Are you crazy?

You say that you're the greatest country in human history and all that crap. How can you say such a thing? I heard Clinton say it yesterday as well on Larry King. I like Clinton alot, but that is just BS. Because of the nation's ability to correct it's mistakes?!? So many Americans feel that this is the truth, but it is not! There is a world outside the US you know, who also are democracies, and may I add much better democracies!

You don't even have universal healt care! How can you call yourself the greatest country in the world?! We've had it for decades already!

You have an insane murder statistic where no other country in the western world even come close! The greatest country even? I don't think so.

You treat poor people like crap, it doesn't seem that you've heard of sharing the common goods in a country. It makes me sick!

And what about your crap media?! So many are hailing the right of free speech and whatnot in the US, well, why don't the big media vent the real issues and problems with your country?!? It's ridiculous. It's something you only see in the dictatorships! The greatest country in human history? Give me a break.

There are richer, better, and more humane countries than the US, but it doesn't seem that the US politicians will accept that, I guess it would make them "unpatriotic" huh? ;)

Based on your rant, they're the ones who you have a beef with.

How can Clinton say such a thing! It just turns my stomach. He is a clever guy, yet he is so ignorant like that?! No wonder so many people hate you, it's just ridiculously ignorant and a grave insult to the poor people that suffer in your country because of failed politics including democrats!

That kind of posturing is part of domestic politics. What Clinton said is pretty much a private conversation among us -- and if people are going to hate us for what they hear listening at the keyhole, then we will just have to be enemies.

By the way, what country did you say you are from? Utopia?

Which makes me wonder...

Better than the USA, man that can't be possible, greatest ever. Bah.

so I can tell you what is wrong with it.

Utopia is Latin for noplace, you know.

is an imaginary unattainable dream society. I don't think I live in one, but you surely think you do.

n/t

where we have universal health care, where everyone gets scholarships and there's no tuition closing the door for the non-priveliged, where we don't shoot eachother like crazy and were even our state controlled media vent the imminent and important issues, where we tax the rich big-time because we understand that there are others who need those money more, oh, and guess what?! It doesn't mean our economy goes bust and everyone live in poverty because the rich aren't allowed to keep all of their ridiculous amounts of money. In fact poverty is as good as non-existant. It's total crap the way so many Americans think that the rich must keep their money because we all benefit from it in the end. I guess it's your crap media telling lies to the poor people again huh?

Norway is too far away for me to give a hoot today. This is U.S Democratic Undergoung and we have an election to process. Thats a really big deal.

at least our politicians don't go on telling that we're the greatest nation all the time either. Here in Europe we've learned our lesson with that self-centred nationalism. Looking down on people and nations always bring hatred towards you.

It's not as if Clinton said Norway and all other countries suck. The U.S. is a great place. That's why so many people want to emigrate here. But yes, we have a huge problem with our government right now. That doesn't take away everything else and make this place terrible. Seriously, grow up.

Specifically, it says that you proved the original poster's point.

If I lived in Norway, I'm pretty sure I'd laugh at your assumption.

like nominate George bu$h and Tony Blair for the Nobel Peace Prize. First it was Harald Nesvik (2002), then Jan Simonsen (2004) who got the "honor" to nominate the Destructive Duo for the Peace Prize in the Norwegian Parliament. Who'll get the "honor" next time around?

who got ejected from the right wing populist party here because he was unacceptable for them and he is now on the Norwegian Temptation Island! That says all about him. Fortunately, he has no credibility whatsoever. Over 150 different people and organisations are nominated for that prize, so there's bound to be some real misfits among there.

...about the self-delusional narcissism of Americans....

Hvordan står det til med deg? I miss being there, especially in Telemark! I wish I could talk to you more but I have to study before school. You're right about the crap media.

Welcome to DU :toast:

Until you get your goddamn whalers under control, you got no beef with us.

History will remember the extinct Norwegians (and Japanese) as the greedy egotists who ate up all the whales.

we have flaws, although that's not really the issue here. We can take that over in the international forum. :)

If you intervene in a family quarrel, you have to expect to get bruises from both sides.

Actually, I regard Norway as an admirable little country, if only you could get your head straight about whaling -- but then, nobody is perfect. Naturally, neither are we -- and if you stick around long enough to read widely on DU, I think you will find me as critical of this country as anybody.

One of my good friends is a West African immigrant, and a literary scholar. He puts it this way: like other big countries, the US usually behaves imperialistically. What is exceptional is that a substantial minority of Americans oppose this.

Shave their pits and legs? Just curious.

Whoever said there are no stupid questions was wrong.

ikke sant? It is easy to share* such vast wealth with a population of only 6 million, but what will happen when that resource runs out?


*Admittedly in the lower 48 states there doesn't seem to be any "oil wealth sharing program", although there is one in Alaska.

is that while you put those money in your corporation's pockets, we have a STATE that control the oil money and save most of them in our 150 billion dollar oil fund for future generations. Only a small portion of the oil income is being used today. But this isn't about Norway and our oil, it's about all rich industrialized democracies, it's about your claim about being the greatest nation in human history is simply ridiculously far-fetched and repeating that lie to yourself all the time is not helping one bit.

btw, do you have Norwegian blood or something?

My father's side has some Norwegian blood in it.

is that we Norwegians can be awfully smug about our accomplishments. It's the one thing I hate about this country. It is easier to make a better place to live if you have a small, homogenous population and several billion dollars worth of oil right by your shore.

I do understand your irritation over Americans claiming to be the greatest nation ever, which is quite patently not true, but the United States has a certain it about it, something special, that makes it very hard to disregard, even if it hadn't been so powerful. The foundation, the idea of the the United States, the ideals of the Founding Fathers, all of these make the US very compelling. I'm not explaining this well - after-work tiredness is messing with my head,

KitSileya
-trønder i Bergen-

It's good that you really do have a great deal to be smug about.

