What is it going to take for those of us on the left to unite?

I know I have brought this up many times before but I feel this issue cannot go away.

I ran across the the website of the Socialist Party USA website and they have decided to run a presidential candidate. I was a little bugged by this. It belies the fact just how the left is factionalized in this country. I was equally bugged by the fact that the two other U.S. organizations the Democratic Socialists of America and Social Democrats aren't really active political parties. You have several other left-leaning parties and organizations (Greens included!) in this country alone. I keep asking myself why on Earth don't all of us just unite? Not necessesarily creating one party though I would LOVE it if all those who consider themselves Democratic Socialists (like myself!) could just get are acts together and start a party like the New Democratic Party in Canada (NDP).I would gladly support such a party.

It is also beyond any understanding that there are two Green Parties. Wouldn't they benefit if they would both unite? I cannot help but feel that every left leaning group is so much into their own issues that they cannot bring themselves to set aside whatever differences they may have to bring a unite left bloc. We could even bring in some of those left-leaning Democrats to support this as well.

Nothing is going to get done if everybody stays in their own little clique and not listen to anybody else. This is what I am seeing and it is self-defeating and makes us weak. This is a very critical period in this country and we could lose it all if Bush gets four more years. The left is only strong if people set aside their differences and unite. To unite, we could even influence change in the Democratic Party. Get it out of the mushy middle and have it stand for something again.

I know I am just ranting but I am frustrated with the fact we left-leaners are so fractionalized and it will kill us eventually. It's time to wake up and stand for something again. Not just our pet-causes or whatever. And to those mushy middles, being on the left does not necessarily mean you are fringe, a communist, or a radical. It's about bringing government back to the people and not corporate interests. It's also bringing back caring and community without infringing on the rights of people to have a better opportunity and life.

John

As for me I'd love a United Left Party that could take the enomous energy of so many like minded folks and change the nation.

As for the Greens and the average Joe? WTF does a person who's trying to pay rent to survive have to do with recycling? NOTHING! Not that it's a bad thing but fuck! We have to capture the folks that do the working, living, and dying, not the Starbucks crowd...

You have to go after people who have no clue about what a left-leaning government could do for them and how they could benefit. You can only preach to the choir for so long. I like how the Canadian NDP has been promoting themselves. They started in the heartland of Canada so I cannot see why we could promote such a thing in the heartland here. I think any mention of "socialism" of course should be omitted. People tend to mistake that word for Communism which is unfortunate. You have to get the issues they care about in a way that is not condescending and patronizing.

John

How 'bout....... as you say, in the "heartland". Town meetings talking about Universal health care, which is a really big issue now. Have speakers who are *very* well versed in the subject, and invite not just the politicos who come to everything, but the church groups, the clubs and sports groups. Let them actually find out about some *real* issues that affect *them*.

Dunno...... maybe it's worth a try..........?

Kanary

If this bunch gets another four years this petty bullshit will be meaningless.
We are up to our necks in shit, And yes it can get worse, Much worse.
I was not a Kerry backer, But he is the nominee we had damn well better back him up.
Look at the PUKES, They know for a fact that Bush is an incompetent moron and a dumb son of a bitch to boot, But they back him anyway.
Look at the lengths they will go to in order to shut up the truth, Hell, They stole the God Dammed election people.
We must stop this bullshit, We must stop playing footsies with these fucking pukes and put them in their place, Expose them for what they are, Fucking Nazis.
Hell they just arrested one of these fucks not more than two blocks from me with explosives, Weapons and a kill list of liberals he intended to eliminate.

Fucking Wake the hell up, Before its too late.:puke:

This is why I was irked that the SPUSA decided to run their own candidates. This is not the time for being divisive. I know Kerry is not the perfect candidate and I am equally irked at the Democratic leadership for their handling of the primaries. Kerry was clearly not the best choice but that's another topic for another time. It is possibly the reason why the Socialists decided to front their own candidates and of course the reason you see Ralph Nader is running. People have got to get their shit together. It is just pathetic!


John

No more nice nice hand wringing. We have to fight fire with fire. They are tough, we gotta be tough.

