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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 12:49 PM
Original message
Opus Dei.
Your thoughts? I know Scalia is Opus Dei. Isn't Ashcroft Opus Dei?

Hawkeye-X
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. Opus Dei is a Roman Catholic organization
and AssCrack is Fundie christian.

2 entirely different breeds, just similar ways of seeing the world.
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. A Pentecostalist, actually
They're very different from other types of fundamentalist Christians. There is actually a deep distrust by doctrinally "correct" fundamentalists of the mystical and emotive elements of Pentecostalism. Ashcroft's father belonged to a "snake handling" sect. It's an interesting distinction. You can't lump all Christian extremists together. There are important differences.
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It's all fighting over meaningless trivia to me.
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Maybe to you...
but you're using the "all--insert ethnic group here--look alike to me" rationale. There are differences, and they can be important.
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. False analogy.
Every ethnic group you can name has sane people (usually in the majority) among them.

I can't say the same for fundamentalists, evangelicals, pentecostals, or any of their ilk, no matter what insignificant doctrinal differences they may have amongst themselves.
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billyskank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Nothing necessarily wrong with any of those.
Evangelicals believe that salvation can come from the Bible. Comes from the greek evangelion, meaning scripture. They distrust the idea of a professional priesthood who are the supposed doorkeepers to God.

Fundamentalists simply take everything in their scripture as literal truth. There's nothing inherently wrong with that either, so long as you don't start thinking that you have to personally do something about everyone else who doesn't believe what you do.

I don't know much about Pentecostals, but I can't believe they're insane to a man and woman as you imply.

I think the people you have a problem with is bigots. That's fine, and I'm with you on that. But you shouldn't cloud the issue by using the other words to mean the same thing, because the mere fact that someone is an evangelical, or a Pentecostal, or a fundamentalist, doesn't automatically mean they're your enemy. It's bigotry that's the problem; it always was and it always will be.

My $0.02.
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Alright, I hear you.
Problem is, members of those groups always seem to make ME the enemy.

I'm not an atheist by any means. It's just that I don't believe in any god that members of those faiths would recognize as valid.

It's easy to SAY not to return hate for hate; it's quite another thing to actually DO it.
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billyskank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Yeah, there's some real assholes out there.
Don't let them drag you down to their level.
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Despite the fact that I'm an atheist, I find your generalization insulting
There are decent religious people of every stripe. It's unfair and demeaning to lump those in with the hateful extremists.

And although I am far from an apologist, I'm not saying Ashcroft is either of the above.

The doctrinal differences are far from insignificant. Did you know that evangelical Protestants (Southern Baptists, for example) don't even consider Catholics to be Christian? That is hardly an insignificant difference. Since the discussion here is about Opus Dei, a strictly Catholic organization, I think that is quite an important point. One doesn't even believe the other is Christian. How can they be tossed into the same pile?
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I never tossed Opus Dei in together with fundies, so...
stop putting words in my mouth. Go back and reread my original post.

I GREW UP Roman Catholic. I also spent some time in the Mormon faith. I got severely burned by BOTH.

YES, there are good people of every faith and belief. But that is usually in SPITE of their religion, not because of it.

The true focus of any faith before "religion" comes into it boils down to:

1) Belief in "God" (however you define that).

2) Acting in love toward "God", others and yourself.

EVERYTHING else is just dogma, and damn it, is NOT important, no matter how you try to dress it up. And religious people who stress out over such differences are basically fools.

And yes, btw, I am aware that many fundamentalists and evangelicals don't consider Catholics to be real Christians. They say the same about Mormons, too (but they have a real point, there.).
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Recovering Catholic also
I think modern religion is very doctrinally driven, and that's why there are so many splinter groups. Dogma has replaced the faith experience for the modern religious.

The magic was taken out of the religious experience, except for the Pentacostalists, interestingly enough, which is why they're viewed with such contempt by the doctrinally "correct" evangelicals.

You may think that's an unwise trend (and I would agree with you), but these angels dancing on the head of a pin are excruciatingly important to these people. Nuts? Maybe. Kinda leaves God sitting alone at the table scratching her head.

I did not mean to put words into your mouth. The evangelical/Opus Dei connection is important, because they've managed to put aside their differences long enough to form a united front on social issues.
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Yeah, we both got a bit carried away here...
And yes, the connection between Opus Dei and the dominionist evangelicals is rather, umm, interesting to say the least. The mormons have also politically allied themselves with dominionist evangelicals, not realizing (or perhaps just in denial about) that they'd be some of the first herded into concentration camps if the dominionists get their way.

Again, sorry if I got a bit too exorcised (pardon the pun) about our exchange.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. This is a VITAL point
They may have political solidarity, but on matters of doctrine, the various sects fight like cats and ... other cats.

You'll see books in Baptist religious bookstores like, "Cults In America: The History Mormonism" and "The Tragedy of the Jehovah's Witnesses".

Another one of the bigger doctrinal schisms today is premillenialism vs postmillenialism -- in other words, the split between the "Left Behind" Christians and those who insist we must establish a Theocracy before Jesus comes back, which is a core belief in Christian Reconstructionism (Rousas Rushdoony-Gary North-Chalcedon Institute).

