Touching

http://64.177.83.63/liberty/email.htm

Check out this site

"nuff said.

ask them if we forgot. Bush dropped the ball. HE is the one who forgot.

ever forget or forgive

but never forget.
God heals all.

Just another dumb fuck who thinks Saddam had something to do with 9/11...

I agree. That link has made me so angry that I've finally posted a reply after months of "lurking" (I call it "gathering info", though).

Have I forgotten? Who could?

Have you forgotten that the folks behind that carnage still have not been brought to justice? Have you forgotten that we've killed 3X more innocents than that in the last 3 months? Innocents. Even the soldiers shooting back at us (defending themselves) were not involved in that tragedy.

My blood boils that our country is using that tragedy as an excuse to kill. And I'm being called a traitor because I believe that is wrong.

Peace.

I'm glad you cut through it. Welcome to DU, jedicord :hi:

For a minute I thought we'd be reminded not to forget the fire at the Reichstag!

...is something that points the call for action in the right direction. Those opposed to the attack on Iraq hadn't "forgotten", weren't sacrificing their liberty for "comfort", they were people who knew Bushco's tying of Saddam to 9/11 was phoney and his entire agenda had nothing to do with protecting us from further attacks.

Why would you refer us to a site that attampts to take control of our camera and microphone?

Right click on the flash applet, and select settings and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I didn't look for a hidden agenda, I looked at the video, it was touching as my post explained.
Didn't you feel anything when you saw it?
Didn't you feel anything for the hurt and the helplessness of these people?
We are people first, underneath or political labels and our own agendas we all suffered on 9/11. I think this video brought that home.
I cried when I watched and no, I didn't click on any link to see who produced it. It didn't matter. It wouldn't take away my tears, it wouldn't lessen my pain.
The whole point is that it happened. It happened because of people who hate. They hate our system, our freedom and apparently the blessings we have that they don't have. They wanted to hurt us, they wanted to kill us. Not our leaders, they wanted to kill US and they did... and then they celebrated.
I blame Bush for it too. I think our government ignored many indicators that could have stopped it but they didn't believe our own information. They didn't do anything.
Later, when they received information that we were in danger again they listened to the information, they acted on it again.
This time I believe we acted too quickly.
People tell me I'm wrong, that it's a "damned if we do and damned if we don't situation."I don't agree, that's why i'm here.

and rightfully so, especially in light of Sept. 11th. Whether I felt anything is not the issue. THere are emails with viruses and worms and Trojans running around, all referencing Sept. 11th. It has become quite popular actually. So you can ask yourself whether you felt anything when you have to reformat your hard drive or reinstall your OS. Let alone the privacy violation implications.

As for the content of the video, yes I felt something. I felt an intense burning anger that the Bush Administration continues to use such a tragedy to manipulate and intimidate the American people for their own political and profit-seeking agenda. I felt an intense burning anger that, whether through sheer incompetence and negligence or purposeful intent, they allowed such a travesty to occur.

Ask yourself whether when looking at those pictures, you could also see innocent Iraqi civillians facing the same dangers and terrors when we unjustifiably invaded and bombed their nation?

Any other questions?

Bush was asleep.

HE knew the intelligence too! He sat on the friggin' committee whose recommendations, if followed, would have PREVENTED 9/11.

Bush knew the intelligence too. 9/11 waqs his "trifecta" to get his poll numbers up.

I update my virus protection regularily. No, I am not worried about trojans... (That type anyway)
These are the same people who tried to take down the world trade center when we had a REAL president.
I fear your anger is misplaced. You are angry at our leadership. It isn't our leadership they hate, it is our way of life, our freedoms our religion...
They care little for who our leadership is, they want us to suffer because they suffer. They suffered under their leadership as well.
How many of those innocent Iraqi civilians who suffered, did so before we came, and at the hands of their own brutal dictatorship? How many had lost family members at the hands of their own leaders?
I don't condone the war in Iraq. I don't support it. I do support America. Right or wrong I believe we are better than any other country.
I believe we must vote our conscience to get rid of the people who are ruining this country, but I also believe that we must not forgot, or ignore the fact that many people in other countries celebrated the deaths of our loved ones simply because they hate us, Democrat. Libertarian, Socialist or Repub, they hate us because we exist.

I work in the IT industry. Updating your anti-virus is great. New viruses and such are released on a daily basis. New security flaws are announced almost as frequently. So I do worry.

You seem to have bought into the whole "they hate us for our freedoms" B.S.
The propaganda has worked. They hate us because of our foreign policy, and incursion into their lands. They hate us for history and for a whole lot of other reasons. They do NOT hate us for our freedoms, nor our religion - for the most part.

Perhaps you should do a little more researching before you announce this stuff here. By coming here you are off to a good start. But you aren't telling us anything we haven't heard a million times already, and no offense, but in a much more eloquent and convincing fashion than your attempts here.

Some of us are capable of seeing through the propaganda. Stick around, and perhaps you will too.

for being arrogant, imperialistic, bastard bullies. A perfectly understandable attitude given our actions for decades. And 'our' means those instituted by our 'leaders.'

Focusing on Al Queada and Osama Bin Laden. Their hatred seems less about jealousy (I have never seen documentation of this - only the claims of the president and his adherents) and more about the percieved threat of westernization on their ferverant religious convictions. This is about striking at a perceived threat to their religious (extreme) way of life.

More significantly, if one really pays attention to the patterns of Osama Bin Laden, is his belief in his superiority, his invinicibility and his thirst for power. In this belief the major strike at the US seems to be part of his illconceived plan to push the US to retaliate and thereby unite the Muslim world in a conflict against the west - with HIM as the "Savior" (re: deserving of power). Step two, as he has advocated elsewhere, once the Muslim world was to be united against a common enemy (sadly, using US as the "enemy") to turn the fires on Muslim governments that do not conform to his wahabbist views and to eventually centralize power - under himself, of course, into a single and powerful entity/Islamic nation.

