I'm scared - I've got a mail, sounds real!!!!

I've got a very interesting mail from a friend, living abroad, member since a long time with more than 3000 posts!!

Read what made me scared:

Elf, on DU I often WISH I could explain, but mostly the Amis will NOT HEAR. I continue my efforts for those who may.
Please do make your "escape plan" as the situation there will make the nazis look like a Boy Scout picnic. It is so PAINFUL to say that and see it so clearly. 2 years ago I spent HOURS DAILY on DU to educate people about the history of Germany. At that time there were only 5.000 registered and the atmosphere was different. I KNEW I had made progress when I got a reply to a post that said, "I will NEVER judge the Germans again." Today it is MUCH MORE difficult to penetrate all the media "noise."

I will push this into the morning hours, because it's important.

I know of a group who is saying the exact same thing!!! They are in Canada now. A bunch of them left a month ago. Some of them are still here and they continue to urge people to get out.

I'm just curious if these could be affiliated in any way. PM me if you think it would be better that way.

The folks I'm talking about convinced me, but I am older and sickly and wouldn't make the journey out easily. I keep in contact with them as a "just in case" thing for my family/children. Although, these folks have warned me that waiting until the last minute would be the worst possible thing to do. Yikes, don't know how to handle that.

They said their crossing wasn't exactly a cakewalk when they left and speculate that if Bush were to win, the borders could clamp down tighter than ...you fill in the blanks.

In any case, I'd like to discuss it with you if you are willing.
SB

...How did they get into Canada and what are they doing there? Curious about more details as to that and their thoughts on what is happening...

for all the reasons I read in these posts here since my original reply.

They could be a bit alarmist but on the whole their research and arguments for leaving are spot on in terms of detail and history (fascist history)

They revive the history of how hitler came to power, how he used the church to back him up. How he had everyone cheering him on while, behind their backs he was doing and planning nasty stuff. Happy, smiling, hip hip hooray, 'long live the furher--he's cleaning up the "immoral" aspects of our society and improving the economy..'

Get rid of those that are a drain on the society any way possible. Go out and conquor everything for the "Homeland/Fatherland".

Then these folks talk about things such as this patriot act and it's insidious tenticles. They talk about the Viet Nam era "Phoenix Program" where people are "disappeared"....sound familiar? They talk about how German Jews didn't believe anything would happen to them, for example. That there would be time to leave if it became necessary but THERE WASN'T ANY TIME AND THEY DIED.

These individuals are activists in politics. They are very adamant anti-NAFTA and all the rest. They also have other interests that I won't go into here and which I find a wee bit over the top.

In any case, they began making plans to leave the US about a year back. They made contacts with people in Canada and elsewhere, went to visit, bought property and then made year long preparations to leave. They began to close out accounts, pay up their bills, collect what they needed, quit their jobs, save their money, disconnect from all things unessential. The day came. They got a caravan together with all their belongings and their deed to the property in Canada. They took off driving day and almost every night. They tried to get through a border crossing less traveled but found it closed at the time of night they reached it. They had to go back and go through the main entry to Canada. There were two places they had to stop for inspections.

ALL they had were their drivers licenses and the deed to their property. They did not have a passport or immigration papers... they snuck in essentially....and almost didn't make it. They said there were black suited fellas there looking all menacing wanting to know what they were up to. They had children with them, they had a note for the children from their parents. They gave some song and dance about what they were up to but still had to wait for 3 HOURS while the border patrol grilled them. They were nervous. Finally, they were let in.................. According to these folks, they say they were just plain lucky. I mean there they were in the middle of the night with a U-haul and three vehicles, dogs, kids, furniture and NO PASSPORT but they didn't claim that they were going to live there permanently......very lucky. It freaked them out but they made it. Now they are going to, with discretion, make their journey and place a way for others to get out of USA if that's what others want to do.

These people were also worried about thier freedom of speech here. They have a website that flames this country. They say that canada, so far, is still lax in it's regulations regarding the internet.

Maybe they are paranoid, maybe not; in any case, they made it..they are gone.

so i wouldnt be looking at canada for protection

So CANADIANS will also end up in the boiling lobster pot. :scared:

These folks seem to think that in time what you're saying will come to pass and they will have to deal with it some other way.

I'm just hoping that the worst case scenario doesn't happen. I mean, here we are talking about such things and maybe, just maybe we won't be fool enough to let the wool be pulled over our eyes as it was in times gone by.

If we keep our eyes and ears open, continue to keep dialogue open, continue to spread the truth as it becomes available, perhaps we can stave off anything too weird.

X X <---------fingers crossed and eyes wide open.

This thread is talking about stuff my friends were telling me about a long time ago....


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1825410#1827150

and takeover in Germany beginning in the mid 1920s and on until well after our entry into the war against Nazi Germany which should have been treason. They went to court and lost on some minor charge and ended event getting to keep those funds seized under trading with the enemy act. For this important story go to < http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm >. Is it any surprise they are still at it. ...Oscar

to use our escape program.................I don't feel well right now.

How can I stand to stay...........what gives me hope to stay?

Richard Clarke,Marine Gen. Zinni, Dr. Kay, Paul O`Neil, ambassador Wilson and his wife CIA agent V. Plame, and recently CIA director Tenet, and many other brave Americans are standing up to and speaking out against this Admi..They < BUSHCO > have made a very many powerful enemies in the Military and Intelligence Communities who have life long Friends and ties to these groups. Bush and his bunch will not get the needed support to declare Martial law or whatever, Take heart my Friend. People ARE standing up before it is too late. ...Oscar

that the military would never go against *. While I still have my doubts, I'm now at least hoping that I will get to eat some of my words.

In light of this, I've recently modified my position: I still don't think there will be a military coup (and I don't want one). But it may turn out that the military will refuse to follow *'s illegal orders. I hope for that much. If we can avoid martial law, then we might still save some remnant of democracy.

I do believe that if * retains power, the borders will immediately lock down.

Just curious...seems they can't even protect our Borders from illegal immigrants crossing over on either side, how do you think they would do that (aside from Airports) and interfering with international travel and commerce....

Just curious...your thoughts?

You're spoiling the fun.

ANYBODY BUT BUSH

Click here for "ANYBODY BUT BUSH", and other fair and balanced yet stunning buttons, magnets and stickers

i waz thinkin the same, cant keep anyone out, how can they keep anyone in. can see them having control over the cash to the point but even that.....so

We'd be questioning them and creating problems for them.

...I guess ignorance really is bliss, eh?

http://www.badbabes.org
http://www.1000flowers.org

I believe the "lock-down" will be financial...
how far could you get with the cash you have on hand?
If they pull a currency switch, not even people who
have been stashing cash would have a way out, financially
that is. You would have to turn your 'old' currency in
for an exchange, and they might limit what you could walk
away with from the transaction, cash wise.
Just my thought on how they would "close" the borders.
BHN

...money into Euros, gold, Silver - and in other banks outside the country....

the people coming here generally just get shipped back across the border to Mexico. besides, they don't even want to stop illegal immigration from Mexico!

when it comes time to nab us trying to cross to canada, they will throw our asses in jail forever! the people fleeing will invariably be broke/in debt, have warrants, be obvious political refugees. they'll have no problem stopping many. we'll have to bum-rush the border. then canada will really hate us.

"seems they can't even protect our Borders from illegal immigrants crossing over on either side"

Seems they don't want to. If they put resources into it I'm sure they could, but it seems to me they encourage illegal immigration, or at least don't actively fight against it, for labor market purporses.

For the record I don't believe that if Bush retains power he'll try to close the border. I can't see the motivation for it.

