the BIGGEST lie.....Osama and 9-11-01

how many of you, now that they've all been proven to be congenital liars, still buy the official lie about Osama attacking the world trade center? in my estimation, the only way to decipher the garbage that comes from the white house is to believe EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what is said. so, if they say Osama is the guy who attacked us, i don't fucking believe it.

Dude, It WAS osama, did you notice like tons of tapes showing it was him? OR how about all those arabs that had trained at al quaida on the planes.

GEt a grip this is ridiculous.

I was and am still 120% for what we did in afghanistan

afghanistan is a mess. if osama was behind 9/11 (how can you be so sure after all the lies from bushco, now more apparent than ever, was it the passports of the hijackers found on ground zero?)
then where the hell is he?

if osama was behind 9/11. . . then where the hell is he?

What do those two things have to do with one another? I don't get your point.

Listen, Osama was behind 9/11. We were right to go after the Taliban. The problem is, we're doing a piss-poor job of post-war governing. The country has been reduced to the embattled city-state of Kabul. Karzai is powerless. The warlords and the Taliban have returned to the country. The opium crop is in full bloom. Make no mistake: Al Qaeda will be back in Afghanistan, if it isn't already.

thank you.

shown on most tv stations..

and common sense

...would never hold up in court (i hereby declare that i was behind the whole thing from start to finish and osama had nothing to do with it. so much for confessions.)

if that's all you've got, do you really wonder why you're not being taken seriously?

I was and am still 120% for what we did in afghanistan.

You were there? Good, you should always practice what you preach.

If you really weren't there ...

ENLIST OR RESIST.

...

...

p.s. it is impossible to support anything more than 100%.

And i dont get why i should enlist to be honest

if you sit at home supporting illegal invasions of sovereign nations when you could be over there fighting for what you supposedly believe in, you're nothing more than a chickenhawk.

I dont believe the invasion to Afghanistan to be illegal. They housed Osama that had attacked us. We told them time after time give us Osama and youll be ok.

Well then we showed then what we do to countries that harbors poeple that attacks us

I don't know if you will return to this thread,but ...

We told them time after time give us Osama and youll be ok.

No. A few weeks after 9/11, Bush was offered OBL. He declined.

Late September-Early October 2001: According to a later Mirror article, leaders of Pakistan's two Islamic parties negotiate bin Laden's extradition to Pakistan to stand trial for the 9/11 attacks. Bin Laden would be held under house arrest in Peshawar and would face an international tribunal, which would decide whether to try him or hand him over to the US. According to reports in Pakistan (and the Telegraph), this plan has both bin Laden's approval and that of Taliban leader Mullah Omar. However, the plan is vetoed by Pakistan's president Musharraf who says he "could not guarantee bin Laden's safety." But it appears the US did not want the deal: a US official later says that "casting our objectives too narrowly" risked "a premature collapse of the international effort if by some lucky chance Mr. bin Laden was captured." (Mirror, 7/8/02)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/falloftaliban/page.cfm?objectid=11427607&method=full


Well then we showed then what we do to countries that harbors poeple that attacks us

We should invade New Jersey, Florida, Maine, Virginia and Georgia then, because they also "harbored" hijackers. Also we should attack the US military because they trained at least 7 of the hijackers.

September 15-17, 2001: A series of articles suggest that at least seven of the 9/11 hijackers trained in US military bases. (New York Times, 9/15/01, Newsweek, 9/15/01) Ahmed Alnami, Ahmed Alghamdi, and Saeed Alghamdi even listed the Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Florida as their permanent address on their driver's licenses. (Pensacola News Journal, 9/17/01). Hamza Alghamdi was also connected to the Pensacola base. (Washington Post, 9/16/01) A defense official confirms that Saeed Alghamdi is a former Saudi fighter pilot who attended the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California. (Los Angeles Times, 9/15/01, Gannett News Service, 9/17/01) Abdulaziz Alomari attended Brooks Air Force Base Aerospace Medical School in San Antonio, Texas. (Gannett News Service, 9/17/01) A defense official confirms Atta is a former Saudi fighter pilot who graduated from the US International Officers School at Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama. (Los Angeles Times, 9/15/01, Washington Post, 9/16/01) The media drops the story after the Air Force makes a not-very-definitive statement, saying that while the names are similar, "we are probably not talking about the same people." (Washington Post, 9/16/01) However, the military fails to provide any information about the individuals whose names supposedly match those of the alleged hijackers, making it impossible to confirm or refute the story.


