Am I the only DU member who is a practicing Catholic?

Frankly folks I am getting tired of the almost daily criticisms of the Roman Catholic Church. There are plenty of other religous institutions that have made and continue to make mistakes and have less than perfect members. How would people like it if I started a an anti-Jewish thread., an anti-Protestant thread, an anti-Hindu thread, etc.

I too am a practicing Catholic, and have also found that anti-Christian sentiment runs pretty high on this board. You aren't alone...

I believe Catholicism runs a strong second behind atheism/agnosticism

does that count? She's an "read over-my-shoulder" DU'er though.

I was a Catholic, technically probably still am, but the Church continues to frustrate me at all levels. The love of the Roman centered monarchy has taken away from the love of Christ and God in my eyes. If the church starts caring about the poor, immigrants and the sick as much as they seem to care about casting out all those who they deem as sinners in may be more welcoming to progressive Catholics.

They need to separate themselves from politics, confess their sins and move on as a Church. In Massachusetts they are sending out scorecards of legislators, I would guess that our side (Dems) are not making out well.

It is easy to poke fun of Catholics with the abuse scandal and now playing politics with the eucharist.

It gets to me too but I am not going to stop going to church because of what others say about my religion. It is how you feel about it that is important. Don't let anyone change your mind.

is due to the fact that there is a movement within the catholic church which starts right at the top to influence american politics in a way which will negatively affect many of the issues that we at DU hold dear. And there has certainly been a lot of news out there recently on this. There are a ton of anti-protestant threads out there if you look for em (search on the word fundie for example). Not a lot of hindu stuff happening here in the good ol USA which affects the political spectrum and if you dont think there are plenty of pieces which might be construed as anti-jewish you should head on over to the Israel/Palestine forum. There is no more catholic bashing than there is of anything else on a day when the Catholic Church isn't acting particularly nasty in regards to American politics.

created by men. If you are a Catholic, it is your private decision. But if your decision influences what the country is going to do with MY rights to privacy, choice, etc. etc. I definitely do mind.
That is why the separation of Church and state exists.

I don't spend much time out of the Gungeon so I don't see many of the threads you must be referring to.

But in the event there is someone who is starting threads like that, I imagine you can really irk them by asking them why they will be voting for a catholic in 2k4.

Practicing Catholic here. For how much longer, I can't say. I love my parish and the social justice issues the Church tackles can be wonderful. I just don't get the foolishness over birth control and the recent political shit is making me angry. If it is the Church's way of telling us the next Pope will be even more conservative than this one I may have to remove myself and that will make me very sad. I am a cafeteria Catholic- believe that priests should be allowed to marry, wrongdoing by them should not be covered up, believe in gay rights ( including the right to marry) believe in a woman's right to choose to end her pregnancy. Maybe that makes me more lousy Catholic than cafeteria variety, but a Catholic is what I consider myself.

I love my parish and my monsignor but I am really struggling with the political statements some Bishops are making.

I am probably a lousy Catholic too but I still go to mass and maybe I am a lousy Catholic but I know I my social and political issues are good. I think by being a good person, I am a good catholic. Sound confusing? Maybe because that's because I am confused!

Confusion reigns here too!

earlier I was mad that the Bishops seemed to be pointing the finger at Kerry and deny him communion and Guiliani and The Groper were nowhere to be seen.

I have moments of anger with the church but then like all my other anger, I get over it. There have been times I thought about pulling my kids out of Catholic school then get over it.

I finally decided (when my oldest son took his first communion in May) that I could take communion with a good heart because the causes I believe in are *GREAT* causes and I cannot, for the life of me see God denying a good person to heavean because they are gay or had an abortion or any such nonsense as that. I love my church even though I get angry at it from time to time.

I noticed *practicing* Catholic was put in as a qualification. I am no longer a practicing Catholic as I am not a child being dragged to church by his mother any longer. I am quite resentful towards a lot of things in the church, from the bizarro sexual weirdness it tries to instill on students in school, to obscure things bishops in Europe did in the 20th century.

I actually know someone who is associated with Catholic Worker, and sometimes he almost makes me think of going back to the church and getting involved with the nicer people working for real social justice (and not the St. Vincent de Paul society). I have the same visceral reaction as I do to Pat Buchanan, I listen for a while, and start thinking, maybe I had it all wrong, this sounds OK, then I get re-acquainted and repelled again.

