the ones who brag the least. My dad was a rear gunner on a Mitchell bomber in the Pacific. He never even told my mom much about it. I have a picture of him being given a bronze star for single handedly shooting down an enemy plane. On the back of it he wrote "Getting congratulated for killing people."

I have met several returning GI's. All of them were decent everyday type of guys. Most did not even want to talk about their experiences in Iraq. Society in general is filled with idiotic, bombastic, crude and belligerent individuals. The military is no different.

I have a "friend" who has always been an unrepentant liar. He is the type who makes up amazing stories about "you," and you turn and say, "That sounds awesome, but, dude, I never had a threesome with two sisters."

Anyway, he's been in the Army for five year and is always bragging about his exploits. We later found out that all he does is drive officers around.

Meanwhile, I have two friends who are Green Berets and never say a word about what they do.

throughout the world ...

In this young man's case, I believe he has been well-trained (brainwashed anyone?) into this type of behavior.

Just wait, soon enough, we'll have a whole country filled with those that make it out of Iraq. What will happen to them when they come home? Will they all end up like this apparent war monger?

I hope not, but my fears say that my hope is not realistic. Given what we know now about the soldiers in Iraq, it seems many of them are very unhappy. Those that are happy must be few and far between IMO. :(

That's so true. The blowback from this invasion will take us generations to recover from. This soldier is in the distinct minority, of that I have no doubt.

I saw an interview with a female soldier who just returned recently in my area. She said her whole unit came back unharmed and she hoped all the rest could come home okay too. I thought she was going to go on and on about how much good we're doing over there, blah blah blah. But nope.

She then looked very seriously into the interviewer's face and shaking her head said "We have lost control over there. Things are really bad, so all I can do is pray our men and women can come home alive."

Anyone can get a crew cut. Anyone can buy clothing that would pass for military gear in the eyes of most civilians. Anyone can brag in a loud and ugly manner.

In my experience, most vets with actual combat experience aren't loud and obnoxious about it. It's the ones WITHOUT combat experience, and expecially posers without any military experience at all, but dressed up in the garb, that are often acting as you have described.

Just my .02

The one in the green outfit ... with the "I've been to war, I've raised twins" bravado.

"Everyone in the store was gawking at him and kind of backing away out of earshot."

Racist, obnoxious blowhards like this soldier probably turn 5 people against the war for every one they impress. Obviously many in the store were not impressed.

I could see the embarrassment in his friend and she was a woman. she was very soft-spoken and seemed very uneasy.

That's the ONLY part of "Trickle-Down" that works.

As a former Vet, I too, am saddened and disgusted.

If the Imperial Family remains in power after November, we have so much farther to fall...

:-(

here's the job description for the armed forces.

- although killing is illegal, that law won't apply to you.
- we'll supply you with guns and ammo.
- we will personally escort you to the world's most violent places.
- you will not be allowed to question your orders.
- you will do as told.
- you will be with like minded people who enjoy this.
- you will be taught no other usesable skills.
- there is no racism. you can say whatever you want to whomever you want as long as they are on the other side.

What kind of person applies for this kind of job? the kind of person you met in the market.

Maybe someone who wants to get educational benefits and believes he/she won't be asked to do anything violent unless it's absolutely necessary.

Why don't you talk about something you know about?

.
.
.

While I don't disagree that your description may fit many,

I'd be careful about painting any one group with the same color brush.

Many DO join the forces for education and experience that they cannot afford otherwise, with no desire for war, or to kill or injure anyone.

Speaking of injury,

Closed mindedness doesn't help promote your website either . . .

Just a Canuk's Opinion

That mentality may be the rule in the regular military but I think those that join the Guard do so to help themselves and their own state and not to become a warrior.

...ought to sit down with a few people that have actually been in the service and talk to them about how it really is.

Better yet, ask everyone you meet for the next 48 hours whether or not they've served...you might be surprised by the caliber of some of the people that tell you "yes".

If I was to draw conclusions about you from your post, you wouldn't want to hear the answer.

nt

Well, mostly the kind of person that can't afford $30,000 a year to go to BS college for a worthless piece of paper. So they join the military. I mean what are the chances you would ever actually see combat. Well, turns out, pretty freaking good. Look at Jess Lynch, she didn't want to kill anyone, was a supply clerk for a group that worked on trucks. Man, fate is a real muther ain't it. Don't paint em all with the same brush.