They would get all the support they need if they do it that way.

in place, a number of activists have been prevented from getting on airplanes for the past couple of years. Do you really think it would be that difficult to lock up all the international airports? All they have to do is ground the planes, like they did after Sept 11.

Sure, if you want to swim the River or cross through Dakota, I suppose you could get out. But there are a lot of people on here contemplating Europe as an escape hatch. It's not that difficult to stop people from escaping there.

Meanwhile, we already have an extradition agreement with Canada, a country which over the last few years has been toughening its immigration laws.

There was an article on this subject a couple weeks ago in a German magazine--Stern, I think. The viewpoint was the other way around--the difficulties Germans were having getting into the States--but the principle is the same.

Why do you think the US switched to "smart" passports?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

It's over the center field wall, that sucker is OUTTA HERE!!!

:bounce:
dbt

I have over 300 posts on DU. It's about time I got a reaction to one of them. . . .

That alone raises my eyebrows. Maybe you should consider some other name.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:)

It's pronounced "AHR-wen-rood". It's Welsh Celtic.

Are they usa citizens or other?

And no-one in the world is safe w/Bush in power. He will start World War 3. Doesn't matter where you are.

We prefer to believe that if only X can win, this will not happen. We are so far gone down this path that I don't know if we can esape it.

Don't be scared though... Just make your plan so that you'll be able to if the need arises. It may not.

Peace

And you have a good point. My friends say that they don't even trust whomever gets into office....'we are so far down the path already..' I cling to hope though like the other poster said....make people aware and keep them aware. Don't let this idea fall down the memory hole...

...end of the fight...The only difference of Kerry winning versus * is that it buys our planet some time and we have to keep on working for the better good of our world and humanity. If Dubya wins then I think we need to all be very worried...this is why I don't sleep at night....

this has really takin hold of the nation, and i wonder when does it get bad enough for people to see. maybe it is a total ruin,.......

has happened before in history

Her analogy is that our country is a patient bleeding to death on the operating table and that the main priority is to get Bush out and stop the bleeding. Never mind if the surgeon (Kerry) is incompetent but just get him in here to stop the bleeding.

She loathes Kerry as much as I do because of his votes, Skull and Bones, Trilateral Commission (and no she is not a DUer, just a well-informed person) but she has a point - we need to at least stem the bleeding.

The problem is that I started paying attention about 7 years ago before Bush was on the scene and read a lot of stuff about what was going on under Clinton from people warning against the NWO. I believed very little of it and thought it was mad rantings; now I am not so convinced & it's extremely bothersome. The Patriot Act, for instance, is not new to Bush. Bush simply enhanced the

major incursions into civil liberties that were sponsored by Bill Clinton in 1994 and 1996, including the setting up of secret courts and the launch of mass deportations.

The 1996 Antiterrorism Act gave the secretary of state the authority to decide which organizations are terrorist. Anyone supporting such an organization for humanitarian reasons is liable to criminal prosecution. And, of course, under Clinton the FBI was allowed to continue building files on people and organizations based not on the likelihood of their committing a crime, but on grounds that an FBI agent thought they should be investigated. This act, directed at international terrorism, was pushed through Congress in the aftermath of the Oklahoma City bombing, which the government had no reason to believe was caused by foreign terrorists. These measures were opposed not by rank-and-file Democrats, but by the ACLU, per usual, and conservatives who feared they might be the targets of the next investigation.

Two examples of what Clinton, and now Attorney General John Ashcroft, have brought the nation in the hunt for terrorists: <snip> http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0331/mondo3.php

This is NOT to say that Bush isn't worse than Clinton because no matter how dismal Clinton's record was on civil liberties, he didn't do away with notification or due process. My problem is that he paved the way and got the ball rolling. WHY? Same thing with consolidating the media at a time that we needed media independence the most. Why? Or the war against Yugoslavia which was, IMO, step one of the PNAC wars and stated by Albright as being used to "justify the existence of NATO". Why? NAFTA, GATT, WTO, FTAA. Why? There are so many why's I have for Clinton now that I didn't have at the time.

It seems the only people bothering with details anymore are the Leftists and the Conservatives and both have been alarmed for the last 20 years.

As long as both parties keep pointing the finger at the other guy and not holding our own responsible- I think we're doomed. We can not keep glibly excusing everything that happens under our watch as "a brilliant move" or "great statesmanship" because it suits our immediate purposes. What's our long range purpose? I propose that it should be to make everyone accountable and hold their feet to the fire to get out of this bi-partisan mess.

Yeah... let's make everyone aware even if we never trust again. I don't see what other choice we have if we want that hope to be worth anything and give our country a chance to get out of this. This is a depressing thread to revisit on a Sunday morning!

"Make people aware and keep them aware" - good one!

Well to begin with these trade treaties are an inevitable fact of globalization. To deny the force of globalization is similar to ignoring global warming. The idea that global trade can function without international treaties is absurd.

It should be in the interest of those who care about social justice and FAIR economic trade to participate in the discussion of economic treaties.

It is true that some points of view are seldom heard in trade talks it is also true that silence or fighting the economic reality of the world will serve no purpose.

I make no claim that any treaty or agreement is fair nor do I endorse the policies and or actions of specific world trade bodies. I do fully recognize that globalization of trade (as separate from social globalization) is a reality that must be dealt with on its own terms. In other words globalization is an evolution of economics that we can't ignore for if we do we lose our say. Our inaction to participate in the system will lead to less fair less democratic processes and policies.

I have seen that many people fight against things like NAFTA and WTO etc.. but I wonder if they are only against the outcomes of these organizations or are they against the basic principles of the various global trade organizations.

"Well to begin with these trade treaties are an inevitable fact of globalization. To deny the force of globalization is similar to ignoring global warming. The idea that global trade can function without international treaties is absurd."

Your statement is absurd. Let's take it one at a time.

"to begin with these trade treaties are an inevitable fact of globalization"

The trade treaties are legislation written and passed by governments. They are in no way an inevitable fact of anything.

"To deny the force of globalization is similar to ignoring global warming"

that's just inane.

"The idea that global trade can function without international treaties is absurd"

Lol! Global trade has been functioning for a very long time before the new trade treaties.

If our trade treaties incorporate the same ideas of social justice
that many of our laws do, they will become a force for good, as well
as providing a more level playing field.

Corporations should not be able to flee environmental regulation by
going offshore. Good trade treaties can prevent them from doing so.
An absence of treaties cannot.

This is NOT to say that Bush isn't worse than Clinton because no matter how dismal Clinton's record was on civil liberties, he didn't do away with notification or due process. My problem is that he paved the way and got the ball rolling.

Excellent points.

Maybe Democrats weren't so worried about Clinton's erosion of civil liberties because he was "our guy", and so we had nothing to fear -- and it made it easier to keep tabs on right-wing nuts: Kluxers, anti-abortion terrorists, anti-government "militias".

Now that the shoe is on the other foot, and the apparatus of the State is being used against anti-war protestors and dissenters, we realize once again that liberty is either for everyone, or for no one.

With civil liberties, perhaps more so than anything else in the public sphere, the bell really does toll for you.

I miss you. I've got some plans I've been thinking about.

Was taking a break. All this stuff gets too heavy sometimes. :hi:

Got too intense in here for awhile... just came back on about a week ago.

Really good to see/read you. :hi:

It was intense! But now I'm totally recalibrated :) Good to see you here!

:hi:

...country back in November, but Elf posts something that I dare say many people I know are thinking and feeling and feel quite uneasy about...

I'm trying not to be "scared" because I think there is already too much "Fear" in our world right now and its what the Bush & Rove folks want. However, my instincts have of late been telling me to have a plan B and plan C....Personally, I don't think that is an unwise or "paranoid" move....just cautious....