Links to all those stories can be found here:
http://cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/timelineafter911.html

I doubt we did much to hurt bin Laden at all. We just made a mess of an already destitute country. And while sure, the Taliban were jerks, the government we left in charge is EXACTLY LIKE THEM. The Afghanis are probably not much better off than before, and as far as I can tell, we haven't made any headway at all at getting the people behind 9/11. Just blew up and bunch of innocent people.

You ought to read "To Afghanistan and Back," by Ted Rall. Sure showed me a couple things.

I dont care at all about the afghanis.. they can fix their country however they want, thats why i got so angry when Bush said we invaded iraq to liberate it.. seriously we went there for.. shit i dont know anylonger oil can be the only reason i know, maybe to have army bases or something. but DEFINETLY not to liberate iraquis. That is extreme hypocrasy.

Anyway to sum it up I dont care of afghanis and / or iraquis, we went to afghanistan to kill al quaida / capture osama not liberating the country. Usa has NEVER cared about liberating a country unless it serves our interest.

otherwise you would be able to see how innapropriate it was to carpet bomb a sovereign nation for ten months to get a handful of alleged bad guys. Would you recommend the same approach in a white christian country??

Invading Afghanistan was definitely illegal and immoral

"WE" can support the war in Afganistan all WE want without have to do what YOU demand.

By your rational, "We" can't support ANYTHING unless "We" participate in it personally.

to enlist and you support an invasion 120%, there is no earthly reason to sit on your ass and let others do the killing & dying for you, imho.

If you have no desire to go and fight why should you.

If i would sign up to fight in afghanistan i could be forced to fight the illegal war in iraq too and i would never do that

...want to see you supporting ANYTHING that you don't personally participate in. And I mean ANYTHING!!!

Otherwise you would be rightfully labeled a hypocrite.

Fair enough?

war and enlistment. Did I make a broad, sweeping claim? No. I simply stated that if you support a war so much and you are of age to enlist, then you should. I come from a family of people who enlisted voluntarily to serve their country when they came of age.

I don't give a crap what you label me. You label others on this site on a regular basis. Go right ahead, if it makes you feel better.

You're trying to make-up bullshit rules as you go along just so you can call someone a "Chickenhawk" in a FEEBLE effort to silence them.

All I am doing is forcing you to live up to your OWN feeble standard.

In other words, you can't have it both ways. Otherwise, you're a hypocrite. It's that simple.

She asked a question, I answered it.

You cannot force me to do anything, sorry.

Like I said, you can label me anything you want, if it makes you feel better.

You lable people with the unearned insult of "Chickenhawk" based on bullshit, ever-changing standards, and I'll lable you with the rightfully earned "Hypocrite" based on your own actions.

We're BOTH happy! :)

who haven't done anything to us, but don't want to go serve in the military themselves: Chickenhawk

If you don't like it; tough crap. Maybe you feel bad is why it pisses you off so much. A conscience can do weird things to you.

NO ONE I know of "Wants our army to go kill people who haven't done anything to us".

That is an attitude and specific phrase used by those who hate our military.

I don't hate our military. But I can't speak for you because I don't know you. But I have my suspicions of how you feel...

It sucks.

...You're entitled to your opinion, just like me.

But at least I haven't proven myself, here today, to be a hypocrite.

:thumbsdown:

You're right...that had to have been at least a week ago.

and would ahve joined back up to go to Kosovo, so I am not a chickenhawk.

