I'm convinced now - Bush is toast. My staunch Reagan Republican...

stockbroker-with-a-Big-Firm Connecticut-residing Jaguar-driving brother-in-law who has been a Rush Limbaugh quoting PIA for many many years just told me tonight that he's going to vote for Nader in the next election because he has given up on Bush. He can't bring himself to vote for Kerry but Bush has lost his vote. If Bush lost this guy, he's losing his core base.

I wonder if that will be a more common phenomenon than we may have anticipated.

.

last year he said he was voting for bush*

last weekend while at a family get-together - he informed us that he can't support bush* - he's voting for nader...

question: will nader be the "spoiler" for bush* this time around?

:)

P.S. Sorry to answer a question with a question. :P

who could vote for nader instead of *. It just doesn't compute for me. To go from * to nader.

could possibly win so much as a vote against Bush without actually crossing over and voting FOR Kerry. He is proud that he votes in every election - this is his protest vote against Bush.

Now I understand! I hope he eventually sees that Kerry will do a much better job and limbaugh is a Lyin' Big Fat Idiot.

even though several on this thread have said it's a protest vote. To go from one extreme to the opposite is not a protest vote, IMO. Why Nader? Why not a Libertarian or Constitutional candidate? To me, that would be more of a protest vote.

But to go with Nader is only serving to hurt Kerry while not voting for Bush. That's not protest. That's calculated.

But it really makes no sense in that they are still effectively voting for Bush*, since that's what a Nader vote does.

that he is not going to get in 2004. I don't see how it equates as an effective vote for Bush.

is essentially lost. So nader will be getting protest votes from both sides but I think Kerry/Edwards is going to win so nader won't be cutting into them so much.

Voting for Nader for anything other than his platform (tongue in cheek) is just another round of republican pouty pants. It may be aimed at Bush or Kerry but the outcome is the same = not taking a stand. If adults in this country cannot grow up and take a stand, what hope do these kids in Iraq have?

Spoiled, spoiled, spoiled we Americans are!

koolaid, for so long, that they believe that democrats are demons.. The fact that they are deserting, might be the respite they need, to re-evaluate their thinking..

They don;t have to vote for Kerry...just DON'T vote for Bush.. That's enough for me..

If these people are so weak-willed that they must be given their "orders" over the airwaves, they will eventually see that "Uncle Rushbo" has been lying to them.. They are prime candidates for a mindset change..:)

I see--up close and personal--the mindset of Limbaugh listeners: my family. They will NEVER admit that they are wrong. Quite frankly, they are delusional. :(

I thought a vote for Nader was a vote for * only if you were liberal. If you would normally vote for * and you vote Nader, wouldn't that be a vote for Kerry?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<sarcasm off>

If a hard-core Republican votes for Nader to protest Bush, it is actually a vote for Kerry!

If a Democrat or Independent votes for Nader, then it is a vote for Bush.

The worm is turning...

vote for Nader than to have otherwise Good Guy supporters give up and vote for Nader. Let him be THEIR spoiler, NOT OURS!

Wouldn't that be funny if it was the wrong-wingers and other betrayed bush-lovers who went to Nader this time, and Nader screwed it for georgie instead of John? An enticing thought.

...would be comparable to the number of Texas death row inmates for Bush. :)

just sit this one out. Not even vote at all. I think a lot are not only disgusted with Bush* but the whole Party in general. I think they feel the Party has been hijacked by neocons and their representatives are just going along. This could end up being an upset of epic proportions. We could conceivably retake both houses of congress and the Whitehouse. Bush* has done more damage than they realize. Believe it or not there are some decent people out there that believe in Republican ideals of the past

that there's no way to vote for them, even if it means jumping over them to get to someplace even farther away on the ideological spectrum. They just won't pull that lever. That's how they've been conditioned.

last minute!

Drip, drip, drip!

:-)

Hates Bush, but he said he "can never vote for a Democrat."

He hates welfare with a passion and part of his family has been on welfare their entire lives. They are really pieces of shit, but I told him he can't blame that on welfare. He equates Democrats with things "he can't stand."

Other than welfare he is a rascist and hates gay people...

My point is he seems to be a "perfect" Republican what with all the anti-gay, anti-social welfare fervor going on. STILL, he can't stand Bush. Where did bush go wrong to lose a guy like this?