I have recently been reading the recent biography of John Adams, our second president, first vice president, and truly a "founding father." We were so lucky in the character of our founders -- and perhaps the US has deeper roots in the enlightenment than most other countries, having started in the 18th century. I do wish that we would live up to that heritage, though.

I think a lot of people also forget that, as a nation-state, the US is relatively young. We've really only been here for 200 years or so, while most European nations have had national identities (if not sovereign national status) for many hundred years.

Also, most people forget that, outside of the Sept 11 attacks, there has not been a war fought on American soil in almost 150 years. Outside of the wars against the Native Americans, The Civil War (1861-1865) was the last time we've ever had a large-scale war happen on American soil. Our soldiers have certainly experienced the hardships of war, but our civilians have been largely untouched by the bloodiest battles of the last two centuries.

IMHO, part of the reason Americans feel proud of our nation is because we started off as "the underdog". We struggled to gain our independence from a colonial power, and almost didn't survive our first half-century of existence. Our population is largely made up of people whose ancestors fled (or were forced out of) every decent country in the world, and who came here with next to nothing.

My own ancestors, for example, were tenant farmers on unproductive land in Bohemia, England, Scotland, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and even Norway. They came to this country because they were starving to death, and there was no room for them in Europe. They gave up everything to get here, and once they got here, they worked very very hard to just make a living, let alone become successful.

My story is very common in this country, and many others share it. My grandfather was the grandson of a poor immigrant family, who had to leave school at 14 to support his family during the Great Depression.

Although he never completed secondary school, my grandfather invented a device which revolutionized home building in the 1950s. His patent (which he owned for seven years, before it became public domain) allowed him to build a successful business, which allowed my mother to get a college education, which further allowed her, as a single mother, to provide for me as a child. My grandfather also paid for a generous private university education for myself, which has allowed me to travel, experience the world, and give back to my country and society.

America may or may not be the greatest country on earth. That really doesn't matter. A country is only as good as the people who live in it. We, in America, are fortunate that we have land which is fertile, and people who are smart and who can work hard. We may not always do the right thing, but I honestly think most people in this country mean well, and act as they see fit, given the knowledge they have.

Of course, we make mistakes, just like everybody else. I don't agree with our foreign policy. I also don't agree with our underfunding of our educational system, or the fact that we don't have universal health care. I also believe our military budget needs to be cut down to a proper size. I also think we have been rotten caretakers of our environment. But that's why I keep fighting, because I want this country to be the best it can be, for EVERYONE.

Thank you for taking the time to read this rant. I hope it makes a little sense. :D

Don't let Bush find out there's oil in Norway or whaling will suddenly turn into terrorism.

whereas the U.S. is a mega-giant. The U.S. is expected to help other countries with billions (trillions?) in aid, while also sending troops for humanitarian war-like efforts.

Norway is better off than most countries in the world, primarily because of its rich oil and gas resources. It is the third largest exporter in the world of oil/gas. It has arguably the best lifestyle for its citizens in the world, so not only the U.S., but virtually any other country would pale in comparison.

So it's not fair to single out the U.S. and compare it to Norway. Canada, France, the U.K., Belgium, Italy, Spain, and most other countries cannot compare in many ways to Norway.

Norway, being so tiny, has the luxury of being a welfare state that is not communistic. The U.S. actually spends more per capita on its citizens' health care than Norway does, but even so, it doesn't come close to providing universal health care. To provide universal health care here would be more of a burden than in Norway. (Partly because of the pharma industry, which gouges us....so that it can sell cheap drugs to countries like Norway.)

So give us a break. The U.S. has a lot of great qualities. It has faults, as well. Much like Norway has its good points and bad points. Do you have an immigration problem in Norway, with peoples around the world trying to immigrate there? We do. Because presumably America has a lot to offer.

But if we don't rein in Little Caesar, even Norway will feel it in a few years. This is not a good time for the US or the planet.

Carry around guns and shoot anyone we want to, then die of uncontrolled disease.

Those other Countries just "Hate us for our freedoms." I know this 'cause Great Leader has told me so, and he said God told him.

I recommend freerepublic.com, if you can last more than 2 minutes without getting banned.

If your criteria for a great nation is one that takes care of its citizens, obviously we are not the greatest country in the world. If your criteria is opportunity, diversity, and the shear potential we have than I say yes, we are a great country. Great does not mean perfect.

As far as Clinton is concerned, the man is an eternal optimist. Only someone who loves his country devotedly would have put up with the shit he put up with for years and years from the racist right-wing idiots with money in this country.

I believe in my country and many of its people. I'm sorry you don't. But just remember, without the Americans, you would be conversing in German right now.

and of course there are many good people in the USA, but the ignorance really pisses me off that's all, and it catches up on you guys.

And I would presume someone would drag WW2 into this...It was the Soviets who beat the Germans, saying anything else is ignorance. We are allies but it burns inside me to see our ally so arrogant and ignorant.

...your complaints are largely products of extreme capitalism and materialism. The US wasn't always like this, and hopefully won't always be like this.

Who'd have thunk fascism could get such a foothold here?


You're right about many of the things you say, my point is, though that it's easy to sit off from afar and criticize. Many of us are doing what we can to turn things around.

Hopefully people like you will get your country in the right direction. Here, someone like Nader or Kucinich would've won the election, so there's still some work for you guys to do! :)

...I'm saying, don't think your country is immune. I've heard people muse my entire life over how the Germans could have let fascism gain a foothold. Now I know.

whose main base is conservative right-wing christians, racists and ignorant people who think taxation is stealing, but who really doesn't have a clue. The party is only 30 years old, the youngest in our parliament, and sometimes gets 20% approval ratings in the polls. Scary, but as all other parties hate them, they are pretty doomed to be hold out of any serious executive power.

