A few gun questions.

I'm no expert on firearms, so I have a few questions for those here who are experts on both guns themselves and gun control issues.

1.) What does the AWB REALLY do and why should I care?
2.) Is it a good thing or a bad thing both politically and for safety's sake to attempt to renew it?
3.) What is this gun show loophole I've been hearing about and why should I care?

Thanks a ton.

...they'll be happy to help you out. I'd repost this down there.

you see, the ban is evil. very, very evil. you'll be told so by many reliable sources.

(sarcasm off)

...how's that effort coming, BTW? Find many skulking Freepers hiding underneath your keyboard yet?...<snicker>...

in the "democratic gun owners show off your guns" thread. you oughtta check it out. apparently we're not supposed to use their SN's, but search the profiles and see the abdundance of tombstones.

enjoy calling me a newbie, because it sounds like an insult a 7th grader would dish out.

(snicker)

or are you content with snickering?

...and the mods were almost certainly right: I trust their judgment.

And?...

that was my response to how the 'troll hunt' is going. im not on a troll hunt, but i also dont shed tears when they're exposed.

"If the existing assault weapons ban expires, I personally do not believe it will make one whit of difference one way or another in terms of our objective, which is reducing death and injury and getting a particularly lethal class of firearms off the streets. So if it doesn't pass, it doesn't pass."

- Tom Diaz of the VPC on NPR, March 11, 2004

If the ban is re-enacted you shouldn't have to worry.

There was a loophole that allowed convertable weapons to be sold at gun shows.

The ban is definitely a good thing. You should care if Bush does nothing and the ban lapses, because people will start buying semi-automatic assault style weapons in large numbers. That means more will find their way onto our streets and be used to commit crimes.

Also the old scam was to sell semi-auto assault weapons that were readily convertable to full auto with a simple kit you could order in the mail.

He said he'd back it and he's not, just like Yucca Mtn., protecting social security, etc. That's the main thing.

Second, gun grabbing rhetoric was made up by the NRA who are nothing more than a lobby for the gun industry. Selling guns, that's what they're about. They're a hell of a lobby too, I can't even imagine how much the gun industry has grown since they got on their 2nd Amendment kick in the 80's.

We've always had gun laws, since the 1930's at least. The AWB affects 19 out of over 600 guns. Nobody's right to own a gun is infringed when you've got 580 to choose from. I know why dipshit Republicans buy into the whole liberal gun grabber bullshit, I have no idea why good Dems do. We've got more control over cars than we do guns and the sole purpose of a gun is to kill. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

"Second, gun grabbing rhetoric was made up by the NRA who are nothing more than a lobby for the gun industry."

Well, yeah, that is why they are called the gun lobby. What else would they lobby for?

"Selling guns, that's what they're about. They're a hell of a lobby too, I can't even imagine how much the gun industry has grown since they got on their 2nd Amendment kick in the 80's."

Actually, gun purchases increase during periods of high gun control activity because people start thinking they won't be able to purchase certain weapons, so they start buying them even if they weren't planning on it.

"We've always had gun laws, since the 1930's at least."

Well, unless you count the Jim Crow laws in the late 19th century prohibiting blacks from having the same right to keep and bear arms as white folks did. That was essentially the first type of gun control in the United States. These racist laws still exist today, of course. Now, they are called the National Firearms Act and Discretionary Issue CCW.

"The AWB affects 19 out of over 600 guns."

Actually, those 19 are merely the weapons "banned" by name. The main thrust of the AWB was the prohibition of a combination of certain features like bayonet lugs and collapsible stocks.

"Nobody's right to own a gun is infringed when you've got 580 to choose from."

Any kind of infringement is still infringement, no matter how small you may perceive it to be.

"I know why dipshit Republicans buy into the whole liberal gun grabber bullshit, I have no idea why good Dems do."

Not sure what you are getting at here since most gun control legislation in the past 20 years were passed by GOP administrations.

"We've got more control over cars than we do guns"

So, you mean to buy a car I have to undergo a background and identity check and be of a certain age? And by that token if I buy a gun, I can carry it with me everywhere I go as long as I pay an annual tax?

"the sole purpose of a gun is to kill."

I guess the vast, vast majority of the 200 million guns out there are seriously malfunctioning since they aren't fulfilling their purpose.

"Makes absolutely no sense to me."

