Forget peace with Al Queda! We need stealth assassins to take them out!

Strangle these bastards at every turn and get rid of them one at a time!. It would be much cheaper too.

hav e got the right people instead whole buildings....and civilians

If we did, tell me when?

.. but if al-qaeda consist of the people I saw cutting off a helpless human beings head while he begs for his life.. no thanks.

I'm sorry to sound this way, but I say we need to those people off the face of the Earth.

.. and it takes alot for me to talk like that about someone.

Heyo

And what do we do with the 2 or 3 that join up for every one of them we kill?

...there wouldn't BE 2 or 3 new recruits for every one we'd kill.

And if we funnelled the funds currently being wasted on missile defense into expanding human intelligence, you'd know to what address to send your special operations forces.

Bush is a miserable failure because he doesn't understand HOW to fight the war on terror. He is so locked into the Cold War paradigm, so inflexible, so incapable of learning and accepting new tactics, that he will continue to be the best thing that ever happened to Al Qaeda.

-MR

Or am I thinking of the Yankees?

and they swagger when they walk.

I hadn't heard anyone talking about making peace with Al Qaeda. :shrug: I'm not sure it's possible, in any case.

Who decides that a human being is a terrorist and deserves death? Will this be the same intelligence people that brought us bush's WMDs in Iraq? Maybe the ones that claimed OBL and Saddam were dating? Perhaps it was the ones that have targeted Iraqi weddings for bomb strikes?

said he was tired of swatting at flies. so he apparently tried to use a cannon...

if we took the hundreds of billions of dollars we wasted on iraq and put them into cia the al quada would be history already.

If we had used the money to improve CIA manpower etc. and combined that with targeted attacks (capture or kill) we could have gone after AQ in multiple locations. We also would have had money left over to take actions that would decrease recruitment and support. I suspect that we will now have to do what should have been done in the first place. We will end up spending another 150 billion plus whatever it is going to cost us to be in Iraq for the next 5 years.

yeah, like we can even find them.

FOGHORN THE ASSASSIN - "HEY YOU, I SAY YOU OVER THERE!" "I SAY THERE, I SAY I'M GOIN TO ASSASSINATE YOU!" "NOW HOLD STILL!" :evilgrin:

"Now hold on there son! I'm a dog... HE'S a rooster!"

Brilliant. Thank you.

Islamic men with nothing to lose in the ME and SE Asia, who hate America, Israel, and their allies, these guys aren't going to be in any shortage soon.

al-Queda is an umbrella organization, like the Boy Scouts. There is an administrative head, but it is pretty much window dressing.

you can't kill an idea or ideology. A man may die but what he stood for, good or bad, lives on. We have modern day Nazis, don't we. Look at the whole right wing in this country. Hitler may be dead but ...

We could kill Osama right now and as Richard Clarke so aptly said in his book and in interviews, it won't matter. There are thousands who think as he does and who will gladly pick up where he leaves off.

Terrorism is not one nation or one man. It is a complex of ideas that withstands war and targeted assassinations.

...and, in a sense, they can be defeated, though not easily.

Main Entry: meme
Pronunciation: 'mEm
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of mimeme, from mim- (as in mimesis) + -eme
: an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from person to person within a culture

Christianity is an excellent example of a persistant meme which has either defeated or assimilated many competing memes. It can be done, just not necessarily in the manner or timeframe you might expect.

we undercut their membership drives by stopping the fool shit that we do that makes regular folks in the developing world consider violent resistance as a viable alternative.

Address the root of the problem rather than burning a leaf or two.

Yeah. That is an intelligent idea.

:silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly:

http://www.realultimatepower.net/

:silly: :silly: :silly: :silly: :silly:

The future of warfighting better be based on killing the high level command and minimizing - and eliminating - civilian casualties. Assassinating a democratically elected leader should be forbidden unless Congress declares war per the Constitution.

If the warfighters can't follow these rules, we'll have to eliminate them.

.. that Hitler would not be on the "To Be Assassinated' list.


What do you suggest should be done to "democratically elected" leaders in democratic countries who do kill large #'s of civillians?

...since our democratic country's leader was not democratically elected...although his efforts have killed large #'s of civilians. Two out of three ain't bad, I guess.

After the US declared war on Germany, Hitler would have been assassination target number one.

...I personally don't think we will ever have enough ammunition to do the job, not even if someone spotted us a couple hundred years.

By the way, your idea might have worked right after 911, because that's the way most of our military was trained to respond over the last couple of decades. But thanks to the Bonehead-in-Charge we'll NEVER be out of the jam the NeoCons have gotten us into.

we should have sent in teams to get the leaders. A poster asked up above how do we know who was the good guy or the bad guy... Hey..it ain't perfect... But here's my take.... We killed thousands of innocent victims in Afghanistan and Iraq. If we killed hundreds by assasination that were innocent, I say it's better than thousands... Is it horrible to kill innocents?...of course it is... I'm just saying far less would have died if this was a covert war instead a mother of all bombs war!