Even within religions, there is a great amount of contention. Opus Dei is certainly not beloved of all of Roman Catholicism. While Pope JPII has granted Opus Dei "Personal Prelature" status, it's a slightly nicer form of "Double Secret Probation". It means that OD is looked on with favor by the Pope, but is still feeling the heat of scrutiny from the Doctors (theological intellectuals) of the Church (the Catholic version of "Doktors for BOB").

This is a good point, lapislzi -- and one that makes it easier for me to sleep at night!

--bkl
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. It is important whether we are plunged into anothe Dark Ages
or into oblivion

by a snake handler, or by someone who worships an Italian politician??
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Maybe
because the glue holding them together is not very strong. They hang together on a few key issues (like abortion), but they have no common ground theologically, and being the intolerant types they are, this will be their undoing in the end.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. I think it is likelier that they will turn on one another
over their own commitment to religious orthodoxy than that they will stay united against the rest of humanity.

Fundie Islam makes a pretty good unifying force though for all the various and sundry christian wack jobs.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Don't think Ashcroft is with the Opus Dei Division of AmeriTaliban
Edited on Thu Aug-12-04 12:50 PM by tom_paine
He is with the Evangelical Wing of AmeriTaliban.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
39. He's with the Tali-born-agains!
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. CUTL! EVIL CULT! they're the evil cultist of catholism.. Alan Keyes is 1
Edited on Thu Aug-12-04 01:09 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
O'Lielly & Hannity, Keyes, Scalia, Thomas, Rick Santurum,

Opus Dei Building
243 Lexington Av.
New York
17 story building costs: US$ 42 million

No Ashcroft is a Chruch of Christ FUNDIE......

http://www.mond.at/opus.dei/opus.dei.uo.faq.html#bad
What are the negative things in Opus Dei?
A: In short:


The Fascist ideology in Escriva's teachings. The fundamentalism. The
Intolerance towards other religions.
The dishonesty.
The danger inherent in the undemocratic structure of blindly following orders.
The danger inherent in the psychological control they have of their members due to the ``weekly chat'' where they have to tell the innermost details of their souls to their spiritual leaders.
The aggressive and manipulative way in which they try to catch new members.
The evil character of the founder.
The fact that they do not reveal their true goals and keep a lot of material secret from the public.
The smug thinking of belonging to an elite.

6.1 Q: What is fascism?
A: A good definition of it can be found at a site dedicated to reminding us of the crimes of the holocaust. (by Chip Berlet) http://www.remember.org/hist.root.what.html

An other good definition comes from Umberto Eco (14 features of fascism): http://www.loop.com/~bramble/fascist.html I used the one from Chip Berlet. (to compare Escriva's teachings with the (mostly equivalent definition from Eco is left as an exercise to the reader:))

Here are some quotations from that document:

The seeds of fascism, however, were planted in Italy. ``Fascism is reaction,'' said Mussolini, but reaction to what? The reactionary movement following World War I was based on a rejection of the social theories that formed the basis of the 1789 French Revolution, and whose early formulations in this country had a major influence on the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and Bill of Rights. . . . Fascists particularly loathed the social theories of the French Revolution and its slogan: ``Liberty, Equality, Fraternity.''


Liberty from oppressive government intervention in the daily lives of its citizens, from illicit searches and seizures, from enforced religious values, from intimidation and arrest for dissenters; and liberty to cast a vote in a system in which the majority ruled but the minority retained certain inalienable rights;
Equality in the sense of civic equality, egalitarianism, the notion that while people differ, they all should stand equal in the eyes of the law;
Fraternity in the sense of the brotherhood of mankind; that all women and men, the old and the young, the infirm and the healthy, the rich and the poor, share a spark of humanity that must be cherished on a level above that of the law, and that binds us all together in a manner that continuously re-affirms and celebrates life.

This is what fascism as an ideology was reacting against. Its support came primarily from desperate people anxious and angry over their perception that their social and economic position was sinking. Frustrated with the constant risk of chaos, uncertainty and inefficiency implicit in a modern democracy based on these principles, fascism, the antithesis of democracy became an option.. . . Fascism and Nazism as ideologies involve to varying degrees some of the following hallmarks:


Nationalism and super-patriotism with a sense of historic mission;
Aggressive militarism even to the extent of glorifying war as good for the national or individual spirit;
Authoritarian reliance on a leader or elite not constitutionally responsible to an electorate;
Cult of personality around a charismatic leader;
Reaction against the values of Modernism, usually with emotional attacks against both liberalism and communism;
Exhortations for the homogeneous masses of common folk (Volkish in German, Populist in the U.S.) to join voluntarily in a heroic mission - often metaphysical and romanticized in character;
Dehumanization and scapegoating of the enemy - seeing the enemy as an inferior or subhuman force, perhaps involved in a conspiracy that justifies eradicating them;
The self image of belonging to a superior form of social organisation beyond socialism, capitalism and democracy;
Elements of national socialist ideological roots, for example, ostensible support for the industrial working class or farmers; but ultimately, the forging of an alliance with an elite sector of society.
Abandonment of any consistent ideology in a drive for state power.