If you knew a bit more about the subject, it may help you understand more clearly.

Features like flash supressors, bi-pod and bayonet lugs and collapsible stocks are all features of military-grade weapons. Some of the features banned make the weapon more concealable, which is only useful for criminal purposes--there's a reason the Barrow gang sawed off the stocks and barrels of their shotguns. There is no reason to own a military-grade weapon, and even less to help make it concealable.

"Features like flash supressors, bi-pod and bayonet lugs and collapsible stocks are all features of military-grade weapons."

What is a military grade weapon? I assure you that the M16A2 I carried in Iraq as a Marine does not have close to the same capability as the semi-auto look-alike covered by the AWB.

"Some of the features banned make the weapon more concealable, which is only useful for criminal purposes--there's a reason the Barrow gang sawed off the stocks and barrels of their shotguns."

Well, actually weapons with collapsible stocks still must comply with minimum barrel/total length restrictions set since 1934. Having an adjustable stock does not make it more concealable than if you had the stock pinned to the minimum requirement. It does help in accomodating shooters of smaller stature though like women with shorter arms. Sawing off stocks/barrels below minimum requirements without getting a special tax stamp is a federal felony and won't be any more legal or illegal with the expiration of the AWB.

"There is no reason to own a military-grade weapon, and even less to help make it concealable."

There are plenty of reasons to own military-grade weapons - as a collectible, for recreation, and for defense. Of course, the AWB doesn't even cover military-grade weapons so that is different discussion altogether. And as specified earlier, minimum barrel/total lengths still apply even after the AWB expires in two days.

A military-grade weapon is one designed for military use. Beyond collecting and recreation, there is no purpose for these weapons. I don't think they should be banned outright, but I do think that strict regulations can be applied so that collectors and recreational shooters can still acquire the weapons without saturating the market with such a number of these weapons that they fall more easily into the hands of criminals. Making them harder to acquire will cut down on that, but won't ban their ownership for responsible citizens. Home defense is best accomplished with a garden-variety shotgun--a semi-auto AK47 isn't as capable in that environment.

The only difference between these and semi-auto hunting rifles is that these are black and scary looking. Functionally, they work exactly the same. Some of the calibers may actually be too weak for most hunting.

As for preferred weapons for home defense, I'm comfortable having each individual person make that decision for their own unique situation. A shotgun may be good for a suburban home, but a rifle may be more appropriate on a ranch or for protecting a store during civil unrest.

You don't know much about guns, do you?

One trigger pull, one shot.

Both must have at least 16" barrels and an overall length of 26".

The only real difference is standard ammo.

An Uzi uses subsonic pistol rounds, whereas hunting rifles use more powerful supersonic rounds in larger calibers.

Now, if you were talking about fully automatic Uzis, they are covered under the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the AWB sunset would not affect the restrictions on them at all.

By the way, have your read Post 8?

because your post didn't really move the discussion forward for me.

"Well, yeah, that is why they are called the gun lobby. What else would they lobby for?"

This seems like an attempt to make your opponent look stupid.

"Actually, gun purchases increase during periods of high gun control activity because people start thinking they won't be able to purchase certain weapons, so they start buying them even if they weren't planning on it."

Hmmm, so should we make a special law for anyone caught hoarding weapons that they know will be banned ? A fine perhaps ? Sounds like we should.

"Well, unless you count the Jim Crow laws in the late 19th century prohibiting blacks from having the same right to keep and bear arms as white folks did. That was essentially the first type of gun control in the United States. These racist laws still exist today, of course. Now, they are called the National Firearms Act and Discretionary Issue CCW."

We better fix that huh ? Rich white guys should not be encouraged by law to own all of the guns. Are most violent crimes committed with a firearm committed by white males ?

"Actually, those 19 are merely the weapons "banned" by name. The main thrust of the AWB was the prohibition of a combination of certain features like bayonet lugs and collapsible stocks."

bayonet lugs and collapsible stocks ? Is this for deer hunting ?

"Any kind of infringement is still infringement, no matter how small you may perceive it to be."

And good too that we permit consuming alcohol but we draw the line at drunk driving right ?

Ha, I guess that you could consider prohibiting the private ownership of WMD's infringement then but it's still a good idea right ?

"Not sure what you are getting at here since most gun control legislation in the past 20 years were passed by GOP administrations."