MHOP

You would oppose any use of the military, even in self defense, any use of police, even to chase murdering thugs, etc.

That only works in Utopia my friend.

overused, especially in a culture willing to see others die for the culture's excesses.

...how long did you serve in the military? Do you have any family and/or kids of your own?

If it was your family that was getting blown to bits for no apparent reason other than living in the U. S., how would you feel then?

...East. I'll be real anxious to hear about the first child you kill.

By the way, do you have any children of your own?

...not even close to "Utopian".

How about you, "my friend", have you served in the military?

Freaky

because the dumb ass conservatives would rather go in and kill everybody in site.... Not even close Pal...

the guilty not the fewest number of innocents. Given their massive conflicts of interest and hidden agendas would you REALLY trust the CIA/FBI etc to decide who needs to die????

Make a special quick response legal/congressional whatever team to make the decisions... Like I said...would you prefer the Bush way or the covert way?

what's obviously a bad one, but it seems to me it's not much better.
What about addressing the root causes of the problem? I refuse to believe that anyone is born to be a 'terrorist.' Something made them crazy, just like people are innately atheist and get indoctrinated into one or the other wacky belief modes. Something CAUSES these mental
instabilities.

No human has ever been born a racist, bigot, or terrorist. Somebody has to teach it.

Bad guys are bad guys.... From the Mafia to the terrorists... It's all about Power.... They want it and so they reek havoc on the innocent to get it. Sorry but I don't think reaching out to the thugs who were behind 9/11 with an olive branch is quite the way to go... You kill them....Period!

what of the evildoers in the West Wing? Past covert CIA operations and assassinations are directly responsible for the BLOWBACK we're experiencing now. As for "bad guys are bad guys," we surely have our share of bad guys here ... native born, allegedly patriotic, Christian Americans? Who decides who's good and who's bad? YOU? What you advocate is pure lunacy and only begets a vicious cycle of killing.

Are you fucking defending Al Qaeda? Are you SHITTING me???

This is fucking RIDICULOUS. AL QAEDA KILLED 3,000 AMERICANS on 9/11. They need to DIE. ALL of them.

That's not conservative. That's common sense. If someone is trying to kill you, you kill them first.

Invading Iraq was stupid as hell. It was not justice, and it did not help us at all. But this NEEDS to be done. There is NO question.

and that stops it? That's black/white, with us/against us, cowboy thinking. No, killing it begets more killing. Osama was OUR boy -- trained and armed by US! Saddam was our man -- armed and coddled by US. The list goes on ... Kill them, sure. But guess what ... the hatred their people feel toward us for aiding and abetting their terror and then turning on them and punishing the same innocent people (sanctions, bombs, targeted strikes ...SHEESH) DOESN'T DIE. Osama's ideas wouldn't die with him. There are thousands of others ready able and willing to step up to the plate.

Seems you should look at why. Yes, innocent people died on 9/11 but the US (and that means indirectly us) kills innocents across the globe everyday. It's blowback time. Look at Iran, Iraq, Chile, Nicaragua, Honduras ... You fucking reap what you sow. And you can flex your muscle and pull out your big guns and go after your designated evildoers but that won't stop RESISTENCE and that won't end REVENGE.

What the US did in Chile, Iran, Nicarauga, Honduras, etc had NOTHING to do with 9/11. Those actions cannot be defended or justified, but they didn't really have anything to do with the events of 9/11.

The people that commited those acts of terrorism on 9/11 really were not doing it for any noble beliefs. Not that it would matter. Killing 3,000 innocent civilians cannot be justified and statements like "reap what you sow" are incredibly simplistic.

Now, I believe in blowback. The US was playing with fire, and when it supported the Mujahadin and it came back to bite us in the ass. I also believe that the US helped create, along with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, a monster, that MUST be stopped.

How would you prefer to deal with these fanatics (and yes that is all they are)? I agree that military action is not the only way to take care of this problem. The concerns of the millions of people in that part of the world must be addressed (ie the IP conflict), and we must encourage their governments to modernize, democratize, and educate their populations.

yeah, right. Our current democracy (especially under Bush) and public education system is a model for the world. Yeah, sure. Whatever you say.

You simplistically miss a big point. I sited the Central American nations as examples of US "interventions" gone bad, pure evil meddling, not as the cause of 9/11 though the principle is the same. The history of this country is full of hatred for non-whites and non-Christians (heck, even some Christain denominations), genocide, slavery, land theft, broken treaties, imperialism and general fucking with other people.

And guess what ... some where along the way, some how, all your shit comes back to haunt you. PERIOD!