...I think 9/11 sent many Americans right over the top. It doesn't take much.

Well good luck to you. I'm sure many people on DU will enjoy hearing your point of view.

How many parties in parliament? How are members chosen? Is it easy to form a new party?

Do you have a constitution? If so, and your parliament passes a law that might be "unconstitutional" is there a procedure to challenge it? How does your judical system work?

Does Norway have smaller political sub-units, similar to our states? If so, how much independence do they have from the national government?

What are political campaigns like in Norway? Are they typically dirty and dishonest?

Just curious...

<snip>
It was the Soviets who beat the Germans, saying anything else is ignorance. We are allies but it burns inside me to see our ally so arrogant and ignorant.
<snip>

Guess I better let my brother know those were Soviets who landed on Omaha Beach with him during the Normandy Invasion. And here he was thinking all these years it was other Americans who were landing there with him...chalk it up to some more of that "American ignorance", huh? Speaking of WWII, could you fill me in on the origins of the term "quisling"?

England, The Soviet Union and the U.S. all had a large part in fighting the germans, to say anything else is ignorance. Also the U.S. fought Japan with little help.

We're taught this line from the day we enter school, if not long before. And Americans are notoriously out of touch with the rest of the world, so we don't get a lot to compare to. This has in fact been discussed a lot here at DU, despite the reactions you are getting. I think the reactions are because your post is so confrontational. My grandmother always said that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Another thing that you will find is that people here are cautious of new posters because we have repeatedly been invaded by freepers. Some of them post in an effort to acquire what they see as damning, unpatriotic responses for their freeper friends enjoyment.

Welcome to DU.
-----------------------------

Your english is very good. How long ago did you learn it? Have you lived in english speaking countries? I am always impressed by how many languages many europeans speak.

but it was closed within seconds, although I did get 10 replies (mostly that I was a commie, haha!).

I felt like I just had to say this and it became maybe too direct for some. However I become so angry when that "greatest country ever" clichè is being said all the time, when it clearly ain't right. You have the strongest military ever, but for me that doesn't mean greatness.

Thank you for the kind words about my english. We learn english in school from an early age, and we're being pumped full of american media here as well, so it's just something you pick up here. ;)

is either a commie or a terrorist. The difference to them depends on whether you have brown skin or not.

...and we're being pumped full of american media here as well, so it's just something you pick up here.

What American media? Do tell, which one did you learn English from?

Your posts sound like flamebait.

We even had Fox News here for a brief period of time, but it wasn't popular, haha! Everything American on TV (and there is alot, believe me!) here is only subtitled in Norwegian so we learn English quite rapidly that way.

Why should I lie about this?

Just curious. BTW, I didn't say you lied, I said I found it hard to believe. There is a difference.

I know him, and it's a shame he has Norwegian blood. But I can guarantee you that his views would get thumbs down from 95% of the Norwegian people. If you go here you can find out what we think about Bush. It's in english as well. http://www.tellhim.no

most Europeans know much more about the US than we often know about ourselves

all of this can come as a major shock to Americans who spend any time in Europe

why would it be hard to beleive that people in other nations (who are obviously interested in politics by dint of being here) would know who Rove is??

I don't know many Australians who don't - admittedly most of my friends are politics junkies - people outside the US do tend to be a little better versed in the goings on of other nations than most US citizens. It doesn't mean Americans are stupid or evil but they are a little insular - take a look at the proportion of Americans that have ever been overseas for example.

No-one is saying that Americans shouldn't say the US is A great country it's the "greatest" bit people dispute

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

with some of your sentiments, however try to understand why some of us here at DU can get a little defensive at times.

There are a lot of us here who HATE what is going on in this country and are trying our best to resist, reform and create change. Many of us want this administration out of office more than most who are observing the situation from afar. The situation is much more complicated than many Europeans realize.

I have friends in Ireland, England and France that I am always debating with and what really gets to me is when they lump us all together..."You Americans, blah, blah, blah..." knowing full well that I and most people I know are vehemently against what our current government represents. Not only that, but many of them would move here in a second if they could (some of them have already lived here, but had to go back for reasons that were not of their choosing.)

Is it fair to blame ALL Germans for the Holocaust?, ALL the French for Vichy or Algeria?, All the English for the atrocites they have committed in the name of the British Empire?, All the Irish for the IRA? I could go on, but I think you see what the issue is for us.

Most European nations have gone through their eras of brutal conquest and empire, even the Scandinavians (Vikings, Normans, etc.) It seems that many European nations have learned something from this and have matured to some extent. Some have not. The United States is a young country comprised mainly (not all) of Europeans and their descendants, although this is changing with the influx of immigrants from Latin countries, Asia, Africa, etc.

I see us as a young, cocky teenager compared (200+ years) to the older coutries and governments of Europe. We have not learned our lesson yet with regard to the perils of Empire and domination. But we need to and fast. Becuase given our capacity for nuclear destruction the stakes are too high - the entire planet is at risk. That is my humble take on it anyway, for what it's worth.

Maybe we are passing through our own "Viking age" Remember one thing--this country is the result of huge immigrations over centuries--from Europe mostly, and now from other places in the southern hemisphere. I don't think Norway has been that open to all and every person but I could be wrong.

Your history is also full of violence and barbarism in it's young age.

Honestly, I don't know how we can grow up and which direction this "grand experiment" will take. I am not a historian and know nothing of the condition of Norway when it was only three hundred years old.