I have never heard that before. Have a link to some statistics ?

"So, you mean to buy a car I have to undergo a background and identity check and be of a certain age? And by that token if I buy a gun, I can carry it with me everywhere I go as long as I pay an annual tax?"

It's a permit fee isn't it ? Or a license fee ? When I applied for a new license they somehow found out I had an outstanding warrant for not paying my damn parking tickets. Can they find out if you have siezures by checking your background before they give you a license ? I hope so. An annual fee sounds like a good idea for gun owners. Sheesh you have to have the hunting permit for animals why not humans ?

"guess the vast, vast majority of the 200 million guns out there are seriously malfunctioning since they aren't fulfilling their purpose."

How many gun murders and accidental shootings were there this year ? A whole bunch I bet with all of those guns around. Not 200 million of course but bad enough to make sure our laws keep evolving to try and curb the number of senseless deaths and injury huh ?

I looked for a statistic and I found this. Shocking really !

From 1990-1998, two-thirds of spouse and ex-spouse murder victims were killed with guns.
Guns are the weapon of choice for troubled individuals who commit suicide. In 1999, firearms were used in 16,599 suicide deaths in America. Among young people under 20, one committed suicide with a gun every eight hours.
A gun in the home also increases the likelihood of an unintentional shooting, particularly among children. Unintentional shootings commonly occur when children find an adult's loaded handgun in a drawer or closet, and while playing with it shoot themselves, a sibling or a friend. The unintentional firearm-related death rate for children 0-14 years old is NINE times higher in the U.S. than in the 25 other countries combined.

http://www.bradycampaign.org

"If you knew a bit more about the subject, it may help you understand more clearly."

I think the more I know the more serious gun control sounds good to me.

"This seems like an attempt to make your opponent look stupid."

Why would you think that? I was merely pointing what the mission of the organization is.

"Hmmm, so should we make a special law for anyone caught hoarding weapons that they know will be banned ? A fine perhaps ? Sounds like we should."

How and why would you do that? Make a law to arrest people who are following the law?

"We better fix that huh ? Rich white guys should not be encouraged by law to own all of the guns. Are most violent crimes committed with a firearm committed by white males?"

We should fix it. Everyone of all ethnicities, gender, religion, etc. should have equal access and protection. Most violent firearm crimes are commited by young gangmembers involved in the illegal drug trade.

"bayonet lugs and collapsible stocks ? Is this for deer hunting?"

Bayonet lugs are for mounting bayonets. It's more of a nostalgic thing than anything else. Collapsible stocks are useful for people of smaller stature or shorter arms like women.

"And good too that we permit consuming alcohol but we draw the line at drunk driving right ?"

The line of liberty is always drawn at the point when your liberty infringes on the liberty of others.

"Ha, I guess that you could consider prohibiting the private ownership of WMD's infringement then but it's still a good idea right ?"

What law prohibits private ownership of WMD?

"I have never heard that before. Have a link to some statistics ?"

Well Bush Sr. signed the Firearms Owners Protection Act which outlawed future production of civilian machine guns and Reagan signed the Mulford Act, both of which (IMHO) were more detrimental to the RKBA than the Brady Bill and AWB that Clinton signed.

"It's a permit fee isn't it ? Or a license fee ? When I applied for a new license they somehow found out I had an outstanding warrant for not paying my damn parking tickets. Can they find out if you have siezures by checking your background before they give you a license ? I hope so. An annual fee sounds like a good idea for gun owners. Sheesh you have to have the hunting permit for animals why not humans ?"

You can get a concealed carry license which is an extensive background check. Personally, I am much more averse to Discretionary Issue CCW than Shall-Issue because that allows police chiefs to deny giving permits to the poor and minorities.

"How many gun murders and accidental shootings were there this year ? A whole bunch I bet with all of those guns around. Not 200 million of course but bad enough to make sure our laws keep evolving to try and curb the number of senseless deaths and injury huh ?"