The armed forces may not have -- he may have been a racist, loudmouth ass before he went in. Sure, serving may have puffed him up, made him feel like he had a right to impose his attitude on everybody else -- but there's a certain percentage of any given population that's already like this. Let's not fool ourselves the military is the only place they come from. There are plenty of 'America, love it or leave it!' loudmouth jerks who never served in the military. I see enough of them.

This is all the republicans fault. Where is the OUTRAGE!

He started more than a decade ago, sowing the seeds of hatred, and giving a nice, loud, bombastic, unopposed-for-three-prime-hours-a-day-Monday-through-Friday voice to blind, dumb hatred of all things even slightly different than him. He gave it voice. Because he was virtually unopposed, and not challenged until WAY too late (so his bile had plenty of time to sink in and fester), this mentality gained in scope, spread, and credibility. How many people do you know or have you heard of, who assume that because it's on the radio (or on the "news" or in print), it MUST be true. "They CAN'T say those things on the air if they're not true, right? Isn't that false advertising or slander or something? Therefore, it's GOT to be true! Or at least partially true, right?"

The rise of the Loud, In-Yer-Face, Confrontational, Judgmental, Mean-Spirited, Petty, Vindictive, Name-calling Character Assassins stems actually from TWO PEOPLE:

limbaugh and newt gingrich. The two of them, in their own separate ways, transformed the political landscape and the language and the tone of the discourse, and made it MEAN in the Extreme. They pushed the envelope to attract attention to themselves, and gain themselves followers, influence, power, and money. They fathered ALL OF THIS. And the atmosphere they encouraged - limbaugh on the air to the masses and gingrich in the halls of power in Congress (and eventually, his heist of the entire GOP) - paved the way for the rise of their own little bully in the year 2000.

I think this is the root of all contemporary evil. It's a two-headed root. A two-headed beast. Their effects will be felt for years.

to U.S. soldiers. I bet Charlie Graner is a BIG FAN!

It's a sad outgrowth of war and of training to kill. Most humans are not born with the capacity to kill without remorse. In World War II and the Korean War, post war analysis showed that soldiers in combat had problems shooting to kill the enemy-even when it meant saving their own life or the life of a fellow soldier. Soldiers would often shoot over their enemies heads, off to the side, etc. to avoid killing them. As you can imagine, this wasn't effective for war and led to numerous American casualties. So, the military started training soldiers to kill more efficiently during the Vietnam War. Soldiers were desensitized to killing through a range of psychological exercises and combat readiness regimes. Soldiers became much more efficient in killing, but often suffered psychological consequences afterward (hence, the rise in post traumatic stress disorder, etc., with Vietnam vets). For more information on this, see "On Killing" by Lt. Col. Grossman.

These same practices are used today in current military training. To kill, you must dehumanize the person you're killing to a certain degree. They become "targets" and "the enemy" rather than human beings. You see, war is very antithetical to what most Americans have been taught their whole lives. To be effective in the military, you've got to be able to justify killing to a certain extent-that means you've got to dehumanize the people you've been ordered to kill so that your values aren't in conflict. If they aren't human, if they aren't deserving of life, then killing them is no consequence. Hence, the military is more effective. That's why so many soldiers, like the one you saw in the supermarket, may resort to racism as a coping mechanism. That's also why several soldiers suffer post-traumatic stress disorder when they come back from combat and why many soldiers take their lives when they come home from war. It's very hard for most humans to be at peace with killing other humans. A very good friend of mine's fiance recently committed suicide upon returning from Iraq (those deaths aren't counted as casualties in the war, by the way). War is hard for most Americans to participate in. I think rather than blame the soldiers, we should feel sorry for them and look at the bigger picture which is war itself. This example is just another reason why war should be avoided at all costs. It breeds racism, hatred, and a myriad of things that should not be "American" values.

I read recently that in WWII the typical US soldier in Europe saw a total of 30 days of combat out of 365 - the rest was spent getting moved around, sitting around, etc.

In Vietnam, due to helicopters being used to drop troops in and out of combat zones, the number jumped to like 265 out of 365, which would also contribute to the increased PTSD in Vietnam vets.