I honestly don't want this guy signing up for our team, but NOT voting for Bush is huge news. I believe the same thing is happening with the guy mentioned in this thread.

told my husband last week. She can't vote for a Democrat because she hates Welfare. I also think her views are at least partly a result of racism. She probably thinks of black people when she thinks of welfare. I don't understand it at all, since she was a single mother woh relied on the support of rich family members. She never would have been able to support herself, though she did work steadily.

I sent her an email today with an article someone on DU linked to earlier. It was about a man who killed his grandson and then himself after losing his job and not being able to support his family. The grandson was only 5, but was bipolar and the grandmother had not been able to find help for the family, so they were about to have to put the boy up for adoption. I would hope that a story like that would make her see how welfare programs benefit society, especially at a time when corporations are screwing their employees over.

After all, it takes a faaaaar bigger chunk of her taxes than poor-people-welfare.

because corporations give people jobs. I asked my husband if he brought up outsourcing, and she is agianst it but I guess she still buys into the idea that corporations care. I think she's been brainwashed by the old Reagan distortion of 'welfare queens'. I don't know why she thinks corporations are so great. She's nuts.

If you want a little evidence that the Republican party is facing serious problems, I have a good anecdote. She told my husband that she is mad at her sister because her sister doesn't think Bush is conservative enough.

>her sister doesn't think Bush is conservative enough.<

:wow:

Conservative in what way? He's about as fascist as you can get in America. Does she mean traditionally conservative?

One of the comments that sent me running to the Democratic Party was from an old guy who didn't think Bush was far enough to the right. I'm on disability and he told me it was a "pillow."

OK. A pillow. I get $790 a month. $450 goes to rent. After paying bills this month I have about, er, $20 left in the bank. My family helps me, but that's another problem since they are ultra-right wing. Some are fundamentalists. Last October my mother decided my disability was a form of demon possession. :eyes:

I won't bore you with more details, but this existence sometimes gets very hard.

Was she serious? You must have a very interesting family.

took it to mean he isn't Christian enough, but I think her sister meant he isn't fiscally conservative enough, as in big deficits and big spending. The sister is business-minded and married to a very wealthy businessman (she helped him start his successful company), which is why I'm assuming she would be more interested in economic conservatism. She's not a fundamentalist.

I realize there are places where the Senate races have some fascination for folks, but here in Illinois, our Senate race (Obama -v-Keyes) is NOT gonna inflame the standard GOP membership to vote. I have to wonder if maybe we ARE looking at a much better chance of taking back the house and Senate than we think.

I'm wondering if maybe the GOP rank and file is gonna stay home in disgust and the Dems may be motivated and turn out en masse...

Laura

Stay at home Repug voters could change both Houses.

http://www.fairvote.org/reports/monopoly/ticket.html

Look at these numbers:
76% of Repugs in 1996
72% in 1992.

Watch for candidates shying away from Bush.

Same illogic that the Bush worshippers use.

I'm not suprised repugs are switching to Nader, remember the freepers feel as hostile towards Kerry as we do towards Bush.(as crazy as that is)

This will be a landslide victor for John Kerry & John Edwards, no doubt about it.

is going to take more votes away from Bush that from Kerry.
As Martha would say "that's a good thing"

If Nader didn't run then republicans could still vote libertarian or Constitution party or not at all.

Why doesn't this guy vote for a right wing thrid party?

The Constitution Party for the social conservatives, and the Libertarian Party for the libertarian (duh) end of the right.

Harry Browne again?

n/t

the "conservative" agenda along with Bush, we might see some real change. The problem is, most of these types think they have thrived under repug administrations in the past. Like cicadas, they will go dormant until Jeb calls them up from the dirt someday. Many of them are simply embarrassed by their current association with the village idiot. They will vote for Nader or stay home.

...a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush.

who voted for Bush in 2000 votes for Nader - I don't see how that equates w/ a vote FOR Bush???

...canidate. They should just stay home and not vote at all.

:crazy:

Think it through.

You will see the falacy.

Kanary

I've never stated that. I don't even believe Nader will be a factor in this election....UNLESS...Republicans vote for him in large numbers. I think its ridiculous to get excited over Bush people changing their vote to Nader. What purpose does that serve except to prove once again that block of voters STILL doesn't understand the issues? It also shows there is more work to be done if Nader is seen as an alternative to Bush. Better those voters stay home.

just shows how little you understand the issue, and how much you are just repeating a "line".

There are other posts explaining this to you. I suggest you read and think it over.

Kanary

This is not a phenomenon to get excited over....and those who believe it is are 'grasping'.