Yes, this seems to be delusional. Psychopaths are often dillusional.

The reason trying to understand the motivation behind the attack is important, is that then longer term policies will be better prepared to address potential reactions to our actions. This administration, using its simplistic analysis seemed to assume that once the Taliban was out of power the story was over. But guess what - the leadership of the Taliban and of Al Queada were never captured. Both groups have reemerged as a power in Afghanistan and in Pakistan, and our policies against Iraq have given a much more powerful recruitment tool for young zealots to be manipulated and used as potential human weapons against us.

Simplistic explanations for very complex situations - can be very dangerous.

....an overwhelming sadness for the INNOCENT AMERICANS; our brothers, sister, mothers, and fathers, who were lost that horrible day???

YES, I FEEL AN OVERWHELMING INTENSE LOATHING for Bush and neo cons too but FIRST AND FOREMOST I feel a sadness that defies description.

I felt it two years ago when it happened. I felt it during the ensuing weeks when such pictures and videos were replayed ad infinitum.
I felt it again on the one year anniversary.

Excuse me for being a little desenstized by a media that shamelessly replays the images over and over and over again.

And excuse me for being a little cynical from an Administration that shamelessly exploits the event for its own agenda, over and over and over and over and over and over again.

I WAS sad. Now, I'm just pissed. Unless a real human being who felt the effects, someone like Jedicord here wished to express their pain. Then I completely sympathize, not for this bloodthirsty Administration or media, but for the REAL victims. Many of whom are still seeking justice.

....are saying now - and the way you put it this time I AGREE COMPLETELY!!!!

I hate that f...... SOB and his ilk more than words can ever tell.

I got the crying over it out of my system in September of 2001.

It did raise a righteous anger over the man who, in speaking about 9/11, stated "I hit the trifecta!"

That rat bastard illegally occupying the White House is the person responsible for 9/11, NOBODY ELSE!

And that rat bastard has the gall to send our brave servicemen into harms way so he can hit some more "trifectas".

Nope, I didn't cry and I wasn't touched. IT just pissed me off at the single man most responsible for the event than I was before.

The man responsible for 9/11 is George W. Bush, unelected pResident.

Yes, I remember 9/11. I remember being at work and wanting to be with my family at home watching cartoons (goofy, but true). Then I found out my son's school was under lockdown and I couldn't get him. My husband was on the other side of town. My boss wouldn't let me go home. I remember coming home and seeing my animals and thinking how wonderful it was that they had no idea what was going on. I remember turning off the TV so my son wouldn't have to keeping seeing the tragedy.

I remember going to the store and buying a flag sticker reading "God Bless America" for my car the very next day (ironically the receipt read $9.11). I remember thinking my country would never let this happen again. We're strong! We're safe!

What do I know now? I feel that flag sticker conveys the wrong message now, but I still can't bring myself to tear it off. I don't feel safe, because my country's doing nothing to protect us here at home. I still turn off the TV because the war talk scares my son and he's still young. I'm worried, though, that this "war on terror" in Iraq will last as long as Vietnam and my son will, years from now, be drafted into this mess.

I feel my America of 2 years ago is gone forever. What our people stood for and believed. Everyone here it seems (Texas) are like Stepford Wives for the regime. To quote David Bowie: "I'm Afraid of Americans".

And ain't that a tragedy in itself?

Your reply here was truly "touching". Not some contrived B.S. Flash propaganda by some jerkoff wingnut to elicit crocodile trifecta tears to funnel more money to the RNC.

I empathize with you competely, am sorry for you and your families pain, and wish you well.

n/t

not from Iraq! It was total bull. We are no safter at home, we are less safe over seas. The reason 9-11 happened is because bush decided not to stop it.

"It happened because of people who hate. They hate our system, our freedom and apparently the blessings we have that they don't have"

Whoever says that "they hate our freedom" and that's the reason they attacked us is, in my opinion, taking what * says at face value.
"They" meaning Al-Qaeda do not hate us for "our freedom", do you know why they were formed? Because we attacked an Arab nation (Iraq) for one purpose only (not to free Kuwait, to free their oil), and then we maintained a base in the very home of Islam where Mecca and Medina are located. Bin Laden founded Al-Qaeda to rid Saudi Arabia of US bases, not because "he hated our freedom". Sorry, that phrase infuriates me, and whenever anyone attempts to argue it, they are labeled as part of the "Blame America first crowd", another phrase I abhor. And as far as hating our system, yes, they hate a system that leads us to attack an Arab nation, kill thousands upon thousands of THEIR civilians (and not their leader, we didn't even kill their leader), impose sanctions that kill hundreds of thousands more of their civilians (mostly children), and then attack the same country again when it doesn't even have a military to defend its citizenry so we are free to "Shock and Awe" them all the way to the "Great Liberating Ground in the Sky". Sorry for the rant, but I think that one of our main problems here in America is that we do not see that we (America, specifically, Poppy Bush) lit the brushfire (kept troops in Saudi Arabia after we had decimated Iraq's military) in our backyard (the world) that has come back to engulf our house (the attacks on our homeland). To address terrorism, we must address some of the policies that our govt. has implemented that alienate a large portion of the world IMHO. Not saying we change what our country is about, moreso, that we ADHERE TO THE PRINCIPLES THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON, and not foolishly treat the world as our oyster to grab for the taking.

When? This has been disproven time and time again - while this govenment continues to ignore REAL threats - specifically North Korea that DOES possess nuclear arms that can reach the US - and al queada that has regrouped in Afghanistan while we pulled troops from there, reneged on our promises of rebuilding (which would have provided jobs and economic reasons for citizen participation/alliances to support a budding democracy instead of regressing back to a warlords system) because this administration determined - in the face of NO evidence we now learn - to go after Iraq rather than fully address Afghanistan - within WEEKS after 911.