(caveat - numbers are approximate due to memory)

A working class woman in Bumfuck, Idaho at a truck stop. She had been wounded and shipped home. She was very somber and melancholy and said, "You wouldn't believe how much the Iraqis hate us for what we are doing to their country."

Don't hate the player. Hate the game.

(re-post from a while back - sad to say it still is valid)


So what do we expect? The radios crackle 24/7 with talk of “freedom haters,” while The Ministers Of Information lie until their heads explode. America's Most Wanted is described as “swarthy complexioned,” and half the nation fails geography.

I’ll cut him if he stands,
and I’ll shoot him if he runs,
and I’ll kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun,
goddamn,
the rag head.

They wax poetically about “the best and the bravest”, but those of us who see the real picture cringe. We see soldiers, many ill-educated, looking at the military as the only way out. The chicken hawks squawk of jingoistic patriotism from the safety of a microphone, only to sit by and profess mock horror when the demon seed procreates. “Why, I didn’t say anything”. they say, “ I would never condone such action by our brave fighting men and women.” Let’s go now to Bill from Birmingham, who wants to talk about Iraquis who kill Americans because they hate us for our freedoms. Welcome to the show, Bill.

At the top. Karl and Karen (2/3 of KKK, for those keeping watch) spew hatred as if it were cheaper by the pound. “Gee, we never MEANT to imply that Iraq and Bin Laden were, ah, somehow connected. You must have misunderstood. Yes, that’s it, a misunderstanding. Scott, call Fox and have them blame the liberal media, please”. A little more hemlock in your tea, Ted?

What did we expect. What the fuck did we expect.

First of all, they had to convince these young people that Saddam was a part of he war on terrorism. In fact, he probably had a part in the bombing of the WTC. Of course it was all a lie. It was propaganda. And they also told them the "enemy" were not really worthy of "human" treatment. The end result is what we see.

Sighhhh, If I had a buck for every time I've heard the brainwashing thing. You folks gotta let that go. Guys that live in holes in dirt don't do propaganda. The only thing they belive in is making it to tomorrow. And maybe, maybe making it home. Honestly, thats the sole extent of their politics. I was considered a brainwashed Vietnam vet for years. Fact is, I got drafted, then I joined the Navy. Cause there are no ships in the jungle dude. And then I "thought" I found a way to work in hospitals instead of ships cause I get real seasick. So I volunteered to be a hospital corpsman. Ya know, pass out drugs at a navy hospital. Oh man, I was so smart, I really put it past my draft board. Yessiree. Uh, ya know when Marines get shot in the movies. Ya know what they call the guys that go get em? Corpsman!!! Yesiree I'm a smart one all right. Khe Sanh was lovely that time of year.

Byt the way, you're not the only Nam vet on this thread. :)

based on my experiences...many are like this

Sometimes after super high intensity training (S.H.I.T.) they have a little trouble re-integrating. I suspect he may not have seen actual combat yet, and may have been trying to conceal his fears thru an overly bravado performance.

The back away approach is good, more subtle and often more effective than confrontation. Since the driving force in most behavior modification programs is social approval, withholding said approval can be a very powerful tool.

It's one of the techniques they used to "program" the kid in the first place.

He may also have been testing the assertion that "most Americans" felt the way he was being instructed to feel.

If this guy was in the real stuff, just being in public would make him break out in a cold sweat. Having people look at him would be worse to him that pointing a gun at him. Sharing anything with a civilian would make him sick to his stomach. The real guys are mousey and shy.

the airport with two returnees from Iraq and they sounded exactly the same. And they were spouting "tin foil" theories like "Saddam killed Osama so their links would not be uncovered". Can you imagine being in a van with people like this and have to listen to them for 1 hour without being able to utter a word because the other people in the van agreed with them?

There are lots of guys in uniform, very few in actual combat. A million years ago I was a hippy kid listening to my Yardbirds albums. Its like then I woke up in Vietnam. Once you have been in a real combat situation, you don't every want to look at it, talk about it, think about it. A guy that has really been there, won't even whisper it to his wife. Not even in 35 years. This guy was just some wind bag piece of shit. The ones that really have to pull the trigger are just starting down the road of dealing with it. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Thanks for sharing your views on this. Very rarely have I known old soldiers who would be willing to share their experiences from combat. As a young platoon leader in the NG, my first platoon sergeant was a Vietnam Vet, he won a silver star while in the 25th ID. After we had worked together for a year and had become pretty close, he shared with me the story of how he got his silver star over some late-night brews. Even then, his voice was shaking as he told me the story -- it was obviously not something he went around talking about.