I was born designated an American, a wage worker (wage slave) and a Roman Catholic. I can not shed my wage slave designation at will, nor my American status without moving (to somewhere that will take me in, and where I can make a living). I do have a choice to reject my religion however, and do so.

As far as Protestant threads, I've seen plenty of threads against evangelical/fundamentalist/born-again Protestant churches, which I assume means stuff like the Pentecostal churches, the more conservatice of the Southern Baptist churches, and that sort of thing. Feel free to add one.

I know I do. You have said it very well.

After all, the laity are more likely to be liberal than their Protestant cousins. They're more likely to listen to the dictates of their consciences and the "still, small voice within" than they to follow the leadership blindly. Perhaps a lot of DU critiques are aimed at a blind and deaf hierarchy that seems to be committing the same blunder the Bush team are: that of living within their own echo chanmber and shutting themselves off from the very valid concerns expressed from without.

Alas, the church hierarchy is strictly authoritarian, and expect blind obedience from people who have been taught to listen to the dictates of their consciences. There seems to be a huge disconnect between who Catholics largely are and the church leadership who really don't have much of a clue.

Please don't misunderstand the very valid criticism of the church hierarchy for criticism of practicing Catholics or for the ancient traditions they follow. They are simply not the same.

But many of the practicing Catholics on this board are not against criticism of the institution that houses their faith. Since the church involves itself in politics, it cannot hold itself above the same criticism that is given to government and government leaders. Criticism is not necessarily "anti", you know.

I think the statements being made about the Roman Catholic Church are criticsms intended to help the Church not to denigrate it. I am a former Lutheran minister so I am an extremely liberal Augustinian Roman Catholic.

anti-Wicca, etc, threads, fwiw. I notice you're not objecting to those. :nopity:

Tolerate other religions, for without them what would we laugh at? - Discordian proverb

and now a "fallen away Catholic". So I guess I still partly consider myself CAtholic.

Considering all the masses and stuff I had in my life, obviously since I left there is a major sadness. But my active brain cells could simply not reconcile all the hypocrisy and inconsistencies. I wish I were a dumb guy, actually.

What did it for me was a stuffed shirt of a priest telling my fifth grade class that abortion was wrong and women should die giving birth rather than sacrifice the fetus because the fetus might be male. Really. I decided then and there to leave the mens' club. He did it for my mother when he gave a longwinded sermon on how the only real position for women within the church was cleaning it. He wasn't the only one. He was just the last one, for both of us.

But yes, even we totally disgusted ex Catholics will always still be Catholic to one extent or another.

(oh, and that priest was caught having an affair with one of the lay teachers in the school, left the priesthood to marry the poor woman)

I like my church, too.

Do I have disagreements with certain members of the hierarchy? Yes, of course. But do I attack my own church? Not after weighing the good and the bad.

I like the Catholic Church, despite the occasional disagreements.

You're not alone, dryan.

It's just pope-envy, pure and simple.

come out with a 100% no tolerance policy against child molestation I think people would cut them alot more slack. But the way they have handled it has been a shame. Cardinal Law now has a position in Rome?

I wish they would have a zero tolerance policy too, and what with that and the recent spate of attacks at Kerry, I'm upset at the way many American bishops have conducted themselves. People don't always realize that large as the church is, the actions of some of its clergy, priests and prelates alike, don't necessary reflect on the rest of the Curiate. (Not accusing you, just saying.)

I'm one, too. And as another poster pointed out, it usually runs high among the "What religion are you?" polls.

And as far as Catholic bashing goes, it's a target because it's so organized and centralized. And, face it, the press hasn't been good for the church lately. Finally, anti-Catholic prejudice is an openly accepted prejudice in our culture. It happens in real life, so you shouldn't be surprised that it happens on the boards.