This year? I doubt there are statistics out yet, but I'd gather probably around 7,000 murders so far. Of course, most of those are gangmembers killing each other. If you can think of any gun control that can actually affect violent crime, go ahead and be my guest because there is no proof that any of the current laws we have do a damn thing, but punish law-abiding citizens for the acts of criminals. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

"From 1990-1998, two-thirds of spouse and ex-spouse murder victims were killed with guns.
Guns are the weapon of choice for troubled individuals who commit suicide. In 1999, firearms were used in 16,599 suicide deaths in America. Among young people under 20, one committed suicide with a gun every eight hours.
A gun in the home also increases the likelihood of an unintentional shooting, particularly among children. Unintentional shootings commonly occur when children find an adult's loaded handgun in a drawer or closet, and while playing with it shoot themselves, a sibling or a friend. The unintentional firearm-related death rate for children 0-14 years old is NINE times higher in the U.S. than in the 25 other countries combined."

The Brady Campaign isn't really a credible source (Sarah Brady is a Republican by the way). They are known for massaging statistics to suit their agenda. I'd also keep in mind that correlation does not imply causation.

"I think the more I know the more serious gun control sounds good to me."

That's your choice, but if you don't know about guns, how are you going to craft serious gun control?

Could have read that crap on any number of right wing sites. 200 million guns and you think your rights are being infringed upon. Puhlease. The right wing thinks George Bush makes them tough, brave, strong, courageous and safe, doesn't make it true. Just like having a gun doesn't do any of that either. Big lies, false bravado, dick swinging. That's all it is.

"Could have read that crap on any number of right wing sites."

You consider protecting rights a right-wing issue? I, for one, do not.

When you start cherry picking rights you don't care for, you invite the other side to do the same with the rights you cherish.

"200 million guns and you think your rights are being infringed upon."

Yes, I do. Do you consider the partial-birth abortion ban an infringement of your rights? After all, it is just a small restriction right?

"The right wing thinks George Bush makes them tough, brave, strong, courageous and safe, doesn't make it true."

They do? Ok, if you say so.

"Just like having a gun doesn't do any of that either. Big lies, false bravado, dick swinging. That's all it is."

When did I say a gun made you anything of the sort? What lies have I written?

It grandfathered a ton of guns, if you go and look at current firearms available on the market you will find many American made guns which some how slip pass the ban which SHOULD be banned.

It really hasn't stopped the Evil guns frm being illeagaly sold on the streets.

Check out this nice piece of firearm:
http://www.berettausa.com/product/spotlight/spotlight_cx4_main.htm

yes this gun is sellable under the AWB!! It is a cool gun though, as cool as guns can be..

:eyes:

1.) What does the AWB REALLY do and why should I care?

The AWB mainly banned semi-auto rifles, shotguns & handguns (all one shot per trigger pull) that used a detachable ammo magazine, and also had two or more of the following parts:

- "barrel shroud" that covered the barrel to let you hold on to it
- bayonet lug (for attaching a bayonet)
- adjustable or folding stock
- "flash supressor" on the end of the muzzle (to reduce glare for the shooter)
- pistol grip that sticks out from the firearm
- any second pistol grip attached to the firearm

The AWB also banned semi-auto shotguns that had a pistol grip & NO detachable magazine if the shotgun held more than 5 rounds of ammo.

Also lumped into the AWB was a restriction on the possession of ammo magazines that held more than 10 rounds. Any such magazine made after 1994 was restricted to government use only; any such magazine made before 1994 was good to go.

2.) Is it a good thing or a bad thing both politically and for safety's sake to attempt to renew it?

- I think it's bad politically because the ban did nothing to reduce the amount of firepower that people had, despite the propaganda in support of the ban. It banned rifles that look similar to this (even though this is legal under the ban, you get the idea):



But not this:



Even though both firearms are semi-auto & use detachable magazines, and even fire the same exact ammo.

Pre-existing federal law from 1934 governs both minimum legal barrel length and the minimum legal overall length for shotguns and rifles.

The only part of the AWB that had an arguable impact on safety is the magazine capacity restrictions. However, there was a large supply of pre-1994 magazines that made the ban ineffective in practice.


3.) What is this gun show loophole I've been hearing about and why should I care?

The "gun show loophole" refers to the fact that federal law only requires a firearms purchaser to go through a background check if the purchase or transfer is handled by a federally licensed firearms dealer. This license is issued by BATFE after an extensive application process.

Through existing laws, by de facto, any newly manufactured firearm will only be sold to the first retail buyer if the sale is through a federally licensed dealer. Also, any interstate transfer of a firearm has to be handled by one of these licensed dealers (i.e., owner in MD wants to sell to a buyer in VA).