This flash is so deceptive and so ignorant it is insulting to those who were lost in the tragedy of 911 - because it aims to create loyalty and nonquestioning towards actions and policies taken in the aftermath that put at greater risk for a future attack. For shame on the producers for contributing to this.

by 9-11? After he finished running around the country like a scared rabbit and his pants had time to dry, he and his cabal set in motion and carried out plans to kill Afghanis and Iraqis in blood lust for oil and to line the pockets of his friends at Halliburton and Bechtel.

Bushco knew 9-11 was coming and LIHOP. The blood of those mothers, fathers, sons, and daughters will forever stain his monkey paws.

I just want to make sure people are cautious.

to ask your congress person why the Bush Admin is stonewalling the 9/11 committee.

Perhaps you can ask yourself why the investigation of a pregnant woman's death(as tragic as it is) in Northern Cali is receiving more attention than the investigation of the murder of 3,000 people?

There are many questions we can answer on alternate topics, we can attempt to change the subject and ignore the obvious. But the fact remains that 9/11 happened because of their hate for us.
All that shrub didn't do that could have stopped it doesn't change the fact that we have an enemy who wants us dead.
Now we know. 9/11 brought that horrible truth to our shore.
They warned us before. They caused damage to our interests overseas but on 9/11 they made it personal. They killed our parents, our children and our way of life.
Their actions is what is taking away our freedoms. Their behavior gave shrub and his ilk the opportunity to take away our freedoms and get into our lives.

1. Just because there are many questions, doesn't mean they should not be asked. Nor does it mean we are ignoring the obvious or changing the subject.

2. There are lots of enemies that "want us dead". Even some of the folks we call allies. Get used to it.

3. Their action is not taking away our freedoms. If our freedoms are taken away as a result of their actions, then they have won, AND all servicemen in previous wars died for NOTHING!

Think for yourself. It is not easy. But it sure is rewarding.

Help me here. What CAN we do to stop the hate these people have for Americans?
We have many enemy allies, how can we protect ourselves?
My freedoms are taken away when I am nearly strip searched before boarding a plane, not because I look like a terrorist but because (I believe) someone wants to "handle" me.
Our freedoms were taken away when people who hate us have written our government a blank check to find revenge against any country or dictator they believe is our enemy.
Our freedoms were taken away when people stopped traveling in great numbers after 9/11 and business began massive layoffs as a trickle down affect and there was nothing our unions could do to stop it.
Our freedoms vanished when we see our meager savings accounts dwindling as a result of the unemployment, much of which was caused by 9/11.
How many people are shying away from trips to Europe out of fear of reprisals against Americans?

What is the solution? We know who to blame, while thinking for ourselves, what can each of us do right now to correct the problem?

For starters we need to end our dependence on foreign oil. Or oil period. This obvioulsy won't happen over night, but gradually it will put an end to the geopolitical "game" of fossil fuel dominance that keeps us entangled in Middle East affairs.

Then we need to decide how we approach the Israeli/Palestinian situation. This is not an easy question, as many Americans, myself included, do not want to see Israel completely abandoned. But as with any relationship, we need to be able to accept the risks. Would we abandon our relationship with any other country based on the possibility of terrorism?

Finally, instead of War on Iraq, which fuels MORE hatred, and subsequently MORE terrorists, we should have spent the money on security HERE. We spent BILLIONS, achieved no better security here, and in fact lost credibility and ruined relationships with countries that WERE assisting us in the "war on terror". Did you know that France tipped us off to Moussaoui? Do you think they're going to be as likely to tip us off the next time around? Or how about any number of Islamic/African countries that perhaps were willing to share info before Iraq. Meanwhile we ignore countries that DO have legitimate ties to terrorism AND WMDs... Pakistan, North Korea, Saudi Arabia...

And now, the icing on the cake, even our own intelligence agencies' credibility is blown, because the Bush cabal chose to manipulate the intelligence. This has long term implications, my dear. Wait until a real threat is on the horizon, and the CIA tries to raise an orange alert.

So, feeling safer yet?

We have an abundance of oil in Alaska, we are told we can't get to it for reasons of ecology.
Yes, we could use a substitute for fossil fuels but right now we need to be free of foreign oil. If we can do that by producing our own, why do we resist that endeavour?

I believe we should also side with Israel and that their enemies are our enemies. Terrorism is the result of siding with Israel. The whole situation in Iraq has allot to do with Israel. How many other Arab leaders wanted Saddam out of power but refused because Israel was their common enemy?

You say that we've spent billions here and achieved nothing. We have not had a terrorist episode on our soil since 9/11 of that magnitude.
Why are we no safer?

I also believe that Pakistan, North Korea, and Saudi Arabia should be on our radar screen but we have entangled ourselves in Iraq instead.
What will the reaction of the American people be if we continue to combat every country that supports WMD? What about that of those countries? How long before we experience a real nuclear disaster?

Our intelligence was apparently feeding us information about our enemies for years, it has been up to our leaders to determine which had merit and which didn't. I wouldn't want to be responsible for making the determination of which intelligence was correct.

You answers provided interesting new questions. Here's another, do we ignore what happened on 9/11 and move on?

We have an abundance of oil in Alaska, we are told we can't get to it for reasons of ecology.

There are other fuel sources. Do I stop eating if I become allergic to chicken, or do I just stop eating chicken. As for right now, these fuel sources could be developed in a reasonably short time if given proper impetus. We went to the moon in 9 years, remember?

I believe we should also side with Israel and that their enemies are our enemies.

We also side with India. Is their enemy, Pakistan, our enemy?
How about Taiwan and China. Russia and Chechnya. Britian and Argentina. I could keep going. I am sure you get my point.

You say that we've spent billions here and achieved nothing. We have not had a terrorist episode on our soil since 9/11 of that magnitude.
Why are we no safer?