We are young, and we have managed to become extremely wealthy. By all indicators, it is possible we may go the way of all empire seeking societies unless we change and that can come about in many different ways. --when Norway was about three hundred years old, what conditions prevailed?

George W. Bush is a fine example of US arrogance. Of course false pride is a useful nationalistic tool.

They are some shifty shitkickers, lemme tellya!

Did you see that south park episode?

what was it about?

It's a shame my fellow Norwegians jumped on the bandwagon as well when they arrived there. Hopefully they are at least a bit more sensible than the common American.

...wasn't specifically about Norwegian immigrants. Actually the people taking the jobs were aliens from the future or something.

The punch line was all of these rednecks whining, "They took our jobs!" But everytime they repeated it, their speech got more and more distorted until it sounded like ......"Bah OOK umm ooob!"

or something.

Did you see my other post to you?

Welcome!

that glorifies eatting codfish soaked in lye isn't worth giving the time of day.
:evilgrin:

LOL...Minneapolis here, may as well be in Oslo.
Jeff

else who have tasted that ridiculous "food". :) Can you buy it over there?

DON'T DO THAT!

I am the great-great-grandson of not only Norwegian, but Swedish and Danish immigrants too!!!!

And yes, for some ungodly reason, my grandparents would have Lutefisk at Christmas.

And it is one of the most vile things ever created. And I've (accidentally) eaten haggis before, too.

FEAR THE 'FISK...

Oh for gods sake. It's fast food here. :crazy:

:evilgrin:

Some folks are jabbing "norway" out of defensiveness, as the post
pokes at an emotion of patriotism that all americans feel, left and
right. Clinton is a salesman, a very popular democratic salesman,
and this is an election time.

Expect salespeople to talk something up. It is not a crime, rather
expected.

There is no point in comparing the nation states, as the historical
conditions and populations are not even remotely similar.

I agree with your point binderson. YOU should remember that there
is a liberal population in america several times larger than your
whole country.

Also, you have not spent enough time in america to realize that the
media blackout of truth is TOTAL... and very few americans take the
effort to break through this blackout... these people might be the
very persons you're speaking with on DU.

Treat us nicely, as liberalism is without borders and we are all
family. Welcome to DU. I'm glad you've gotten THAT off your chest,
and look forward to your more diplomatic work. ;-)

We're not all pod people here in America, but there are a few:

you will see that most of us hate the crap media with a passion and are hungry to learn about other countries. We have to go out of our way to find information in this country about anything outside our borders, but many of us try.

And right now, we are a little sensitive on the topic of Clinton, since he is undergoing a heart operation this morning. He was just saying what politicians say, I always wonder when they say that too. No country can say they are the greatest. Most liberals understand the difference between patriotism and nationalism.

them ACCURATELY.

The sums presented diminish the whole, substantially.

We have the potential to BE great... but right now, we really aren't. We're just a shadow.

Many Americans are confused. They wrongly think that because America is the wealthiest country on Earth that, de facto, it is the greatest. What most of these people either fail to recognize or choose to immorally ignore is that that wealth comes from somewhere. Namely, that wealth comes at the expense of most of the rest of the nations of this world. Through corrupt agencies and organizations (NAFTA, WTO, the World Bank), militaristic strangleholds on the world (NATO, UN) et. al. the good ole USA is able to dictate the agenda to the rest.

Not to say Europe is without its demons. The EU is getting to be a beast we'll all have to deal with someday soon.

Most of these people that tout the USA as being Number One have never been outside our borders, nor even hold a passport. Most of these people should be learning to speak Spanish, because, slowly but surely America is becoming Numero Uno!

America moved to number 2 with the recent EU enlargement, with now
450,000,000 people and the world's largest economy.

I love the weird phsychology of being proud to be a macdonalds worker
in the richest economy, that somewhere else, lives the person who
owns everything... and somehow there is a vicarious credit taken
that "we" are a rich nation. The propaganda is indeed excellent.

Its too bad that the average wealth calculation does not throw out
the top and bottom 1%... then we'd see some honest assessment.

is the same as with any bloated bureaucracy. Too many people with their hands in the cookiejar. The EU would be an achievement if it were comprised of a few, or even a handful, of nations. But the EU will soon be more than 25 nations weak, all ultimatley with contradictory interests pulling in distinct directions, with the nations having the fatest economies dictating to the little fish.

And don't think the USA doesn't have it's own dog in the race.

The EU is an American concept at the core. It is crony capitalism. It is Rockefeller's idea reincarnated.

I'm glad Norway ain't a part of the EU even if they are trying to drag us in. We stand strong! :)

The EU is what the american federal would be like were the civil
war never fought. I mean it, that the civil war, created a union
and a precedent that the federal could overrule states rights to the
point, where states were truly reduced to territory status, and not
in any way soverign over their own choices... look at how today the
supreme court glibly overrides states rights, like in florida 2000.

For all the red tape, i've found the EU to provide better standards
of living than the US.. rockefeller project or not.

Yes, crony capitalism and all the downsides, as the world is indeed
shades of grey and no places is perfect... just the concept of many
nations cooperating in an economic area, strikes me as wiser than
1 nation and 50 powerless states.

We'll see in the long run, but by the diverity of governance and
culture in the EU, it's hetergenaety (sp), helps it sustain over
the long term, even with whackos in government in some states
(e.g. berlusconi's italy). It reduces the problem of a "fratboy"
screwing over an entire continent, to only screwing over 1 state..
and yet still, many states work together in their common interest
of security and western liberalism.