Your experience is typical for most combat veterans -- I agree that the kid is probably a blow-hard supply clerk. My experience has shown me that the most blowhard troops are often the supply and maintenance soldiers who have never sent a single round downrange.

Hope you realize the compliment. He must have though the world of you. Thanks for the welcome.

And have only come to realize it more so as the years since have gone by. My plt sgt was a helluva guy, he really looked after me as a butter bar.

:toast:


I myself wonder whether that blowhard actually won a CIB or was even near a combat zone. Probably a goddamm phony.


:nuke:

I've been there and know exactly what you are saying. It has only been this last couple of years that I've even mentioned Vietnam to anyone. I am just starting to come to grips. Peace on Ya.

He was saddened by what he saw there. He was upset with his commander in chief and this illegal war and so was most of his unit. He was upset by how divided the country he returned to is. He didn't kill anyone but saw people killed and knows that the majority of soldiers that have killed do not come back and brag. He did know someone that has bragged about kills and the idiot never fired his weapon once and is now in trouble with the army for this "bragging". I actually talk to this soldier every night.

When my husband calls me tonight, I won't mention this story. He hears enough about jackass soldiers and the resulting hate toward him and the other soldiers he serves with.

neither brag about it or speak happily about it once their home. That guy was probably some supply geek who wouldn't know the working end of an M16 from his ass.

I've encountered a couple people who've come back, one of which was firmly supportive of the war itself despite his experiences. But he had been in combat, and he did not speak in this way. He had that "far off" look I've heard described but had never really seen.

Tell it brother

I thank god for the internet. It allowed me to speak without seeing that look on peoples faces. Only took 30 years.

USMC Corpsman
Rockpile 68

all with different personalities and coming from various backgrounds. I would like to give all of these young men and women returning from Iraq the opportunity to decompress without attacking them for their outbursts. They have been sent into to kill under the quise of security for the US and are now being returned back into an uncaring society without the therapy they need.

We only need to look at the thousands of Vietnam vets now residing on our streets as depressed, psychotic and homeless that were unable to cope with what they had done and seen. Lost souls wandering in the wilderness.

He was bragging. If you want to know what decompressing is all about, I would suggest you read the book On Killing by LTC (ret.) Dave Grossman. Decompression was accomplished in prior conflicts not by bragging, but by enabling people who had been through common experiences to share them, talk about them, and even to cry about them together prior to re-entering society.

The problem with our Vietnam Vets was we didn't let them do this. They went over to VN alone, and came back alone. Many elements of the antiwar movement greatly failed them as well by doing the opposite of what they should have done, which was to put an arm around them and embrace them as human beings who had been through something they never should have been subjected to. It's interesting to note that those veterans who actually became involved in speaking out against the war upon their return statistically suffered fewer problems than those who did not.

This kid was not decompressing. Nobody decompresses like this. People who have been through combat never want to openly talk about it -- many WWII vets went to their graves without ever talking about what they went through with their spouses for over 50 years after they came back.

Well said,

Few months back I read an article in the Orange Co Register about Korean war vet. At his funeral his wife was approached by members of his old platoon and was told that he saved all their lives. They told her their nicknames and asked if he has ever spoken of them. She was shocked. "Only in his sleep, ive heard him bark orders to you in his sleep".

Turns out, the guy was a Marine at the Chosin Resivoir (bad as it gets, frozen hell) he saved his squad through his own actions and never spoke word one to his wife.

After the war, they bought a place at Big Bear so the kids could play in the snow. They didn't keep it very long because he wouldn't get out of the car very often. Just sat there with the heater running.

It finally made sense to his wife after all those years.

Sorry Buddy, I think the Vietnam homless thing is a huge cliche. Mostly propogated by Hollywood and the homless guys WHO ARE ALWAYS Vietnam vets (or so they say). Ever see a homeless guy who wasn't a vet? I've taken many a homeless guy home for a meal and a shower. But he's got to answer some questions first. I'll know real fast if you were really there.