If your support of our "president" and the status quo were any indication I would suspect something of you as well.

I havent seen one single post on this thread saying we want our army to kill innocent people

You may not WANT our army to kill innocent people, but when you send our troops and planes to a country that hasn't done anything to us(Afghanistan) and kill people there that are innocent (Afghanis) then you have killed innocent people.

It doesn't seem that hard to follow to me.

.

why don't you try it, for the sake of the environment.

Well you know what they say about the Big Lie.

Well maybe you don't.

from the turnip truck to the clue bus.

Do you speak Arabic? Can you understand precisely what "Osama" is saying on those tapes-- both the "fat" "Osama" and the "thin" one?
What's more, those tapes turned up as conveniently as Satam MA Al Suqami's passport in the WTC rubble, and the Koran and flight training video in the rental car.

Did you know that the Bu$$$h family has long had business ties with the bin Laden family, and that two bin Ladens died in separate plane crashes in Texas?

Did you know that OBL was one of our "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan while Dumbyuh's father was vice president?

How do you explain Bu$$$h's-- and Andy Card's-- behavior in the second grade classroom upon receiving the news of the second attack? (Hint: Neither one did a damn thing)

Why did both Bu$$$h and Cheney squelch Tom Daschle's attempts to hold investigations in the immediate aftermath of 9-11?

Why didn't the Air Force do a damn thing to protect the Pentagon, of all places, when there had been several hijackings reported and it was "known" that a hijacked plane was on its way back to DC? (Hint: Andrews Air Force Base, whose mission was, pre-911, to protect the skies of DC, was only 10 miles from the Pentagon but just sat there like a bump on a log)

How could Osama, in his cave in Afghanistan, have known that the US, with all its air force bases, wouldn't do a damn thing to stop the attacks?

And one more thing-- If a killer was in your neighborhood, would it be OK for the cops to wipe out the entire neighborhood (including your family) just to get this one killer? That was what happened (and is happening) in the freakin' war in Afghanistan.

Destroy the whole neighborhood if they willingly dont let up the fugitive.

No i dont speak arabic but that tape was translated by arabs among others. Why havent a arab written that the translation is wrong and that Osama is really speaking about flowers??

And yeah i know all about the republicans hypocrasy giving weapons to talibas, saddam etc. But thats not the point. Why should we suffer for what Reagan and Bush Sr did.

If they want to wipe out america wipe them out first, and stop supplying dictators and fundie islam nations with money/weapons

including translations by Arabs in Germany and elsewhere that differed significantly from the official Bu$$$h administration's "translation". What's more, the "fat" "bin Laden" is definitely not the same person as the "thin" one.

And if Bu$$$h was so certain that the perp was his business partners' (plural possessive) relative, why did he squelch, and is continuing to squelch, investigations into the attacks? Do you think "Shoot first, squelch questions later" is a good policy?

Do you think that it is a coincidence that Karzai, the Bu$$$h administration's hand-picked man and one-time consultant for the CentCom pipeline project (an (at the time) undoable project that UNOCAL Oil Company had lamented about in Congressional hearings in 1998) just happened to ink a pipeline deal just months after being installed as "Afghanistan's" (read, Kabul's) leader?

And do you not think it odd that so many people in the Bu$$$h administration (including Bu$$$h, Cheney, and National Security Advisor C. Rice) are all heavily involved in the oil industry, and the after effects from two wars against two 3rd world countries have been lucrative oil contracts?

If you still believe that Osama bin Goldstein, all alone in his cave in Afghanistan, completely masterminded these attacks without any outside help, then I've got some nice ski resorts in Death Valley to sell you.

Tons of tapes? I remember right afterwards, Bin Laden make a statement that said he had nothing to do with it. Bush made a statement that he had solid evidence it was Bin Laden, but it was secret so he wouldn't show us.

