WHY did CBS just play Amazing Grace for the 9/11 victims?

:wtf: It's a Christian hymn. Given the area of the WTC and Pentagon, a high percentage of the victims were Jews, Muslims, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Hindus and any number of other religions. It seems disrespectful and insulting to fit them all into one religions form of mourning.

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The lyrics in case you wonder. "Grace" is a Christian concept.

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved.
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
and mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we've been there ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun,
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

John Newton 1725-1807 (stanza 6 Anon)

It's generic inspiration as far as I'm concerned.

If the words themselves are distinctively Christian, so be it. I usually listen to the melody rather than the lyrics of songs.

"Amazing Grace" has become a generic mourning hymn. I don't think of any one religion when I hear it.

Grace is the Christian concept that you don't have to earn God's acceptance. It's what makes Christianity unique -hardly manipulative

haunting, recognized piece of music.

think of religion. I get images of the Emerald Isle especially when it's bagpiped.

that exactly what music genre CBS played. They are more likely to note the respect paid.

But, if you must, be offended for them.

who is sick to death of the constant, constant overt and subliminal messages that this is a christian nation and that christian things fit all of us.

I'm like, sitting here thinking about stuff like the 1001 (probably more as of today) dead soldiers, tens of thousands of Iraqis, heck, even that typewriter.

and as a non-christian, I find the constant imposition of christian values, messages, and now even mourning styles on those who may not be christian to be a major problem for this country.

oops. sorry.

But I do agree with the sentiment, and I wish more people would wake up to this.

cornoners painted crosses on the road to designate where their relatives died.

For people who were not Christian, it WAS offensive to their relatives.

Funny, probably alot of muslims would say that the burka or hijab is not a "religious" garment, but try to put one on me and my ass is going to be offended, mightily.

I'm on the side of keeping things secular, expecially with the huge amount of middle-eastern names read at the commemoration.

I can not understand why so many here at DU do not.

it will get 'gotten' for them.

There won't be much of that confusion and ambivalence left . But it won't matter, because as a second term president, he can do anything he wants.

People may laud CBS for doing the right thing occasionally, but they are still are bought and paid for by the corporate powers that be. Next, I'd expect to hear, "God Bless the USA"

... a hymn that's practically a national anthem among the most intolerant, mean, Old-Testament-thumpin' Xtian sects in this country.

In my neck of the woods, Amazing Grace is just a bagpiper's staple.

If you're looking for emotional manipulation, play Abide With Me. Now there's a tear-jerker for ya!
I can hold myself together at most funerals until I hear this song.

It was used in the funeral of Spock in the 2nd Star Trek movie. That series is not particularly Christian, and treated the traditional creation story as "myth".

But Star Trek is fiction. Spock does not really exist.

These people were real, their survivors are REAL.

I know it is a somber subject, but thanks for the chuckle there.

I watched the towers fall for the first time in 3 years today on tv, I just couldn't stand it before...

I'm highly insulted. It wasn't logical for you to do that.

Thanks for the laugh.

Just because some of the reactionary forces of Christianity have adopted this incredible bit of music and sentiment, I think its appeal crosses sectarian lines, like chapter 6 verse 8 of Micah.

John Newton, the composer of the song, had been the captain of a slave ship before having a change of heart and coming to see his traffic as human beings instead of cargo. His life-changing experience resulted in the song "Amazing Grace." Would that more traffickers in lucrative human misery would have their hearts so changed.

several years elapsed between Newton's "life changing experience" and his leaving the lucrative slave trade. Maybe he was a proto-fundy

Lyrically, it is certainly a Christian hymn. And I think that the melody was lifted from an old drinking song.