Listen and learn.

You'll feel better.

Kanary

Of course she may have been just buttering up dear ol' Dad though. Dad is 80 and a WWII vet and HATES Bush! :)

it'd force them to really look at themselves in the mirror and eat barrels full of crow.

i want them at their complete ideological bottom, i want all their illusions crushed, i want them left with nothing but the nightmare they helped usher in. then, only then can healing begin.

you need contrition first before you seek penance and then move towards forgiveness. otherwise nothing is healed, the problem will rise again.

DEARLY loved, and have regretted that I did not make a note of who said it. It was a comment expressing how urgent and utterly essential it was not just for us to win this time, for for the Bad Guys to "get the snot beaten out of them" - because only in such an overwhelming, publicly humiliating repudiation might there be even a shred of a possibility that they can find redemption. Anything less than a "get the snot beaten out of them" will teach them nothing. They need to have a VERY public nationwide repudiation in order for the lesson to have any chance of sinking in. Otherwise, they'll figure out lots of excuses, and spin-spin-spin away, or if they're close enough, they'll probably try to steal it again.

To WHOEVER said that gorgeously wonderful phrase (that I have quoted here several times since reading it) THANK YOU! My only regret is that I wish I'd noted more carefully who'd posted it. I'd like to thank them by name. Because I WILL be quoting it again. With great delight. The very idea, and the mental picture it conjures up, just makes me SMILE!!!!

And that IS what they deserve - to "get the snot beaten out of them." All over the map. I want to see LANDSLIDE. I want to see BLOODBATH. I want to see the weeping and rending of garments and gnashing of teeth from them as they plunge down into the deepest darkest dankest depths.

Good post, Calimary.

I think you are giving them to much credit.... no matter how bad they are beat.... they will NEVER admit they did anything wrong.

They will NEVER vote Democratic. If it comes to a choice between Bush and Kerry with no other alternatives, they'll vote Bush. Or stay home. They see Kerry as the anti-christ, the 'most liberal senator' in the country. They're too far gone, steer them to the libertarians or the constitution parties, it might give one of the parties the inertia to finally cause a break up of the GOP.

Remember, eye on the goal, don't get fancy just make sure we get this one thing right. We can't afford to fail at this task. 1st things first.

That's ridiculous! Nader is an unabashed liberal, Kerry is much closer to Bush. Makes me ill to think that the hate machine has devalued Kerry so badly that they can't bring themselves to vote for him. He's not a freakin' child molestor... geez.

Going from voting for a true winger to a clear liberal rather than giving your vote to Kerry? Doesn't make sense to me. And I know one of these voters personally. He's a very bright, funny, well-informed guy who's married to one of my cousins. I don't know him very well, but I see him at family events now and then, and I always enjoy talking to him. The last time I saw him (last month), he told me how Bush makes him cringe, even though he used to root for him, and he also deplored Cheney's "Fuck yourself" moment. Then he told me he was thinking of voting for Nader. Unfortunately, I didn't question him about this, though I put in a few words for Kerry. Later, I asked my sister, who's closer to him and our cousin, why he would turn from Bush to Nader, of all people, when Nader is so much more liberal. Her answer: "He can't bring himself to vote for a Democrat."

In other words, the right's demonizing of Democrats has worked.

says he's considering Nader because of Nader's statements that there is no difference between the Dems and Repugs. He doesn't agree with Nader otherwise, but he is disillusioned with Bush and the "no difference" meme may be good enough for him.

I worry that the pukes are floating this vote Nader meme in order to give him SOME base numbers in the event that they have to screw with the numbers come November. Push enough numbers into the Kerry excel sheet, and they can claim that WE voted for Nader in droves.
I personally know of only one democrat who has even threatened to vote for Nader.

Now removing foil hat.....

in-law and I a month or so ago discussing Iraq, Bush, 9/11, civil liberties etc. Bro-in-law 2 is a Vietnam vet (2 tours) and a history teacher - and he hates Bush with a passion. By the time we were done, Bro-in-law 1 was asking "How come I've never heard this stuff?" and questioning a lot of his assumptions. He is a conservative - Bush is not. What I heard last night was disgust and his statement that he'd vote for Nader instead of Bush was a protest against Bush.