6.2 Q: Why are they Fascistic?
A: The term ``Fascist'' has created some confusion. The ideology of Opus Dei has all the features commonly found in the abstract political category of ``fascism'' even though it is a very special form of this ideology, since it is mixed with elements of the Christian religion. Reading Escriva's book ``The Way'' with the above definition of fascism in mind, it is evident that he is the perfect Fascist. Here are some indicators: In #849 he directly states that he is against Voltaire's ideas.

Fascist loathe Liberty:

They have this law and order mentality: every thing should be under the control of the leaders. Large chapters in the book are about leadership and blind obedience. I guess Hitler would have loved this book. (read #56 till #80) Of course, they want to control the information you get. Like in #339:


You shall not buy books without the advice of an experienced Christian. It is so easy to buy something useless or mischievous. Often people believe they are carrying a book under their arm ... but they only carry a load of mud. (Josemaria Escriva, The Way, #339)

According to Maria del Carmen Tapia they also read the private mail of their members. And of course they want enforced religious values, too. Some People argue that other spiritual works also recommend obedience as useful but this does not prove it is a good thing. Particularly, the blind obedience (blind because the Opus also controls the information one can get) is dangerous. Normally if a person joins a monastery he will have to submit to some obedience there too: but that obedience usually only concerns ``outside'' things. You will do the house work they want you to do and you would go to mass regularly ... etc. but you would still be allowed to think independently. The obedience that also concerns mind and thinking is of a much higher level of obedience. Would you want to live in a world where the way you have to think is dictated? Criticising religious things and a free will is not wanted and not allowed: (see e.g. #945, #53, ...)

Fascists loathe Equality:

Escriva teaches that people should not even be equal in the eyes of God!! (#98 priests are more valuable than other people). In many others the need for leadership is expressed (e.g. #60, #61) the whole chapters about leadership all implicitly suggest that there are people who are superior and this is their legitimation of why they should rule over others. (I think there is a teaching where he explicitly says that he does not believe in equality. Can't find it, though ...)

Fascists loathe Fraternity.

One would think that Fraternity is something every person would immediately agree with, but his idea of fraternity is rather limited to the fraternity within the sect. (#458,) Also it is not the humanity that is a motivation for fraternity but a selfish way of being strong within the sect and against THE WORLD. (#460, #462, #55, #924) There seems to be no idea in them that the people outside the sect are equal humans too; they are just potential victims for their ``apostolate'', enemies, or even ``devils''. At the moment where he calls someone ``devil'' he excludes these people from: ``... a spark of humanity that must be cherished on a level above that of the law, and that binds us all together in a manner that continuously re-affirms and celebrates life'' as it is expressed so neatly in the definition of fraternity. Furthermore the characteristics of fascism from the above document have been:


Nationalism and super-patriotism with a sense of historic mission. Nationalism is something they can not really afford as they want to be globally active. Nonetheless they do think a little bit of nationalism is good for being Catholic: read #525. Obviously their goal is not to win power in a country but to win power in the Catholic Church and in the whole world. Where fascism in general needs enemies to blame for all the evil Opus Dei has to be very selective. Because of its global nature it can not as easily pick other nations. It would be a dangerous game to openly spread hate against other religions. This would lead easily to contradictions with their own spirituality (one of their good sides) but also to intolerance of other religions, which is not hidden very well (see my chapter about tolerance in my FAQ. In any event, the main enemies they picked are:
all people who criticise them.
communists.
some mysterious Freemason... dark world conspiracy.
Glorifying war: see e.g.:#306 or #311. It is not clear how much the words are metaphors or how much they are meant as written. (They are in a chapter entitled ``more from the inner life'' (at least this is the name of the chapter in the German edition), but his points often have other meanings than just the one that the chapter would suggest. In Spain there are many Opus members in top positions in the army (from the TAZ/Berlin 15.9.1995). Or read about the Archbishop of El Salvador below.
Authoritarian reliance on a leader or elite not constitutionally responsible to an electorate. There is no democracy within the Opus Dei. The points which emphasise the importance of leadership are numerous.
Cult of personality around a charismatic leader. It may be that he was a man with very bad traits. It is curious that such a person has any status at all. However, in the practical life of the Opus Dei the members had to treat him and is relatives like if he where God himself. (read e.g. Carmen Tapia's book). Members still write letters to him although he is already dead. If you go and ask Opus Dei members, they will tell you that they have a lot of material about Escriva that they do not show to the public because it would destroy the portrait that they have painted of him.
Reaction against the values of Modernism, usually with emotional attacks against both liberalism and communism. e.g. see #849. Communism is not directly mentioned but the anti-communism is everywhere in Opus Dei.
Exhortations for the homogeneous masses of common folk (Volkish in German, Populist in the U.S.) to join voluntarily in a heroic mission - often metaphysical and romanticized in character. (What could be more metaphysical than religion?) Also, he constantly appeals to heroic feelings when he describes how noble it would be to serve the Opus Dei.
Dehumanization and scapegoating of the enemy - seeing the enemy as an inferior or subhuman force, perhaps involved in a conspiracy that justifies eradicating them. (Enemies are devils. or see e.g.: #833 where he constructs the image of Freemasons as a demon-like enemy;)
The self image of belonging to a superior form of social organisation beyond socialism, capitalism and democracy. Most Christians will see their belief not as something that contradicts democracy or socialism. However, by merging all his political statements in his book, Escriva places his beliefs in direct competition with political ideologies. From his Fascist ideas it is clear that he is against socialism. All the points about leadership/obedience show that he does not think all too well of democracy. I think he has no problem with capitalism, if you have enough money you can also buy a little bit of holiness by being a ``cooperator'' (see their homepage).
While their ideological root is definitely not directly national socialistic, the forging of an alliance with an elite of society is exactly what they do. What `` ostensible support for the industrial working class or farmers'' concerns: They keep them silent and obedient by promising them a better life in heaven with their ``sanctification of ordinary work'' slogan. This is an abuse of religion.
Abandonment of any consistent ideology in a drive for State power. Fascist ideology is in contradiction with Christianity and so it is not all to easy to combine these two things. The question is: Why did he press all the Fascist ideology into this book at all? Of course if you want to construct a sect than the ideology comes handy: The leadership/obedience constellation is especially useful, but then he could have hidden the ideology much better behind religiose explanations. The fact that the ideology is so open, suggests it must have been something very important to Escriva. But to make his sect a success he does not care that it is in contradiction with Christianity. (Maybe he did not see that at the beginning, but I imagine that a lot of people will have talked about that topic with him. If he did not want to agree with a logical argumentation he used his 2+2+God equation (#471). To agree with the arguments of others? Never! (#54) Furthermore: Inconsistencies and contradictions gives you more freedom when you want to use the ideology to direct people into certain directions. When you want to command them, the one thing you can use is this point, and when you want to command them otherwise you use another.