Do whatever it takes to get the message out there, but get it out there!! Many people, in America, don't even realize that they are NOT voting in their OWN BEST INTEREST when they vote rightwing.

Everyone can do something--some do big things, some do smaller things.
Heck, I'd send my wheelchair bound hubby or myself (a young granny)out to stand on the street corner with a sandwich sign like those old time religious nuts about the end of the world? A sign with info and possibly warnings about the right wing. I'd walk up and down the street so every car and pedestrian could see it. It might invoke some to strike out (that's cool--I've got the time) and it might get others to actually READ something about history and about what's actually going on in this country. Just one thought.

Others could leave leaflets in various places; leaflets to websites or other info. Wear badges or buttons. "Customized" bumperstickers, hats and tees that are less antagonizing and more thought provoking about what's wrong with the right wing and other issues, maybe. Anything. Just do something.

Above all. KNOW THE ISSUES so you can have a coherent debate with someone who is asking you about your stance.

....I think what's missing is a real 21st century left-economic ideology that will better respond to the worlds economic needs.....capitalism seems to be max'ed-out to me, delievering all it's ever going to....and the 'old' socialism is a hard sell today....

Admittedly, I'm not formally educated....so there may be 'great left-of-center thinkers' out there with a grander economic model that I haven't seen....

....but, if a new left-of-center party were to be built around such a new democratic economic working model, I think the left would then have a new valuable uniting 'political product' to sell to the world....

I still feel the only antidote to capitalisn is some form of socialism....combining the best of both, would be the new ideal....

put a human face on it. It should assure people that capitalism can work but not in the current form it is in. This "trickle-down", Wealth of Nations business is nothing more than ushering Social Darwinism. People must have Universal Health Care albeit a choice, people must have some safety net if they need it. Not ncessarily a handout but a real helping hand. We have got to start strengtrhening our labor laws and workers rights again. Also convince those multinational that they have more to gain from all of this than lose. We have got start looking after those downtrodden or it is going to hurt us in a big way. There are more people that have hit the skids in the past four years. I am not saying get rid of capitalism but it must be altered to where it benefits everybody.

John

...globalissues.org that stated 'nearly three billion people live on less than two dollars a day'.....

....and does anyone disagree that the Iraq war is mainly about oil....US and the West remaining on top of the economic 'pile'....

How long will the people of the world put up with the current global economic model?....I think there is room for a new economic model and a political party that could represent it....

I don't remember if this was posted here before (I'm a former lurker), but you might want to take a look at Participatory Economics, which I found while futzing around over at Z Magazine. It's kind of heavy going, but it does a fairly good job of defining its terms for the layman.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

Cascadian, you and I probably don't agree on much. Nevertheless, you have described the first rule of politics and you get my toast for that.:toast:

Politics is all about creating alliances and coalitions. The smart political operative knows that he is not going to agree on every single point with those he is trying to unite with. He does understand that there are agenda points that all can agree upon. The goal of politics is to get elected. To do that one must establish coalitions and alliances with enough voters to form a majority. Does it mean that every member in that majority will agree on every single point. No. The trick is to find the agenda with which a majority can agree.

It's all about trying to find the common ground and still come out of it with some dignity in tact. I am sorry to say the left is failing in that catagory.

John

It seems to me there are two key themes discussed in the base post ...

The first one is the unfortunate fragmenting of the left ... for too long now, the right has successfully divided us into "archies and meatheads" ... a real joining together of academia and big labor would be a very potent force to reckon with ...

it seems far too many accept the status quo, however ... when you try to talk about the evils of capitalism and the exploitation of 99% of us by a "ruling class", people tend to get a bit glassy-eyed ... and even those who agree seem to shy away from interfering too much with "natural market forces" ... "they earned it; i don't think the government should have the right to take it away ..." they can't seem to see that their democracy is a sham when the very wealthiest are able to call the shots ...

the truth is, most of us really are in the same boat ... the problem is that not too many of us realize it ... plus, we've been very successfully divided by the right over religious and cultural issues ... "get away from me you long-haired hippy " ... Archie felt alienated by Meathead because he had different cultural values ... and that's too bad ... by joining together, they could have really changed things for working people ... so Christians disagree with non-Christians, north vs. south, women vs. men, blacks vs. whites, college vs. non-college, recent immigrant vs. non-recent immigrant, military vs. non-military, and yes, even Socialists vs. Democrats ... and the divisions go on and on ... and we're all oppressed ...