"Hide Thread" and "Ignore Author" are useful tools if it bothers you.

with a statement against gay marriage. That was the final straw coming from a church that has allowed a child prostitution ring to continue within their own ranks if you ask me. So frankly my friend, I'm getting tired of the catholic church oppressing good citizens and good moral people while playing politics with power. Feel free to start any anti-religious thread you want, it's a free country so far. If you'd stand up for what's right and not what's catholic and tell the church you refuse to support it financially due to it's concern about politics over moral guidance, then maybe I'd have a tiny bit of respect left for the church. But so far, the fact that there are bishops who want to deny John Kerry communion because of his beliefs but allow pedophile bishops to offer communion is beside me. And that just pisses me off, and I refuse to step into a catholic church on those grounds or give them a dime to perpetuate those hypocritical positions. I guess this upsets me because I actually enjoyed being catholic when it stood for something religious, but now I just see it as a means to control a large group of people politically and oppress certain segments of society, women and gays.

This atheist thinks that liberation theology is a wonderful thing

of influence at the current time.

Eventually, I believe that it too will pass. but it may not be in my lifetime.

I love the Catholic Church as I believe it is meant to be. Carrying on the teachings of Christ is a good thing. Living, as best we can, the teachings of Christ is not only good for us, it's good for the world that God created.

But Opus Dei is a perverted idea of male authoritarianism.

I believe that God gave us reason in order to use it, so I won't submit to something that is a perversion of the teachings of Christ.

I am a practicing Catholic and actively involved in our parish outreach programs. I try to let much of the discussion here "roll off my back" much the say way I deal with the "Old Time Gospel Hour" and Thomas Road Baptist Church" that are common here. Anger and hatred are easy emotions, you have to work and love and forgiveness.

At this particular time it is the Roman Catholic church here in the US
that is attacking politicians for their pro-choice/pro-gay stand. While at the same time still gives communion to Roman Catholics that believe in the death penalty, like Jeb Bush, or those that seem to be against the church's stand on social assistance, like helping those less fortunate then yourself.

The same Bishops who are telling parishioners that they should only vote for politicians that don't question the church's doctrine, are some who looked away while priests molested children.

Perhaps you should read the reasons for the criticisms, before you launch attacks against other religious institutions.

You're right all religious groups have failings, and none is perfect,
but when the Roman Catholic church starts to sound like the Southern Baptists or Orthodox Jews, or even the Wahhabi Sect of Islam, then they should be prepared for the consequences.

The old adage "when your up to your nose in s**t, don't make waves", seems to apply regarding the Roman Catholic church at this time.
Besides if you don't like the criticism don't read the threads, sort of like of you don't like what's on TV change the channel.

Mother was Roman Catholic, father was Southern Baptist. Baptized in both religions, so I guess that makes me a Roman Baptist, or a Southern Catholic, depending on how you look at it.

Came to the conclusion that both religions were full of it, and dropped out of organized Christianity altogether when I was twelve, and have never regretted it.

I am a equal opportunity religious critic, though I actually think that the fundemental Protestant sects have a little bit of an edge on hypocrisy. At least the Catholic church is foursquare against death, ie they are against abortion and the death penalty. Most fundie Protestants are against abortion, but once you are born, hey you're fair game for the needle.

Sorry you feel that Catholocism is getting rough treatment, but in a way it is kind of a karmic thing I feel. I mean hey, their current critics are merely using words to go after the Church. A few centuries ago, the Church used knives, racks and Crusades to go after those it disliked.

But seriously, I think that it would be a good thing if the Catholic Church in America broke off from the Church in Rome. Too many Catholics in America feel constrained by the Roman opposition to abortion, birth control, etc. Also, this whole priest sexual scandal has really brought down the publics' opinion of the church in general. If an American church broke away, I think it could work out quite well, a new beginning as it were.

However, a lot of us have given up on the religious war threads--it's not worth the antacids. You will see the occassional link to Fr. Andrew Greeley's columns, tho (www.agreeley.com and there's a link to his Sun Times weekly!)

The real problem began when humans were put in charge of the Church instead of angels....and some of those humans have hurt a lot of people down the centuries.

(Think on the good folks, turn the other cheek and use the "hide threads" and "ignore" features)

practice any formal religion. My husband is Jewish and my son is being raised Jewish. I've read plenty of anti-Jewish threads on DU. Go to the Palestinian/Isreali forum...it's a blast. :eyes:

As for the Catholic Religion, the Bishops are the ones who entered the religion into the political arena...not DUers. The only threads I've seen relate to what THEY have done to John Kerry. :shrug:

My priest here in Michigan printed this letter from Bishop John F. Kinney of St. Cloud, MN, in the bulletin.