I always enjoy hearing children sing the "wretch like me" part (but I have an odd sense of humor)

Please, stop it. That's all I've got to say. Come on, seriously, you've got to lighten up.

non-Christians. You as a Christian may not see it, but I can guaruntee you that plenty of the survivors are as offended as I am.

but I really don't think the intent was to mock other religions, or force Christianity on other survivors. I think the hymn has become popular enough to transcend secterian bounds. It's similar to the Congress singing God Bless America the day after 9-11.

but it WAS chosen with a complete lack of sensitivity or understanding of the concerns and feelings of non-christians. The fact that so many here can not understand that a christian hymn is not generic shows how deeply ingrained in our country the idea of the US as a christian nation has become. This is insulting, and truthfully, rather oppressive to non-christians.

By the way, Congress singing God Bless America the day after 9-11, was also a imposition of christianity on the rest of us. That was even worse, since it was a breach of the boundaries between church and state.

does have a very long religious history. A lot of good (and bad, when misused)has come out of this. I think that a lot of the traditions this nation was built on are Judeo-Christian. It's not about forcing one religion, or violating separation of church and state, it's rather about historical tradition (as in swaering in with the Bible, etc).

and I agree another song should have been chosen....but for the life of me, I'm having trouble thinking of any sort of inspirational/mourning song in honor of the dead that is NOT religious to some degree. "Danny Boy" is the closest I can arrive at, but I only know one verse, so the other verses could be religious and I wouldn't know it.

Do you have a suggestion?

but it WAS chosen with a complete lack of sensitivity or understanding of the concerns and feelings of non-christians.

America is huge melting pot, no matter what we do someone will be offended by our choices, those with philosophy X will not like it when those who share a different one get air time. If we wish to be truly tolerant we need to focus less on being offended and more on being educated on what things means and how they relate. When we get offended it says more about us than the people who we see as offending us (whose intention generally speaking was not to offend in the first place).

In a country where the majority have some form of christian belief and have, over the decades, created a bond with a song which has a deep rooted meaning to them then playing such a song is as much a cultural as it is a religious symbol (ie, even those who aren't religious can understand the cultural aspects and roots of the song and how it ties into our history - and hence it's value outside a church).

From a sheer music history perspective it is a worthwhile song to play, and like many pieces of music (or any art) there is often a rich history surrounding it which goes beyond the surface of the words and stretches deep into our past. Van Gogh paintings are worth so much because of their history and who painted them, not simply due to what was painted.

As far as the song, it has a rich history (here is blurb about a book on the song):

http://www.harpercollins.com/catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060002182

Behind our most beloved song is a fascinating story spanning continents, cultures, and centuries. Inspired by the way "Amazing Grace" continues to change and grow in popularity, acclaimed music writer Steve Turner embarks on a journey to trace the life of the hymn, from Olney, England, where it was written by former slave trader John Newton, to tiny Plantain Island off the coast of Africa, where Newton was held captive for almost a year, to the Kentucky-Tennessee border and other parts of the South, where the hymn first began to spread.

The hymn made its way across the Atlantic to South Carolina, where the lyrics were published for the first time with a tune. Through the nineteenth century it appeared in more and more hymnals, and in the twentieth century it rose to become a gospel and folk standard, then exploded into pop music with Judy Collins's masterful 1970 a capella recording, which took over the charts. The majority of the more than 450 recordings held by the Library of Congress were made after 1970 and include versions by artists as varied as Elvis Presley, Ladysmith Black Mambazo, Tiny Tim, A] Green, Johnny Cash, Rod Stewart, Chet Baker, and Destiny's Child. Amazing Grace closely examines this modern history as Turner traces the hymn through the American gospel tradition in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries and interviews contemporary artists to reveal why they were compelled to record the hymn.

Damn, why did they have to take everything so seriously...

That's real positive. We disagree, and you lump me in with the Nazis. The fundies make a living off the stereotype that liberals are intolerant of Christians, and call them Nazis when they disagree. Way to help them along.

I can't imagine why that would b a problem....I agree with those who believe it has become a pretty secular statement, despite its Christian origins.... (especially when they play it on bagpipes).

by blessing the grave.

They convert your whole family tree if you convert.

The have the largest geneaology library on the planet, I think.

I sometimes cannot believe the stupid whining I read here.