For all the criticism, i think it is great, the EU. The common
currency, is something i'm not quite so sure about, as, like you say,
it further embeds the "one size fits all" concept of economics that
has cheated the poorer US states out of the macroeconomic option of
devaluing their currency in order to stimulate growth.

from a recent New York Times --

productivity per hour is higher in France.

We have higher productivity per person only because we work longer hours.

How smart and economically savvy does that make us?

and we love our pretty little lie.

http://www.cybercollege.com/letter37.htm

http://cthealth.server101.com/united_states_spends_most_on_health,_but_france_no__1_in_treatment.htm

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html
(you'll have to count up from the bottom on this one to be comparable to the other scores.)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2129rank.html

----------
In all fairness, our total GDP is #1 for the world (2003 figures), but our individual GDP only #2, and #3 close on our heels is....Norway!
(if of course, you consider GDP a measure of a countries greatness)

many generations at this point. A lot of my anger is that we have such a potentially wonderful country, and because the hard-core nationalist types insist on spouting their #1 propaganda, we don't do the work to make our country as good as it could be.

all the time?! Why is it always so important for you? So many Americans sound like there ain't any other world or democracies in the world! I think you become another species of human when you stay too long in the US. ;)

will call you a treasonous "commie" LOL, if you don't constantly spout the we're #1 line.

But also I do feel a good bit of connection, not so much to the country in the terms of it's government and institutions, but to the actual land and family history.

You also have to expect a certain amount of devotion to country on this board, because we are a political board. We here care enough about the US, despite it's many faults, to want to make it a better place. If we didn't care this much, many of us would likely have abandoned the US by now.

crap. Like people are rooting for a sports team or something, it's just a bunch of macho bullshit.

It's fine to think we are one of the greatest countries in the world, but I don't understand why so many Americans have to constantly proclaim it. I think it might have something to do with a personal insecurity and if one can claim to be a part of "The greatest country in the world" they can somehow feel better about their own personal failures.

I have lived in Europe and really loved my experience there. I would like to live there again someday. I live in New York now and I love my city, but I am disappointed in my country. One of the advantages to having spent time in both countries is that you see that there are things you both like and dislike about both the United States and Europe. Many people have a black and white way of looking at the world, and take a "we are all good, they are all bad" or vice versa. I think this is mainly born of ignorance and fear.

If you ask me, that is the #1 problem in the world today, the demonization of what we don't understand and the desire to eradicate it. It's not just a phenomenon here in the US, it exists everywhere, even in Europe and nowhere is this kind of thing more evident than in the Middle East.
'

the US is largely an immigrant nation...there was great pressure to make sure everyone was loyal to US and not to their country of origin

in 62 I was in Germany and heard from many young people that they didn't understand how all those immigrants were so US patriotic...they just didn't understand how a citizen in the US could feel the same national loyalty that Europeans did

I found this attitude pretty incomprehensible, since the US was still under the influence of the jingoistic McCarthy era, which was very similar in many ways to today under W

Not all of us. I am crazy. But not enough to claim the US is the shit. Nevertheless, it's home.

We owe the media in Norway a big "Thank You" for pointing out the abuse at Abu Ghraib when our own media looked the other way. Your insight is appreciated. Most on this board are here because we want a better country, so you preach to the choir my friend.

Where did you learn the word "ain't"?

and even allowing for a lot of tv watching, they are all used in context. How much tv do norwegians watch??? Does the internet and TV spread our culture this pervasively around the world?

Telly, internet, movies, it all adds up. I don't like it, but it's the way it goes it seems.

when you are speaking/writing English? I'm one of those americans that seems completely unable to learn to speak other languages (although I did try) and the ability to not only speak, but speak fluently in another language seems near miraculous to me. I have to admit to a good bit of envy.

I can definitely understand it would be hard to learn another language when you are a native American. You don't get much impulses from other languages, apart from maybe Spanish if you live in that sort of neighborhood...

from first/second to 11th grade. It is the first foreign language Norwegians learn. As Bindersen mentioned earlier in this thread, Norway doesn't dub movies, tv-series etc, (except entertainment aimed at children) instead using subtitles. This is an enormous help for language learners, because when it comes to picking up the nuances and the melody of languages, hearing native speakers is of incalculable value. I teach English in a Norwegian high school, mostly K13 (which corresponds to the freshman year in college in the US.)

KitSileya

Forcing our language on everyone else.

In America Spanish is fast rivaling English for the top spot as our preferred lexicon.

And many are pitching hissy fits.

I would say that English is a very good first language to learn if your mother tongue is from the Germanic or Romance language families. English itself belongs to the Germanic family, but it has been heavily influenced by French and Latin. One of the few very complicated aspects of English is primarily spelling and secondarily pronunciation.

That it is spoken by so many people scattered across the globe, either as native speakers, or as second language speakers, make it an excellent tool of comunication. The reason why so many speak it might be offensive (tho' primarily the English/British are to blame, not Americans) but that doesn't detract from its usefulness.

KitSileya
-who also teaches Italian, Norwegian, Linguistics, and Religion&Ethics-

because as a failed foreign language learner, I am still able to converse with many people from around the world. It disturbs me more that our culture (especially some of the really negative parts) is becoming so pervasive.

I'm a musician that fell in love with linguistics and other languages (besides music). Since I attained fluency in Portuguese (lived in Brasil last year), after years of Spanish (lived in Costa Rica, Spain and Cataluña), German (studied in Austria), some ecclesiastical Latin from doing transcriptions of Medaeval and Renaissance music, (lived in Norway too but it's really beyond me), I find that I cannot spell in English as well as before. It's great being able to read Catalan, Italian and French without having studied these languages, but what's up with the difficulty in my native language? Since I have to wait another semester for the linguistics grad course I want to take, I'm left with so many questions about certain phenomena associated with polyglots. :shrug:

Ser deg senere! :hi:

That's quite a number of languages. My french teacher in high school did say that after the first 6 languages, language learning becomes really easy, but I haven't had a chance to test that. I am studying Nordic language and literature right now - I am bilingual, English and Norwegian, but I've always felt more 'at home' in English. Even tho' I live in Norway, I tend to shy away from reading Norwegian books and newspapers. So I decided to take the bull by the horns and actually study Nordic - this does include some Swedish and Danish, but the three Scandinavian languages are considered one by linguists, since they are mutually understandable.