"Oh Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."

Each of us prays those words at every Mass before receiving Holy Communion. In recent months, however, some Catholics have been asking whether some others are so “not worthy” that they should be denied the sacrament. It has been suggested, for example, that bishops refuse to offer Communion to pro-choice politicians, or to legislators who favor same-sex marriage, or cloning, or stem cell research, or capital punishment, or the war in Iraq, or . . . the list seems to grow longer every day. It has also been suggested that Catholics who vote for politicians who hold certain views on these issues should not present themselves for Communion.

(snip)

You may be wondering about my position on the question of denying Communion to various categories of people. I want you to know that I refuse to allow the Eucharistic liturgy to become politicized. What I mean is that I will not allow Holy Communion to be used as a weapon in ongoing political and ideological battles. For this reason, it is not my intention to reject anyone who comes forward in a respectful manner to receive the Body and Blood of Christ.

(snip)

I return to the prayer with which I began. Note that it says, "Oh Lord, I am not worthy." It does not say, "Oh Lord, my neighbor is not worthy."

http://www.stcdio.org/bishop/bishop_easter.html

If only all bishops, priests, and believers would take it to heart this would be a better world immediately. Let me be sure to be inclusive: if ALL those who claim to follow Jesus could absorb Bishop Kinney's message ...

I'm descended from Catholics, but my parents dissented. My mother gave a great deal to thought to raising her brood as ethical and tolerant human beings, and she took a great part of her teachings from the teachings of the church she left. I never knew just how much until I was long grown.

In my life I try to distinguish between the essential messages of the various religions and the behaviors of the humans who think they have the one and only truth and will clobber anyone who disagrees; ditto those hypocrites who preach one thing and do another.

Thanks again for sharing Bishop Kinney's message; it should remind us that the few bishops who are tools of the wingnuts (and Protestant wingnuts at that) do not by any means speak for the whole of Roman Catholicism.

Hekate

for seven years, plus CCD for 2 years. This is what I learned.....

too many restrictions.

I am divorced (twice), pro-choice, for birth control, for sex-education in public school, don't mind pre-premarital sex...all things the Catholic church abhors.

I never criticize anyone because of their faith. However, I've met enough people who think their duty is to convert me to whatever they believe in (especially Southern Baptists) or to bash people of different faiths. (e.g., saying "You'll go to hell")

So, if someone preaches the Bible to me, they better be ready for confrontation.

Until the election of 2000.

At the end of Mass, our priest said something to the effect of, "Lord, please let George W. Bush be elected so we can stop the murder of innocent babies. . ." Blah, blah, blah.

I walked out of church and I've never gone back.

I don't intend to spend my Sundays sitting in on an RNC sermon.

I understand that not all parishes are overtly political. But it's getting worse. Ten years ago, there wasn't a political comment to be heard in my church. Now it's a damned fundraiser for the Republican party.

Disgusting.

and i respect the baptist religion.

i dont do religion

i want you to take back your religion, allow it to be yours to embrace in pride and love. what is being promoted in the name of your religion, is not your religions role, but......let me suggest. at the moment it is your religion that has attack the democrats. it is your religion that is saying i am unchristian, or that kerry cant have communion, it is your religion saying to be they have to vote bush.

it didnt come out of the blue all coming to attack catholicism, it is the catholics that came out and attacked us,.

so what you are suggesting is we not be bothered. they declared war. dont vote kerry or you arent christian, cant get communion. what do you have to say about your religion. is that right, is it fair, are we suppose to not oppose this

Catholic Church has overstepped its authority in meddling with the election by saying Kerry should be refused communion for being pro-choice and they should be criticized for trying to influence Catholics about a candidate who is also a Catholic.

This did not happen when John Kennedy ran for the presidency. I was alive then and I remember. The Church assured the nation then that it would not influence public policy because IT HAD NO PLACE IN TEMPORAL GOVERNMENTS.

Until the Church butts out and adopts the non-interference policy it had during the Kennedy campaign, they deserve all the criticism that is heaped on them.

But I consider myself a Joan-of-Arc Catholic. I don't need no stinkin' Pope telling me what to do--especially when it's painfully apparent that the man is dead wrong.