We make "fake" media friends at the same time we complain about Faux being biased.

We complain about stuff that is so friggin trivial and makes people look stupid sensitive - c'mon - what on earth is going on here?

Threads like this make me BOILING ANGRY - isn't there something of substance to discuss here?

:angry:

Or is this the "royal 'we'"?

Just trying to be a good citizen as I sit here and read these stupid whining posts.

CBS is concerned about it's own integrity, but it is not our friend.

If it is trying to take down Bush, it is for it's own interests.

this country into a "Christian nation"

If this isn't a problem for you, perhaps you could find a nice theocracy elsewhere. I would like to avoid one sneaking up on me in this country.

And because these Fundies never use their brains, they will fall for it.

What would be a better alternative song to play?
Was this the singing version or just the melody?

I actually think it is an okay song, but I think it has become such a ritualized standard that it has lost some of its beauty and specialness.

Also, I'm Jewish and if a religious-based song is going used in a public ceremony or on TV to honor the memory of someone then this is the one. It references "God" and "Lord", but they lyrics aren't so blatantly Christ-centered so as to make non-Christians uncomfortable. To me it talks about struggling through difficult times, persevering and ultimately finding grace. For some "grace" may be Jesus. For some "grace" may be Allah. Or Vishnu.

I think you're reading too much into it.

uncomfortable, then why am I and several others in this thread uncomfortable?

I don't just get up in the morning and decide to look for something to be offended at. I find this a genuinely offensive imposition of a sectarian religious hymn, and although it may not have offended you, I'd be willing to bet that there are a number of other Jews and people of other religions who did find it offensive. Not to mention the people in this country who do not have or want a religion.

I can't conceive of this one being one to pick, but if you are truly offended, what can I say?

we had delegates from all over the world, Israel, Japan, what not. At the welcome dinner one of the local hosts asked if they could say a prayer before dinner and I reluctantly said OK but please make it ecumenical, very generic. The prayer ended "all this we ask, in JAYZUZ name! AYMEN! AYMEN!"....

The prayer giver came up to me and I expected him to say it just slippde out of his mouth by habit which I would have understood. No. He said "These people are guests in our CHRISTIAN nation, they need to respect our way of life."

Oy.

Ugh.

I work for a state agency. My coworkers know that I am not religious, nor are 2 other people in our small office of only 7 people. Whenever we eat together (sometimes these events can not be avoided) 2 of these women always decide that we all have to say grace together, even in restaurants. They ask my boss if they can be the one to say grace, to which he always agrees and then it is held as a mass grace. They pray loudly and in very definitly christian terms. I don't want to be rude, but honestly it is getting a bit old. If they want to say grace, they can say it silently and to themselves, as many people do. That would not bother me a bit.

These women act like they have no idea why the 3 who are not Christian find this pushing their religion on us, and how involving our boss in approving it is even worse. GRRRRR

This has become a continuous barrage of religious messages in the last few years. Some people may not be aware of it, but those of us who are not religious, or who are not a very mainstream religion realize how constant has become the flood of religious pressure.

How about the next time you ask to lead "grace" and say a prayer in Arabic and end it with "Allah be praised." Or, you can even use a Wiccan prayer of thanksgiving (I can round one up for you) and see how they react. I am sure they will say the feel uncomfortable and as if they are being insulted. Explain that is how you are feeling (if that is the truth). Sometimes people only understand something when they, themselves, are placed in a similar position.

Be prepared for some flak!

Brightest Blessings!

(BTW...I have done this to a group who always wanted to thank Jesus...then when I led a prayer in Hebrew (my family is Jewish), the new rule was "silent" grace!)

:eyes:

What exactly does this "grace " do ? What does "grace" mean and how does that separate those who believe they have it from those who are bewildered over this concept and seek to see some real representation of something that separates the "grace" benefactors from others. I have no evidence that those who claim to have this "grace" are living any different lives than those who, in theory, do not have it.