One last point: Like the Nazis' head the ``entartete Kunst'' (art that did not conform to the official sense of beauty) Escriva also labels modern art as ``morbid'' and ``subjective''. (While, of course it is subjective - but it does not hide that - but he implicitly claims that he has the objective truth). Cutting down the freedom of arts is also a sign of Fascistic and totalitarian governments.

Conclusion: As it can be seen there is a lot of Fascism in the book of Escriva and in his sect. The reader who is aware of it will find a lot more in his book and in the behaviour of Opus Dei. The strong focus on leadership in particular, makes this organisation extremely dangerous, and with the mind control of the weekly ``confident'' talks, their leaders have incredible power over their followers.

more..


http://www.americamagazine.org/articles/martin-opusdei.cfm
OPUS DEI IS THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL group in the Catholic Church today. To its members it is nothing less than The Work of God, the inspiration of Blessed Josemaría Escrivá, who advanced the work of Christ by promoting the sanctity of everyday life. To its critics it is a powerful, even dangerous, cult-like organization that uses secrecy and manipulation to advance its agenda. At the same time, many Catholics admit knowing little about this influential group. Moreover, because of the dichotomy of views on the group, and perhaps because of its influence in Vatican circles, it is difficult to find balanced reporting on Opus Dei.

This article is a look at Opus Dei’s activities in the United States. It is based on material written by Opus Dei and its critics, as well as on interviews with current and former Opus Dei members and with priests, religious, laypersons, campus ministers, scholars and journalists who have encountered Opus Dei in the United States.


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MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. ASHCROFT IS PENTACOSTAL
They are a different breed of cat than the Evangelicals. The Pentacostals are the Holy Rollers. They get themselves all worked up into ectasy and then speak in tongues and faint and all of that stuff.

The Evangelicals here laugh at them for their silly beliefs.

I guess they don't realize how silly Rapture and Endtimes and all of that malarky sounds to those on the outside.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Fascists loathe women...
Edited on Thu Aug-12-04 01:31 PM by KamaAina
The building pictured above, at 34th and Lex in Manhattan (just a few short blocks east of the Garden, for anyone who may be planning to visit NYC later in the month, hint hint...) was built only a few years ago, with separate entrances for men and women!!!!

They really do want to take us back to the '50s -- the 1350s.

A few more Opus Dei types deserving of a shoutout: FBI mole Robert Hanssen, Robert "Contempt of Court" Novak, Sen. Sam Brownback (R-KS), Supreme Court "justice" Clarence Thomas. The last three converted to Catholicism just to join Opus Dei:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2069194

In late July, a tiny item in the Washington Post announced some surprising news: Sen. Sam Brownback, a Kansas Republican and former United Methodist best known for his opposition to cloning, converted to Catholicism on June 27. But just as notable as Brownback's conversion was the man who performed it, the Rev. John McCloskey. Brownback is the third political celebrity to convert to Catholicism under McCloskey's guidance—the other two were journalist Robert Novak and economist-commentator Lawrence Kudlow. The priest, who operates out of Washington's Catholic Information Center a couple of blocks from the White House, has made himself a spiritual K Street lobbyist....

That focus on elites is a hallmark of Opus Dei, the conservative Catholic society to which McCloskey belongs. As James Martin put it in the Jesuit weekly America, "Opus Dei is the most controversial movement in the Catholic Church today." It's fiercely evangelical and fully devoted to the pope and the Catholic hierarchy. It's also a powerful force within the Vatican. The pope's spokesman is a member, and its founder, a Spanish priest named Josemaria Escriva (who died in 1975), will be canonized Oct. 6. Opus Dei is not well-known among American Catholics, nor is it particularly popular among them—3,000 U.S. members and holding for the past 20 years, if Opus Dei's numbers are to be believed. (And there's no reason not to believe them.)