If you want to burn me at the stake for practicing the values I learned in parochial school, rather than blindly following Roman Catholic dogma, rituals, and personalities--go for it.

I was raised Roman Catholic and, therefore, am sufficiently educated in Roman Catholic doctrine that I can intelligently critique it. I would never deign to criticize a religion about which I know next to nothing.

signed,
Proud Independent Catholic.

I grew up Catholic, did catechism (or as we called cataclysm), and was forced against my will to be confirmed. That pretty much did it for me.

At 14 I felt that I was in no way prepared to make a delclaration of life-long commitment to the church. My priest knew that, my parents knew that, yet they all felt it was in "my best interest" to go through with becoming an adult in the church. I was told by my parents that if I just did it for them, I could explore other faiths later on in life.

So I was basically told to lie in one of the most sacred ceremonies in the church. I was told to lie to the same God that they were asking me to commit myself to. The hypocrisy of that experience left me with absolutely no desire to continue life as a Catholic.

Honestly, though, the church imposed guilt always revolted me. The biggest fights I've ever had with my parents, to this day, involved them forcing me to practice a faith I didn't believe.

What can I say? I was an uppity eight year-old.

But if it works for you, more power to you. I got out of the church because I was tired of being judged for having the gaul to think for myself. Far be it from me to judge you.

-eeyore

My family is Catholic, and I call myself that when pressed, but there is a lot about the Church that grosses me out.

By the way, hi, first post!

Dryan, do you have be a blind follower of the dogma to be considered a practicing Catholic? Any philosophy or religion that has no room to questioning is invalid. With answers to those questions you will either strengthen your belief or find that the constructs are not for you.

...I really cant call myself Catholic.

I grew up in the Church, went to parochial school, etc.

...and also read some of the more progressive Catholics, like Thomas Merton, Dorthoy Day, Greely, etc....

....so Im familiar with this more progressive or open-minded tradition within Catholic spirituality and social action, but I the Church has really lost me with thier activism directed at gays and lesbians. There really is no place for me in this particular Christian denomination, or in Christianity in general.

embarrassed Himself and America talking to the Pope the way he did. Not that he was going to get my vote in the first place, lol.

Word for word for Word.

And here on DU, we criticise the government all the time. Does this make us America-bashers?

We criticize various Dems, as well. When they deserve it. Why should crticizing Rome be off limits, when Rome does something worthy of criticism?

There are plenty of people on DU who criticize Israel, usually in the I/P forum but occasion in LBN. As a former mod, it was my experience that most DUers could tell the difference between a legitimate criticism of Sharon's policies and writing out of prejudice against Jewish people.


Frankly folks I am getting tired of the almost daily criticisms of the Roman Catholic Church. There are plenty of other religous institutions that have made and continue to make mistakes and have less than perfect members. How would people like it if I started a an anti-Jewish thread., an anti-Protestant thread, an anti-Hindu thread, etc.

Please hold dear the difference between criticizing the RC Church - which most think of as the Vatican and its power-wielders - and those people who adhere to its precepts. When you see a post that says, "anyone who follows church teachings is an idiot," feel free to hit the alert button.

but I think the Church with some of its recent stances has opened itself for controversy. Sorry if this gets me blackballed by the church and I get denied Communion on Sunday but the Pope ain't exactly infallable.

the HER... by cell phone no less.

Oh well,

Come, we go drink at Masa's

The Church has a responsibility to say what it thinks on moral or religious issues. But when it starts violating its own rules by trying to deny communion and only targeting Democrats, and being so ignorant, even on things like condoms in Africa, I just can't even tolerate it anymore.

the Catholic church on DU? Because there is a big difference between Catholic-bashing (which I haven't seen on DU) and making valid criticisms of the Church.

Remember, the church is not your faith.