... John Walker Lindh were able to join up, as apparently many other Americans.

The reason we have not infiltrated them is that the CIA/whoever has made no effort to do so.

I see where you're coming from, but this is pretty chilling. (not that it hasn't already been done if Chimpy's claim "...many of them are no longer a problem" is true)

Who gets to decide which potential 'terist' gets wacked? You? Not me, I'm not omniscient. :eyes:

that's what I say....

You gonna tell us who the head of the snake is? You think an org of thousands of people who are willing to sacrifice their lives is just going to shrivel up and go away?

Get real.

then:

1) Adopt a foreign policy which doesn't favor Israel oppression of the Palestinian people

2) Pay massive reparations for the 500,000 deaths which resulted from sanctions in Iraq.

3) Deal with the "nation of Islam" with respect for traditional differences in culture and tolerance for a different way of life.

That's all you need to stop al Qaeda dead in it's tracks. Fanatics? That's a RW myth--don't fall for it. They're at war, and so called "terrorism" is the only way they have to fight back.

err..OK... And what about the other Al Queda senior members? You know..the ones who will seek revenge for Benny's death? You don't think Al Queda is infiltrated with fanatics? You don't think that Al Queda wants nothing more than a Taliban like Saudi Arabia? Boy you sure give Al Queda the benefit of the doubt! And don't fucking preach to me about Right Wing myths ... WTF..you think I'm some kind of cherry politico!

anyone who doesn't adhere to your value system? Should we take out the "Taliban like Saudi Arabia" while we're at it?

And yes, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Believe it or not that's a fairly democratic policy.

Hey...maybe it's their strategy to win a war but to fly a plane into a building or blow youself up on a bus, me-thinks that's pretty fanatical.... AND ALL ALONG KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE!

There is no defense for the 9/11 suicide pilots, and the fanatics who kill innocent people...

If my children were destroyed by Israeli rockets, count me in. Poof! I'm a fanatic!

and I consider their actions fanatical. don't you?

except for killing OBL.

You need to do some research on al Queda and Wahhabism. It's not just the west they're opposed to - they consider any other Muslim sect outside of their's heretical. They're just as willing to kill Muslims, and have done so. So much for the nation of Islam.

RW myth? That's so far off base I don't even know what to say. You flat out don't know what you're talking about.

Moreover, how influential are they,...really,...beyond what EXTRA attention they get via,...guess who?

Reverse roles. Take our McVey, multiply it a hundred-fold,...

Aren't you sick of being manipulated by any "elite" handful of power-mongering asswipes,...from whatever walk of life?

I am.

I am sick of witnessing so much manipulation of the worst of humanity rather than an investment in the best of humanity!! Makes me g*ddamn sick :puke:

Yes, they consider Muslim sects outside their own heretical. But the violence they preach is in direct retaliation, and in defense of, colonialist attacks on Muslims going back to the 1917 occupation of Iraq by Great Britain. They attack the Saudis because they see them as being corrupted by colonialism, straying from true Islam, welcoming exportation of Muslim wealth. I have no doubt that had Native Americans had the resources, we would have been experiencing "terrorism" one hundred years ago. You get pissed on long enough...

Yeah, they're fanatics, they're just crazy blah blah blah. Myth, and chiefly a RW one. If you want to buy in be my guest.

conform to their narrow ideological view of the world. They're religious fanatics, who would gladly hand your head to you on a plate, given the chance.


http://www.infoplease.com/spot/terror-qaeda.html

"The principal stated aims of al-Qaeda are to drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia; destroy Israel; and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East. Bin Laden has also said that he wishes to unite all Muslims and establish, by force if necessary, an Islamic nation adhering to the rule of the first Caliphs.

According to bin Laden's 1998 fatwa (religious decree), it is the duty of Muslims around the world to wage holy war on the U.S., American citizens, and Jews. Muslims who do not heed this call are declared apostates (people who have forsaken their faith).

Al-Qaeda's ideology, often referred to as "jihadism," is marked by a willingness to kill "apostate" —and Shiite—Muslims and an emphasis on jihad. Although "jihadism" is at odds with nearly all Islamic religious thought, it has its roots in the work of two modern Sunni Islamic thinkers: Mohammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Sayyid Qutb.

Al-Wahhab was an 18th-century reformer who claimed that Islam had been corrupted a generation or so after the death of Mohammed. He denounced any theology or customs developed after that as non-Islamic, including more than 1,000 years of religious scholarship. He and his supporters took over what is now Saudi Arabia, where Wahhabism remains the dominant school of religious thought.

Sayyid Qutb, a radical Egyptian scholar of the mid-20th century, declared Western civilization the enemy of Islam, denounced leaders of Muslim nations for not following Islam closely enough, and taught that jihad should be undertaken not just to defend Islam, but to purify it."