The second point made in the base post seemed to focus on voting strategies ... "Why does the Socialist Party have to run a candidate" ... the question is a good one ... and, to dismiss this as bad politics seems valid this year given the evils of the current White House occupants ... having said that, however, both major parties are totally screwing third parties ... third parties have not been given a seat at the table ... i don't think either party believes it is necessary, or wise, to make any concessions whatsoever to the views of third parties ...

In the current climate, there is no place for third parties to turn ... they are not invited into the platform discussions ... the political strategy of the major parties is to steal votes from each other by controlling the center ... this leaves those to the left of democrats and those to the right of republicans out in the cold ...

So, I have no problem looking at the bigger picture this year ... bush has got to go ... there is no alternative ... nothing beyond "anybody but bush" makes any sense ... there's too much to lose ...

but unity? it's a pipedream until those with all the power open their doors ... there's no point in blaming the far left for their actions ... beyond this election year, the blame for the disunity on the left rests squarely with the democrats ... you can't have it both ways and they've chosen the center ...

Not a presidential one anyway. I am voting Kerry with a heavy heart and will be holding my nose when I cast that vote. I wished people would get that message. If Kerry wins and he is not up to snuff then in 2008, I will vote against him, but right now things are so critical that I am going to have to swallow my pride a little.

John

could this be any clearer (from my post):

So, I have no problem looking at the bigger picture this year ... bush has got to go ... there is no alternative ... nothing beyond "anybody but bush" makes any sense ... there's too much to lose ...

and, while I might consider myself an "almost Green", I am not "holding my nose" voting for Kerry ... i am enthusiastically supporting him with both time and money ... we need to do everything in our power, with nothing held back, to get rid of bush ...

kerry is not the "lesser of the evils", he's a great force that will sweep all this evil out of the White House ... the country needs him ...

Kerry does not share my political views ... in normal times, i would not be supporting him ... but i don't view his candidacy or my support for it as "holding my nose" ... i embrace the power and competence he brings to our common struggle ...

and when this evil has been driven out, then perhaps we can squabble among ourselves over the great issues of the day ... Kerry is the ideal soldier for the battle at hand ... and no pride need be swallowed to support him ...

I think about that a lot, and that includes when I read DU. To take your question literally, I'm afraid it looks like what it's gonna take is a huge apocolypse. We just don't seem to be able to see each other as allies. Someone posts something another doesn't understand, or is from a different point of view, and right away, BAM, there's an attack or at least sarcasm. Very little effort to understand, or to try to build bridges. I've become less, rather than more, hopeful watching the interchanges here.

In the larger sense, the unity of various interest groups is crucial, and seems as far away as ever. Minority groups can't seem to support gay issues, even though in some ways they are very much linked, environmentalists can't seem to support or even want to understand poverty issues: it goes on and on.

We're cooperating quite well with the tactic of divide in order to conquer.

We've been had, and we let it happen.

Kanary

your post perfectly matches my level of pessimism based on what i've seen on DU ...

instead of viewing DU as a political forum to develop a platform that could broaden our base, we seem to attack those who don't share our views ...

driving away the Greens rather than trying to find at least some common ground with them is a curious way to go about seeking unity ... sounds a little like Nixon's "love or leave it" to me ...

but then, unity may not be the objective at all ... i'm sad to say that far too many seem to derive a sense of pride from "being right" ... they blame those who disagree as not being pragmatic ... but is their conduct pragmatic?

politics should be about earning more votes; not about driving away those who disagree ...