I think all religions are parasitic, the Catholic Church is a protection racket for child rapists,all religions prey on the poor and illiterate, offering them false hope while bleeding them dry.

so I am a "Golden Rule-er" now.. I'll take my chances on the "hereafter".. Big organizations rife with rich old bossy men, just "don't do it for me".:)

Thanks for everyone's post. My religous faith is very important to me. But I also realize that we live in a pluralistic society and there are a great many people who don't believe in any religion. That is there choice and I respect it. I also grew up in the South where there was (and is) an open bias--sometimes bias that is even given the tacit approval of the government--against Catholics and Jews. A retired teacher friend of mine told me that when she applied for a teaching position here in Orange County (Orlando) back in the 1950's she was turned down the fist time because the principal found out that she was a Catholic. There were bars here in Orlando that stayed open and gave out free drinks when President Kennedy was murdered.

I think that unless you are totally without a soul you cannot be upset over the recent child perversion cases. Last year I read a very well-written book about the more infamous cases in the Boston diocese. It was absolutely disgusting. The whole situation was badly mishandled; Cardinal Law did not handle it at all well and I think the Church (large c) should pay through the nose.

If you are looking for a museum of saints, don't look at any church, temple or mosque. The doctrine of Christianity is based on Christ's teachings, Jesus was perfect, but His followers are not. We can only strive to be perfect. Buddha wrote many letters and essays on helping the poor but if you visit any predominately Buddhist country you will find countless examples of poverty. Does this mean that the tenets of Buddhism are not to be respected? Even after all the reforms in India, the caste system exists. About a year ago there was a very in-depth article in of all places "The Natinal Geographic" about the caste system. I suggest everyone read it. Does that mean that the tenets of Hinduism shouldn't be respected? The Seven Pillars of Islam is a guide for all people who want to live in peace and harmony, but unless you are living on Mars you know that the Middle East is in a constant state of uproar. Mohammed also spoke out against pagan practices such as female infantfacide, female circumcision, and other horrors but they are still practiced in some parts of the Middle East. Does that mean tha the tenets of Islam shouldn't be respected?

I know that Pope John Paul II is in pretty bad shape physically. I look at photos of him from just a few years ago and it pains me that he has gone down hill so much. But there is nothing wrong with his mind. He didn't let the Marcoses or the Duvaliers, or the Poles to take advantage of him or the Church and I don't think he will let the Bushes take advantage of him either. Mrs. Marcos offered the Pope one million dollars to officiate at a Mass in Manila to honor Ferdinand and he wouldn't do it. If you saw the Pope with President Bush (it was hard for me to understand what he was saying but I did read the text later) you know that the Pope once again stated his position about the war in Iraq.

No longer practicing because of general agnosticism, not a specific argument with the Church. Do I disagree with some Church doctrine? Yes. Are activities of some clerics reprehensible? Of course.

Are many critics of the Church at DU congenital Catholic-haters? Obviously. They sucked up hatred of Popery with their mothers' milk & love to trot out the old canards at any opportunity. It's an old story.

The concept of the Pope creates a situation for the Catholic church that sets it up as a target for progressive groups. Because of such concepts as Papal Infallibility and the Authority of the Holy See the Vatican claims to have authority on matters of morality and ethics.

The trouble is that in order to maintain that claim they have to stick to what previous positions were. If they admit that previous Popes and positions were in error then they open the possibility that the current positions are in error.

Thus to the Vatican few things are as troubling as a powerful progressive society. If the popularity of the socially progressive positions become overwhelming it can trigger a schism within the Church. Thus they seek the quell any such advances. Thus progressives will see the Vatican as a chilling roadblock to social progress.

just like Kerry and Kennedy. Catholic does not equal conservative.

And I post on a lot of the so-called anti-Catholic threads. Why? Because I am so sick of reading about the anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-Democratic crap coming out of the mouths of some Catholic leaders. And it's coming out of a church that badly managed the sexual abuse scandals and is closing churches in many areas due to a lack of funds and parishioners -- yet they are bound and determined to chase even more people away from the church.

As a Catholic, it hurts to see the church I was raised in tell me and many people who I am close to that we aren't "real Catholics." It also pains me to see a Bush, a non-Catholic, interfering in Catholic policy. For the first time, I am seriously considering finding a new church. I don't think I want to raise any kids we have in such a church.

Yeah, I hate to see the standard anti-Catholic jokes about the priests who can't keep their pants on, etc. They go back to a time in our nation's history when this was truly a Protestant country, and immigrant Catholics held a status not much higher than African slaves. But the Catholic church is opening itself up to criticism now -- especially within its own ranks.