Namaste....

My instincts are telling me the same. Problem is I have seriously not come up with any. If I were 18 or 26, it would be easy but at this age, the thought of having to plan for that boils my blood. Still, I suppose it's not to late and that I should at least come up with something.

Plan A for the moment is to remain and fight- not because I want to but because it would be a lot easier than implementing any Plan B ;) besides, this is OUR country. How DARE they?

has me sick. I don't feed my dogs (one of which is an adopted Beagle) Iams and surely now I never will.

Humans are so cruel. :cry:

a couple years ago, i started seeing evaculations into the mountains. i have been feeling it strongly here and there

i dont think these things have to be though, depends on whether people to become aware. it is as simple as merely becoming aware, and i have seena lot of signs of this, like people seeing and hearing the lies of bush, cant get away with nearly as much, people are listening for it. also moores film coming out, that tells me there has been a shift.

i think if bush does become president then he implements draft and creates his dictatorship. and we have exactly what this person is seeing,..........

There definitely has been. People have been steadily heading into the mountains in an increasing stream for the last 7 years (since I've been paying attention). I laughed at them for the first 3. Right now, I envy them.

The shift is heart-warming & encouraging.

thats what we are.

...when we do realize, we'll all be cooked!

:grr:

It's like, "crawfish in a pot" down here.

....sorry for the imagery...

But that's why we need Swamp Rats....

Welcome to the DU :hi:

I love you guys, all! I have truely come home.

I've been lurking for 3 years, but mopaul's thread about rebels called me out of the shadows today and now I've joined DU.

When I was living in Brazil last year (reading DU daily in cyber cafes), witnessing the flame wars on DU during the election primaries I thought "this is good," though it seemed some feelings were hurt after some folks chose to attack rather than debate. We must continue to talk, debate and occasionally rant if we're to keep this precious democracy alive.

I traveled all over Brazil, ALWAYS hunting for cyber cafes in order to read DU. Everwhere I went I railed against this current administration (I got threatened with physical violence by 3 Freepers in Rio de Janeiro, but 19 Brazilians came to my defense), constantly outdoing any criticism of our corrupt government. I imagine Paul Revere wasn't just saying the "British are coming" without also yelling "King George is a fucking asshole" or "fuck the monarchy" or something to that effect, which is what I was saying about Bush&Co.

Yep, we suck da head and pinch da tail down here... crawfish that is. ;-)

:toast:

Nice to be welcomed by so many fine people. I have been reading your posts on a regular basis, and I must credit you for your wealth of information concerning Haiti.

One night I was talking to Ray Taliaferro on KGO AM, San Francisco when he had Maxine Waters on his show, and the topic was Haiti/Aristide and you, unknowingly, provided me with the up to date info I needed. Since I didn't have the time to yank a bunch of books off the shelves (to get dates on Papa Doc etc.) or dig up articles on my computer hard drive, I immediately remembered your discussion on DU... this topic is worthy of another thread.

I'm totally honored and glad I was of some service. I look forward to reading more of your posts. And one day, if you're ever in my neck of the woods, bring me some crawdads. I'll cook them Haitian-style and curl your toes!

Welcome again!

Toe-curling food! As you probably know, we live to eat here. Where's your neck of the woods? I've never had crawfish Haitian-style, but I'm sure I'd love it especially since Haitian culture is embedded in our own.

Thanks again for the welcome. The honor is mine.

I changed a couple of things in the title, but it such a real human perspective. Thanks for the giggle :toast:

Now imagine a sweaty American guy (it's HOT at 2 degrees South latitude) running around wearing the Brazilian national soccer team uniform constantly saying this and other newly learned phrases in Portuguese.

"O rei Bush é foda!!!"

My guess they don't really care who or what we are, they just need us to go away.

The times I went overseas in the military a couple of decades ago, made it seem that way at least.

June 19, 2004
Its Time to Run Against Bush
And keep running all the way to November


Off to a good start

Usually I am not the political type. I'm not one to get into heated arguments about government policy or judicial rulings. I try very hard, in fact, to live a politics-free life in the epicenter of American public affairs, and I often succeed.

My more passionate friends, like Scott, Matt, and Chanda, cannot understand this and shake their heads in confusion. How I could not be incensed when Bush concocted his whole smoke and mirrors, oops, I mean 9/11 and weapons of mass destruction Iraq invasion? Why I am not infuriated as we produce a whole new origin and generation of terrorists as we 'liberate' a country?

Mostly I have a strong belief that in time, we would find out the truth and our leaders would have to accept the errors of their actions. That when the 9/11 Iraq-al Qaeda link was discredited and WMD's were never found, Bush would do a public mea culpa and start sacking a few advisors.

That was until this past week, when the pure fiction of what our leaders are saying pushed my bullshit button one to many forceful times. That our President still insists, "There was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda, because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda," is beyond me.

Besides the tragic logic of "Because I say so", the September 11 Commission stated emphatically; "We have no credible evidence, that Iraq and al-Qaida cooperated on attacks against the United States." And despite evidence of contacts between the terrorists and the dictator during the 1990s, "they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship." Hell, even "two senior Bin Laden associates have adamantly denied that any ties existed between al-Qaida and Iraq.
(snip)
http://www.bellybuttonwindow.com/

..would agree... :kick:

Wow, welcome to DU...your no lurker, just a little initially shy...Brazil, eh? Went there several times in the 90's on Business and loved it there...

Freepers in Brazil? Leftover Nazis or online?

I was in a bar in Copacabana listening to chôro music (a lot like New Orleans jazz from the 1920s), when I met an Oxford scholar. We began a long, political discussion on everything from Cicero to Cromwell to the Mayberry Medicis in the White House. 3 Americans (wealthy brats) were sitting behind me and listening to me trash their beloved leader.

It began as the lead freep started saying things like "yeah, we kicked ass in Basra!" or "let's nuke the rag heads." Since my cousin was in Basra at that time, I got pretty angry but ignored them and instead concentrated on discussing the Neo-Platonic philosophy of Leo Strauss and his followers. When the British guy asked me what I was doing I got a few digs in by saying that I was going to write an exposé on "dumb Americans who happen to be born wealthy." This of course elevated the situation to confrontation, but as the guys were just about to jump me, a large group of Brazilians (who had been listening intensely) moved around me. Some things were said to the guys, and the girls they were hitting on left them in disgust. Though I seldom suffer fools like this, I hope at least one of those guys was really listening and learned something.

Then I was treated to one of the best nights I've had in years!

Three MUST watch movies to contemplate
where we stand as HORRIFIC history repeats time ten thousand:
1. The Pianist
2. Ship of Fools
3. The Grey Zone

Think it can't happen here?
That's what they are counting on.
BHN

...to add to the growing list of movies that can describe scenarios of our world...

I do think "IT" can happen here, and your absolutely right - most Americans think that it never could. Most people are either too busy trying to manage their lifes from day to day that they aren't paying attention, others think that our country is so solid and the constitution so strong that nothing bad can ever happen, but they seem to be blind to the fact that our Constitution is being defecated on daily by this administration and they are putting measures in place that will dismantle it unless the 4th Branch of our Constitutional System of "Checks and Balances" starts working....the very first thing it says...."WE THE PEOPLE"....and unless people "wake up" and start being the "We the People" and enact that authority and "check" on the system, "IT" will happen...

I was just going to say.

Sad, disgusting documentary on Vietnam.

...in both Gold, Silver and Euros....I have for a long time had a sickening feeling that "if" I need to get out of the country with my family that having it only in US banks and investments would be a big mistake. I can't believe that I am actually doing this because I am not someone who would have ever, ever believed this would be "necessary"...

