I was engaged in a discussion with a close friend last night and he said that liberals were hypocrites for not calling Bill Clinton a chickenhawk considering he did not serve in Vietnam and he fought wars in Bosnia, Somalia, Kosovo, and bombed Iraq, Afghanistan, and Sudan.

How should I respond?

Also remind him no one died when Clinton lied.

when he successfully evaded the draft. Bush hid out in the TANG and supported the war...as long as he didn't have to fight it himself. Bush is the walking definition of "chickenhawk," along with the rest of his administration and most of their shrieking heads on hate radio.

difference whether Clinton was a chickenhawk or a red headed grossbeak. He isn't President anymore and never will be again because Presidents are limited to 2 terms.

Bill Clinton isn't on the ballot.

n/t

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And 2 + 2 possibly equals four. Or so my "friend" tells me.

...punch him in the nose.

Who cares, wingnuts opinions are worthless for the most part. Clinton has been out of office for years, and many "liberals" did oppose Clintons military actions, just as many Republicans oppose the "Bush doctrine".

American troops died in those battles under Clinton.

chickenhawk....he forgot to say "Bring It On"

Bill Clinton was not a God, but he's not running.

Clinton inherited that one.

Why won't Kerry pull out is beyond me, but he has the support of Dean on this one.

I'm not sure how well president Kerry's appeals to the UN for assistance will be taken. It's a quagmire of the first order, and I don't see an easy out. Iraq is going to be having its civil war sooner or later, and the USA will be taking the blame no matter who happens to be president.

and decided that he could not support it. However, as president he had a responsibility to protect American interests, and so when necessary, he committed us to military action. He did not fight any wars, and all of the battles were carefully planned to minimize loss of life and provide help for those in need after the military was finished.

A chickenhawk, in my understanding, is someone who won't put himself in danger, but will put many others into war at the drop of a hat. Clinton never did that.

He only used military operations as a way to either protect US interests, or fulfil NATO obligations. And he did so in a way that Americans were kept safe, and regions more peaceful than before operations.

himself to the draft, and he was able to be drafted. Neither our current occupier in the White House, nor his vice occupier are able to say that.

fought wars in Bosnia, Somalia, Kosovo these were peacekeeping actions designed by the UN to stop genocide

Iraq, Afghanistan, and Sudan this was either (Iraq) a continuation of the policies keeping Saddam in check or (Somalia and Afghanistan) measured responses to attacks on our interests

He never engaged our military might to overturn a government, invade a sovereign nation and he did everything to keep US personnel losses at an absolute minimum

nope, the chit won't stick

Tell him Bill Clinton felt the war was morally wrong. So he protested what he felt was morally wrong. Shrub and Cheney on the other hand supported the war, but were never to sign up. They had "other priorities" or went AWOL. The same can be said for El Drugbo and Hannity...

:)

...so that NO ONE's son would have to go. The chicken hawks in Washington now, only maneuvered so they wouldn't have to go. Whose position is more righteous?

Votes are what matter. Which is why we have to keep looking for the common ground with the people open enough to debate us.

There's a crude logic in this person's argument. And I don't think you're going change his mind based on intent. So cede the point. What's gonna happen, the Big Dog's gonna leave you off his Christmas card list?


ON EDIT: I actually believe righteous does matter, but when you're arguing politics, it's damn hard to defend "righteous."

...in the sense that by calling Clinton a chicken hawk they are trying to lump him into the same category as Cheney and Rumsfeld etc....they aren't the same thing and the distinction needs to be made.

...that Clinton hatred is hard to get past. What do you want, the guy to love Clinton or vote for Kerry?

None.

Let the fuckers stay in the dark.

Thanks grendelsuncle.

Voila! Common ground.

Now he has to agree with me that Bush*, Cheney, Rush, DeLay, Rush, and the rest of the criminals are chickenhawks.

Then I'd ask him, as several posters have already suggested above, "Who, my friend, is in any position to decide our foreign policy in the future?"

Q.E.D.


(Wave bye-bye to another vote, Shrub...)

that many of us did during Vietnam. We kept our draft cards and rolled the dice. Many of us got lucky and had our numbers drawn high, as did he (and me too, thank the gods!). That in no way makes him a chickenhawk, it makes him lucky! A chickenhawk would be someone who took active measures to avoid service (can you think of a few of these, perhaps? Try looking all over the * administration), who then shrieks for others to go and fight phoney wars in order to profit from them. THOSE ARE CHICKENHAWKS, or chickenshits, whichever you prefer.

the war in Viet Nam. A chicken hawk is one who "supports" a war but does not fight it. Clinton never supported Viet Nam. Much like shrubby and dick say they supported Viet Nam but did every thing they could to avoid service. THAT's a chickenhawk.

n/t

Answer: ZERO

Nuff said!!!!!