I really don't believe either one of them.

eom

OBL and the Bushes have been in business. OBL is in the same business Cheney's in. There has not been one shred of proof provided that OBL or ANY Arab did 9-11. The evidence available tilts heavily towards the Bush Crime Family. Besides that, since when do you attack a sovereign nation and carpet bomb it for 10 months to catch a couple hundred SUSPECTED criminals????? You are deluded Dude!!

Is a term Robert Anton Wilson uses when confronting realities that completely change your points of view. I've been in the Chapel for awhile...I agree that there are serious possibilities that Osama was not responsible...

I remember right after the second building fell, Tom Brokaw (we could only get NBC at work) said this must be Osama Bin Laden...now, how in the HELL would he know that within 2 hours??? The only way would be if he was previously told this, or if a worm (probably Rove) told NBC that Osama was responsible to deflect the administration from having to take any responsibility

My 63 year old mother right away said there was something fishy about 9-11 & Osama. I'm tending to move towards her point of view (no arab names on the flight manifests???? is this true??? I've been hearing this rumour for a few daze).

Anyways, good point Mopaul...my only complaint is how much that George Bush Chimp cartoon seriously freaks me out :)

pp23

I don't know how credible this source is, though:

No Arabs on Flight 77: Part I -The Passengers By Thomas R Olmsted, M.D.
http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm

No Arabs on Flight 77: Part II -The Passengers By Thomas R Olmsted, M.D.
http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/07/article_tro_flight77.htm

Didnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out you know.

simultaneous attacks in different parts of the country struck me as osama's m.o., escpecially after the african embassy bombings.

Good thing.

to murder thousands of Muslims. Man you are so out of touch with reality!!

Many people I was with on 9/11 immediately suspected Osama.

Nobody told us to...we didn't have any inside sources, we simply knew from the '93 experience that this guy seemed to have a fixation with the Twin Towers. (something Freudian there????)

Anyway, if you followed the '93 event, it wasn't such a long leap to connect 9/11 to Osama. No conspiracy.

and the bush family and the bin laden family go back decades in business and political intrigue, simply put, it is possible that osama was acting under orders from bushco, just like saddam does.

not OBL.

http://www.emergency.com/alrt1197.htm

were you aware that the FBI was highly involved in that and even supplied the explosives to the "terrorists". That their ringleader was an FBI informant?

Wake up for christsakes.

the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building, too. But they were wrong, unless the entire Timothy McVeigh story was a complete fabrication.

It's natural to suspect someone who's got a prior record of a similar crime but it does NOT prove guilt, only suggests it.

but I agree, mopaul, you improve your odds of knowing the truth by disbelieving everything this misAdministration says. The onerous falls on them to prove it.


On edit: corrected spelling in the title!. DU ROCKS

...you are more likely to be closer to the truth. this is political reality 101 and we need to seriously get it.

Tony B-Liar is of the same mould, never trusted him from day one, the tories as much as I dislike them were right about one thing, new labour-new danger.

There is a good reason why Bush wants to foil the investigation of 9/11. Whether this means that the attack was caused by operatives other than AlQueda, I don't know.

Another observation: I don't believe the plane that hit the Pentagon could have been flown by an amateur pilot. I live on the hill overlooking the Pentagon and the terrain makes such a flight impossible by a large jet liner unless expertly navigated. The plane would have crashed in the Sheraton Inn or my apartment building.

Other than that, I don't have to make conclusions but I have suspicions.

have known all along. Jeez took you guys long enough. :)
Perhaps I am preaching to the choir but it is certainly odd to see this thread pop up and nobody is dismissing it as "Conspiracy theory".

The whole Bush administration IS one big conspiracy - glad folks are finally wising up.

post #1

“If you once forfeit the confidence of your fellow citizens, you can never regain their respect and esteem. It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time; but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time.”

Abraham Lincoln 1865

Post # 1 must fall into the "some people all the time" category.

he may be on to something.