I have lots of thoughts on possible scenarios of things but am curious what other DUers are feeling thinking about things.

PS: Funny to see the word "Amis"....

Eleven - explain to other DUers what that means.... :)

Cuz I have thought about that, too. Just don't know anything about doing it. European? Japanese?

will NOT fail.
Hard to open an account with them though, cause
the Cabal has told them not to let any money out
of the country by now...the border closing will be
handled financially.
No dough=no go.
BHN

...what it used to be, thanks to our so-called "War against Drugs." I would seriously check out the revisions in those laws before I transferred a single dime. Just FYI.

I've never personally dealt with these places, but I know of others that have:

http://www.everbank.com/main.asp?affid=eb (this one sells world currencies) ...

http://www.xpresstrade.com/

:kick:

computer at all?

That's when we'll know if we live in a true fascist police state or not.

let these bastards intimidate you. "There is good in this World and it is worth fighting for"! ! ...Oscar < quote from Tolkien there at the end >

Yeah, I've lived in Europe, Central and South America. Hell, my girlfriend lives in Brazil and wants me to move back there (I could become a Brazilian citizen very easily). But Hell no, I won't go down without a fight!

Why run, unless you are of draft age? Or even if you are draftable... If we cannot stop them here, the rest of the Earth is fucked!

Actually, I miss Brazil very much, but I want to actively participate in saving the USA before I move back. There's too much good work done by our forefathers to let it just dissipate without a fight. I ain't no military type, but if they try to steal the election again America will need every living, breathing patriot.

Thanks DEMVET-USMC for your service. I will not let your, nor my father, grandfather, uncles, great uncles and cousins' service go to waste... now, how do I prevent them from sending my cousin back to Iraq for a second tour?

:steaming mad:

sole surviving son" there was and very well may still be, provisions provided for him to apply for this status and thereby have solid grounds for not being sent back to Iraq. Is he the only Son in that family ? If he is he has to request that status. He has already served there and there is good reason to believe this will prevent him from being sent back. Please answer that question for me as I very much do care. ...Oscar

I'm not sure if he can be considered the "only son" since he has a two or three half-brothers, all by different women. The family in this case is a complicated matter. His father (USN), my cousin, went insane back in the 1970s (man, is this a long story), so his son was raised by his grandparents... who drank the RW Koolaide.

It's hard to communicate with my aunt because all I ever hear is "guns, God and country" (John wayne portraits next to Reagan etc.), My cousin, whom I call "Little Randy" is in the Army Reserve (drove petrol trucks from Baghdad to Basra), and will be sent back sometime this Summer - I know he doesn't want to go, but I can only communicate with him through his Army email address, so I NEVER mention anything that might get him in trouble.

I held this boy in my arms when he was just a baby many years ago... I cannot bear the thought of anything happening to him.

Thanks again.

the specific language regarding this" Sole Surviving Son Provision". I believe it dates back to WWII and an incident involving the deaths of the Sullivan Brothers who all died as the result of the sinking of a certain ship. It was a very famous incident and a movie Named: The fighting Sullivans,or: The Fighting Sullivan Brothers, came about because of that incident. Anyway you search around and I will also. I am going to start with key words: uniform code of military justice+sole surviving son - and see what I can find. Your Friend, Oscar

I'm gonna call my aunt Sherry Lynn in New Mexico tomorrow. I have refrained from calling since she got pissed at me the last time, but I have a thick skin. My uncle (Oscar Bert) is a tough nut to crack too, a rancher and truck drivin' son-of-a-gun. He used to beat the crap out of us if we even looked at him sideways or lagged behind in our work, but deep down he's got a heart. I know they love their grandson... maybe they have changed their tune in the last few months, especially after Little Randy has had the time to tell them what he went through in Iraq.

Must sleeep...

That site is: < http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blsolesurviving.htm >. Also I ran across other hardship related provisions that may apply for your cousin and there are quite a number of organizations offering counciling for him and people like him . ...Oscar

...along with the "Pace" flag I got from Rome...A lot of neighbors ask me what "Pace" means (Peace) and want to know about the white flag....

"She never begins an attack, nor, when once engaged, ever surrenders: She is therefore an emblem of magnanimity and true courage. ... she never wounds 'till she has generously given notice, even to her enemy, and cautioned him against the danger of treading on her." - Benjamin Franklin on choosing the rattlesnake as the symbol used by many for the emblem used on the Culpepper and Gadsen Flags

Here's an interesting write-up from someone about the "Rattlesnake" and the Gadsen/Culpepper flags that I liked:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_mark_021303_tread.html

I'm a Mama rattlesnake...Don't f*ck with me....(tread was the nice word)

:)

:hi:

Is that who the email mentioned by Elf is from???
HI EWING_2001!!!
We miss you!!!
BHN :grouphug:

:pals::hi:Nico....where have you been??? :hi::toast:

This is a great thread.

:kick::kick:

have had no money before

can always make money. that doesnt keep me in a country. and i have a couple people in family that has access to jobs all over world and are wanted in employeement

Hell, USD ain't gonna be worth the paper its printed on and you can't eat it...

One thing not mentioned in these postings about "escape" plan is what you do if you are not able to "escape" ie. where you get your food...

In case people used to think that "survivalists" were crazy, we could maybe all start taking the time and measures of how to grow our own food, have the ability to have food sources for protein (ie. chickens, goat milk etc.)

Am I the only one who thinks that isn't so far fetched? I've been thinking about that a lot lately too...

...the deer eating my plants anymore; the tables will have turned on that! :)

...Now I know why I don't mind the deer in our canyon so much....

:evilgrin:

It's a good idea to learn how to fish, hunt, and plant vegetables, tan a hide and sew, tie numerous knots, sail, triangulate and parallax, speak a couple of languages, exercise regularly, etc. Then you can stay here in the USA and HELP the ones who don't have these skills.

You're right about the paper money, unless you want to build a fire. I imagine that if things were to get as bad as folks are saying in this thread (in a short time frame), we'd also have to battle roving gangs and cannibals as well as a merciless Praetorian Guard that serve their overlords.

So, don't y'all think it would be easier in the long run to fight right here, right now instead of just waiting for the water to boil and then try to jump out? I'm not knocking anyone who wants to leave - I have been considering this too - but we must consider if anyone else WANTS us in their country.

...I am a sailor (although don't do much sailing now that I have two little ones) and know how to fish, shoot skeet off the back of a boat (so I guess I could hit the deer here if I needed too), I am an avid gardener and I have in-laws that are biologists/botanists, so I guess they could teach me some additional valuable survival things, and since I'm a sailor who has even sailed ocean races and definitely knows a few things about some hardship and survival (and how to tie knots and took navigation courses etc.) and I speak 3 languages, do yoga etc....

Wow, I'm not in as bad a shape as I could be!

I'm planning on staying, but I learned in sailing to always have alternate navigational routes....that's why I'm preparing for the storm and battin down the hatches, getting the storm sheets ready and know my options...

I love this country...so much that it makes me cry when I think of what is being done to our constitution and to civil liberties....I'm very active politically and am working hard these next 5 mos to make sure we save our country....but I'm also making sure I look out for my family and what might be coming....

I'll bet your sailing skills are better than mine, but I did a bit off the coast of Costa Rica/Nicaragua/Panama as well as in Lake Ponchartrain (New Orleans), though this lake is not an exrtreme challenge. I sailed twice around SF Bay near Alcatraz which was pretty rough for a bay.

If I had a sail boat, I would consider heading out to deep, blue water along the Gulf Coast past Yucatan, sticking close to the shore (Belize, etc.) until I make it to Fortaleza, Brazil. I've never made this trip, so I'd definately find "a few good men/women" to come... and though I don't own any functional guns at the moment, I'd be armed to the teeth.