The "loophole" is that federal law does not cover that first buyer's subsequent sale of that firearm if the sale takes place in the buyer's state of residence to a person who lives in that same state. Because of the Commerce Clause, there is no federal authority over that intra-state sale. Some states mandate a background check on all firearms sales in their state (CA), or sales on certain firearms like handguns (NC, MD), but not all of them.

"Gun show loophole" is used to describe these private secondary sales because of the "scare factor" in that name. Many, if no most, secondary firearms sales without the background checks take place nowhere near a gun show. These sales can take place anywhere: a living room, shooting range, parking lot, alley, etc.

I now understand the "gunshow loop-hole"

I'm no expert on firearms, so I have a few questions for those here who are experts on both guns themselves and gun control issues.

1.) What does the AWB REALLY do and why should I care?
2.) Is it a good thing or a bad thing both politically and for safety's sake to attempt to renew it?
3.) What is this gun show loophole I've been hearing about and why should I care?

Thanks a ton.

Hello, Aldian, I'll answer your questions as best I can.

1.) What does the AWB REALLY do...?
Albian, the AWB of 1994 has an effect on semiautomatic rifles, certain pistols, and the manufacture of detachable box magazines. I am most familiar with its effect on rifles. It bans the manufacture of semiautomatic rifles (one bullet per trigger pull...NOT machine guns which are regulated under the 1934 and 1986 laws) that have more than two of the following features:

1. "Pistol grip"
2. Detachable box magazines
3. Bayonet/bipod attachment point
4. Screw threads on barrel
5. Stock adjustable for length (collapsable or folding)
6. Flash redirector (prevents fireballs from flying out of muzzle)

Most manufacturers of these rifles decided to keep the "pistol grip" and the detachable box magazines. They simply didn't put on a bipod attachment point, didn't pay a machinist to machine threads onto the barrel, used a less expensive fixed-length stock, and put on a muzzle brake (recoil reducer) instead of the flash reducer/suppresor. Therefore, they were able to make the rifles at a lower cost. The ban also banned the sale of certain named rifles. The manufacturers simply changed the name. For example, Colt's Patent Firearms Manufacturing Company changed the name of the AR-15 to the "Sporter". Olympic Arms changed their name to "Politically Correct Rifle", Armalite called it the M15. Thereofore, the ban simply made rifle manufacturing less expensive, and reduced consumer choice of features.

The ban also banned the manufacture of certain pistols that I am not familiar with, by name. I do know that the manufacturers just changed the names of the guns to comply.

The 1994 ban also banned the manufacture of detachable box magazines holding more than 10 rounds. How the number 10 was come up with, I don't know. It seems arbitrary and capricious. Basically, it artificially raised "pre-ban" magazine prices, but not too much. Overall, I don't think it had much of an effect on anything, as AK magazines still didn't cost more than $15.00.

Overall, the AWB of 1994 was nothing more than an inconvenience to millions of people like me, but it did make rifles cheaper...which is a good thing.

2.) Is it a good thing or a bad thing both politically and for safety's sake to attempt to renew it?

Well, you judge for yourself, based upon what you read above. Politically, I think it's just plain dumb. The ban is credited with the huge Democratic losses in the House 1994. As for safety, you are now armed with the facts above. The answer is obvious. It has and has had no effect.

3.) What is this gun show loophole I've been hearing about and why should I care?

Albian, the "gun show loophole" is non existant. Certain people would like you to believe that anybody can go to a gunshow and get whatever they want. They are full of it. When a buyer visits a dealer at a gunshow, he still has to go through the FBI NICS background check. However, if he purchases a firearm from a private collector, who is from the same state, the NICS does not apply. I personally don't care too much about this so-called "loophole". It seems to be an attempt by some to prevent the transfer of private property between individuals residing in the same state. PM me if you want more info.

I hope that my answers have been helpful to you in your quest for the truth. I've tried to separate fact from opinion, and I'd be happy to help you further. Best of luck.

... is our position on gun control. As a liberal, I believe in freedom first and foremost. Taking my ability to defend my home and family with whatever means necessary just really rubs me wrong.

I really wish it wasn't a partisan issue.

:hi:

For real fun, you should stop by the Justice/Public Safety forum sometime (also known as "the Gun Dungeon" because it's the last discussion forum listed, down at the bottom of the forums list)