They prefer the official Bush* Admin. CT

I think it was Santayana (sp) who said:

"Skepticsm is the chastity of the intellect..." Added that chastity shouldn't be given up until there has been a long courtship with the facts.....

Still courting the facts.

I posted a query about this two days ago after re-reviewing mountains of official and "off-site" data, articles and theories on the 9-11 disaster......I got two responses, total. So, if it takes a DU longtimer to bring it up and get a response, no ego here. :-)

Maybe while we're at it, we can get an answer why they could spend $70 million of our money about the position of Clinton's zipper but only allocate $1m investigating the worst "terrorist attack" on US soil.

...more than any kook who's peddling bullshit conspiracy theories.

We know.

I'm glad some sane thought is being noticed. :)

I notice something, not sure it is in anyway sane.

they stand in such stark contrast to yours, how can we miss them?

"Conspiracy theory has become the intellectual equivalent of a four-letter word: it's something people say when they don't want you to think about what's really going on."

-Noam Chomsky, Understanding Power

thats a REPUBLICAN trick

Oops!

Great point!

But the funny thing is, it's about a BAZILLION times more likely that the Vince Foster murder BULLSHIT is true than some wide-spread 9-11 conspiracy.

Based on the numbers of participants needed to pull both off, alone.


I find this shit AMAZING! I really do. I also find it interesting that most of those who push this crap aren't identified Democrats but commonly members of some fringe party. Seems pretty suspicious to me that they spread this crap on DEMOCRATICUnderground.com.

for true-blue Democrats...

We've got a nascent tinfoiler right here :)

Good one! Fair one! You got me...Well done! :)

:)

...and I mean ****REALLY**** thinks it, is a KOOK of epic proportions!

Of course I don't think you or anyone here ****REALLY**** thinks it was a conspiracy. For no other reason than I don't want to live in a world with people like that. It would be too scary.

that the US ended imperialism! LOL!

And I'm glad you're keeping up with my words of wisdom...Hopefully one day you'll learn from them. :)

(And in case you missed it, we defeated Japan in World War II).

LOL!

There were also our allies France and Britain, Belgium, Portugal, the Netherlands, and the Soviet Union, and even the US still had control of the Philippines, Guam, and Puerto Rico, which it had won in an unabashedly imperialistic war against Spain. Now we are waging an imperialistic war against Afghanistan, and, especially, Iraq, to control that country's oil.

(snip)
Los Angeles Independent Media Center

Original article is at http://la.indymedia.org/news/2002/11/22725.php
basic stats for US imperialism
by cecil • Sunday November 24, 2002 Sunt 04:18 PM

a reference guide for activists.
Basic Statistics for United States Imperialism
Contents:
1—list of interventions for “regime change”
2—list of air warfare campaigns
3—list of client states
4—list of states held by debt-leverage imperialism
5—list of foreign base hosts
6—list of murder toll
7—list of unsavory rightists supported
8—list of perverted international bodies
(snip)

of creationism.And dont forget all his guns!

of creationism.And dont forget all his guns! He says he needs them for protection,even though he goes on to brag about killing ducks (which,as we all know,are secretly the biggest killers of men around).

I'm betting his nic contains two lies.

is a moron of epic proportions.

I hope you are just being ironic. :-)

Quite obviously, 9-11 was a conspiracy. There were four airplanes hijacked. Quite clearly, unless you believe in the supernatural, it took more than one person to accomplish this. By definition, a plot requiring a minimum of 4 actors (there actually seems to have been more like dozens, including as many as 19 hijackers on the airplanes), is a conspiracy.

The only question is exactly who was involved in the conspiracy and how high up did it go. I think there is good evidence that Osama bin Laden provided cash, training, and people. He has said for years that he would come back and take out the World Trade Center after the first attack failed to take out the buildings. There comes a time when we have to believe if someone keeps threatening to commit a crime, and the crime is committed, then it is likely that this person followed through on their threat.