I do not know why you're suddenly having difficulties with English, but I do know that learning other languages is supposed to help you with your mother tongue. it's the old saying, if you only know one language, you don't know any, because you need to have comparative material in order to become aware of your own language. I tend to use that metaphor in cultural exchanges as well, if you don't know something about another culture, you will never become aware of how your own culture functions.

KitSileya

After learning Spanish, I did become better at English grammar. Studying German helped too, aber ist sehr schlect jetzt! I never could get the hang of Norwegian because I didn't try and everyone spoke English so well (grammatically better than many Americans). I watched a Dreyer movie last night and I found I could hear cognates between Danish and English and German, but of course I needed subtitles.

My problem has to do with spelling, not grammar. I want to write out things phonetically, like pure Spanish vowels, and it may have to do with living in an area (New Orleans) where people speak creole English. We have a lot of funny accents here, which poses no problem for me when speaking. I was once a great speller, before I learned any other languages... I need English therapy... in Norway. ;-)

I miss Norway :cry:

For I miss the US. Especially now, when I could actually do some good by volunteering in the campaigns, it's hard to be stuck here in Norway. Oh, to be in Oregon again....

KitSileya

"Does the internet and TV spread our culture this pervasively around the world?"

Yes, yes it does, if I didn't say so I doubt many people here would guess I wasn't a US citizen as a result of my language.

1st for

* Agriculture - Banana imports
* Agriculture - Cotton exports
* Agriculture - Grains - Coarse grain consumption (per capita)
* Agriculture - Grains - Coarse grain production (per capita)
* Agriculture - Grains - Coarse grain stocks (per capita)
* Agriculture - Grains - Corn consumption (per capita)
* Agriculture - Grains - Corn production (per capita)
* Agriculture - Grains - Corn stocks (per capita)
* Agriculture - Grains - Oats imports (per capita)
* Agriculture - Grains - Sorghum exports (per capita)
* Crime - Adults prosecuted
* Crime - Adults prosecuted (per capita)
* Crime - Assaults
* Crime - Burglaries
* Crime - Car thefts
* Crime - Females prosecuted
* Crime - Females prosecuted (per capita)
* Crime - Prisoners
* Crime - Prisoners (per capita)
* Crime - Rapes
* Crime - Total crimes
* Democracy - Presidential elections - Total vote
* Democracy - Presidential elections - Voter registration
* Democracy - Presidential elections - Voting age population
* Economy - Budget (expenditures)
* Economy - Budget (revenues)
* Economy - Debt - external
* Economy - Economic importance
* Economy - Exports
* Economy - Foreign investment
* Economy - Foreign investment (share)
* Economy - GDP
* Economy - GDP (PPP)
* Economy - GDP in 1970
* Economy - GDP per capita in 1950
* Economy - Gross National Income
* Economy - Imports
* Economy - Infrastructure
* Economy - Innovation
* Education - Average years of schooling of adults
* Education - Literacy - Adults with at least moderate literacy (female)
* Education - Teacher qualifications - Share with degree (age 9)
* Education - Tertiary enrolment
* Energy - Electricity - consumption
* Energy - Electricity - production
* Energy - Hydroelectricity consumption in 1965
* Energy - Natural gas consumption
* Energy - Nuclear electricity generation
* Energy - Nuclear energy consumption
* Energy - Nuclear reactors operable
* Energy - Nuclear reactors operable (MWe)
* Energy - Nuclear reactors uranium required
* Energy - Oil consumption
* Energy - Oil imports {net}
* Environment - CO2 Emissions
* Environment - Pollution - Carbon dioxide 1999
* Environment - Pollution - Carbon Dioxide from fossil fuels 2000
* Environment - Pollution - Carbon Dioxide from fossil fuels 2000 (per capita)
* Environment - Pollution - Carbon Dioxide per capita
* Environment - Pollution - Municipal Waste per capita
* Environment - Pollution - Nuclear waste
* Environment - Threatened species
* Food - McDonalds restaurants
* Food - McDonalds restaurants (per capita)
* Health - Child maltreatment deaths
* Health - Health care funding (private per capita)
* Health - Health care funding (total per capita)
* Health - Plastic surgery procedures
* Health - Red Cross donations
* Health - Spending (per person)
* Health - Teen birth rate
* Health - Teenage pregnancy
* Health - Teenage pregnancy (per capita)
* Health - Teenage pregnancy (share)
* Immigration - New citizenships
* Industry - Light commercial vehicle production
* Internet - Hosts
* Internet - Internet Service Providers (ISPs)
* Internet - Linux web servers
* Internet - Livejournal users
* Internet - Users
* Labor - Female decision makers
* Language - English speakers
* Media - Cinemas
* Media - Films produced
* Media - Personal computers
* Media - Radios
* Media - Telephones - main lines in use
* Media - Telephones - mobile cellular
* Military - Air force personnel
* Military - Conventional arms exports
* Military - Expenditures - dollar figure
* Military - Exports to developing nations
* Military - Navy personnel
* Military - Weapon holdings
* Military - WMD - Biological (per $ GDP)
* Military - WMD - Biological (per capita)
* Military - WMD - Chemical (per $ GDP)
* Military - WMD - Chemical (per capita)
* Military - WMD - Missile (per $ GDP)
* Military - WMD - Missile (per capita)
* Military - WMD - Nuclear (per $ GDP)
* Military - WMD - Nuclear (per capita)
* Military - WMD - Overview (per $ GDP)
* Military - WMD - Overview (per capita)
* People - Divorce rate
* People - Marriage rate
* People - Nobel prize laureates
* People - One person households
* People - Teenage birth rate
* Religion - Catholic - Permanent Deacons
* Religion - Jehovahs Witnesses
* Religion - Jews
* Sports - Olympic medals - Bronze (Sydney 2000)
* Sports - Olympic medals - Gold (Sydney 2000)
* Sports - Olympic medals - Total (Sydney 2000)
* Sports - Olympic point totals {Sydney 2000}
* Sports - Summer olympic medals {all time}
* Transportation - Aircraft departures
* Transportation - Airports
* Transportation - Airports - with paved runways (1,524 to 2,437 m)
* Transportation - Airports - with paved runways (2,438 to 3,047 m)
* Transportation - Airports - with paved runways (914 to 1,523 m)
* Transportation - Airports - with paved runways (over 3,047 m)
* Transportation - Airports - with paved runways (total)
* Transportation - Airports - with paved runways (under 914 m)
* Transportation - Airports - with unpaved runways (914 to 1,523 m)
* Transportation - Airports - with unpaved runways (total)
* Transportation - Airports - with unpaved runways (under 914 m)
* Transportation - Highways (paved)
* Transportation - Highways (total)
* Transportation - Highways (unpaved)
* Transportation - Motor vehicles
* Transportation - Railways (standard gauge)
* Transportation - Railways (total)