Wrong. I said we spent billions on Iraq, NOT here. That was my point. As for the reason we have not had a terrorist attack, I feel it would not be convenient for the Administration to ALLOW another attack to this point. They could have prevented 9/11. We all know it. You're just in denial. Or would you care to explain to me how one of the most secure locations in the world, the Pentagon, was hit over an hour after the two towers were hit, which indicated an attack was underway, when it is only minutes from an Air Force Base, and the NTSB was aware more than two planes had been hijacked? I have plenty of other questions for you, just ask.

do we ignore what happened on 9/11 and move on?

Absolutely, we move on. That does not mean ingnore it. It means move on. When the solutions to a problem create more problems than the original problem we intended to resolve; then they are no longer valid or logical solutions.

Here's a better way of putting it. You say you were touched by this video. How many more videos of events like 9/11 do you wanna see before you "get it"?

Maybe we should stop being friendly with them and their enemies won't take it out on us?

Let's not start this here...

Bethany did, though. Read the post numbers. You'll see I was responding directly to her post which stated as a solution to prop up Israel even more. I disagree with that vehemently as that has been a big part of the U.S.'s problem in the region.

is anymore a solution than turning our backs on any one else we have a relationship with.

How do you suppose we handle India and Pakistan?

Very similar situation, agree?

India and Pakistan is a very different situation from Israel and the rest of the ME.

India and Pakistan both have WMD. Only Israel is aloud to have WMD in the other conflict.

From where I sit, I can understand precisely why nations at odds with Israel WANT WMD and the missile systems to deliver them. That's the only way they can hope to achieve some modicum of detante!

Agree to disagree.

I do not want to feed this can o' worms.

I agree that we disagree, on this subject anyway.

Is he "they"... remember him, he blew up a couple hundred people in OK including a childrens daycare? He was the red headed, highly decorated veteran of the first gulf war. What did he hate us for, our "freedoms"?

Well, for starters, we can stop assuming that God only Blesses America...we can stop bombing other countries so that we can get our hands on their resources...we can stop assuming that we run the world by imperial fiat...we can start working with the international community instead of acting unilaterally...we can stop being spoiled children and boycotting nations whose populations and leadership don't blindly follow our lead. How's that for a start?

I find the attitude that "this country is better than all others" really frightening. That kind of nationalistic jingoism leads to totalitarianism. Liberty is what made this country great, and as our liberty is whittled away and replaced with an oligarchical dictatorship, our greatness wanes as well. I love this country. But it can become a hell, unless we stop it. Our greatest threats do not come from without, but from within.

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for temporary security deserve neither."

And if Bushco is given half a chance, they'll do it again!

And who are "they"?

Is Saddam really Osama and I missed something?

Or are "they" anyone with brown skin?

Are "they" my neighbor who hates my dog?

How 'bout the guy that flipped me the finger in traffic?

America's new mantra: Kill anyone who hates us!

Repeat after me: Saddam did not blow up the World Trade Towers, even though the guy who served you that Koolaid wants you to think so.

As I explained clearly, THEY are the people who hate us because of our religions, our freedoms, our democracy, our blessings and our continued successes.

Saddam is one of them, you KNOW he hated America as he hated his own people. How many thousands of them were butchered under his rule. I'm not saying that it was our responsibility to stop him, I'm saying he was one of our enemies.

Osama is another one of them. He and his followers rejoiced at the destruction of 9/11.

Your questions, about the man who hates your dog or the one who flips you off in traffic was made to make your point that we have many enemies. Many of them may wish us ill for the moment, that's human nature. Do we kill anyone who hates us? That's rhetorical I guess.
What DO we do with those who hate us AND wish to kill us?
What is our solution? Do we forgive them? Do we bribe them for their acceptance? Do we ignore them? Do we side with them against our country and admit that our leaders are scum?
How would we feel if they did somehow manage to kill someone in our leadership.

Think about the first emotion that came to your mind when you answered my last question and it will tell you how you feel about this country.

Two questions for you:

1. Do you believe Saddam had anything to do with 9/11?

2. Were you were aware that the "butchering of his own people" occurred with the compliance and assistance of Presidents Reagan and Bush 41? Links available on request. Does that bother you at all?



Does this bother you?

who SHOULD have had first hand knowledge of how "dangerous" Saddam continued to be, did business - by circumventing US law, by the way - with Iraq around 1998. Indeed Haliburton was, I believe, the largest trade partner with Iraq in that time frame. Worse yet what the business was - was rebuilding the oil infrastructure in the country - that is - rebuilding so that Iraq could produce more and sell more oil. Right, Cheney, prior to being Vice President but after he served as Sec of Defense that went to war with Iraq, later skirted US law to earn a whole lot of money for his company, in a way that could have a HUGE economic impact on Saddam and his government.

This one bothers me tremendously.

Almost as much as a Rumsfeld in 2000 serving on the Board of a company that did trade with North Korea - selling equiptment for nuclear energy to a government long known to be attempting to build the capability to produce nuclear arms.

These fellows sure seem to do business that puts American security at risk. Profits seems to trump security. That MO would seem to fit the hands off approach to Saudi Arabia which spawned OBL and is the home to 15 of the 19 hijackers who took aim at us. Guess the oil companies with interest in Saudi Arabia and their profits continue to trump US security.

I believe that there were many people oppressed under Saddam.
I believe that he rejoiced at our pain after 9/11, I believe that we are in a situation in which we have to protect the interests of the American people and we are sometimes forced to choose between the lesser of two evils in the interest of national security.

I also believe that we give aid to many of our enemies across the world in an effort to share the blessings that G_d has given us.
I believe it is in our best interest to maintain a friendship (ie: their dependancy) upon us in order to keep from becoming an enemy of the world.

I don't doubt that the butchering went on under Saddam while we "supported" his country when they fought against Iran.
I don't believe that we approved of it. we needed the assistance of his country against a common enemy. Our 1991 battle, when he attempted to take back Kuwait proved that we would only tolerate so much.
I am not happy that he ignored U.N. sanctions for 8 years, that we ignored it, that the U.N. didn't support us (I still root for our side) but I don't believe we should have gone in alone.