My feeling about Bush is that he "let it happen" through incompetence and wishful thinking. He is in bed with the bin Ladens financially. Therefore, he closed to his eyes to the evidence provided by Clinton and the assistance offered for pursuing Osama. Further, he actually obstructed FBI investigations into other bin Laden family members who (we now know) were likely involved in the attacks. This is the explicit given why John O'Neill resigned from the FBI counter-terrorism unit in disgust...because Bush was obstructing his counter-terrorism efforts. Some others believe that Bush "let it happen" for a profit, which may be the case, but I think we can prove the incompetence case with very little effort just through plain common sense while it will be tougher to get the evidence of criminal wrong-doing. But I would not exactly fall apart in tears, devastated in horror at the nastiness of human nature, if evidence DID emerge that Bush, Cheney, etc. engineered this...I just feel we need more proof and the tinfoilhatters, if you will, are doing an important job in demanding proof.

If everyone on our side is calm and reasonable, and everyone on their side just gets more and more extreme, we keep getting yanked further and further to the right. We need a few wild-eyed speculators in our camp also. We shouldn't close ANY doors. All facts are not yet in.

topic

.....I love Noam. Now, I had to view as "suspect" a link a friend sent me explaining how the CIA was making jets produce poisonous contrails in the sky which would, by 05, reduce teh earth's population by 80% (or some such nonsense)......THAT I have to view with a cocked brow to say the least.
To say, out of hand, that 9-11 couldn't have POSSIBLY been the work of the government and to suggest it bears scrutiny is a "conspiracy theory" sounds like there's something to hide. Remember Georgie Boy was still butt deep in the election brouhaha in August 01 and facing opposition to just about everything. He was slipping. Suddenly, a couple skyscrapers and a few thousand civilian deaths later and PNAC is full throttle with not a peep of opposition.
Remember the further we get from the actual event the more folks want to shout "Get over it" and move on with the next bombing campaign. However, the flap over the yellowcake lies and the wee amount of heat currently on this bunch of thugs makes me fear for what they have up their sleeves to "redirect" our attention THIS time.

A great linguist.

A really fucking oversimplistic political theorist.

He should stick to his calling.

presented one scintilla of proof and/or evidence to the citizens of the United States that it was Osama bin Laden that masterminded the attacks on September 11, 2001.

IIRC, Powell promised shortly after September 11 "white papers" that would prove it. Has anyone seen those "white papers"?

I would be embarrassed to admit I trust an idiot, when said idiot has fucking lied time and time again and HAS NOT PRESENTED ANY FUCKING PROOF OF SAID LIES!

a lot of us figured out you believe Bush on many things when you started posting here.

I don't know if it was Osama himself that planned it but it was a Islamic terrorist group. The FBI screwed up and didn't stop something they could have, but that doesn't make it a goeverment plot.

Let's review the evidence

- Flight training
- Images of the terrorists boarding the planes
- Phone calls from scared passengers

Let's review your evidence

- Bush is a liar so it wasn't Osama.

Sorry but that just doesn't cut it.

and i don't believe a word they say. it's o.k. to disagree, and lets' both admit, either one of us could be wrong or right, but for someone to say that they alone have the absolute truth, and all other theorys are nonsense, is arrogant

I'm stating that having seen the evidence I believe that a Islamic Fundamentalist group was responsible.

There is a about a 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance that I am wrong, and about a 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance that you are right.

There, I'm not arrogant anymore. Happy??

You're still arrogant.

But that just draws the wrath of the faithful. Whats that smell?
More than a whiff I think. If nothing else, you allow the "others"
to identify themselves clearly. The smug name calling, the ridiculous adherence to a conspiring liar's claims, the obvious POV that is more common to other websites. These (Bushco)lying murderers ALWAYS lie, any amount of truth could trip them up, so it never crosses their lips. That includes their cowhorets, the corporate/commercial news media. To state otherwise simply questions your cognitive abilities, or your veracity. Or from my POV, both.
Afghanistan was justified? Which oil company do you work for?