I get mine from the source: al Qaeda's statements and training manuals. Here's one from 5/21/03:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3047903.stm

Read carefully for the reason they are attacking us.

onedit: date of statement

Do you sing their praises, WT?

Yes, I know, it's all western propaganda, and deep inside Osama and his buds are just a bunch of warm and fuzzy fun lovin' guys (no girls allowed), who think killing people for God is the ticket.

I think there is a reason behind their actions which is totally misrepresented in the media.

"Killing people for God" is a perfect example. I guess people have a really hard time admitting that 9/11 is, to some degree, reaping the seeds we have sown.

that doesn't justify Al-Queda's response anymore than it justifies the Bush administration's or American foreign policy prior to Bush. It doesn't justify the Saudi monarchy encouraging the rise of Wahabiism and anti-western fanaticism to take the heat off themselves. It doesn't justify the madrassas teaching hate in Pakistan.

Bin Laden wants to overthrow the dictatorships in the ME and replace them with.... fundamentalist Islamic states - where, (like Cheswick says) rape victims are killed for bringing shame on their families and women are beaten for showing their faces in public. A totalitarian religious state - what a noble goal... Al Queda's solution to the attempted western hegemony in the ME is worse than the problem.

Just because one side is wrong, that doesn't make the other side right. It's possible for both sides to be wrong.

Both sides are wrong. Now who is going to start the process of ending the violence? Clearly al Qaeda is not. And IMO it's equally clear that *only* attempting to eliminate al Qaeda will be equivalent to throwing gas on the fire.

I'd like to see your source where al Qaeda advocates a "totalitarian" religious state. Israel is a religious state. Pakistan is a religious state--the official name is "The Islamic Republic of Pakistan". But (again IMO) that is a straw man argument (I'm sure Pat Robertson, in his dreams, would LOVE a fundie state where all the "queers" are sent to hell). There is no evidence whatsoever that al Qaeda's violence has religious fanaticism as its root.

religious fanaticism as its root."

Did you even read Bin Laden's fatwa, or even the statement of his you posted? What's your definition of fanaticism?

I don't understand how you can say it isn't. Bin Laden's own statements make it clear that his political motivations are based in his religious beliefs. How can you deny his own words?

some people here only seem to see the evil in others and proclaim that such evil is de novo rather than ad hoc. They don't seem to see any historical preludes and US & British responsibility for the situation we're all in today. They forget or cast a blind eye to the abuses of Western and Christian imperialists.

The media paints a simplistic picture: we were attacked out of the blue for no reason, they're evil while we're good, they're inspired by their evil religion while we just want to spread democracy ... blah, blah, blah. Crap, crap, crap.

Well, it ain't that simple; 9/11 was indeed BLOWBACK. And we're sowing more lasting seeds now in Iraq.

did in Afghanistan when they were in charge. Women were terrorized (that's right - terrorized) by these FANATICS. Their bodies butchered in the name of purity, couldn't go to school, couldn't go to work, couldn't go to doctors, beaten if they showed an ankle in public. They were animals.

Let me know when Western and Christian imperialists try to do the same. This country (US) may not be perfect and as much as I detest the chimp and his merry band of theives, I'm not going to sit back and and say the Islamic fundamentalists are merely misunderstood.

Just curious.

targeted assassinations would change everything? The Taliban evolved from the US sponsored and trained muhajadeen.

Fundamentalists of all persuasions are BAD, I agree. And I'm not saying that Islamic ones are misunderstood. They are horrible to anyone who doesn't adhere to their narrow world view. But we are not blameless and our history is rife with hatred, intolerance and evil acts, too. BTW, where were we, the US officially that is, when Mavis Leno (yep, Jay the NBC whore's wife) was speaking out against the horrors of the Taliban? We were giving them $43 million of your and my tax dollars.

My point is that US 'interventions' wreak havoc with indigenous peoples and create blowback for us, the citizenry. Then gov't officials who sponsored such interventions and created such a mess tell us, the people, that "they" (take your pick of who the they is but they are conveniently never white* since WWII) hate us because we're good and free. It's racist, imperialist bullshit.

* my father fought in WWII, and I will never forget his bitter stories of how much better German POWs were treated than Negro soldiers. So much for the greatest generation and America the Good.

family and beat women for not having their face covered are fanatics. They don't do any of these things because of our policies. They do these things because they are living in a state of group insanity where they want to be the top of a totalitarian dog pile. They are no different than the communists in cambodia or the nazi;s in germany. They are simply using a different philosophy to obtain their brand of brain washed citizenry.

al Qaeda advocates burning to death rape victims, etc. Al Qaeda is not the Taliban. This is a media construction.