How do you feel about the U.N. not supporting their own sanctions and our non-involvement for so long? Do you believe that the U.N. caused the situation when the inspectors were thrown out in 1998?

I refuse to blame America for all that happened. I think it was the result of a series of bad choices along with electing a cowboy.
I also believe Gore might have easily defeated the shrub if Clinton had been stronger regarding Iraq and if Clinton had been more moral. (As a woman I detested his unfaithfullness followed by his lies)

We blame the Rebugs for our defeat, when the real fault must rest on Bill's behavior. I know everyone does it, but when he was caught and lied he cheapened the office and made us a laughingstock to other nations.
Thanks to him, Americans demanded a cowboy in greater numbers than they might have normally done. If not for Bill Clinton, we wouldn't be in the situation we are today.
Can I get a witness here?

I should have seen it coming.

We tried being nice and respectful, because we thought you were perhaps just naive and uninformed.

But with each post you display how predictable you are. Troll elsewhere. I am done with you.

US support for Saddam continued AFTER the war with Iran, up until the day of the invasion of Kuwait.

If the US was supporting him because of the war with Iran, why continue to support him after it was over?

Answer: because they just supported Saddam, period.

Gore did win...bush sued florida to stop their legal election process of counting the votes.

Don't bother blaming Clinton. BTW, as a woman I thought Clintons personal life was none of my business and I am glad he finesed the situation and stuck it to the moralizing whores and pimps who called themselves house managers.

You're really being naive.

We even set Saddam up. Bush the elder, patron of the Bush Crime Family, told him to go ahead and attack Kuwait, we wouldn't stop him.

And finally, your attack on Clinton reveals your leanings to everybody on this board.

Thanks for playing. Nice try but it didn't fly.

I just replied with a huge post, do you really believe that they hate us "because of our freedoms"? And if so, please elucidate. Are you sure it's not because we killed many civilians with smart and dumb bombs in the persian gulf war, then killed hundreds of thousands with sanctions? But hey, when they attack our civilians and don't kill our leaders, its different. And are you sure "they" dont hate us b/c we kept a military base in their holy land (i.e. Saudi Arabia where Mecca and Medina are located)? Not to be insensitive, but this is a blatant ploy to use 9-11 to incite people to use emotion rather than to actually discuss why it happened. And on that issue, where is the 9-11 investigation we were promised? Why won't Shrub's pansyass release the report? They hate us because of our freedoms? What freedoms we ever did have are being taken away by Asscrotch as we speak, and things like this only attempt to take us further towards our demise. I saw this quote during the war with Iraq, and I think it's telling: "We are only one terrorist attack away from becoming the kind of society our fathers and grandfathers fought against".

With the guy who hates my dog? Avoid him when I'm walking my dog.

The guy who flipped me off? Say to myself "God saw that" ('cause normally they have those little fish things on their bumpers). And avoid him (concealed gun laws and all that!).

With the one responsible for 9/11? Get 'em! Which begs the question -- WHY HAVEN'T WE?

With someone who hates me but does no physical harm? Keep a close eye out in case of a threat, otherwise, treat him like the guy who hates my dog. Despise him, disagree with him, but leave him alone.

That's how I feel about my country. Protect and defend.

Don't beat up the little guy 'cause the big bully punched me in the nose.

you're full of shit.

you have a lot to lean and this is the place to learn it. They don't hate us for out way of life....keep spouting the repug talking points and someone will think you are one.

When I clicked and was subjected to the disgusting diatribe the creator spewed about me being a 'coward'.

FUCK HIM. He has sullied the name of TRUE heroes with his pro-war vomit.

fackin hell!

Opps did I not get touched enough by this propaganda piece?

Anyway DS1, i laughed, I cried, I want your sig! :P

TWL

With quotes to promote revenge, retaliation. Remember the Maine, Pearl Harbor, the Holocaust and all the misery in the name of revenge, greed, power hunger, the afflictions and deaths created by the Bush Wars.

because it is a very didactic patronizing site which attempts to build up our natural emotions for those people who died in a mass murder and rechannel that emotion into unquestioning support for death and destruction in our day.

We also have the very clear irony that this guy on the site (or woman) is quoting from the 18th century colonial leaders who today we look back on as patriots but who back then were known in Britain as criminals...perhaps even terrorists. They really WERE fighting for something important. Fighting off the yoke of oppression.

What do you think the people in the middle east are trying to fight off? There are a lot of smart, privilegd sons over there who see how their area has been suppressed by western power, and they are rebelling.

I guess my point is not that I laud the terrorists, but this person who put together the site is missing some huge points in their reasoning and dealing with their initial grief.

I was offended by the very graphic picture of a person in "Mid dive" off of one of the WTC buildings and the pictures showing the people escaping the smoke....sure to die....with the caption "this is your family". It is cheap manipulation, and the Amerian people are tired of being manipulated.

I wonder how many people joined up and are now fighting an illegal war in IRaq because of this tragedy. I wonder how many people who worked for Worldcom, Enron, Global Crossing, etc. gave much in money and time and effort to Red Cross and other agencies after 9-11 and were thanked by being fleeced by the robber barons and this president.

It makes me sick.

You said:
"There are a lot of smart, privileged sons over there who see how their area has been suppressed by western power, and they are rebelling."

These people who are suppressed by western power need to come here for their education in order to fight off the yoke of oppression in their country. Those who do want to stay.
We offer freedom... of religion, financial opportunities, and other freedoms (Weren't the 9/11 terrorists at a strip club here in Flroida too?)
Those that are rebelling have not tasted freedom. They are rebelling against our freedom, against our way of life and because they have been brought up to believe that we (like Israel) are their enemies.
They are not supppressed by western power but by their own religion and religious leaders. They are taught from birth to hate us for what we represent. We have enemies who don't care what we stand for, who don't understand us and, while accepting our financial aid, continue to hate us. '
How do we battle this oppression?

Please stop this nonsense.

We know all the talking points. You cannot state them with nearly as much conviction or as articulately as the Republicans, the Administration or the media.