Those islamic men who were photographed going through airport security (AND the ones who were identified by passengers on the planes) we just PASSENGERS who happened to be in the wrong places at the wrong times.

Yes, I've seen people on this forum making that argument.

Sigh......

1) Flight training-- yeah, train on a cessna to fly a 727. Uh huh. One of the flight instructors has even said that one of the supposed "pilots" was the lousiest student in his class.

2) Images of terrorists boarding planes-- Where did you see these "images". Did they show the actual faces of the "hijackers", or were they just the usual grainy blurbs. And if they actually did board the planes, why aren't their names on the passenger manifolds? And why has the BBC come out as saying that several of these supposed hijackers ARE STILL ALIVE?

3) Phone calls from scared passengers-- Did any of them actually mention "Arab terrorists"? Please post a link to you information if you have it.

By the way, at least one of those "phone calls" has been proved to be a hoax-- the call that was supposedly made by Barbara Olsen to her husband, which couldn't have been made as described because of the logistics involved with using the airplane telephones.

...Just wake up man. Do the math. How many people would need to be involved for 9-11 to be some kind of conspiracy.

I can't believe this is even being discussed here...I REALLY can't.

i can't prove my theory, you can't disprove it, so we debate the issue. you seem to suggest that we shouldn't even BE discussing it.

1- It's an interesting discussion that there is nothing wrong with having.

2- The number of people that would be involved in a conspiracy this size would make it impossible to keep secret. Greed or guilt would have done them in by now.

...And a bit fun too. But then again, I really enjoy a good monster story or alien invasion movie.

http://www.mayanmajix.com/art187.html
(snip)
A Nation That Closes Its Eyes Is Sure To Stumble Sometime

By James Depreist
The Portland Tribune

Tuesday 08 July 2003

On June 14, James DePreist, long the conductor of the Oregon Symphony Orchestra, delivered the commencement address for the graduating class of Portland State University. His speech, slightly condensed, appears below.

Graduates, the world in which we live is a mess. Myth masquerading as truth, our beloved United States in crisis, many of its fundamental principles under assault.

And yet a goodly number of your fellow Americans seem oblivious ... sleepwalking through these alarming times, heedless and gullible beyond belief. Our country simply cannot afford this, and our hard-won freedoms cannot long bear the weight of an unenlightened citizenry. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the unspeakable horror of Sept. 11 or the very real menace of world terrorism. History has clearly shown that the ultimate weapon of mass destruction for any society is ignorance.

(snip)
Truth Files section - Last Updated July 10, 2003
http://www.mayanmajix.com/art_tf.html

ANY rational person will admit that. But feel free to do whatever you like...I'll be here to defend the collective sanity of this fine message board where this issue is concerned.

As for "Proof"...As you know, the burden is apon you to "Prove" your whacky claims...Not the other way around. Or, do you think it's fair of me to ask you to PROVE that Santa Clause does not exist? I assume you claim he doesn't??

shameful

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

...I'm BASHING it.

Ever heard of Operation Northwoods?

Here check this out:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html

Now, if our government was capable of thinking this crap up in the sixties what makes you so sure that they would never implement or facilitate a similar plan?

http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf

Read the above if you have not already before attacking people for not trusting every word out the government's piehole.

"Attacking" ANYONE for "Not trusting every word out of the government's piehole".

But you knew that, didn't you??

"It's foolish and embarrassing to be discussing it. Any rational person will admit that" You are essentially saying that anyone who believes that there NEEDS to be a discussion, that there are glaring holes in the explanations given to us, that the government HAS lied to us (case in point Niger documents) is IRRATIONAL.

You are attacking the people presenting the argument rather than the argument itself by claiming that people who are discussing the possibility that the government is, at the very least, responsible if not complicit in 911 are "irrational".

I am attacking ANY kook who makes posts like this one. Posts that make us all look bad and take away from REAL issue like the Idiot in Chief (Or his administration) lying about nuclear components.