Instead of letting our issues and perhaps certain egos get in the way, we should all be getting it together and start kicking some butt. All this trash talk towards lefties and Greens has just got to stop. I don't want to talk about 2000 anymore. It is over. We all must work on the here and now to save our futures. I am not joking. It has just gotten so old. We must start listening to one another and talking about how we can get rid of Bushco and making this country better place and where nobody is left behind among other things.


John

Until the USa has a actual multi-party system things will always be fragmented. A bit off the topic but as a Green I was listening to the Libertarian Convention. They loath BushCo as much as we do. I can agree with their stand regarding social issues but when they extol raw unencumbered Capitalism I part ways with them. They want to away with Income Tax, Food and Drug Admin. and any Fed. or State income tax. Hey, but they loath BushCo.

Socialists are a real small number in comparison to registered Dems. I don't see the worry that they run their own candidates. Socialists mostly want to do away with Capitalism, at least Large Corp. Capitalism. There are divisions within their parties, as well. In fact, with the SP USA there was a recall vote of the Pres. candidate because for one thing he is anti-abortion.

Some people have said that it could be a good thing if BushCo remained in power because then people would really see what it is like to live in a Right Wing Dictatorship and the people would have a revolution. I don't think that would happen. Most Americans would accept it, even if their standard of living went down.

of sharing. By that I mean we all have to share in the cost of the things we can't do ourselves, like roads for instance and therefore taxes.

Minorities and blue collar whites are another area of division like what you describe. We've got to be able to show up for each other and see each other's issues as our own, or we're going to continue to be marginalized.

This is the growing problem for those of us on the Left. Just look at the right. Check out the types of people who vote together

-Libertarian Republicans who hate the idea of ANY government intrusion into our personal lives, to include the bed room.

They vote with

-Radical Right-wing Christian Republicans who believe government's role is to be in our bed rooms.


-You have "country folk" who have a tremendous skepticism and disdain for large, wealthy corporations

They vote with

-CEOs of large wealthy corporations


-You have conservatives who believe in government prudance and budget defecits are basically a sin

They vote with

-Supply siders whose main accomplishment for mankind is taking debt to an artform.

You have a very weird faction who are lock, stock and barrell voting with the Republicans every 4 years.

It's easy. We just have to listen to one another. We've done it in the past. We'll do it again. We just have to set our minds to it.

...steals the election, again. I, for one, will not tolerate a *second* coup d'etat.

Lori Price

Even the far-left is concerned with benefits, a paycheck, their home and property...

I know there are a lot of ideas and positions I would never agree with that are held by some here, like the marxists and those who think America is always the evil nation doing bad things, or those that think capitalism is no good and so on, or those that hate religion and want to seemingly ban freedom of religion, so it seems difficult to have a total uniting of all the various left factions.

But I don't think it is necessary either, that there are many on the hard left who have decided they have had enough with Bush and will vote for Kerry even if they don't like him.

After the 1984 election, their leader Gus Hall called on all party members to start voting Democrats into office. I see no reason for the hardcore left not to vote for Democrats if it helps any. However I may subscribe to socialist views but mine lean towards Democratic Socialist not Communist or Marxist-Leninist. Very different views of socialism.

I just want all of us in this hour of need to just forget what differences we have to get the neocons out of office. Not just the presidency but in Congress too. If we all came together, then it will be a victory for the American people. That is my wish and that is my hope.


John

I thought you were asking *how* we can unite.....

I guess what you're saying, going by this post, is that we all have to knuckle down and just DO IT.

Well, that's not much different than has been said here over and over and over and over.....

And it's still not winning votes.

I'll stick with the poster who said it's simple....... we all need to learn to listen again.

Kanary

Several of you have talked about the problem of civility on DU as it relates to the Greens. Those who read my posts know that I am a DLC kind of Democrat who believes in civility. I may disagree with you, but I respect you and your point of view and I am always civil.

Now on the other hand, what about attacks directed toward DLC Democrats like myself?

FDR did it best. His coalition ranged from the far left to the far right. Not all of them agreed on everything but they were willing to unite together under FDR's New Deal. Each part of the coalition got something. I'm not sure if that type of coalition can be put together again. Nevertheless, I do believe that those on the left and DLC Democrats can find areas of agreement and work toward an electoral majority.