If you came here to learn, we can help you.
If you came here to spout the same tired FACTLESS B.S. that everyone else in the world is selling, then enough.

Go to Freerepublic and preach to the choir. Or stay, show us an open mind, and we will respectfully point you towards information that is based on fact, and which you can use to make an informed decision, for yourself and by yourself.

Either way, stop spewing the nonsense here.

What do you mean I have "talking points"?
Of course I have talking points, I answered your points with mine, what am I missing?

If I keep an open mind I have to look at all the facts, you're telling me that in order to keep an open mind I have to discount some of what I believe and that my beliefs are talking points.

You've said my beliefs are factless BS. Okay, why do we have so much immigration from Arab countries? Why do they come here to study? Why do they come here to live? Why are their numbers growing here in such staggering rates if we are oppressing them?
What do we offer that can't get at home?

Answer sme of my talking points instead of dismissing them. That's how a discussion operates.
If I'm going to have my beliefs disproven you're going to have to find another way to do it then to discount all of it as factless BS.

Get me some facts disproving my talking points.
The Free Republic comment was below the belt. Play fair!

the lines that are handed out to party members to tow the line. You may not be aware that you are parroting them, but we, who keep a watchful eye on the media, and on various Republican memos and e-mails, are very aware of them and can spot them quite easily.

In short, you have been suckered by propaganda and are spewing it here, whether intentional or not.

I'm sorry to tell you dear, we are smarter than that. We can smell them a mile away.

As for what you believe fine. We have provided you with enough information that your beliefs should be turned on their head by now.

The following quote sums it up quite nicely -
"He that will not reason is a bigot, he that cannot reason is a fool, he that dares not reason is a slave." - William Drummond

Since you've failed to address any of my statements and referred to them as talking points, and, since you've been here for a long time judging from the number of posts you've made here, this is your opportunity to educate me. Since I need an open mind kindly tell me with your new facts, why my facts are factless BS. Please take down each point I made since they were obviously all without fact.
Ready? and BEGIN!


I said:

These people who are suppressed by western power need to come here for their education in order to fight off the yoke of oppression in their country.
We offer freedom... of religion, financial opportunities, and other freedoms (Weren't the 9/11 terrorists at a strip club here in Flroida too?)




Those that are rebelling have not tasted freedom. They are rebelling against our freedom, against our way of life and because they have been brought up to believe that we (like Israel) are their enemies.
They are not supppressed by western power but by their own religion and religious leaders. They are taught from birth to hate us for what we represent. We have enemies who don't care what we stand for, who don't understand us and, while accepting our financial aid, continue to hate us. '
How do we battle this oppression?

I just replied to 2 of your posts with this answer, and you just ignored me (probably not deliberate, but here goes again). WE STOP THIS HATE BY:

NOT BOMBING COUNTRIES AND KILLING THEIR CIVILIANS WITHOUT KILLING THEIR LEADERS (you state that they did this to us and it is somehow different)

-NOT ATTACKING MUSLIM COUNTRIES ON FALSE PRETENSES (Bethtany, where are the WMDs? And Bush knew the Niger document was forged, why did we kill thousands of civilians <just like whoever you said "they" were did on 9-11> for no good reason? Were we liberating them?

-Not pursuing policies that put the selfishness of the US ahead of a better world (i.e. ignoring Kyoto, Shrub ignoring global warming, *'s refusal to make SUV's accountable to reasonable mileage standards while we eat huge amounts of the worlds oil)

-Making it appear that we at least give a shit about the Palestinians plight and not just look like we are giving the Israelis weapons to bomb them into oblivion

these are just for starters. read my above post (#31) if you are thinking about calling me a part of the "blame america first" crowd. If you cant see that we had a part in this, then tune in to Rush, and he could continue to reassure you.

and the colonialization of those areas and later exploitation of countries by U.S. Britain, etc.

They ARE being oppressed by the long arm of USA and you just don't want to see it.

That YOU are just as brainwashed, to believe they "hate us" so?

After all this wasted space on this thread, all I can say is:

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

They could come up with some searing images of the sanctions on Iraq, which were the equivalent of A HUNDRED AND THIRTY SIX 9/11's.

Just a thought.

.

It was sent to me by my dad via a friend of his in Chicago.
Dad always forwards warm and fuzzy stuff like Chicken Soup for the Soul etc. We share the same overall beliefs, and yes, he is a Democrat! (From Chicago? What else would he be?!)

Ok, here's a novel way to explore whether or not "they" hate us because of our freedom.

1. First ask yourself if we are more or less free than we were prior to the sept 11 attack. I think most rational observers would have to say "less" since now governement agenencies can read our emails, tap our phones, confiscate our library records with substantially less restriction than before. Add to that that Bush now claims the right to declare any of us an "enemy combatant" and strip us of our citizenship (and presumably our rights as well)... do I really need to make this case?

2. Ok, if you'll agree for a moment that we are less free than we were two years ago, ask yourself this one final question: do you think "they" hate us less now than two years ago*

Few people would disagree that we are more hated now than ever before... IMHO this is not supportive of the argument that our "freedom" is why we are hated.

Just a thought.

Snowgoose - excellent argument.

Nailed the dismount too!

Shameless use of imagery to evoke an emotional response. In this case ANGER at our current corrupt mis-leaders. There is more than enough circumstantial evidence floating around the internet to indict Bush et al for high crimes and treason. Start with the lie du jour -
Iraq seeks nukes from Nigeria. Then, I suggest you do a search for Operation Northwoods. If 'they' were capable of such a plan in the 60's my oh my how dangerous 'they' must be today.

I am sorry I wasted this much time and thought on this thread.

I might as well turn on Rush or Hannity.