But Opus Dei's Vatican influence and its doctrinal rigidity have made it the target of tough criticism from Catholic liberals for controversial practices such as self-flagellation, intolerance of dissent, and strict segregation of the sexes. The Rev. Richard McBrien, a Notre Dame professor of theology, says the group's beliefs are a throwback to the days before Vatican II, the council that liberalized Catholic teachings in the 1960s. Adds Martin, the Jesuit author of the America article, "What you have to assent to to be Catholic is the creed that we say at Mass. One of the criticisms leveled at liberal Catholics is that they're cafeteria Catholics. But you can find cafeteria Catholics on the right that choose to ignore church teachings on social justice, on the rights of workers and the poor, on just war theory."


:scared: :scared: :scared:

edit: Hanssen, not Mueller, was the Opus Dei mole. There has also been talk about Louis Freeh, which would explain a LOT.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
41. My niece, an Opus Dei member stayed at the NYC residence
for 2 years. She was in the United states, from Chile, studying nursing. She's from a wealthy family, supporters of Pinochet (who was a big supporter of Opus Dei in Chile).

We would see her when we went to New York and she always wanted to meet for lunch or an early dinner. We asked if it was because she was supposed to be in by a certain time and she said no, it was because of the rats.

Apparently if she went back to the residence at night when it was dark, there were rats running around the area in front of the entrance. I couldn't understand it because it's a brand new building in a very upper-crust section of New York. It was later, when I learned that the women had to enter through a separate entrance in the side/back, that she wasn't allowed to enter through the well-lit front entrance on the street. She had to enter through the side, in the dark, with the rats.

How disgusting! I figure she didn't explain it to me because she knew what my reaction would be. I don't put up with women being treated as second-class citizens anywhere! It's why I left the Catholic Church.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-04 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #41
52. I see nothing has changed in Chile in regards to women
and yet Chilean women have been more openly vocal about their rights than many in S. A. Glad I chose to embrace my American side although it hasn't been a free lunch here either where women's rights are concerned.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
51. Apparently, they have no use for women either unless
they are wearing black dresses and veils and who are preferrably behind a grill with their mending and jobs making communion bread and altar cloths.
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. Who was that famous Opus Dei guy... the spy
it was a few years ago. He was US FBI or CIA and he was busted for treason (spy) and I think he killed himself.

He was a really out there Opus Dei guy.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I think his name was Robert Hansen...nt
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. you're right! that's who I was thinking of. n/t
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GR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. Clarence Thomas and Sam Brownback Are Opus Dei....Scaarrreeey
Edited on Thu Aug-12-04 01:25 PM by GR
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
37. So is Louis Freeh and it's said that Bob Novak and Peggy
Noonan are or are on the edges of Opus Dei.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. The FBI's mole/traitor, Robert Hanssen, was in Opus Dei for a long time.
:puke:
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
38. And don't forget Rick Santorum!
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
15. Suing Vatican bank, insurance official charges racketeering ($600 million)
Suing Vatican bank, insurance official charges racketeering ($600 million)

JACKSON, Miss. -- The torching of financier Martin Frankel's $3 million mansion in Greenwich, Conn., was meant to destroy evidence of an insurance scam that cost Mississippi and other states millions, police said. But not everything went up in flames.

Firefighters searching the rubble found Frankel's pornographic videos, jewel-encrusted mobile phones, Ouija board and "Things to Do List." No. 1 was: "Launder more money NOW."

snip.........

While unraveling Frankel's web of trickery, Dale found a thread that led into the secretive halls of the Vatican. And he is determined to follow it, even though, as he says, "This step meant some soul searching."

In a lawsuit Dale filed, which is moving toward a jury trial in U.S. District Court in Jackson, he claims Vatican officials violated the federal Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act. Damages, if Dale prevails, could be more than $600 million.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc


From the article:

Those who did appear and were questioned included Thomas Bolan, a former New York prosecutor and powerhouse fund-raiser for the Republican party and the Catholic church; Monsignor Emilio Colagiovanni, a member of the board that provides the pope's legal counsel; and the Rev. Peter Jacobs, a New York priest who was also a Vatican insider.

"He showed me his ring and said it was a gift from Pope Paul or Pope John, some pope," Dale said of Jacobs. "He said, `The pope blessed this ring _ do you want to kiss it?"'


The pretender : how Martin Frankel fooled the financial world

Edited on Sun Jul-04-04 07:12 PM by seemslikeadream
Title and Author: The pretender : how Martin Frankel fooled the financial world and led the feds on one of the most publicized manhunts in history / Ellen Joan Pollock.
Publisher: New York : Simon and Schuster, c2002.
Call Number: 364.162 P776 203-8266


http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:UP79dOavBOEJ:www.n...