1st for

* Crime - Drug offences
* Economy - Human Development Index
* Economy - Population under $11 a day (per capita)
* Education - Grade 12 advanced students science
* Education - School life expectancy (female)
* Education - School life expectancy (total)
* Education spending per secondary school student (per $ GDP)
* Energy - Electric generation ability (per capita)
* Energy - Hydroelectricity consumption (per capita)
* Energy - Hydroelectricity consumption in 1965 (per capita)
* Health - Transplants - Kidney (per capita)
* Media - Newspaper circulation (per capita)
* People - Gender development
* People - Gender empowerment
* Sports - Olympic point totals {Salt Lake City 2002} (per capita)
* Sports - Winter olympic medals {all time}


http://www.nationmaster.com/country/no/Top-Rankings


The US has LOTS more:

:) (OK they are not all good :eyes: )

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

n/t

:D

I vote for America as the greatest country in the world.

The US is the greatest country in the world -- for me, because I'm American. What's wrong with that? If a Norwegian doesn't feel the same way about Norway, that's sad, to me.

At the same time, the US could be so much greater, if we weren't overrun by the profit-obsessed, ignorant right wing, it drives me, yes, at least a little crazy.

his heart attack?

this is a fact. We are shallow, meddling, violent and ignorant. I think that Americans are speeding up the devolving process for the whole world.

The sad thing of it is that America, with all it's wealth and diverse human resources, could be the greatest nation in the world. It will never be as long as large corporations are calling the shots and that could be forever.

Julie

Fact is, we COULD be ONE of the greatest countries ever, if we actually walked our talk.

Sad how far we really are from our ideals. One great thing about this place, though, is the willingness to work towards those ideals (even if many on our side get sidetracked and seduced by government and corporate lies).

Hope you don't get too toasted from all the flames...!

We're #1, We're #1, the less time we spend on either maintaining and saving that which is good about our country, or on fixing what isn't.

It's the old "love it or leave it - my country right or wrong" reasoning from the Vietnam war era.

Because, as you said, you're so busy chanting "USA! USA! USA!" that you forget about those in power who don't believe in freedom - like corporations, the government, the rich and greedy who pretend to help you but have some really questionable ties (Google George Soros, James Baker and Rose Revolution to see what I mean).

gays rights in this country. We should be allowed the same rights as every one else and stop the oppression.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I'm a lesbian and yes the negativity I have faced in my life has sometimes been unbearable. It's not easy when people are against you.I came to DU because a friend told me about it and it's an election year and I'm a Democrat. I want Kerry in office and think BUSH needs to go. Do you have any other questions for me?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

make it out of Duke. Fricken sue me. You guys are sooooooooooo paraniod.

Why?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Ever since the RNC, we've had to be suspicious of people with low post counts claiming to be one of us.

Some alarm bells went off in my head, but I guess they were unfounded, so that's my honest mistake.

Truly sorry, I_Hug_Trees, for the false accusation. Welcome to DU.

Edit: Oh wait, maybe not...

why do you think gays aren't discriminated against? do you have to be gay to care about equality?

does the fact that your post count is higher than i-hug-trees mean it's OK to make troll accusations - mine's much higher than yours, would it be fair to make the same assumption about you?

has allowed gays to serve openly in the military since 1973, has gay partnership, and an openly gay conservative Finance Minister. Not to say that everything is rosy red for gays in Norway, they're not allowed to adopt, for example, or to be married in church, (Norway's state church is Lutheran-Evangelical Protestant) but still...

One of my professors in college used to joke, this was in 1998, that there were three countries in the world, besides the Vatican, with clerics as their head of government, Haiti, Iran, and Norway.

KitSileya

However, there are not richer countries than the USA

but you might be right. I'm glad you see my point though.

standard formulas don't really exist.

National property, which in theory belongs to everybody needs to be counted. Clearly the USA leads the world in the amount of stuff the government owns, followed I would guess by Russia.

Per Capita income in meaningful, as is rate of taxation on that income.