We can all agree Bush must go but I want us to take it further and make it big. I am talking about a more visable wider coalition. I wished the citizens would pay more attention to politics and start an organization like the one they had in Serbia. They called it OTPOR. The opposition leaders were so fractionalized that it took some college students to lead the way and ultimately the opposition leaders followed OTPOR and succeeded in ousting Slobodan Milosevic. I wished we could do the same thing here.





John

....all Republicans are selling capitalism, albiet, their version....

And what are we on the left selling?.....me-too-capitalism-lite?....

Time for a new left-wing economic/political product that the people of the world can understand and buy.....uniting will follow....

The first step Republicans took to manipulate the election in Florida for 2000, even before the voter purge, was to liberalize ballot access laws. They wanted and got 10 candidate slates on the ballot for 2000. Most of the slates were leftist or left leaning.

Republicans will continue to work hard to get them all on the ballot to maximize dilution of the liberal / progressive vote. They want to make very sure that if you lean to the left and question voting for the democratic nominee in any way, that there is an alternative available on the ballot for you to spend your vote on.

I am open to working with Dems. I agree that this time we cannot afford to be splintered. I even believe that Nadar will ask his voters to vote for J. Kerry closer to the actual election. I could be incorrect but hoping I am correct. The Supreme Court better now allow BushCo absolute power.We cannot allow a Right Wing Dictatorship to become a reality!

There are many here who have distorted it's meaning for their own special interests. Instead of fighting for the civil rights and liberties of all Americans, they've picked out one particular group that they feel is special and work only for them. Those group's interests often conflict with the interests of individuals in general, and/or the real concept of liberty.

When we finally nail down ideas like justice and begin to truly fight for the rights of all Americans (even white males) instead of a select few, we will be united.

On edit: That polygamy thread in the lounge kind of set me off. I can't believe people fight for gay rights so hard here, but ignore personal autonomy completely when it comes to multiple-partner marriages simply because they think it would be something that males would enjoy.

These people don't give two shits about freedom. They're just in it for their own special interests.

Apparently the polygamy thread set you off - sounds like your mostly speaking from advocacy of legalized polygamy rather than specifically thinking of civil rights and liberties of all americans?

No, actually, I'm a card-carrying ACLU member and an attorney hopeful interested in constitutional law.

On edit: People need to be consistent. Contradictory viewpoints such as these are far to common around here, and it tells me that people aren't starting their thinking at the right place.

Not a single Republican in the House or Senate voted in favor of the five year budget plan, which ultimately led our nation to a balanced budget and the largest surpluses in history. During the filibuster against healthcare reform..only Jeffords, John Chaffee, and Bill Cohen refused to support the filibuster. The filibuster only succeeded because Republicans were able to gain the participation of Richard Shelby. Otherwise some sort of compromise bill would have passed, which would have been similar to the healthcare proposals that John Kerry is now supporting.

Republicans always stuck together on the important votes, even on the ones they lost. When Repukes took the House and Senate in 1995, the veto pen...not disloyalty within party ranks, is what stopped them from controlling the agenda!

Then Bush became President. Compromise made sense while Clinton was President and Republicans controlled Congress. And it made sense when Democrats controlled both Houses of Congress, because it was the best method to win the necessary Republican votes to pass legislation. But only unity could have enabled Democrats to stop Bush's tax cuts, they could have forced the administration to give ground on the budget, and to work with the Senate on stem cell research. Why did they fail? Simply because some Democrats felt it was no big deal if they voted for the tax cuts. There was nothing wrong with passing the IWR, "won't Bush be blamed if the war is a disaster?"