The US should be tirelessly working worldwide for fundamental human rights. At the same time we need to respect cultures that are different from our own, even to the point of realizing that democracy may not be a sustainable form of government in some cultures (at least now).

terrorism has been with the human race forever and ain't going away. Ideas and ideology don't die because of war against one nation or targeted assassinations of some (who decides??) people. This is loony thinking.

BTW, it is many of our CIA-backed assassinations and other covert operations of the past that are responsible for the hatred people feel toward us and for BLOWBACK. Some people never learn!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3825863.stm

Unless it's a hydra. Which Al Quaeda is. In which case you could be a super ninja head cutter offer and you'd still be fucked.

Let the CIA find out the heads of the cells.

Kill the leaders in the middle of the night, leave no trace other than the dead body. Leave no notes, nothing.

I don't think there'd be many volunteering for the leader's job after a few of those...

Osama Letter


In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory"

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan." Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?

Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you? As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you?

The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years.

The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel.

The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily. (ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history.

The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon. (c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question: Why did they attack us in New York and Washington? If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all. It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest. We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object. Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws. What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you. If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise."

The Nation of honour and respect: "But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers."

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers"

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life: "Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers."

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised: "It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it."

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty."

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance. If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace.

If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy. This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

And by convert, to HIS brand of Islam only.

let us know if this is an official trumad fatwa. ;-)

god take all the Mideast wars,the back door dealings with Saudi, the weapons sold to Israel at a discount and the huge compensation given to oil execs..
Take all that pissed away money, give it to the top 5 schools in America and mandate that they find ways to reduce fossil fuel consumption by 30% in 5 years. Then..

GET THE HELL OUT OF OTHER COUNTRIES INTERNAL AFFAIRS!! this is what has caused all of our troubles over the years. And for what?
Cheap gas that is basically poisoning us anyway?

And how could we truly know who they are? Or, should we just have any Muslims murdered?

When you get back from your mission, let us know how it went.

Because they flip out and chop people's heads off. You can't see a ninja until it's too late.

al-Qaeda would leave us alone and we wouldn't need assassins to get rid of anyone. Is this so hard to understand?

Let's say we let al-Queda accomplish it's goals; a Taliban like dictatorship over the entire Middle East, millions of brain washed "Wahabi Youth", ready and willing to die for the greater glory of Allah, and control of most of the world's oil reserves, without which western civilization would pretty much collapse.

Or do you have a different scenario in mind? What do you think would be the end result of our laissez faire?

Trying to compare Nazism and al Qaeda is pure folly. The two phenomena have nothing to do with one another.

Nazism was largely a product of a specific moment in history. Combine the natural obedient nature of the German people, the humiliation of the Treaty of Versailles, latent anti-Semitism and economic ruin of the Great Depression -- and you have a perfect moment for the Nazi party to take control. Having studied a great deal of history from that era on my own, I would argue that the Nazis would have fizzled out and died off without all of these factors coming together. Nazism (and to a greater degree, fascism) was also an effect of a Europe that was evolving from rivalries between competing nation-states into a more modern entity more concerned with a common, prosperous future (like the EU of today). It experienced success in some countries because of the way that it focused on the ideals of nationalism and the superiority of their culture, as opposed to cooperative efforts.

Al Qaeda, OTOH, is largely a backlash against the current modernization process of the Middle East. In fact, it is a movement that would largely be fizzling out, if it were not for the foreign policy of the United States that serves to legitimize it in the eyes of much of the Arab and Islamic world. It is a backlash AGAINST modernization and societal evolution currently underway in the Islamic world, as evidenced by increasing literacy and declining birth rates.

I'm saying that completely ignoring a situation that could grow to threaten our civilization, (like Nazism eventually did), might not be the way to go.

That the west has been complicit in the rise of Al-Queda doesn't help much, particularly our current administration's ham-handed attempts at... whatever it is they're attempting - (I still haven't been able to figure out what Bush's foreign policy goals really are, though I have my suspicions).

I mostly agree with your assessment of al-Queda and their eventual fate if left alone to battle the forces of modernization. There are two places where I don't believe this argument holds up. To my knowledge literacy isn't increasing and birthrates aren't declining in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, and those places are where Al-Queda is strongest.

The Saudi's have oil and Pakistan has nukes, so it's very much in the interest of the west that these nations not fall under the influence of a movement totally inimical to our interests. Which is why I support western intervention to prevent this from happening, although, once again, BushCo's ideas on intervention are making things obviously worse.

First, I am glad that you clarified that you were not comparing Nazism and al Qaeda directly. I perceived that you were in your earlier post, and that's why I responded the way I did.

I'm saying that completely ignoring a situation that could grow to threaten our civilization, (like Nazism eventually did), might not be the way to go.