Good day all.

it should encourage you to more actively take on the dunderheads who seem to be so empowered these days.

all it takes is a careful, persistent application of logic. As our good friend Bethtany just proved, it is much easier to appeal to emotion (the main and only workable tactic of the GOP and Shrub's admin. especially) than to actually try and see more than one side of an issue. And Bethtany, if you don't think the GOP is appealing to emotion as their main campaign point, why don't you consider where and when the RNC is being held next year. The end of this rotten little thing should say "RNC remembers 9-11-now their blood is buying our reelection". Shameless, disgusting propaganda, and nothing more.

It is my opinion that WE are the people who empowered them.
We were the people who listened to Bill Clinton lie to us, we were the ones who supported him during his impeachment trial.
We were the ones who chose to look away.
If we would have acted with outrage (as the Repubs did with Nixon) and demanded that he leave office, Al Gore would have been president during the 2000 elections and the Repubs wouldn't have had the opportunity to steal the election.

The sooner we begin to look at BC as the man who refused to step down, who refused, after being caught, to turn the party over to Al Gore, the sooner we can understand that we assisted in the situation in which we are now wringing our hands.

I've lied about blowjobs before.

Any man who went through high school has lied about blowjobs (usually lying that they got one when they didn't).

It's not like he stood up before Congress and the American people and swore up and down that Iraq was buying yellowcake from Niger then sent thousands of American soldiers into a quagmire to die or anything.

Let's put this into perspective.
Say your wife lied about giving a blowjob to her mechanic, then say she called a meeting of the entire family and told them she didn't do it and started questioning the mechanic's sanity.
Let's say she had given many blowjobs in the past, to her hairdresser, a few cab drivers, maybe a gas station attendant or two but you chose to believe her this time becuase she insisted that this time she was innocent....
Then you learned she lied to you too.
Would you forgive her? Would you give her a second chance?
Would you trust everything else she tells you?

I'm a woman and I'm married. I don't have to lie about having sex with another man, I simply don't do it, because I love my husband, because I wouldn't devalue our marriage and because I promised myself to him only.

Comparing your behavior in high school to that of a married full grown adult is apples and oranges.

You are comparing shrub's actions to Bill's.

My point was that Clinton's actions LED to shrub being in office (according to the votes of a huge section of Democratic block voters who voted against our party.)
Discounting his behavior as normal makes the point that WE are responsible for shrub.
Our views are not the same as those of all Americans, expecially the elderly, who always vote and were aghast at his behavior.
If I'm wrong, explain why Gore didn't GLIDE into the presidency with a great economy and 8 years of prosperity?

My point was that Clinton's actions LED to shrub being in office (according to the votes of a huge section of Democratic block voters who voted against our party.)

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!

Clinton's actions had nothing to do with Dumbass stealing the election and you know it!

Clinton lied about a blowjob AND IT WAS NONE OF OUR DAMN BUSINESS TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

He was put into a situation where he was forced to lie about a blowjob AND HE SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN PUT INTO THAT SITUATION!!!!

Apples and oranges??????

Pot, meet kettle!

The old "Clinton's prick" argument!

Heyzeus Marimba, can you believe they STILL go on about it????

JEEPERS!!!!

if you won't admit the USA's foreign policy as complicit in what led to an ongoing war against the US by terrorists, then it would be unthinkable for you to admit that these brainless people have power because of what WE Democrats did or did not support.

I think I should stick with your logic from previous topic: 9-11 and say Clinton was constantly under GOP attack because they hated Democrat's freedom. They are a repressed group. Repressed and oppressed by their religious leaders in the Christian right. They are trying to attack the liberty afforded us by Democrats and will do whatever to take it down. How can we stop their oppression? How about mercy killing?

seriously, are members of the GOP so HORRIDLY SEXUALLY REPRESSED that they actually think that lying about a blowjob warrants impeachment? BUSH LIED AND KILLED 260 SOLDIERS SO FAR!!! WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? WHY SHOULD A MAN BE IMPEACHED FOR LYING ABOUT A SEX ACT THAT ONLY AFFECTED A FEW PEOPLE WHEN SHRUB LIED US INTO A WAR THAT HAS KILLED THOUSANDS? WHERE IS YOUR REASON? That is simple partisan politics at it's worst, how can you even rationalize that? 70 million was spent trying to catch clinton in a perjury trap, and Shrub won't even fund the investigation into "our generations pearl harbor", yet you think this is fine. that makes me sick...

What I said was that BC CAUSED the election disaster of 2000.
Despite what some looked upon as acceptable behavior, we refused to see the big picture.
Many in America view marital loyalty as a test of someone's character over and above what they say.
Shrub can easily say that he was given bad information, he can blame the intelligence community, he can point to things WE SAID about Saddam in the past five years. His ass is covered. We can't, with a straight face, accuse him of lying the way BC did.

Clinton didn't cover his ass. He lied about something that people find sacred. He messed with his marriage then he lied to us about it, even pointed his finger and wouldn't say her name, then Hillary blamed people for making it all up.
When the truth came out people stopped trusting our party because we ignored it.
Remember that Clinton was poison to Gore. He didn't want his help in the election.

People were so upset with BC that they voted against the party.

Once again THAT'S how shrub got elected. That's why we are where we are today, if we refuse to admit it, we will be forced to repeat it.

Look, face the reality of the situation here.

Al Gore won the election in 2000.

George Bush stole the election in 2000 with complicit help from crooked Supreme Court justices who had no jurisdiction in the case.

ERGO, BILL CLINTON COULD NOT HAVE COST GORE AN ELECTION HE WON!!!!


SHEESH, I am so friggin' tired of lameass Clinton's Cock fascinations!

and the senseless continuous attacks on Clinton. That was clear in 98 midterm elections. Remember Newt left his job right after that?

Don't try to turn it around. I actually believe Bush has had sex outside of his marriage to Laura. I have absolutely no proof of that, but if I had tons of blood $$$ I could pay all kinds of private investigators to travel around Texas and elsewhere to dig into all of that.

Clinton didn't get run through the wringer because of sex. He was pilloried because he lied about it after being caught.

GOre lost the election on his own. Part of his strategic error was in acting like he didn't forgive Clinton and keeping Clinton as far away from him as possible.