What Senators like Mary Landrui and Ben Nelsen don't understand is by not passing Bush's tax cuts, it would have been Bush not the Senate, being hurt politically. And to not pass any budget in a united Democratic Senate, Democrats would have gained some essential concessions from Bush..which they ultimately chose to surrender! Every Democrat agrees we need to win, but Democrats are not in agreement when it comes to working as a team. So why have a party?

more LIFETIME fed. judges. Almost everything else he fucks up can be fixed or indictable down the road. How's that for fear mongering??:bounce:

I got so disgusted with corporate America that I had to leave the country after the Bu$h selection. I live in Mexico now, and live very simply. A small house, totally solar power, ride my bicycle to get groceries, use less than $20 per month in gasoline, am a vegetarian, and have learned how to live on $400 a month. I pay no taxes to the US, because I will not support the war or the Bu$h government, and use almost no corporate products. Essentially, a full on protest strike and boycott. I have very little income, which I make through playing music in Cantinas, and am basically living on savings, which I was fortunate enough to be able to get together when I worked. I do not use banks, so have no credit or bank cards, have no phone, and basically no connection with the system in the US. The truth is, I made preparations to leave the US before Bu$h got selected, and unfortunately made an informed guess about that. I've been an activist, and was beaten with nightsticks at the WTO protest in Seattle, and was in Cancun in September, and sat down in front of bulldozers when I twelve years old when they came to destroy my forest.

My point here is, if you want to protest against the system, then really do it, and be effective. Make the necessary sacrifices if you really want to practice what you preach.

IMHO, voting third party this year is absolutely not an effective way to protest. After reading what I described about myself, I hope you understand that I probably believe in many of the same things that you do, and am dedicated enough to a better, saner world to do try to do my little individual part in attempting to make it better in the best, or maybe the only, way I know how. And y'all probably are, too.

I think I pretty much understand all the arguments against voting for John Kerry - the war and Patriot Act votes, DLC, too conservative, Nafta, WTO, etc. But Kerry got an Environmental Hero award from the League of Conservation voters, and he really does have a great lifetime voting record.

We must not be like the asshole Reagan Democrats who were responsible for the defeat of Jimmy Carter, who was a good man and a good President. These Reagan Democrats also voted against Walter Mondale because he was "too liberal". Those Reagan Democrats, who apparently had some weird conservative ideal, managed to fuck us all by voting into office a dangerous fascist puppet. These fool Democrats that voted for Reagan set the public mentality and the social progress of our country back for decades. We will be exactly like the Reagan Democrats, and only fuck ourselves, our families and our friends, if we vote third party and this allows Bu$h and his fascist goons to continue their assault against everything that was ever really righteous about the United States.

All of us on the left need to unite behind John Kerry. Everyone reading this knows beyond the shadow of a doubt how dangerous Bu$h and the neocons are. Sometimes compromises are necessary for the long term achievement of goals.

All of us liberals, liberal Dems, Greens, Socialists, Reform Party voters, liberal independents, etc., absolutely must insure that Bu$h is not allowed four more years.

If you think four more years of Bu$h will lead to some type of leftist resurgence, uprising, or revolution, I firmly believe you are mistaken. Bu$h and the neocons will crush you with force and propaganda, deprive you of all of your civil liberties, and force you to go underground or flee the country. I hope no one harbors a romantic fantasy that this would be fun and exciting. It would rock your world in a really harsh way.

We all know John Kerry is the only person, at this time, that can defeat Bu$h in November. It is our reality.

For this election, let's all stick together, and form a mass united front against fascism. We will have the freedom to work toward our ideals after Bu$h is gone if we maintain focus. We will not have this freedom if Bu$h remains in power.

Let's unite and kick that GD motherfucking fascist asshole and the rest of these nazi wannabes back into the slime they crawled out of.

Well, that's it.

http://www.opednews.com/michaels032604_3rd_party.htm

Someday, the left will realize that the "not as bad" party of of the DLC is just another wing of the republicans. At that time, we'll stop waltzing to their tune. Then they'll either come to us for our votes or we will finally make the long-overdue break.

When you're pushed up against the wall, the scales fall from the eyes.

Kanary

As Kerry moves right, I move left.

We got to get all the factions on the same page -- the environmentalists, the labor unions, the women's rights groups, on race, nationality, immigration...all the group -- we all have to realize that it's all about flowing power down to the people rather than up to the top and that there's more wealth and a stornger society when the people have the economic, cultural and political power.