FBI ARRESTS PRIEST IN FRANKEL CASE
Monsignor Emilio Colagiovanni, an 81-year-old Catholic Priest, is being held in Bridgeport, Conn., following his arrest by FBI agents in connection with the investigation of the multi-million dollar fraud and embezzlement case against financier Martin Frankel. According to a report in the Hartford Courant, Colagiovanni, an Italian who lives in Rome, allowed Frankel to use the name of the Monitor Ecclesiastus Foundation, which he heads, as part of his scheme to wrongfully transfer the funds of several insurance companies Frankel controlled. Federal prosecutors in Conn. obtained a warrant for Colagiovanni's arrest when they learned that he was visiting relatives in Ohio.
http://www.insurancejournal.com/magazines/west/2001/09/...

Bolan was a founding trustee of the St. Francis of Assisi Foundation, the purported charitable organization a charity with links to the Vatican that Martin Frankel had established in the British Virgin Islands (and tied to the British-American Commonwealth dirty-money apparatus, according to the New Federalist). Martin Frankel recently fled the country after exposure of an alleged embezzlement scheme of $3 billion from insurance companies. Bolan is also a friend and former top adviser to President Reagan. When Pope John Paul visited Alaska in 1981, Bolan was flown there on Air Force One to represent the president. Records show that Bolan was flown to Italy at Frankel's expense on March 9 for a meeting with the Vatican's secretariat - the Holy See's equivalent of secretary of state - concerning the St. Francis foundation's relationship with the Vatican-funded Monitor Ecclesiasticus Foundation.
more
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Martin+Frankel%22+mas...

IRS seizes estates belonging to Frankel
GREENWICH, Conn. — The Internal Revenue Service has seized an estate owned by Martin Frankel, the former financier from Toledo, Ohio, who is accused of bilking insurance companies out of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Mr. Frankel, who has been in custody since his Sept. 4 arrest in Germany, owned two estates in Greenwich. The first, a 4-acre property valued at $3 million, was taken by the FBI in May on allegations it served as headquarters for a money laundering and investment fraud enterprise.

The IRS seized the second estate, valued at $2.5 million, alleging it was bought with money that had been wired from a Swiss bank account into which Mr. Frankel deposited $44 million of stolen insurance funds.
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:OnAYhOHVMqYJ:www.e...


Mississippi insurance chief sues Vatican

Colagiovanni also supervised Monitor Ecclesiasticus, a canon law review distributed globally to bishops and cardinals. The publication offered a special advantage for Frankel. As a non-Catholic, he could not open a Vatican Bank account, but Monitor Ecclesiasticus did have an account. When Frankel had money he didn't want the Internal Revenue Service to count, he would wire it to the law review's account.

Frankel flew Vatican officials by Concorde to his Connecticut mansion to complete details. Dale claims that Salerno approved the arrangement. Salerno went on to oversee the Vatican supreme court. Responding to requests for comment from Salerno, the Vatican Press Office said, "There is a trial under way. The trial continues and we are not interfering."

Insurance company officials in Tennessee, Mississippi, Arkansas, Missouri and Oklahoma were targeted by Frankel. When some of the firms' executives got jumpy about their prospective new owner, Colagiovanni reassured them, the complaint says, and sometimes gave them personal, behind-the-scenes tours of Vatican City complete with photo ops.

more
http://newsobserver.com/24hour/business/story/1474598p-...

Prosecutors say Frankel used the charity's money to buy financially desperate insurance companies, then spent policyholders' money on drugs, diamonds, sex clubs, vacations, cars, call girls and Concorde tickets.

http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=1997969&nav=3YeX...


Fugitive fraud suspect offers (at last count) six identities

by Todd Lewan
Associated Press

He's a man of many names.

On his birth certificate, he is Martin Richard Frankel. This identifies the guy accused of pulling off one of the largest frauds in modern finance, an operator who built a phantom empire by bilking small insurance companies out of at least $215 million.

This fellow disappeared in May. This fellow's name did not. It has appeared in lots of places: police blotters, court papers, IRS affidavits, FBI most-wanted list and more than a few newspaper headlines.

Sometimes it appears at the bottom of a photograph of a man in a button-down white shirt, with pasty cheeks, a half grin, greasy hair parted on the side and slung over a high forehead, squinting eyes barely visible behind the glare of thick, Woody Allen-ish spectacles.

It also appears, in bold lettering, on an arrest warrant, issued by the U.S. District Court of Connecticut, dated May 16.

"YOU ARE HEREBY COMMANDED," it reads, "to arrest Martin Frankel, aka Michael King, aka David Rosse (or "Ross"), aka Eric Stevens, aka Steve Rothschild." The document failed to mention at least two other Frankel aliases: Robert Guyer and Fausto Fausti.

Ted Bitter, a tool-and-die maker who hired Frankel as his broker 14 years ago in Toledo, Ohio, is only surprised that Frankel didn't use more aliases. "He's a pathological liar," Bitter says. "Marty's the kind who likes his own lies so much, he starts believing them."