So, what is this "grace"?

actually, this is a parable.
A man was found guilty of murder, and when summoned to the judge for his sentencing, the judge looked upon him, got down from the bench and then the judge accepted the death sentence for the murderer and died in his stead.

1. Grace means that none of us are worthy of the kingdom of God, but God allows us in anyways by his grace. It is like forgiveness on steroids, or a presidential pardon...that sort of thing. It exists separate from our own righteousness or lack thereof.

In the parable, grace had nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of the murderer...it had to do with will of the judge. So, grace is something which God employs to redeem us, but it is nothing we direct or control. We benefit from, but we do not manufacture grace.

2. As per the above, when you ask what separates the grace benefactors from others, there is no separation. All have sinned. Grace is available to all. But not all accept that grace.

As to whether those who have accepted that grace live different lives than those who in theory do not have grace (as your question suggests), instead, it may help to realize that grace abounds for all in spite of our varied efforts/non efforts at righteousness, rather than because of them.

I think you may be confusing two issues: grace, and works. Works is more related to individual faith than grace. You seem to be concluding that christians who do not act like christians call the validity of grace into question, but grace remains separate and undiluted apart from works. Works are a demonstration of faith. Work result from the person successfully/unsuccessfully having faith that grace overcomes their sin.

I"m struggling with an analogy, but lets try this imperfect one: Have you ever volunteered to work for special olympics? I have. I was a "hugger". No matter how fast or slow the participant ran the race, all participants received a hug. That hug was independent of their record or abilities. That's grace. Now, within the race itself, some run well, and some run poorly. But whoever they are, if they want a hug at the finish line, they get one.
The place of the runner in the race is works, and that based on the faith they had in themselves and something outside themselves. The reward of the race, though, is the same for all: all are treated as if they had won the race, and all are hugged.

I"m not sure that that is what your were looking for, necessarily. But that is how I interpret grace. I hope that helps.

means it was a rhetorical question not in search of an answer.

Pity.

It's not even really appropriate for a memorial occasion unless the deceased was Christian, but it's well known, and people who have limited musical knowledge pull it out of the hat whenever there's a solemn occasion.

The same type of people who think Amazing Grace is appropriate for such an occasion also think that "Every Breath You Take" is a love song.

Personally, I'm tired of Amazing Grace, and feel that it needs to be retired as the all-purpose hymn.

If you're going to use a hymn for a 9/11 memorial, how about this one? It's interdenominationally theistic (anot exactly written along the guidelines for inclusive language, although it could be revised.)

Turn back o man, forswear they foolish ways.
Old now is earth and none may count her days.
Yet thou her child, whose head is crowned with flame,
Still wilt not hear thine inner God proclaim
Turn back o man, forswear they foolish ways.

Earth might be fair and all men glad and wise
Age after age their tragic empires rise
Built while they dream and in that dreaming weep.
Would man but wake from out his haunted sleep.
Earth might be fair and all men glad and wise.

Earth shall be fair and all her people one
Nor till that hour shall God's whole will be done
Now even now once more from earth to sky
Peals forth in joy that old undaunted cry:
"Earth shall be fair and all her people one."

and it's worse on bagpipes. I have attended several funerals with Amazing Grace on bagpipes and the bagpipes were never played well. It was painful to hear.

I also don't think too highly of the "I'm a piece of crap but I'm YOUR piece of crap" that the first verse seems to say. But then that's just my interpretation of it.

"Every Breath You Take" gaaaaak!

I remember "Turn Back O Man" from Godspell, which I performed in when I was in HS.

it was touching and appropriate then, I don't see why its any different now.

I'm sure that most Americans know the song, but many couldn't sing past the first four lines.

on the company who sponsored it......their name was in the lower right hand corner at the end of the montage......"In Thanksgiving".

It would certainly improve what I am thinking about CBS's common sense. It could have been a paid commercial and I wouldn't have known since I had stepped out of the room and came back at the end of it.

:shrug:

I'm stunned.

task of REMOVING the UNELECTED FRAUD from the White House.

Very Kabbalistic actually.

...a Christian only hymn?