But youre right in spirit - casualties were <b>much</b> lower during Clinton's years in office

He inherited it. And the Clinton administration RESENTED having inherited that mess. This is one of the reasons that Clinton DIDN'T go into Afghanistan in December of 2000. Professional courtesy for the incoming administration. They were repaid with scurrillous lies about them "trashing" the White House.

Because Bill Clinton didn't go to Vietnam, that means as president he can't order any military actions? He was commander in chief; that was his job.

Bad road to go down on.

You've jumped right into the shark, there.

The dialectic usually goes something like this...
Joe Democrat: bush and cheney and wolfowitz and perle actively avoided military service when they had a chance, but now they're all really happy to send our troops into Iraq or whereever the fuck else they want. they're "chickenhawks".

Rudy Repub: Clinton did it too.

(at this point, Joe Democrat has many options.)

1) "Clinton was commander in chief, that was his job."
D'oh! Not effective.

2) "Clinton actively opposed the Vietnam war, but was eligible for the draft lottery and drew a late number; bush and the others act like they love war, but they found other ways to duck service when they had a chance."
Slight improvement.

3) "Clinton was careful not to deploy troops outside of what was requested by the international community, always with backup from NATO or the UN. Unlike our current administration..."
Could work.

4) "Clinton is not the president now. Arguing tu quoque about Clinton is just a pathetic excuse for avoiding the subject. Clinton's interventionism sucked, and bush's war against the world sucks extra hard. At least Clinton's chickenhawkery didn't piss off the entire freaking planet."
I like this approach, because it takes the "Clinton too" gambit and throws it right back in their faces.

The welfare of America meant something to him.

His Humility level is a lot better than Bushies. Clinton never walks with a swagger. Bush does.

chicken: didn't want to actually go to war

hawk: actively tried to bring about that which he tried to avoid.

So, concede to him on the first part, that Clinton didn't want to go to Vietnam. But unlike Bush & Cheney, who also didn't want to go, he wasn't a bloodthirsty warmonger like they are.

How's that? And welcome to DU.

What can I say?

Clinton was indeed a draft dodger, and did involve ithe USA in that Bosnia and Kosovo thing, which, lucky for us, didnt turn into the bloody mess that Iraq has.

Clinton registered for the draft. He was in the draft lottery. He drew a high number. That kept him from being drafted.

That is not draft dodging, that was the luck of the federally-mandated draw.

Any other explanation is repuke-generated bull.

He was going to go into the National Gaurd, but weasel-worded his way out of that.

So, yeah, he did avoid service.

He was against the Viet Nam war, said so and didn't want to go to fight in it. He thought it was wrong and he was right. A Chickenhawk is one who supports war, criticizes anyone who does not, but who does everything in their power to not join the fight. They take delight in supporting wars that other people fight.

Find some smarter friends.
On the other hand it may all be clearer at the great unmasking.

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Birds of a feather flock together.

Bush I started Somalia, Iraq, Afghan, Sudan we only dropped bombs and fired missiles at. Yugoslavia is a weak point. How many people did we lose there? I can't remember was it like 3 or something? and it was special forces and/or pilots who fully expect to be in harms way when they sign up.

bill clinton needs no one to defend him. considering bill clinton's humble background, only tremendous courage could have carried him to his place in history. does your friend hold bush to the same standard?

Help your friend by encouraging him to get over his unhealthy obsession with Clinton. As has been pointed out over and over, he's not president any longer. Our next president did serve as well as protest. There are huge problems facing this country. Being pro or anti-Clinton at this moment in time doesn't address any of them.

that Clinton was a better leader and man, though I despised him at the time, maybe because I was caught up with the net of what was to catch me,

I have no idea what that means except Billy had a brain and he could use his charm for the safety of the world, but this petri dish failed experiment excrement you now call your President is god damned scary. Flush him down, he is a total disgrace as a representative of americans.

When Clinton gave a speech about Kerry..it was at a major event when Kerry became the presumptive nominee...Clinton talked about the chickenhawks. He didn't use that term, of course, but he contrasted them to Kerry. He included himself right in with them. That's part of his brilliance as a politician, of course. You do kind of disarm them when you do things like that. When Clinton came into office, none of this seemed relevant. Times change, things change.

compared to the fetal alchohol symdrome kid at the worlds wheel.