Better that we stay and fight for your young ones. I have a feeling that it'd be best if we follow Ghandhi's example and protest peacefully - sit-down strikes on a massive scale, refuse to work, fight in the military, obey any "immoral" laws. The British empire was defeated with a handful of salt, according to what Ghandhi said at the end of their "salt march".

But it is hard to sleep nights lately, no?

...Hee hee...I can see it now....all hanging out on a 60 foot Ketch with teak decks and taking on any luxury yachts that have Republicans on board...Kind of like "Robin Hoods of the Sea?"....We'll tell them we are fundraising for the democrats and healthcare for all Americans while we rob them....

Yeah, before I became a whiz at changing diapers and breastfeeding while leaning into a car seat I was a pretty good sailor...SF Bay is pretty challenging, isn't it? It's so funny when people who have never come here and are very "cocky" about their sailing skills are very quickly humbled when trying to sail the SF Bay. The ebb and tides here and winds etc. are very deceiving. It makes racing fun...kind of like chess on water....I'm bummed the Swiss won the America's Cup...I was really hoping to have been able to see it "raced" on the Bay here....I think I'd have gone over to Angel Island or sat in the Marin Headlands and enjoyed the race from above...

When I did some ocean racing and cruising, we had firearms on board, you have to, especially in some parts of the world where quite literally, you are your own protector and there are "pirates"....I guess if I ever get to go sailing down near Chile and Patagonia heading around the south and heading to Brazil, I'll be sure to call you for crew someday :)

Yes, I'm "Staying" to fight for the young ones and for this country I love so much...I'm very active right now in fundraising, and brainstorming and working on projects with others in my community who won't sleep until Bush is defeated....one project is "bad babes" (http://www.badbabes.org ) and the then there is another that a friend started called "1000 Flowers" (http://www.1000flowers.org)...

Sleep these days is not much of an option...between being woken up every 2-3 hours by my little baby to breastfeed and then trying to keep up with other things, I tend to stay up at night and read, write and think....sometimes too much and I get overwhelmed and realize I better stop, go to bed, snuggle next to my baby and go back to Amazonia....

:hug:

I did SF Bay in a 23 ft and 26 ft sail boat. No self-tacking/easy rigging stuff. I sailed to Angel Island... if I could paste photos in this text field like you mentioned (I tried it but it doesn't work - I use a unix based Mac for video editing), I could show one of me with a nice CA honey on top of Angel Island.

You are DEFINATELY a more experienced sailor than I, though I do know 'port' from 'starboard', and I watched lots of Errol Flynn swashbuckler movies when I was a child. I told my mother that I was going to be a pirate when I was 4 years old! Remember, Southern Louisiana was a hot bed for pirates, including the infamous Jean Lafitte who help beat the shit out of the British at the Battle for New Orleans (where I actually found a real, 18th C lead slug when I was a kid).

As for firearms... I'm a pacifist, but I'm a dead shot. My great uncle who's 90 years old and still lives in New Mexico was a rancher and a gun maker, and still has a firing range. I could shoot all I wated as long as I made my own bullets (loaded black powder, firing pin, etc). So, I can handle firearms, but only as a necessity. You are right about certain places, where firearms are a must. When I was driving on the Pan American highway from Managua to Guancaste I was almost killed by banditos with AKs.

Ok, time for bed. Mein Deutch ist sehr schleck aber hablo Español muy bien e falou portugûes muito melhor. I'd make a handy shipmate, but I have much work to do here in the USA first... I'm trying to finish another grad degree, but it sure is hard being unemployed with no health insurance and with a democracy to save and all...

abraços

that is whati have been hearingthe last 6 months. i have a husband that can do all that. the thing, the economy would have to be taken down in process ergo the world economy, so if it ever got to that point money wouldnt be good anywhere. and the water source is limited.

it is funny cause survivalist on the right have always talked this with china thru u.n. being on border of mexico ready to invade, so to have the left now coming wit this scenerio. also lets ad the christian right and bush saying this is armegetton and not to be fearful,. rejoice the end of world and second coming of christ.

who is to know. from my sense it is always ours to chose and create. and fear, it is an illusion a creation. fear is not of the present, it is what is preceived can happen, it is an experience from past relived, but never in the now. someone above posts said they dont want to walk this in fear, cuase it feeds the energy, i agree. whatever comes,........find the higher in, and it will be walked in a stillness, and in that stillness, it is always ok. it is living it in fear, illusion, that a real pain is felt

....that's how I've tried to live my life...its proven to be important...

I really do believe that living in fear feeds the negative energy on this planet...whether we realize it or not, we are all inner-connected...

People who have read my posts here and elsewhere know that about my philosophy...a lot of my beliefs were shaped when I left a large software company in the NW and began to travel to Equador and Peru and both the Amazon and Andes...Many of the native tribes I met with, (Huarani, Achuar, Schuar..) all believe in the "Dream"...

I've posted this info before, but I'll share it again...I once sat with an old shaman under the Milky way one night following a ceremony the night before with Ayuhuasca (think Payote) and we talked about what I did in "my world" - I talked about the internet & computers (to a man who had never been out of the Jungle) and explained how people interconnected by knowing someones address...He smiled and said he understood...he explained that just as when you think of someone and they contact you the next day, its because you "connected with their energy"...he said that we all have this ability and that most people have forgotten how to do this, but at one time we all did. He said that this interconnection on an energy level is felt by all, even if we are unaware of it. He went on to explaining its relation to the "Dream" state....The natives in both the Andes and Amazon who speak the ancient Quechua language (the incan language - which is what he spoke to me in thru a translator) believe that the "Sleeping Dream state" is actually the real world and what we believe to be the "Waking World" is the real dream state. That is why each morning, families and entire villages in the Amazon share their "dreams" with eachother or when important decisions need to be made, they do so by taking Ayuahuasca to go into the dream state and then share the messages before making an important decision that affects the tribe.

:grouphug:

My life was changed after living with Shoshoni, Utes, Navajo etc. out West for 3 years as a teen. I can relate to your experiences with Shaman, not just in the USA but also in Brazil. Did you meet any Yanomami (on the border of Venezuela near the Orinoco) or Wari (in Rodônha near Bolivia)? The dream world and waking world are certainly important components of Amazonian social life.

I am currently taking a grad course on cannibalism... I know this word evokes horror and fear in folks who hear or read it, but eurocentric Westerners do not understand what it really means. Instead, they have been fed a steady diet of propaganda since the 16th century by the colonising monarchs. The REAL cannibals, in the negative sense, are people like Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle, etc.

One day, I hope you can return to Amazona, and bring your children with you.

:hug:

what a wonderful story. i have been exploring this world for a while now. mmmmmmmmm,.......yes to what you say

It isn't going to happen...there are to many of us with guns in America and our favorite pass time really is violence (just watch the local news).

I doubt party affiliation will mean anything when the lock-down/control order comes...most people will stock up on shotgun shells and wait for someone in authority to try and make them do something. HA! Good luck there! Americans don't take shit, at least not the ones I know!

If the BFEE tries to pull some martial law bullshit then they will eat dirt, every mother one of them. Bank on it.

!