At least in this instance, you can leave the tin foil hat on the shelf.

w/o actually voting for him. They aren't thinking this thru logically, they're just assuming the situation is the same as 2000, in which Nader votes DID hurt Gore. So they think ANY Nader vote must hurt Kerry, even lost Bush votes, because it did that last time. Plus, they are getting pushed to sign petitions to get Nader on the ballot, and that also conflates with the 2000 meme. "Oh, we should vote for Nader to hurt Kerry."

Get it? ;)

It's fairly typical pug thinking, take a couple of aspirin.

and sit on their hands....so those hands won't register other repulsican votes.

I posted above about my racist friend who said he would never vote Dem.

Well, he called me again tonight and OH MY GOD...We debated National Health Care, Welfare, Balanced Budgets, the War and the environment (he is a big fisherman and wants the landscape protected).

I can't believe it, but he said, "I don't know Kevin...I may go Democrat this year."

I don't know what to say.

Projections based on Kahunas prophecy's: Kerry 64 % Nader 19 % Bush 17%

hunters and fishing enthusiasts are starting to wake up to the reality of what bush wants to do with America's wilderness areas. And because they value their sport, and plentiful wild, open, unsullied areas (where their chosen game can freely flourish - so there's a LOT of it available to hunt or fish) where they pursue it, AND they like to be able to eat what they've caught or killed without fear of toxins or contaminations, bush has them increasingly concerned.

And this is a GOOD thing. Your friend will find his favorite fishing areas horribly polluted, encroached upon, and perhaps PERMANENTLY and IRREPARABLY compromised, if bush gets another four years.

I remember seeing a speech of James Watt's, back in the dreaded Reagan days, that just astounded me for its doublespeak. He was the Interior Secretary at the time - the biggest blight ever to be visited upon the U.S. Department of the Interior this side of Gale Norton. And I remember how he blathered on about how America's forests and wilderness areas needed to be opened to ALL THE PEOPLE. What he MEANT, but did not say, was that the poor unfortunates who were being left out of this national treasure were loggers, strip miners, oil drillers, road builders, developers, and concessionaires. But he painted this portrait of egregious unfairness that the policies of the Democrats and liberals were completely exclusionary and elitist and unfair, keeping so many good, honest, loyal Americans away from our natural heritage. Boo hoo hoo. Thank God he's been relegated to the dustbin of history. A completely polluted one deep down underneath several hundred yards of landfill, I hope. At least he's not among the retreads from the Reagan-bush senior era who's been allowed to slither back into power! What a bastard! James Watt I do NOT miss. May he forever find good swimming in the Love Canal.

hunters and fishing enthusiasts are starting to wake up to the reality of what bush wants to do with America's wilderness areas. And because they value their sport, and plentiful wild, open, unsullied areas (where their chosen game can freely flourish - so there's a LOT of it available to hunt or fish) where they pursue it, AND they like to be able to eat what they've caught or killed without fear of toxins or contaminations, bush has them increasingly concerned.

Besides which, isn't Kerry a hunter ?

Thanks for all your debating efforts!

However, after seeing some of the arguments here, and the effects of the DLC, I guess I have to admit that I hae some mixed feelings about more RW voting DEM........ more watering down of the DEM ideals, and there won't be any left.

Kanary

It must be the first time that I've felt some real enthusiasm and optimism since the Ken Starr days. So may good posts and good news.

Ok, this time I really am going to bed. Good night DU and all of the great thinking people of planet earth.

;-Þ

here remember this, and realize that it wasn't all DEM votes..... BEFORE they froth at the mouth.

Maybe now would be a good time to share the films "Uncovered" and "Outfoxed" with him....

Maybe a little dose of reality wouldn't hurt at this juncture.

There's still time, so don't give up...... that epiphany may yet happen for him.

Kanary

yesterday. I was planning on sending he and his son home with it today :-) They think Fox is the next best source for facts after the Bible.

The Nader vote may end up working against BushCo THIS time. :toast:

that the repugs are helping him gather signatures and otherwise backing him.

I laughed at how low they will go to get * elected. I hope it backfires...:kick:

If too many bolt for Bush and vote Nader, he might get more than 5% which would give him federal matching funds for next time.

It can't be because of actual political issues, since Nader is way over to the left of Kerry. (I'm going on the assumption that these Republicans are still Repubs; that they didn't all of a sudden switch from the Right all the way over to the far Left end of the political spectrum.)

What does Nader have to offer to a Republican that Kerry doesn't? Do these Republicans think the Democratic party isn't Left enough?