Frankel also liked to borrow things. Sometimes he borrowed other people's money. Sometimes he borrowed their names. Sometimes he asked nicely. Sometimes he didn't bother to ask.

more
http://www.oakridger.com/stories/071299/stt_0712990042....




original thread for broken links
Suing Vatican bank, insurance official charges racketeering ($600 million)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=664582
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. Sex scandal draws intense interest in Austria
It started early in the week when the Austrian weekly news magazine Profil published photographs of the rector and deputy rector of the seminary, the main training school for priests in this area of Austria, just west of Vienna, in which they appeared to be kissing and fondling seminary students. The publication of the photographs came some months after thousands of images, apparently downloaded from child pornography Web sites, appeared on seminary computers, prompting a police investigation.

The disclosures took on added importance because the person in charge of the St. Pölten Seminary is Bishop Kurt Krenn, for decades a prominent and outspoken conservative. Venerated by members of Austria's small ultraconservative Catholic groups he is reviled by many liberals, who have long seen him as a major obstacle to reform.

A Vienna prosecutor was expected to announce early next week the results of a police investigation into the child pornography allegations, and whether formal charges will be filed. Meanwhile, on Friday, Austrian radio reported that the prosecutor, Walter Nemec, had found child pornography on computers at several different locations in the seminary, a suggestion that viewing such images, which is illegal in Austria, was widespread.

Krenn was unavailable for comment but his spokesman, Micheal Dinhobl, defended the comments the bishop had made in the case. While the photographs published in Profil suggest serious impropriety, he said, they were not conclusive evidence and should not be used to destroy the reputations of the people pictured in them. Krenn, he added, has been trying to protect the two seminary leaders from, as he put it, "being destroyed in the press without a real investigation."

more
http://www.iht.com/articles/529922.html

Pope to probe porn scandal
Vienna - Pope John Paul II will personally examine a sex and pornography scandal engulfing the Austrian Catholic church, said the mass-circulation Kronen Zeitung on Sunday.

The newspaper said Vatican officials would submit documents concerning the scandal to the pontiff following his return from holidays in the Aosta Valley and resumption of duties on Monday.

The scandal revolves around some 40 000 pornographic photos and a number of films discovered on computers at a seminary in St. Poelten, west of Vienna.

Seminary bishop Kurt Krenn has incensed critics with his dismissal of some of the material as "childish pranks at a Christmas celebration" and his steadfast refusal to resign.

The head and deputy head of the seminary have already quit, but 68-year-old Krenn says he will only go if told to by the Pope.

more
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_15...

Pope 'to run' church sex probe
From Daniel Aronssohn in Vienna
July 19, 2004

But now the affair has taken a more serious turn with allegations that activities at the seminary went further than canoodling among adolescent seminarians and the staff.

"Photographs of child pornography have been found in several computers belonging to several people" at the seminary, said the prosecutor of St Poelten, Walter Nemec, adding that he had received "new complaints about sexual aggression against minors".

He said he would give more details about the investigation within the next 24 hours.

Prosecutors have been investigating alleged child abuse at the seminary for several months, but the issue came to a head when Profil published the photographs, and alleged that police had found up to 40,000 pornographic photographs,


including scenes of sex with children and animals.

more
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,1017930 ...


seemslikeadream

Bishop defiant over sex scandal
The director of the seminary, Ulrich Kuechl, has already resigned, as has his deputy Wolfgang Rothe.

The Austrian Church has not forgotten a previous sex scandal, when Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer was replaced in 1995 amid allegations that he had molested young boys.

The director of the seminary, Ulrich Kuechl, has already resigned, as has his deputy Wolfgang Rothe.

The Austrian Church has not forgotten a previous sex scandal, when Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer was replaced in 1995 amid allegations that he had molested young boys.
more
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3897449.stm

Austrian bishop derides orgy claims

Ian Traynor
Tuesday July 13, 2004
The Guardian
Bishop Krenn became the principal target of the campaign. But he is believed to have powerful allies among conservatives in the Vatican and the Pope demonstrated his support by visiting the diocese in 1998.
Rome's long silence in the face of the lies, hypocrisy, and scandals is a severe test for the faithful," he said.
more
http://www.guardian.co.uk/austria/article/0,2763,125969...



Minstrel Boy

Some things are too terrible to be true,
and yet are.

Anyone remember last year's headline "Alleged Pedophiles Helm Blair's War Room"? (http://www.counterpunch.org/james01292003.html ) That story was quickly quashed on "national security" grounds.

Or the headline from 1989: "Homosexual Prostitution Inquiry Ensares VIPS with Reagan, Bush - Call boys took midnight tour of White House"? (http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/02/1570946.php ) That story was so beyond belief, most everyone pretends it never happened.

Or the recent spate of international cases of murderous pedophile rings, catering to their nation's elites, and in turn protected by them?

If you don't remember, learn about them here. It's depressing as hell, because it is hell. But if we don't know the nature of the enemy, and admit that they really are this evil, then we'll never defeat them.

Pedophile Politicians Scandal
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Connection between child trafficking in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Videos exist of satanic ritual abuse committed by US military and mercs.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Paedophilic Repugs, rape, whoring, attempted murder and the BFEE
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Conspiracy of Silence...MUST SEE!!!!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

George Bush, Pedophiles & The CIA (Bush's UN Speech)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


seemslikeadream

Thanks so much Minstrel Boy

for the reminder and here is two more from bob.