...I agree w/ your premise about Americans, Militia etc fighting back...but I see more of a scenario in recent dreams of mine (when I can sleep) that involve the following scenario:

Sometime in the next several months, there are significant terrorist attacks both abroad and here in the US...significant in terms of the damage to transportation (airplanes, trains, shipping ports etc.),economic structures (ie. oil pipelines, communication centers, power plants etc.) and meanwhile to population (dirty bombs in city centers with large populations) and to food and water sources (contamination, poisoning etc.). A combinination of such attacks on a few or even all of these categories would have such a huge economic impact on our already weak and unsteady economy and would result in huge panic and problems on a scale most of us living our cushy, air-conditioned American lives couldn't comprehend. Just getting safe drinking water and food (in terms of availability in getting it to people) becomes a challenge and people are scared. The $$$ falls further especially in light of our booming deficit and debt and the gov't either prints more money, inflation sky rockets and there are most Americans who have refinanced their house out the kazoo that when their house/property is worth only 1/2 of what it is now, and have either lost their job or can't make money to pay for the house, food etc...then what? What if, dirty bombs went off in city centers and people can't go into cities or many are sick and dying? What if, then, our gov't, in all its wisdom declares "in the interest of national security" that a form of martial law takes place? What if this happens before the elections? What impact do you think that could have? What if you wanted to leave the country, but couldn't?

Think this can't happen? Look at the problems even recently our economy and most Americans suffered when gas prices went up...it affected people incredibly and its impact was felt not just at the pump, but at the Supermarket and elsewhere. That was nothing compared to what can happen to our "oil dependent" economy was suddenly hit w/ no Oil - wonder why Bush &Co. didn't want to tap into the Strategic Oil Reserve? Its because they "know"....Imagine the situation in Saudi Arabia getting so bad that attacks not just on workers but on the production & pipelines are damaged/destroyed or even the House of Saud falls and the ruling "tribe" doesn't want to send us our Black Gold...Many of us in California remember in 1989 the Earthquake in the Bay Area (Loma Prieta) and you couldn't find bottled water on any shelf anywhere. What if we all suddenely needed water & food? What if we can't even drive to find it?

Because of the above possible scenarios (which are not so unrealistic) while I try not to live in "Fear" but because I have a responsibility to care for my family and always have a "Plan B and C", I am seriously preparing for the possible scenarios (and no, I don't mean Duct Tape and Plastic Sheeting)...but seriously, we might all need to know how to grow plants, have a source of water, protein food source (chickens etc.) and "know how" to survive...even if its in a nice little neighborhood in America....possibly all of ours...

On the issue of guns: How wild that the "left" might actually be joining the Radical Right in its thinking....I actually under stand the founding fathers reasoning for the "right to bear arms"...and that's coming from a Mom who marched in the Million Moms March in Washington years ago....

"On the issue of guns: How wild that the "left" might actually be joining the Radical Right in its thinking....I actually under stand the founding fathers reasoning for the "right to bear arms"...and that's coming from a Mom who marched in the Million Moms March in Washington years ago...."

That is the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. Although I wouldn't classify those that are pro 2nd amendment as Radical Right. The reason for the "right to bear arms" should be more blatant now than ever. Our own government is who we need to be protected from the most, and the national guard' which is run by the government' won't do it.

As a historian I've learned quite a bit about world history - the most obvious being that when a society starts to fall apart, it turns on those in power first. That is the great mistake that the BFEE will be making. This is not 1930s Germany - true many Americans would be devastated by dirty bombs, loss of electricity and cars, but there are millions at the local level of politics that would rise up and help fix the situation. For almost 4 years now there has been a rising anger in this country, some of it misdirected at the Left because of ignorance by the Right. If we have one of those "what if" moments and the BFEE makes a power play it will result in their demise. History proves it to be, and we as humans just love to repeat the mistakes (or events) of the past. If America was a small nation with very little violence and very few guns then I might believe in the fact that we could be controlled militarily by Bush & crew, but it's not. America is almost 300 million people, with a good 1/2 owning guns and probably pissed off at what's been going on these last few years.

Let them try and repress us, it will be the last thing they ever do.

old to go to Canada, but I have seriously thought that, it Bush and Cheney and the other Hitler Youth should somehow win (steal) the election this year, I and my family might apply to the nearest British consulate for political asylum. I could just as easily swear my alliegence to the Queen as to King George the Crooked!

The seeds of Nazi/fascism is not BFEE. It is the racism and bigotry within a large group of Americans. Reagan, then both Bu$h's only encouraged this personality defect in their followers.

Bu$h is but a image of the America he represents. It is not Bu$h thats the enemy per sey, he is just the face of the enemy. The real enemy is the racism and bigotry. One or two generations of teaching the children has not erased this bigotry. It runs deep in our nation.

I will not disparage those that determine it cannot be opposed and determine to flee to a safe place. Sometimes if it becomes impossible to oppose, all you can do is run.

For me though, this is my home. I have no place to go. There is too much of my blood in this ground for me to leave. I will make my stand here. Remember us in you thoughts.

We can and will beat these cowardly bastards.A very many POWERFUL and significant Americans are making their voices heard and are not going to let these twerpy neocons pull any sort of coup. A very many prominent Republicans are taking a stand against BUSHCO. The latest of which is Patric Buchanan who has a new book coming out strongly condemning this group of traitors and cowards. Keep the faith. March on,do not give up or give in. WE ARE GOING TO WIN THIS ONE. Stop all this talk of leaving, we are winning BIG TIME. ...Oscar- Gee, I wonder why that strange looking helicopter is landing in my back yard. I never event heard it coming in. JUST KIDDING

Better watch out for parabolic microphones and roving wiretaps!

I like your 'tude dude!

From my cold, dead fingers will they pry my America!

it's been my experience that leopards NEVER change their spots!

Let's think of all the reasons that this scenario will NOT happen. Maybe that could ease some of your stress.

The population of Germany in the late thirties was about 65 million and in a contained area. The US is so much larger and more populous that it would take a vast Army to control.

We don't have a vast Army. We can't even control the tiny nation of Iraq. We can't even patrol our vast borders with Mexico and Canada. Also one would have to assume that the armed forces would go along with this business. I doubt they would.

There is no way the government could shut down the world wide communication we have now. Cell phones, internet, satellites...the scope of a conspiracy of this level would be so large that it would be impossible.

Corporations large and small like their lifestyle now. So does the vast middle class. That's why our citizens don't get more involved in politics. They have a pretty good lifestyle and could care less if it doesn't effect them.

How many citizens would really stay sheep-like? I don't even think many Republicans would bow down for a Nazi-style takeover. How would they benefit? In fact who but a small group would benefit?

Look at the documentaries of Hitler and notice the HUGE crowds of adoring, cheering people. Now look at Bush's TV appearances. He barely has hold of his base and he would have been driven out of office by now if the corporate media wasn't shamelessly propping him up.

They won't go easily and the mainstream media will try to help them every step of the way, but they are in some ways more like the Soviet Union's leadership at the fall of communism than they are like Hitler in the Thirties - incompetent ideologues that don't even understand how to deal with truth and reality. It might be they are at the desperate end of their movement, trying to hold on, but becoming more and more unpopular.

We are going to win this one and a very many powerful GOP types have had all THEY are going to take from BUSHCO. They have their own plans to ensure our Nation is NOT golng to be taken over by this inept and foolhardy Administration. ...Oscar

is already under control. with the current news as bad as it is, and only the few that take any notice, the fix is in.

it doesn't matter if they control us within the country. we will be fighting ourselves, not THEM. all they have to do is keep us in the pen. the freepers will blame the DUers, and vise versa, and as long as everybody is occupied...

as far as shutting down communication? please. that's quite literally the equivilant of flipping a switch. remember the east coast blackout?

suppose the cell phone and computer networks stay up, will you be able to afford access after we experience 10,000% inflation? when your life savings just bought a loaf of bread? when you cant afford a phone call, and besides, who you gonna call for help? 911?

our government has had half a century to learn and perfect the techniques of the nazis.

done a damned fine job of it, too!