Is there even a single issue where Nader is to the right of Kerry?
Nader essentially wants to de-privitize everything that has been privitized during the last few decades.
Being a lefty, I think that'd be a good thing; the main reason not to vote for Nader is that he just doesn't stand a chance to be elected president. So a vote for Nader is one less vote for the only candidate who does have a chance to defeat Bush.

I find it very strange that a right-winger would actually support Nader on the issues. It must be because of some other reason and i'm very curious as to WHY Repubs "can't bring themselves to vote for Kerry" - who is in many ways 'Republican-light'.

Would these Republicans *really* prefer the far-left policies of Nader over the non-Bushite-but-still-pretty-conservative policies of Kerry?

with Dem = BAD, Repub = GOOD. Even when they are starting to realize Repub = GOOD has some holes in it, they are still bought into Dem = BAD especially hearing it 24/7 on hate radio. Nader is significantly left of the Dems, but he does not bear the Dem label, so that's why these idiots would vote for him.

As long as they don't vote for Bush, it's fine. But I would actually prefer they stay home. If they actually go to the polls, there is a significant risk that idiots like this will still vote Bush at the last minute, based on their old "branding". Also, to the extent that Nader exists at all as any kind of entity, spoiling for either side, he could be used as a mask for vote fraud against US (stealing Kerry votes into the Nader column).

It really is laughable that these bozos would think about voting Nader before Kerry.

Voting for Nader only inflates his ego.

But I've run into a few Republicans who may go Libertarian as a protest vote.

Otherwise, tell him that it's not necessarily bad to vote for a Democrat. Kerry's probably closer to the Goldwater model of a conservative than Bush will ever be.

I thought the exact same thing as you did with your Bro-in-Law. He won't vote for a Democrat.. but at least he is not voting for bushie. He must be losing millions of votes to Nader....

I was talking to a stranger the other day... and she told me that one of her staunch republican family member is also feeling that way too. She also mentioned he would NEVER vote for a Democrat...I said.. tell him to vote Nader....just don't let him vote for Bush. She agreed...:kick:

... and away from Nader. I think undecided's/Pissed off's are intending to vote for Nader as a protest vote and have little to no idea that the Libs are out there.

If enough former-Pugs bolt to the Libs, we may be able to accomplish one of two things:

1. Get the Pugs to realize that the neo-con fundie base is a liability and pull the party back from that edge, or

2. Do permanent damage to the GOP by splintering it.

The Libs were against the Patriot Act, and against the war, and definitely against the Fundie branch of the Pug party.

What an utter dipshit. Anyway, I'm glad he's not voting for Bush.

Have you noticed?? At first, months back, when people were asked (after picking between Kerry and Bush), who they would vote for with Nader in the race, it was very much looking like most of the hit was taken by Kerry. He would go down like 5% and Bush either gained or went down 1%. Now Bush is at least sliding as much as Kerry and, thus, the margin between the two of them remains the same. I kept looking at those stats over and over in these polls of about the last month or so and started to realize that Nader is doing the same damage to Bush as Kerry. And in a few, I thought it was really bizaar because Bush got hurt more than Kerry.

The good news:
He and his wife voted for Bush last year. He cannot stand Bush's policies, and he thinks the Iraq war was a terrible mistake. He's not crazy about Kerry, but he and his wife will be voting for him.

The bad news:
He moved to California.

But from what I read here, and what I hear from my Republican acquaintances there are lots Bush voters who will either be sitting out or voting Kerry this year.

are now sporting Kerry signs in their front yards. A beautiful sight!

recently stated that bush will be out.

Oh and spoke to my mom and step-father tonight - he voted for Bush in 2000 and will be voting for Kerry this year *VBG* (North Carolina).

Mom had a lot of questions because she swallowed the Swift Boat Vets lies and was worried because Kerry was opposed to abortion - I got her straightened out again and back in the Kerry camp :-)

it's our patriotic duty to vote Bush out of office. The whole world knows this administration’s word is no good. In fact, Bush is probably the first American President to be scorned, looked down upon and viewed with distrust and suspicion by the entire free world.

As Americans it’s our duty to put things right again. It’s our duty to repair our relationship with the world. Under President Kerry’s new administration we’ll do so. It’s time for a change and I predict Bush is going to join his father as another one term Bush. We deserve better and we’re going to get better. We are going to go to the polls like we never have done before!

Remember the words of Adlai Stevenson. If the republicans promise to stop lying about the democrats, then we’ll stop telling the truth about republicans!