I go to Washington ever few years to get regrounded. I talk to the guys who were not as lucky as me. Most of them are working and functional. Cause they are tough sons of bitches and its not in their nature to EVER give up. Its a bunch of crap that most of us came back and checked out and just coasted. I know guys that have plastic faces and eat through injection ports. But they ain't homeless, they are f-ing proud. And most of them make their own way.

Please don't think I'm flaming you. Thats kind of a nerve.

The military is lionized in this country. It's unhealthy.

The torutegate scandal is small compared to the number of innocent Iraqis we have murderred. Here is another take on our fine military.

"Another soldier, a 23-year-old Marine who returned from Iraq last fall and wishes to remain anonymous, adds, “We would defecate on and run over dead Iraqi bodies.”

Yes, we invaded Iraq just to help them and show them christaian kindness.



http://www.drudgeretort.com/discuss/viewTopic.php/13588

during the Reagan administration. Some of my friends and regulars were Vietnam vets. The country was swept up in Ronnie's America Standing Tall Again horseshit and having a storied military history suddenly carried a cachet it didn't have in previous years. Inevitably, invariably, a couple of times a month some swaggering fool would come in and sling around his lurid battlefield experiences, only to be outed, shamed, and occasionally smacked around by the vets. There's always been a lot of idiots like your Safeway chickenhawk poseur.

He would launch into one of his "when I did in the war" stories when in fact he only played a WWII soldier in movies, but never actually was in the service at all!

Except that he was in the service, but never left the homefront. True to form, though, he wasn't above lying about his combat experience even then. He penned a regularly published column called "Letters to Button Nose", purportedly letters written in the European theater to his wife Jane Wyman. He was stationed in Kansas at the time.

He wasn't in the war, but he loved to reminisce about being in it while he was president. Batty even then.

but you can't always take the boondocks out of the redneck. Some learn, some don't.

The soldier who has been up close and personal with combat don't want to talk about their experience, usually and if they have any problems, they really don't want to talk. My husband toured for several years with some of the greats in country music as a lead guitarist and then just started having all kinds of flashback and nightmare problems but no one knew what was wrong. they knew he had went to Nam..they didn't know because he never told that he was witht he 101st...attached to the Rangers and eding up hospitalized for 3 to 6 months at a time when all that guilt hit him. He is pretty much like the Korean vet. Stays to himself..doesn't like crowds and this war is bringing too much back. Too withdrawn..even more than usual. The real combat vets usually don't want to talk. Watch the movie. The War at Home. give you a real look at what some of these vets are like.

Comparing my father's and my uncle's experiences in WW II--dad was in the signal corps working with code books for his whole hitch, and he had lots of funny stories. Uncle was one of the guys who did all that island to island fighting in the Pacific (losses horrendous, survivors very lucky indeed)--none of us ever heard one single word about his actual experiences.

I wasn't there, but reading your account I was thinking about how the guy has been talking for the last year. I assume everyone over there hollers all the time and talks bad ass. (Maybe you should have whispered at him to use his "peace-time voice.")

That's not to say he wasn't a complete asshole. (reasons are not excuses)

by assaults on beaches. My Uncle John was landed on Guadalcanal and then abandoned because they couldn't be supported, the First Marines, and had to survive six months without support. He made it from there to Bouganville before getting shot. He never spoke of it. He enjoyed the hell out of Baa, Baa, Black Sheep. The only time he ever said a single word about war was his comment about how that show was 100% the real deal. :)

I remember reading a story about WWII guys who told a reporter, with anonymity, about their experiences. One old man said they were in a bind and had to get some information from a group of German soldiers and had to have it pronto due to an advance having to be made on some town or something. They wanted to know about troop strengths. They had a line of soldiers and pulled one into their tent. They asked for the information and he just sat grinning, knowing Americans weren't bestial 'like Soviets'. He took his gun and put it against the man's head and blew him away.

They carried his body outside and said, "next." That guy spilled his guts and they were successful in taking the town. He sort of sat a moment and sighed. Then he said he had never told anyone that story in fifty years. How could I tell my wife that story, he said. How could anyone understand? The vets with him just nodded.

That's what real soldiers who had been in war are like.

:(

nt

Dead on Marianne, I have always found this is best summed up by Rudyard Kipplings poem "Tommy" check it out.

...that troopie is just behaving the way he was trained to behave as a professional soldier. His attitude is indicative of why we need to seriously downsize the military -- the larger the military, the more people trained to show those behaviors.