Police forces are led by individuals--many who may be just as fed up as we are... So, while I am shaken, I think history has given us enough examples of the cyclical nature of bad and good times, that I remain hopeful.

I do consider the worst case scenario sometimes. But, I don't have the ready means to leave, given current circumstances...Then again, I'm not really afraid to die and I don't say this lightly or as a dramatic device. Those of you who have lost many close family members and friends, may understand my saying this... After awhile, that numbness doesn't totally go away...So, I will stay and fight for what is right. I think of those brave individuals of the French resistance and others who sought to defeat the Nazis from within. I hope that I would have their courage...I hope that I never have to find out for certain....

by a bunch of neanderthals and morons. If you have to live life in fear and run from things - it's not worth living. I'd rather be dead.

the reason why Hitler was able to establish as much power as he did was because he started out by fixing the German economy and giving people jobs, and restoring German national pride, badly wounded after the WWI defeat.


BushCo is DESTROYING the economy and is tarnishing the image of an American.

I've been reading the book The Coming of the Third Reich by Richard Evans. Some similarities do jump out at you; for instance, after the fire in the Reichstag, Hitler proclaimed the power to arrest people and hold them indefinitely without charges. But George Bush is no Adolph Hitler. There was no Cheney whispering in Hitler's ear, no Cheney who had to tell Hitler what he believed.

That said, I think the comparisons to Nazi Germany are not very productive. People do resist those comparisons; and there are enough differences that they have valid arguments. I think its most productive to go straight at Bush; the lies about critical information; the pointless lies - like lying about the air quality around the WTC; the suspensions of critical American rights - the Patriot Act. Educating people about these things should be enough to turn them against Bush. I argue these points all the time and see a good response.

People will resist comparisons to the Nazis. It's a waste of energy to go there. Go straight at Bush.

...but I think the similarities are becoming more evident. The Abu Ghraib photos, for example, hint at the atrocities seen in Germany in WW2.

Let's face it, when even Garrison Keillor is making reference to torture and government corruption in his Lake Wobegone talks, the nation's consciousness is showing signs of shifting.

it only took Hitler approx five PARAGRAPHS (the so-called "Enabling ACT", and he DID have help writing it!) to do what Dubya did in 300+ PAGES! But the effect is the same; the comparisons ARE necessary: nobody alive today under age 70 has even the remotest notion of how the Nazis worked. But Dubya does, because his grandfather was a Nazi sympathizer. The only reason I know anything about it is that I'm an historian-I picked up on it immediately!

Both sides of my family have been here since before the Revolution. I will never, ever leave. Ever.

Not to mention I think this stuff is alarmist. I was not born until the late 60s, but I imagine that the times must have been scary then too ... buses surrounding the White House, spying on protest groups, etc. We survived. We will make it through this.

n/t

"A ship of Fools"
Old black and white movie- there is a character
in the film that says exactly the same thing.
Unfortunately, he is Jewish and will soon be dead
at the end of the film...
BHN

Vietnam and CIVIL RIGHTS! It WAS a scary time! And if the racism doesn't stop, it'll be back, but 10 times worse than ANYTHING we saw in the '60's.

assasinations, the violence accompanying attempts to stifle the early civil rights movement (my parents were convinced civil war was inevitable), the ticking down of the doomsday clock predicting nuclear Armageddon, the nightly horror of Vietnam, the murder of innocent war protestors at Kent State...

So, only 20-30 years after the "Big War," all of this was going on. Put in perspective, all that is going on now may be part of an unfortunate cycle, but one that can end without the worst case scenario coming to pass....

Every time they test the waters with some new restriction "for homeland security" or to fight "the terrorists", they are emboldened by our complicity. Say they decide to round up HIV+ individuals and quarantine them "for our security". Who will fight against that? What if they decide to amend search and seizure laws "for our security" and start raiding houses at 2 a.m. without warrants? After all, this is a war on terror, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to be afraid of.

These scenarios may sound alarmist but they also creep the hell out of me. First they came for_____ and I said nothing, etc.

They always come for the plastic_turkeys last anyway. Remember they hate us for our Freedoms!

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2004/061904bombagain.htm
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/comments.php?id=P1063_0_1_0
(snip)
O'Reilly: Bomb Iraq Again!

Via Media Matters (via pontificator at Kos and Brad DeLong)

From the June 17 broadcast of The Radio Factor with Bill O'Reilly:

O'REILLY: Because look ... when 2 percent of the population feels that you're doing them a favor, just forget it, you're not going to win. You're not going to win. And I don't have any respect by and large for the Iraqi people at all. I have no respect for them. I think that they're a prehistoric group that is -- yeah, there's excuses.

Sure, they're terrorized, they've never known freedom, all of that. There's excuses. I understand. But I don't have to respect them because you know when you have Americans dying trying to you know institute some kind of democracy there, and 2 percent of the people appreciate it, you know, it's time to -- time to wise up.

And this teaches us a big lesson, that we cannot intervene in the Muslim world ever again. What we can do is bomb the living daylights out of them, just like we did in the Balkans. Just as we did in the Balkans. Bomb the living daylights out of them. But no more ground troops, no more hearts and minds, ain't going to work.
<...>
They're just people who are primitive.

I guess O'Reilly missed Shock and Awe and the siege of Fallujah just for starters.

Oh, wait. He wanted to bomb Fallujah more, too: "Problems continue for the U.S. Military in Fallujah. Why doesn't the U.S. Military just go ahead and level it?"

Does this mean the "liberation" thing is no longer a justification for the invasion? What was that invasion called? Oh, right. Operation Iraqi Freedom. Well, screw that, the ungrateful, primitive bastards. Just bomb the living daylights out of 'em.
(snip)

Some thirty years ago when I was still a teenager while we visting another relative out that way we droped by her house. She insisted we have some but we got to opt out, (told her we just got done with lunch).

She made us take it with us back to my older sisters house. My folks where also hicks but never ate that stuff. My sister just tossed it into the compost pile out back.

(they kind of look like rats to me)



http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~uias/astropics/2003/20030921/

http://www.melborponsti.com/rdetail.php?record=poss0008
We have 53,049 recipes in 14 major groups with 520 categories. Click 'Home page', upper right corner.

Possum Pot Pie

1 c Glazed huckleberries
3 Shots gin or moonshine
1 Possum
1 Pie crust with top
Sliced carrots & cabbage to taste
Cover a pan (or any implement you can put in a fire) with the bottom of your pie crust and place the possum in it. Add the huckleberries and carrots, and shred the cabbage over it. Close up the pie and bake until the neighbors' dogs come sniffing around to see what the wonderful smell is, or until the fire department arrives (whichever comes first). Remove from fire/oven, slice and enjoy.
(snip)

We eat nutria, opossum, frogs, alligators, turtles, crawfish and lots of other critters here in Louisiana. That's an interesting recipe for possum pot pie, though I'd add cayenne pepper and okra, and exchange the gin for rum.

I see a beetle in the foreground of the photo. Now, I've heard of some good Amazonian recipes...

(Yuck and double Yuck) I don't mind picking up one or two of them up and throwing them outside, but to eat :o

http://www.sdnhm.org/fieldguide/inverts/sten-fus.html



Stenopelmatus fuscus
Jerusalem Cricket

GRYLLACRIDIDAE

Description

Few insects in San Diego County attract more attention than the Jerusalem cricket. This black-and-orange-banded, modified sand cricket is one of the most distinctive-looking creatures found anywhere. Adults can reach up to 2 inches long (30-50 mm).