I'm not saying that either. However, what I AM saying is that we should be careful that we don't abandon the ideals of civilization (rule of law, respect for life, etc.) in our quest to pursue the perpetrators of terrorist attacks, otherwise we may only cause to hasten the decline of our own civilization in the process. Efforts against al Qaeda should be more on the level of international law enforcement and intelligence-gathering. It also would require that we adopt a stance as a much more evenhanded player in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, along with ceasing our support of authoritarian regimes throughout the Middle East and our continual poking into internal affairs in that part of the world out of petroleum concerns.

When I see someone espousing such unthinking nonsense as an assasination policy, obviously without any concern as to negative consequences (of which there are a myriad), I cannot help but get a little riled up.

I mostly agree with your assessment of al-Queda and their eventual fate if left alone to battle the forces of modernization. There are two places where I don't believe this argument holds up. To my knowledge literacy isn't increasing and birthrates aren't declining in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, and those places are where Al-Queda is strongest.

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are somewhat different cases than, say, Iran, for many reasons. First, birthrates are actually beginning to decline a bit in Saudi Arabia, although they still remain a little over five children per family. Also, Saudi Arabia is considerably further behind on the "modernization curve" than other nations off the Arabian Peninsula. SA was really just a bunch of nomadic tribes until the discovery of oil, which led to fabulous wealth without the societal institutions to manage it -- contrasted with the rich history of civilization in Mesopotamia and Persia. This probably helps explain the reason why al Qaeda is as prominent in SA as it is. The thing is, do we continue to provoke it to attack Western targets, or do we instead enact policies to not further inflame hostilities, which result in its turning more inward toward SA (where the majority of their attacks still take place)? Obviously oil plays a large part in this.

WRT Pakistan, most of the area you're describing is in the mountains bordering Afghanistan. Pakistan is much more modernized in the urban centers, but almost medieval in the mountain areas. Part of the problem surrounding Pakistan's fundamentalism is due to the lack of funding of educational opportunities for poorer segments of the population. The result is that the Mosques moved in and now all the children learn is a very strict interpretation of the Quran. A multinational aid effort could probably go a long way over time toward relieving this problem. In the short term, I'm not so certain that the idea of a military dictatorship walking a tightrope between US pressures and fundamentalists is a good solution -- it seems to only be creating more tension in the region. Perhaps the recent ouster of the BJP in India will help relieve the nuclear tension on the subcontinent, but it still has a long way to go WRT internal tensions.

al-Qaeda attacked us because of our policies, greed and mass-murder in several countries. Or are you one of those Fox viewers who think they attacked us because 'they hate our freedoms'?

Is that the best you can do?




ps - are you saying that al Queda was justified in blowing up the WTC?

No one is justifying 9/11, but giving the real reasons behind the al-Qaeda attack.

If I list the reasons behind the Iraq war (oil, American hegemony in the region and a family revenge) I am not saying AT ALL that Bush was justified in invading the country.

You insult me, then expect me to "raise the level of discussion"? Why should I reply to you politely?

You think I'm not aware of the reasons behind the al-Queda attacks?

Besides, what does al-Queda have to do with Iraq in the context of this thread? You're the one conflating Iraq and al-Queda vis a vis Fox, not me.

This thread is about using violence to respond to violence, which never works, it only fuels more violence. Look at Israel and Palestine.

By addressing the real cause of the violence against us on 9/11, which is the illegal American presence in the Middle East and other parts of the globe, one is not 'justifying' or defending the actions of al-Qaeda on that day, as you accused me of doing.

I used Iraq as another example of how one can simply list the reasons behind an invasion or attack without defending or justifying such invasions or attacks.

prior to 9/11? Any bases we had there were with the approval of the host nation. The 1st Gulf War had the approval and support of the UN.

How does addressing the real cause of violence against us help when we're dealing with a group of people willing to bomb embassies and fly hijacked airplanes into buildings filled with innocent people? Al Queda's ultimate goals don't just stop at driving the US from the middle east (and let's not forget Indonesia and SE Asia, where they are also active). They want to impose a fundamentalist Islamic state on those places, establish Sharia law, and kill any Muslims who don't agree to their version of Islam, which includes all Shiites, BTW.

Yes, I agree, the US would do well to approach solving the problem differently than Bush has, by bombing everything in sight and attacking countries that have nothing to do with the threat of international terrorism - but we can't stand by and let Al-Queda destabilize the Islamic world when the result of that destabilization would be a disaster for us. It's just not a realistic option.

The US does not belong in the Middle East AT ALL. The presence of US forces in Saudi Arabia is the reason Bin Laden hates us and why he plotted 9/11.

The US has been illegally supporting Israel so it can continue its butchering of Palestinians and the theft of their land.

The US financed Saddam in his war against Iran, etc. etc.

What other evidence of US crimes against humanity in the Middle East do you need? These crimes are, separately, 10 times worse than 9/11.