Natural exploitable resources come into play - and classifying those gets tricky...nobody minds drilling for oil in a desert waste, but cutting down trees in a national park quickly sparks revulsion.

The US for instance has trees to waste (for a while) while Norway does not due to soil problems and a lack of square miles if nothing else.

Does that make the US wealthier? - I think it depends on who you ask.

way of measuring how rich a country is. The Economist is a highly credible source, but sources vary. But I wouldn't say that no one is richer than the US. I think that's wrong. However in total GDP the US is a class in it's own of course, Japan being the closest, not even half of the US.

But you get my point. "greatest country in human history" talking like there is no other democracy in the world is just ridiculous IMO.

Is a pretty bad measure when more than 15% of your population's children go to bed hungry....

I think that reinforces your point (which is one I agree with)

but I have to say, Norway is awesome! I saw NO poor people, but maybe there are a few. It seemed as though everyone was sheltered, fed, and generally healthy. I wish Americans knew how wonderful Norway really is, especially Telemark... though I never spent a Winter there. I froze my ass off at night in the Summer! I guess I'm used to the hot, humid Louisiana swamp.

Sorry to hear about the theft of the Edvard Munch paintings. :cry:

Ser deg senere :hi:

especially when it is concentrated.

The Dutch Jews control the entire world's supply of diamonds - but that makes neither the Netherlands or Israel wealthy, and it protects them even less in th event of some global unexpected event...

What is "Material Wealth"?

And that's what keeps us going.

Not all of us require fairy tales to get through the day.

I would say ranking counties all depends on whats important to you. You harp about universal health care and rage against the rich. Not everyone agrees with you that such things are good. Universal health care if not done properly in this country could be tragic for this country if not the world. I do not believe as you say that the rich should keep their money because it benefits everyone, I believe they should keep it because many of them worked hard to earn it and took the chances in life to have it. Just because your a poor mofo that didn't doesn't mean they should give you their money.

Gun deaths in this country are too bad but there are many factors for this. Why does norway have twice as many gun deaths than Sweden?

Everyone complains against the media in this country but we have near perfect freedom of the press and unless you are hiding in your basement you can find sources for everything.

Compareing the US and Norway is rediculus to begin with. 300 million people from multiple ethic groups does not compare to 4.5 million.

Only England and Rome come close to the U.S.A. as far as changing the world. Look at the major innovations and technologies in the world over the last 200 years and tell yourself what percentage come from the U.S.

The U.S. has lower taxes than many other industialize nations, an idea you hate but I love. I wish they were lower. This Country with exceptions is a Capitalist country and after the cold war socialism is not thought of to highly of by many. I'll take Capitalism anyday of the week.

The U.S. has one of the most innovative forms of checks and balance governments in the world. We have one of the oldest and best Constitutions and declaration of rights of any county. Few Governments have lasted as long with so little challenge or change.

No other county in the world right now has the influence of the U.S. The world still revolves around the U.S. Dollar and economy. I'm not saying other countries don't have influence.

The U.S. has the strongest Military in the World right now. You might not like this idea but I do. Everytime in the history of this country when we have drastically cut the size of the military we have come to reget it. For example after the revolution or before both World Wars. the U.S. was vital in balancing Stalins Soviet Union during the cold war and infact Norway would not be a country if not in part due to the U.S. military. The world can thank it's lucky stars that we are not imperialistic or we could rule over half the world. Our military usually makes us the largest part of any international military interdiction.

The U.S. I a large country with every type of climate you could like and an infitely diverse population. It has more beautiful scenery than many counties and great natual resources.

Sorry this was so long, I could go on more, but I wanted to point out some reasons why someone might think that. It's great you love you country and you should but don't be surprised whey Americans love theirs, as I do.

Peace everyone.

Of course, to US, America is the greatest country going... as yours is with you. I admit the sadness and shame of what we allowed to purchase our White House and how Bush has shamed us ALL... so it is difficult to say much right now... we are TRYING to rectify that... by impeaching the demon (Bush) and getting him OUT of his warmongering post...
Bear with us... when he is gone, we will be great(er) again...

almost like "anti-American".

Greatest country in what sense? The greatest government? The kindest people? The most fertile land? The greatest music? The greatest food? The greatest cars?

Some things have one obvious aspect, and therefore "greatest" can be applied to them meaningfully without additional specification. I can call a book "the greatest book" and that means that its contents are great - well-written, sophisticated, thoughtful, interesting, etc. But countries, being as complex as they are, have no such obvious aspect. Countries are in essence groups of things together within borders, and in an era of globalization and foreign policy even that concept is vague. They have governments, people, culture, territory, etc., all of which are somewhat independent of each other and, in terms of "greatness", can be considered independently of each other.

So Clinton's statement that the US is the greatest country in the world isn't wrong. It's just extremely vague and basically meaningless.

My Family came here from Sweden & Norway a little over 100 yrs. ago.
If GWB wins in November, I'd like to come home. I look good in sweaters.
My wife is Danish will that be a problem? We sunburn easy and are looking to move father north anyway. It sounds nice there. Are Caribou a Problem?

The US has very Liberal Imigration Laws. Our families were all from someplace else at one time. They left for a reason. It's very difficult to go back.

Our country has Ideals as diverse as it's people. It's very difficult, if not imposible to agree on policy. Other countries have the luxury of being united by Nationalism. We have so many "Groupings" of people. It gives me a headache just thinking of a list. After 9/11 we were all Americans for once
and in less than four years we're Liberals and Conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, Soccer Moms and NASCAR Dads.

Will it take another attack for us to have a sense of Nationalism? We have to come together to make good things happen.

A trip to Norway would be fun but, I kinda like it here. And most of the people are nice.