Commonly referred to as "potato bugs," even though they do not prefer potatoes and are technically not bugs, they are also called niña de la tierra (child-of-the-earth), stone cricket or chaco. Believed by some to be fierce and poisonous, this nocturnal cricket is actually non-aggressive and possesses no poison glands, although its jaws can inflict a painful bite.
(snip)
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0416_040416_eatingcicadas.html
Bugs as Food: Humans Bite Back

By Maryann Mott
for National Geographic News
April 16, 2004

Imagine sitting down to the dinner table and being served a bowl of thick, slimy larvae. It's enough to make most Americans' stomachs turn. But in other countries that same meal makes people's mouths water.

Entomophagy—the consumption of insects—has been around for thousands of years in some cultures. Today, it is estimated that more than half the people of the world eat a variety of flying, crawling, and biting bugs. Not only do these insects apparently taste good, but they're an inexpensive and nutritious food source.
(snip)
Monachelli agrees that Americans will eventually join the rest of the world and start consuming insects.

"It will be a resource that people are going to eat that will allow us to keep up with the increasing population," said Monachelli, who teaches an edible-insect class to schoolchildren. "Once people try it, they're going to realize it's not quiet as scary as they think."
(snip)(I am going to watch a few others do it first :scared: )

... in the back yard when we were young. We thought it was creepy, but cool.

When I was in Costa Rica, near the boarder of Nicaragua, about 10 years ago, I came across two Talamanca Indians that offered me a tarantula to eat. I respectfully declined but watched them burn off the hair and devour every last morsel, except for the fangs which they used to clean their teeth.

About 3 years later we were having a crawfish boil back home in Louisiana, when I was reminded of the prior incident. A young lady from California was visiting with some friends, who watched in utter disgust as we voraciously ate those mudbugs. I mean, I am REAL messy, devouring every crawfish in sight like a madman. When she saw me crack one in two and proceed to suck the brains and guts out she got sick. I only stopped laughing to eat more...

Now how am I different, in matters of food consumption, than those Costa Rican Indians? Not really. Maybe I'll eat a tarantula some day. Some tribes in the Amazon eat centipedes and caterpillars, larvae, etc. Well, if I can boil them in Zatarains crab boil, and spice it up with some garlic, corn, okra, and Cajun potatoes maybe I'll give it a try.

Edited for horrible, unforgivable errors.

We supposed to getting :scared: about terra or something, the bugs got me thinking it might just be better to stay inside where its safe for awhile afterall



The Child-of-the-Earth is more correctly called a Jerusalem cricket. Although quite common, they are shy and nocturnal in their habits so they are rarely seen. It has a striking appearance with its round, bald head with markings that form, with a little imagination, a smiling face.

The Navajo Indians call it Woh-seh-tsinni, meaning Old Man Bald Head.
(snip)
http://www.fagerlund.addr.com/miscellaneous_bug_questions.htm

What cute little fella, though not much for protein consumption. Thanks for the Navajo reference.

I guess we diverged from topic, though "elf" hasn't been back for a while. I hope she is feeling better. I've enjoyed this thread because it is the first one for me where I began to meet the regulars like yourself. I hope I haven't offended elf.

Hugs for you elf. Sorry for stepping on your thread.

By the way, how did you post the photo. I've asked in other threads (I tried the Lounge first after reading the DU FAQ), but only one person gave me a link to an upload site. Unfortunately at that site they have strict rules and delete accounts for anything they feel is offensive. I have a few photoshopped JPGs that are possibly offensive, if you love Rumsfeld or Ashcroft, that I want to post here.

Right click on the image, select copy image location (you might need to go the " view image" option first but probably not) after you selected copy image location go to where you want to put your image on the post and hold down "Ctrl" key and hit the "v" key (this simple paste in windows code). Then go to view image to see if it worked. Same goes for text or links. Highlight with your cursor and hit "Ctrl" and "C" this copies to the clipboard on your computer for which can then be copied to the post with "Ctrl" and "v"

...like a fine wine...(smile)

I have to admit, when in Amazonia, I didn't really like drinking the "Chicha" beer....Somehow, the fermented drink made from the maniock (spelling?) plant with the saliva of the tribal women, just doesn't rock my world like a good Microbrewery Beer...

:beer:

Eka! Não gosto o cuspe! If they could make chicha WITHOUT the spit I could hang, but this is just too gross for me. I'd rather eat live ants.

The ONE thing I missed while living there was a good microbrewery beer. We have have a bar in my neighborhood that's the best watering hole around; "Cooter Brown's" which has about 2-3 hundred beers/ales from all over the world. The first thing I did when I came home was go quaff a pint of Duvel and a liter of Chamay Blue label... love the Belgian monk ales! You should've seen me try to ride my bicycle back home.

But, the tribal girls can "rock my world" ANYTIME! Boy do I miss sleeping in a hammock... muitos saudades cara!


manioc

...How cool that you know about the world that I have been to...I wonder if more people could see these places and the people and if it would change them so profoundly as it did me....

I miss the stars and the sounds of the amazon...I hope to go back some day and bring my children when they are older....(gotta worry about the malaria and Yellow fever thingy...)but I know that I have a "home" there if I ever needed a place to go....

Here's pint of our favorite ales :toast:

I just heard my lil one rustling, so I'm going to say "adios and buenos noches" and look forward to chatting with you again sometime...

Remind me to tell you about the Achuar Shaman telling me about the destruction of Pachamama...didn't think much of it until lately...

.. e beijos e abraços pra seus pequenos.

...Schlaf Gut und Traume Suess... :boring:

BTW - did you see my "answer" to you about sailing....scroll up to the Pirates/Scalawag post...

Talk to you again soon Swamp Rodent....

Pachamama

If us or the world...there is a major difference between the 1930's and now - communication. The rulers need the communication lines to know and spy on their enemies as much as we need the lines to know them and educate others. It will be difficult and crippling for them to cut the lines. There is hope with communication. Knowing the enemy will be as difficult as it is now.

The big question is whether our wannabe rulers have friends in military nations who would aid them in our suppression. The other question is how much will other nations want to help us.

Was our only reason for freeing Europe the reason of economic stimulus, defense, or heart. What will be the reason that any nation would help us.

An out is a cross section of nations stepping forward as peace makers.

Young children do the bidding of the corporate-banking-military-constitution revisionists. How many young are there who will do it?

without checking with the person who sent it to you first. it's a violation of the person's privacy and trust.
:spank: don't do it again.

Anyone whose notion of "progress" is getting a response saying "I will NEVER judge the Germans again" is not someone who has any credibility for me.

This is such a vague post, anyway. What does it mean? Why is it supposed to be more scary than anything else? This historical moment is scary and there are some definite parallels with the rise of Nazism, but your friends vague foreboding sounds like a secular version of promise-keepers of apocalyptic watch wankings.

ni offense.

wake the fuck up, america. what will it take before americans wake the fuck up?

That's why we are here.

I just don't think that VAGUE paranoid warnings like "make an escape plan!" "nazis will look like boyscouts in comparison," warnings that DO follow the formula or the websites that prophesize the apocalypse, b/c they ALLUDE to some privileged knowledge (of history, of the present, of some secrets) but do not EXPLICATE them, are helpful.


Fear-mongering is what the administration and the media do to us daily. Why would we do this to ourselves? It does not help the fight that we are all facing.

i think that was the intent of this PRIVATE message our friend here decided to post publically. many of us here are awake, but i wouldn't say most. most just want bush out...then back to slumber they will go.
in any case, for some of us, an exit plan isn't apocalyptic...it's just practical. i know i can't take 4 more years of this.

Gustave Gilbert, a German-speaking intelligence officer and psychologist who was granted free access by the Allies to all the prisoners held in the Nuremberg jail. Gilbert kept a journal of his observations of the proceedings and his conversations with the prisoners, which he later published in the book Nuremberg Diary.
The following is an excerpt:

We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction.

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."