BBV: Please make a selection...

Lets see which "polls better".

When voting I want a...

through as I stand there (like here in Arizona)

touchscreens soon enuf...In fact I think there are a few counties that already use them.

Be vigilant and do not accept paper trails. They lead to votehere.

that they were not looking to add touch screens in Maricopa county

Whew!

Did you know that the ATM manufacturers added all those "computing sounds" because silence made users nervous and agitated that something was going amiss w/their $$. Those noises are fake!

only once
or not at all if the ballot is unreadable

we actually use pencils and blacken in the middle of an arrow that points to the vote then the scanner reads it before it goes into the ballot box

pretty good system, cheap and reliable, with my little pencil scratches on a piece of paper to re count as needed

the scanner. One thing though . . . it doesn't show who you voted for, but it does show the number your vote is. Very simple too.

It lists the names down the page and then a big X across the page from the name. All you have to do is use the big permanent Sharpie that they supply and draw a big, black line from the name to the great big X over from it. No possible way in the world to misinterpret who or what you have voted for.

me a paper ballot...

:)

RL

The problem with paper trails is you never know what they are tracking.

then it doesn't much matter, now does it? Didn't think so.

when paper ballot is already defined?

:eyes:

Because passing legislation is like making sausage. The bill may start out defining it as a ballot, but then the lobbyists get in there.

Two scenarios: You call it a paper ballot all the time, from the start, and make the opposition fight to change it to "trail" (which opens the door for VoteHere and other non-transparent solutions)

Or, you call it a paper trail and then have to fight to call it a ballot, with lobbyists, vendors and crooked politicians who want back doors left in so they can do end runs around the auditing.

Which makes more sense? I say, get it right the first time and make them do the fighting.

Be careful what you ask for. You might just get it.

Bev Harris

I've worked with this for two years or more now.

Watch the legislation.

For example, in Washington State, there is an RCW (state law) all about what contstitutes a 'ballot.' Trail is not language used in that section.

If you pass legislation that calls for voter verified paper trail, then by law, in a court, which is going to take precedent? No one has defined this for me. I don't want an 'opinon,' I want a rock solid court judgement.

If you have law defining what a ballot is and it defines the electronic one as a ballot, but where paper is involved, it only defines that as a trail, well, which one is going to hold up in a court of law?

Don't we already have states declaring the computer count of optical scan ballots as official and nothing else, even hand counting, is? Didn't I see a story on that not too long ago?

When you have state election officials trying to be very specific about paper trail, then very specific about using that trail ONLY in recounts, then trying to limit audits (when they had to give up trying to block them completely) to only audits of the DRE's, (In Washington we have a lot of absentee ballots, so it's a mix) you've kind of got to wonder why.

After my experiences in this state, with the specificity of the language used in new legislation, I do see paper trail as very dangerous. Unless you get that defined in the RCW, defining what constitutes a ballot, I can see the fight later over the fact that VVPT is not defined as a ballot in law, but the electronic record is.

Again, if challenged, what does the law say? Not common sense, but the law? Because we've all seen examples of law superceding common sense, even when the court acknowledges that, because it's in the law.

Get paper trail defined as a ballot in the law (in the RCW defining 'ballot') and you might gain some protection.

If it's not defined as such, my guess is you'll see contested elections thrown out of court because of that little detail.

It's the small things that will trip you up. Someone can say anything they want about paper trail, show me where it will take precedence over ballot in a court of law? Sure, we can define the procedure for recounts, but I'll bet someone will challenge the legality recount of a paper trail vs. the 'ballot' count, even when that ballot count is electronic.

I've seen that trick used too many times by a former State Elections Director. Been there, seen it happen.

to our county clerk. I pressed her on the voting machines, letting her know about paper ballots, VoteHere, and other such issues. We left on very good terms. Next week when I go by F911 tickets, I will stop by the CC office to see if I can snag him for a minute or two.

I did run across some Florida pro Democracy activist later that day. I gave them your URL.

I was out doing a voter registration/Kerry promo that evening. I pitch BBV whenever I see an opportunity.

I had some politician insisting that she absolutely had to use ONLY the words "paper trail" because they make people stand up and applaud, whereas with "paper ballot" they just sit there. I do an awful lot of public speaking, and not just to groups who know about this issue, and I've sure never seen that.

I said, "If your 'polling' starts to show that people want a paper ballot then you'll start using only that language, right?

Bev Harris

Paper Trail...wild applause and cheering.

Paper Ballot...crickets. (as if)

WE WANT PAPER BALLOTS!!!

needs a new pollster.

:eyes:

:kick:

Please do so. We are making a statement here.

:kick: for democracy

it's just crap, pardon my frankness.

always appreciated.

:kick:

A Voter Verified Paper Ballot...

Where did anyone find people willing to pose with skid-marked underwear over their faces?

Thanks for the entertainment -- and the excellent point.

Bev Harris

You can do better than this!

...voted paper ballot.

Sleep well?

And you?

good thing too...we are going to work on the house today.

:hi: to you know who.

grinning...He says..."You know your not allowed to handle the power tools right? And you can't climb on the ladder either" So what anm I supposed to do? Sweep.

I don't do ladders and have difficulty with hammers.

I thought that was part of the point of wanting paper ballots. Guess I don't understand.

I thought it was the computerized, electronic voting (which is not a paper ballot, and which does not allow for a paper trail) that is the problem. ????

I would read Bev's posts above as well as my sig line for a clearer understanding of the issue.

Are there any SF Bay Area DUers who are working locally on this issue?

And OPEN SOURCE CODE for ANY machines that count ballots!!! And SPOT AUDITS in every county!

Keep up the good work!!!!


:kick::kick::kick::kick:

grasshopper! :loveya:

:pals: I've had some great teachers, Master! :loveya:

:kick::kick:

We HAVA been forced to make a decision to put safeguards on a ludicrous, clear threat. That is the reason for paper verified, recount ballots. It should be the OTHER way around with a quick computer aided counting of substantial ballots with a hand recount mandatory at leisure in any contested and/or determined margin result.

There are ways that such speed and outside redundancy can enhance security instead of replacing old fashioned BBV with invisible, private company software.

But since we have been forced stupidly down one road by the very political pros who should have, could have known better(and maybe DO know) we must get that snowjob "fixed" and "unfixed" to ever have the hope of getting any security at all!

The reporters and meme pundits are so universally stupid as not to see the point, the most successful shell game in history because the only people who are not proud dunces about computer code don't appreciate the stealing issue or its importance.

The issue and the inadequate response has been defined indelibly and politely and so idiotically it might as well be WMD's in Iraq.
Even open source code and other sensible improvements barely signify in the realms of decision or media reporting.

The mice are sold a cat to protect their cheese. Now they have to bell the cat.

:KICK:

again

"Paper Ballots"...