Requiring the commander in chief to have served goes against the very principle of "Civilian Leadership" as laid down in the constitution.

I've always found this a silly attack on the current administration.

I totally endorse attacks on them for wrapping themselves in the flag however.

But I doubt he will be able to understand the nuance of why that is.

Don't feed the trolls, my friends!

If you define a chickenhawk as someone who did not serve in one war, but advocated for another, then yes, I suppose the label does fit.

However, my usage of the term is someone who does not serve in a war, but believes in the cause that war was obstensibly being fought for.

Under my definition, someone's lack of service in Vietnam is only an issue if they also believe that the Vietnam War was necessary, or a good idea, etc.

ok by me. he is basically right. and that is ok. then give your friend this.

George W. Bush - National Guard back when service there meant you did not see combat. Even so, went AWOL for a year.
Dick Cheney - did not serve.
John Ashcroft, Attorney General - did not serve.
Don Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor.
Rep. Dennis Hastert, Speaker of the House - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Rep. Tom Delay, House Majority Leader - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Rep. Roy Blunt, House Majority Whip (MO) - did not serve
Dick Armey, Former House Majority Leader - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Sen. Bill Frist , Senate Majority Leader (TN) - did not serve.
Sen. Mitch McConnell, Majority Whip, (KY) - did not serve.
Sen. Rick Santorum, (PA), third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)
Trent Lott, Former Senate Majority Leader (MS) - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve.
Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Newt Gingrich, Former Speaker of the House - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Bill Bennett, (author of Why We Fight), did not serve.
Antonin Scalia, Supreme Court Justice, did not serve.
Clarence Thomas, Supreme Court Justice, did not serve.
Phil Gramm, former Senator. Did not serve.
Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense, did not serve.
Spencer Abraham, Secretary of Energy, did not serve.
Rep. Henry Hyde, (IL) did not serve.
Jack Kemp, did not serve.
Sen. Don Nickles, (OK) did not serve.
J. C. Watts, Former Congressman, (OK), did not serve.
Bill Simon, did not serve.
Saxby Chambliss, did not serve.
Marc Racicot, avoided the draft despite a lottery number of 23. see http://www.billingsnews.com/story?storyid=3182&issue=98

Right-wing preachers and pundits

P. J. O'Rourke (author of Give War a Chance), did not serve.
Bill Kristol, editor The Weekly Standard, did not serve.
Bill O'Reilly, Fox News celebrity, did not serve.
Sean Hannity, Fox News celebrity, did not serve.
Wolf Blitzer, CNN Newsman. Did not serve.
David Horowitz, Right Wing media hit man. Did not serve.
Mike Savage, Right Wing media hit man, did not serve.
George Will, columnist, did not serve.
Pat Robertson, politician/preacher, His US Senator daddy got him out of Korea when war began.
Ralph Reed, did not serve.
Jerry Falwell, preacher/politician, did not serve.
Ken Starr, did not serve.
Gary Bauer, politician/preacher, did not serve.
Alan Keyes, did not serve.
Roger Ailes, Fox News President, did not serve.
Rush Limbaugh, did not serve

Democrat military history

Bill Cinton - avoided draft
House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt - Served his country in uniform, 1965-71
House Minority Whip David Bonior - Served his country in uniform, 1968-72
Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle - Served his country in uniform, 1969-72
Former Vice President Al Gore - Served his country in uniform, 1969-71; recipient of Vietnam Service Medal
Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Congressional Medal of Honor, Vietnam
Daniel Inouye... Democrat... Congressional Medal of Honor, World War Two
John Kerry... Democrat...Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam
Charles Rangel...Democrat... Bronze Star, Korea
Max Cleland... Democrat... Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam
Howell Heflin... Democrat... Silver Star
Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953.
Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.


Rep. Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal. http://www.afji.com/mags/1997/Jan/VietVets.html
Ambassador "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Democratic congressman, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit http://www.af.mil/news/Apr1997/n19970414_970430.html
Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: served in combat with the U.S. Army as a staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade; was wounded and received a Purple Heart. http://www.house.gov/mthompson/bio.html

nt

signed up for ROTC and then his lottery number was called. Clinton's not the one that lead us into a bullshit war.

nice try

So if you exclude the the meaning of the word from the logic, and define it anyway you want, then your friend is correct.