Al-Queda? US forces were in Saudi Arabia at the invite of the Saudi Arabian government. Maybe not the best idea in the world, but not illegal. Trampling on Bin Laden's religious sensibilities certainly didn't give him the right to murder US citizens.

Why do you feel US "crimes" are worse than anyone else's?

If you think the US military belongs anywhere in the world aside from its own land, you are part of the problem, and I'm afraid I've been wasting my time all along with you. Imperialism is not an option.

Please do not try to find reasoning for American atrocities all over the globe. And please read some Noam Chomsky.

I've both read many of his works and seen him speak. Because I don't agree with you means I haven't read Noam Chomsky? That's a pretty strange leap of logic...

Where have I tried to find reasoning for American atrocities? What are you talking about?

You sure have a penchant for insulting people and thinking that qualifies as some kind of valid argument.

Imperialism is not an option. OK. I never said it was. I said isolationism is not an option.

Where does fighting transnational terrorism cross over into imperialism? I've made it pretty clear in this thread that I don't support Bush's tactics in fighting terrorism (and that includes the whole Iraq mess, which is a whole different subject). Every nation has the right to defend itself against terrorism, especially of the sort encouraged by Bin Laden.

you would never write “we can't stand by and let al-Qaeda destabilize the Islamic world when the result of that destabilization would be a disaster for us.”

The most powerful destabilizing force in the Middle East is the US and Israel.

The US is not fighting terrorism, it's creating it, on purpose. It needs terrorism now that the the Soviet Union is over.

Then you write another winner: “Trampling on Bin Laden's religious sensibilities certainly didn't give him the right to murder US citizens.”

Do you think ALL America did was trampling on Bin Laden’s religious sensibilities?? Don’t make me laugh. America has mass-murdered civilians, destroyed whole cities and stolen Middle East natural resources for decades, and for corporate profit alone.

Then you ask “Where have I tried to find reasoning for American atrocities? What are you talking about?”

I am talking about your defense of American atrocities by asking:

“Why do you feel US "crimes" are worse than anyone else's?”

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS TO LEAVE THE MIDDLE EAST NOW!!

Before Iraq that might have worked. Iraq was "jumping the shark" as far as the Muslim street was concerned. By making war on nations instead of pursuing criminals we lost what little credibility we had with those people.
Indeed, if we had produced the evidence that the Taliban required for OBLs handover we'd have been in better shape pr wise. Ancient rules of hospitality are part of Islam and to give a guest over to an enemy is serious buisness. Not saying that the Taliban would have given him up but our case would have been stronger. If we really had a case.
Any way you look at it we're screwed.

Yes, I said that correctly. Your fallback on violence is a childish response to a problem that you clearly do not understand.

Al Qaeda is an organization fueled on two fronts -- one being the meddling of the United States in the Middle East out of petroleum and geopolitical interests, and the second being the current modernization process taking place throughout much of the Middle East.

So long as the US continues to poke a stick in the eye of many of the people in the Middle East, al Qaeda will continue to only grow. You can't "cut the head of the snake off", because you aren't dealing with a snake. It's more like the ancient Greek hydra -- you cut off one head, and two more spring out in its place.

However, if the US pulls away from its long-standing policy of attempting to control petroleum interests in the Middle East, al Qaeda will not shrivel up and die. Rather, it will increasingly turn its wrath inward, striking more against the governments of the Middle East. However, in this instance, it will be very much on the decline -- as the process of modernization is already well underway throughout the Middle East, as evidenced by declining birth rates and increased literacy. Al Qaeda will whither and die in this scenario, because it is a fundamentalist movement fighting against an irresistable force -- the force of modernization.

Al Qaeda is really only powerful at all because the United States has helped to make it powerful. Fighting against it only helps to legitimize it within the Arab world. Acknowledging it for what it TRULY is, and engaging in international law enforcement cooperatively with the other nations of the world, would give the possibility of reducing it to the flailing, failing movement that it really should be.

A good start would be to put Khalid Sheikh Mohammed on trial, in the US...due process and so on...

That's how a democracy should react, not torture him in a foreign country.

I would like to add what is referred to in the language of music as a "plagal cadence"; known more popularly as the "amen cadence" which consists of the "four" chord to the "one" chord.

All together now..."AAAAA-A-A-MEEEEEEEEEN"

And yes, you can also get a witness.

Great post and thank you for your insightful input to this otherwise reactionary and decidedly knee-jerk reaction to any violence posed against 'muricans. You'd think more people around here would "get it". :eyes:

But my point is......... The Bush Admin continues to use Saddam's al Queda connection as one of the excuses of going to war.... AND al Queda is responsible for 9/11, yes?

I'm not some simpleton that does not understand the complexities of the situations that you point out in your great post. I get it, I really do. BUT! Here we are a couple of years after 9/11 and we are mired in a never ending battle in Iraq and Afghanistan.....