The GOP got a BUNCH of single issue voters motivated, and the ultra left wing was either too upset to vote for Gore or voted for Nader. It is pathetic to say Clinton lost the election for Gore.

the reason shrub was Selected was b/c his daddy packed the courts with right-wing extremists who went beyond their constitutional mandate to select a president (look at the votes and even the decision they wrote, in which they said the decision probably couldn't be cited/used again in the future). Not to mention that the GOP SHAMELESSLY tarred Gore as a liar, and everyone believed that "I invented the internet" BULLSHIT when Gore never said that (he said he supported the funding that helped start the internet). Not to mention that with your "many people hold sacred" bullshit argument MANY PEOPLE HOLD SACRED THE FACT THAT PUBLIC SERVANTS SHOULD NOT GET 2 DWI'S AND THEN HAVE THEIR FATHERS COVER IT UP FOR THEM! IN 2 DIFFERENT STATES NONETHELESS? AND "I DIDN"T INHALE"??? SO WHAT?!?!?!?!

AT LEAST HE WASN"T BLOWING LINES LIKE SHRUB!!!!!!!!!! Please, these points are so ridiculous that I don't even know where to began. The media unfairly slammed Gore while ignoring Shrub, and then his daddy's boys on the court illegally selected him even after the GOP had already illegally disenfranchised 87,000 voters in FLA. So where's your argument again? Why don't you stick with what the GOP is good at, namely, hating people who aren't like you?

You are very clever. You come in here feigning to be a Democrat, perhaps you are, although you do such a wonderful job parroting Republican talking points none of us find you very credible.

Some interesting things to consider.

1. You say that BC was the cause of Bush's ascension. Gore won the popular vote, and even today, a Bush-Clinton matchup is a statistical dead heat. Clinton's approval ratings DURING impeachment were higher than Bush's ratings RIGHT NOW. Oh yeah, and did you know that Henry Hyde, you know the House Impeachment leader, was himself guilty of an affair in the 60's. Not just with a single intern, but with a married woman, who had children. It was a five-year affair that resulted in the breakup of that person's family. Then there's always the "touching" story of Newt Gingrich, calling for Bill CLinton's head, and shortly thereafter divorcing his TERMINALLY ILL WIFE for a pretty, young assistant.

2. Clinton's infidelity is a non-starter. It was a private affair, between him and his family. He should never have been asked about it. End of story. The only reason he WAS asked was because of partisan politics, and because a Republican operative, illegally taped a private conversation, and then used it to advance her own career. You say that as a woman, this disturbs. What an insincere argument. As if men are never the victims of infidelity? You may have heard that the divorce rate is in the neighborhood of 50% in this country. A high percentage of this is due to infidelity, and this is not taking into account marriages that stay together in spite of infidelity. You neglect that many other Presidents were also unfaithful: here's a short list - Jefferson, FDR, Kennedy, and Reagan. Even Bush 41 is alleged to have been unfaithful, too bad no Democratic operatives stooped so low as to tape conversations. For that matter, how do we know even Dubya has always been faithful?

3. You go on and on aout Clinton's lie. NO ONE DIED! Please explain to me why Bush's lies, in which people DID die, is any better?

4. As for Iraqis getting butchered by Saddam with U.S. approval - I was not even referring to the Iran-Iraq war - although that is certainly a highlight in U.S. hypocrisy. I was actually referring to the situation in which the Kurds and Shiites were slaughtered AFTER the Persian Gulf War, you know, when Bush 41 turned his backs on them, and allowed them to be slaughtered... you know those mass graves we keep hearing about. Saddam USED HELICOPTERS even though we were ENFORCING A NO-FLY ZONE.

5. Clinton was investigated for ALL OF HIS SUPPOSED wrongdoings, even the ones that turned out to be FALSE - WHITEWATER. Bush/Cheney et al. have stonewalled every investigation their corrupt, incompetent, deceitful, murderous, power-mongering asses have been worthy of being investigated for. Here's the short list: 9/11, Enron, Halliburton, Cheney task force, turning a blind eye to the gouging of California energy, Afghanistan gas pipeline, lying about Iraq case for war, lying about Iraq link to 9/11. People died. People lost pensions. People lost jobs. No investigation, no cooperation.

And you dare to bring up apples and oranges?

Go do your homework. Your attempts at logic are laughable and are further betrayed by your inability to provide any valid, sourced facts to back them up. Come back with facts and sources... or don't come back.

the implication from ANYONE that I could EVER, EVER FORGET THAT HORRIFIC DAY.

We can't get rid of the disease if we don't perform an autopsy. Yes, they hate us. We carved up their land for our oil companies. We supported whoever was in power for our own greed, including Sadaam Hussein. We supplied Hussein with money and weapons. Then, during the Gulf War we bombed unmercifully. The carnage was in the thousands. The bombs we left leaked uranium, causing babies to be born with terrifying birth defects and for increasingly high incidences of cancers. We decamped and left Hussein to slaughter his enemies. Just saying "they hate our freedom" makes no sense. Actions of terrorists are murder. The hate that breeds terrorists must be dealt with; ignoring the breeding ground doesn't work. We're not condoning murder. We're asking that America stand for fairness and compassion. Not just greed and military power.

We're all "whining" about the Niger uranium. We've obviously forgotten what's really important, hating terrorists and keeping Bush's approval rating in the nineties.

don't think of anything else in your nonproductive life. just obsess about that wound.

The people are really smart enough to say we need to be vigilant against real threats and are demanding accountability from our intelligence agencies, border patrol, etc.

But we're also demanding accountability from our foreign policy and defense teams who are shitting all over the world and then asking why it stinks so much when the wind blows back our way.

It sucks to be a Bush android right now. cognitive dissonance will create some kind of short circuit in their brains or CPU's or whatever they have.

big surprise! ;-)

as this person is no longer able to reply to posts :)

thx
heddi
du mod