From 1997-evidence of the systemic nature of US torture and abuse
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Children face sex risk at US schools (Guardian)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Arrest In Seminary Sex Scandal


(AP) Prosecutors on Monday charged a 27-year-old Polish candidate for the priesthood with possession and distribution of child pornography, invoking a tough new federal law in a widening investigation into a vast cache of lurid images found at a seminary.

The student, whose name was not released, had downloaded "numerous" photographs from a Web site in his native Poland, state prosecutor Walter Nemec said in a statement. If tried and convicted, he faces up to two years in prison.

Authorities say some 40,000 photos and numerous videos, including child pornography, sadomasochistic sexual acts and pictures of trainee priests kissing and fondling each other and their older instructors, were found at the seminary in St. Poelten, 50 miles west of Vienna.

The discovery, and the subsequent furor in overwhelmingly Roman Catholic Austria, triggered the country's worst church sex scandal since a cardinal was forced to resign amid allegations of pedophilia in 1995
more
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/19/world/main630...



orininal thread for broken links
Sex scandal draws intense interest in Austria
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=694019
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. NOVAK -- Rumored Opus Dei are Scalia, Thomas, Hanssen, and Novak nt
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Louis Freeh
Is supposed to be one of them, too
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. He is, indeed -- I forgot! Interesting that both Freeh and Hanssen...
but why go there? Who can, or will, ever know?
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
28. Is that the one that Mel Gibson
and his father are part of or was that something else? I honestly don't remember.
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Kat45 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Yes, that's the one Mel Gibson's father is part of.
But I'm pretty sure Mel said he himself isn't.
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carpetbagger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. I thought Gibson's father was an Old Catholic
"Old Catholics" are people and churches who left the Roman Catholic Church because it was getting too liberal during Vatican II.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. No, he's far more than that. "Old Catholics" are like my Dad, not
intolerant and full of rage. "Old Catholics" love the ritual and beauty of the Latin Mass and the old teachings.

Opus Dei and the associated groups (training grounds) are full of intolerance, authoritarianism, mind control, and lust for power.
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carpetbagger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I agree with your point. What I was saying was he's not OD.
Gibson's offshoot is far more than just people trying to retain an older form of worship.

My point is that, having split from the main church, I wouldn't think that Old Catholics would be particularly welcome in Opus Dei.
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Juan Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
30. Several Opus members were in the former Spanish government
Thanks God they're all gone.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
46. Opus Dei was strongly supported by Pinochet in Chile and
Fujimori in Peru. And, of course Fracisco Franco in Spain.

Opus Dei particularly goes after the powerful people to convert them, it's how they are trying to get power. They are particularly interested in political and governmental leaders.

They are not interested in the "average Jane and Joe" or the poor people. Those people are of no use to them.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
31. That's one scary group
They tried to take over the girls school where I used to teach--a school run by liberal nuns, mind you. They like to work in secret, though, so the best thing is to shine the light on them. I know a lot of Catholics who weren't even sure it was a real group--but it is! They don't like women thinking for themselves, any form of birth control at all (even barrier methods), sex education of any kind, Vatican II, other forms of Christianity, or really anything from the last couple of centuries.

I really hope the next cardinal elevated to Pope doesn't listen to them.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
36. Opus Dei and Legion of Christ
Garry Wills takes them on, as well as the Passion.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17026

After being founded in Mexico, the Legion grew up not only before Vatican II but in the most conservative enclave of the pre–World War II church, Francisco Franco's Spain. In this, the Legion resembles its elder brother in orthodoxy, Opus Dei—it was an Opus priest who conducted Franco's annual spiritual retreat.<11> Both the Legion and Opus are not embarrassed about their past ties with Franco and his circle, or with the ideals formed there. Both groups revere their founders, who admired Franco—respectively Marcial Maciel Degollado and Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer. Escrivá was and Maciel is a very "preconciliar" man. Pope John Paul II has already canonized, on the fastest of imaginable fast tracks, Escrivá. Maciel is still alive at eighty-three, but his followers expect his canonization too. (His uncle has already been beatified by John Paul.)

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justjones Donating Member (596 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
40. Corporeal mortification.
I wonder if Scalia, Clarence Thomas, or any other of those who are suspected of being a follower/member of Opus Dei practice corporeal mortification.

Wonder if Scalia or Thomas are wearing cilices under their robes....

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justjones Donating Member (596 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Addendum: This is one of the most disturbing aspects of this "religion".
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
45. Ashcroft is Protestant, which is anathema to Opus Dei
Justice Thomas is also Opus Dei, he converted to Catholicism and was baptized by an Opus Dei priest.

Former FBI Director Louis Freeh was also Opus Dei.

Opus Dei is also part of the Vatican bureaucracy and it even counts one Cardinal among its members, Cardinal Cipriani of Peru.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
47. Classic!!!!..................for a power monger and total corruption!!!!
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-04 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
48. If those lunatics came around me, they wouldn't have to practice...
self-flagellation. I am MORE than willing to lend a helping hand.
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-04 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
49. Tom Monaghan of Domino's Pizza fame is one of them
"Follow the money." -- Deepthroat

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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-04 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
50. no thank god Ashcroft isnt
Its bad enough to have Scalia as a fellow Catholic but alas we got Kerry, and some other great dems in with us.
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