My take on this whole fucking mess is that we should focus solely on the al Queda and take them out. HOW! By killing them... How, by assassinating them. Would it cure the problem? It would if we started implement some of the things you discussed above. The point is, the leaders of al Queda must pay for what they did to us on 9/11.

Now, to finish my thought on my top paragraph. Would we be in the mess we are in right now and would we have lost 800 American lives and thousands of innocent Iraqi lives if we would have taken my approach? No... No....No..... God damn we had most of the world's support behind us after 9/11. The covert Op's we could have together would have been a devastating force against al Queda terrorist around the globe. Bush fucking blew it...

I'm ranting now.... Look...I'm not saying we should allow open assassinations against anyone we don't like... I'm simply saying we kill fuckers who kill 3000 innocent people. Simplistic yes, but it's better than what we got now... MHOP

Will these people be subject to a trial prior to assasination -- you know, like a nation that respects the RULE OF LAW would do -- or will they simply be killed off in the dark of night on the word of one person?

See, there's a VERY slipperly slope you're engaging in here, trumad. As far as I know, there's one nation that regularly engages in this kind of "assasination policy", and I think that their overall results are less than stellar in the grand picture.

Don't give in to the temptation to toss aside the better aspects of civilization out of fear and a desire to hunt down those whom you perceive to be threatening it. The best way to save civilization is to abide by its institutions, especially under the most trying of circumstances. Rather than engage in stealth assasinations, why not engage in international cooperative efforts in law enforcement and intelligence-sharing, and capture these people and bring them to trial?

I'm simply saying we kill fuckers who kill 3000 innocent people.

Last I checked, those 19 people were already dead themselves. I understand what you're saying WRT those responsible for the planning and funding of these kinds of missions, but if we are to remain (or regain our status as) a civilized nation of laws, then we must resolve to abide by those laws. Otherwise, we remain capable of slipping into a savagery not much different from those who oppose us.

Your underlying assumption here is that Bu$h and the co-president have us mired in Iraq because they really are looking for the baddies who did 9/11. This is a false starting point.

Let's state a few things to get started:

The co-president and his cronies (because Bu$h really has no interest in Iraq, foreign affairs, the coming oil crisis, or anything he can't drink or snort) does not give one Texas turd about who did 9/11. He may make speeches about it and proclaim with resounding fierceness that we've got to get the baddies who were responsible for 9/11t, but the very reason he pushes the 9/11-AQ connection is to get us into Iraq where the oil is.

Let's be clear: 3000 lives to the co-president, be they American or otherwise, is a drop in the bucket. For him and his buddies to get their hands on the worlds remaining oil reserves he'll gladly sacrifice a lot more. And he is!

Now to AQ. It is not in the best interest of the co-president to take out AQ. Sure it is in the interest of us (you and me and our families, for our safety) but those currently in power wouldn't dare take out the heads of AQ as they provide them with a constant and continual menace in the form of Public Enemy #1.

So long as the co-president has AQ to throw in the face of average 'muricans every time they want to know why their phones are tapped or why they have to pay $7 a gallon for gas or if they want to see some energy documents, he will have no part in it's destruction.

$0.02

par for unthinking course.

I went to bed last night praying to God that I would awake with your incredible wisdon and brilliance to all things Social, Economical, Political and even maybe how to have great sex.

Well God answered me this morning and I feel like you do...SUPERIOR!

So I can't wait to start posting on DU and telling everyone just how fucking brilliant and wonderful I've become!

BTW: I've been trying to find the book you suggested: "How to be Superior" but can't seem to find it? Please tell me where to find it and also the page number for your "par for unthinking course" quote. That's a good one.

They make it so easy.

And Bu$h doesn't want to. If there was no al Qaeda, where would the next round of public fear and war profits come from?

The administration wouldn't LIE, no would they?

have been special forces troops going and taking care of it and in rare occasions using air power.

However, Bush relied on competing warlords and the Pakistanis (the creators of the Taliban) to take care of much of the work. Not to mention the fact that he then diverted all resources from the country for his war in Iraq.

no peace. know justice, know peace. eom

a country with no al Qaeda connections.

... but the problem is finding them...

Heyo

and has it done any good?

... you have the best chance to catch them by COOPERATING between those jurisdictions.

Sorta like how the best way to catch these guys has always been international cooperation in both law enforcement and intelligence gathering/sharing.

and that is why osama is pissed. osama used to be a sort of ally of the US when he was fighting the russians in afghanistan. what happened is the US went "over there" to the saudi kingdom, osama and millions of other muslims became pissed. i think that bush , in his fuzzy logic , believes that removing the threat of saddam will stabilize the area so peace can be possible. but bush did not calculate how indignant some muslims would be that thousands of infidel troops not only are in saudi arabia but also afghanistan,iraq, and who knows were else in the muslim world.