"Discussion" is another issue. I'm all for "Discussion". Like I said in another post here...I LOVE ghost, monster and alien stories. Why wouldn't I like this story?

the official story came out only hours after the attacks, with a complete poster of faces and names of the hijackers and osama was named the culprit, officially. then bush swore he'd get him, dead or alive, THEN.............he became irrelevant and is never mentioned.

EXPLAIN THIS ONE POINT ONLY IF YOU WILL:
...if it really was osama, why have they given up looking for him years ago? if it really was osama, why aren't we all out looking for his ass, and speaking his dirty name on t.v. all day? you rarely hear the name osama, and you never hear it from the president.

WHY do you buy the official george w. bush official version?

You say "We've given-up looking for him"???


No offense, but that's a bit "Kooky".

We haven't given-up looking for him. Why we haven't gotten him yet? I don't know. I do know I trust the people who are looking for him. These are men of MAJOR honor. Men who do things that we don't even see in movies. Men who are, as we waste time on this kooky subject, crawling around in caves and walking around in shit-hole villages looking for him.

They WILL find him...I have NO doubt. And for all I know, they already have him and are keeping it under wraps until we get all the information out of him possible. Or, maybe he's already dead...Who knows??

I don't like George W. Bush. He's a repuke and I don't like repukes. But I LOVE the men in our military. And especially the "Special Forces". These are some fuckng STUDS! Have you ever met one of these guys? I've met a couple of Army Rangers and these "Special Forces" men make the GIANTS amongst men that I met look like little school girls. No disrespect intended towards the Army Rangers, but "Delta Force" is the best of the best of the best of the best. Just short of "Supermen".

I TRUST THEM. And one thing that the Idiot in Cheif said that I believe is that we (You, me and the rest of the general population) will NEVER know what these men have done. We won't see it in the news and we won't read about it in books. Not for about 50 years anyway.

So, to answer your question, and at the same time further my charge that you're spewing kooky crap with this "9-11 was a conspiracy" charge, I'll add you're now spewing more kooky crap with this "We've stoped looking for him" charge.

As for not talking about him...I don't know why that is. I assume it's because we haven't gotten him yet. And no one, even the Idiot in Cheif, wants to talk about accomplishments yet to be acheived.

There...I asnwered your one question. Thanks for the opportunity to further prove my original point.

Somebody has a serious case of the vapors over the Delta Force studs. :loveya:

...If that's the word you want to use.

These are the men who are out living in SHIT knowing they can die at any minute while protecting me and YOU!

These are GIANTS amongst men...Men who are the subjects of legends. Men who defy description.

Anyone who has done any reading on the subject and appreciates ANYTHING about this country would feel the same way. Anyone who hates this country would make fun of those who feel the same way.

and they goddamn sure aren't protecting my "freedoms".

What a simplistic joke

...that's fine.

But I pitty people like you.

Repeal the patriot act.

Killing innocent Iraqi's or giving them a "regime change" does absolutely shit for my "security".

Pity? Right back at you, pard.

the dedication, capability, and erm... studliness of our servicemen with the actions of the Commander in Chief, at whose pleasure they serve. Howling about honor slurred because some of us think Dubya isn't looking for Osama is waaay off the mark. These guys can only pursue missions he sets for them and if they happen to be pointless bumblefucks, it ain't their fault. You're aware of the airlift of undocumented passengers to Pakistan before the assault on Tora Bora, aren't you? The guys on the ground were flummoxed and pissed about that, but orders came from above, what could they do?

And no, lampooning your zealous appreciation of our Armed Forces isn't a sign of Hatred of America. Geez, you can do better than that.

From weapons of mass destruction? What weapons of mass destruction?

Sorry, I don't mean to diminish the professionalism of special forces units, but neither am I interested in going along with this delusion from which so many Americans seem to suffer that the entire world is about to invade us at any second and the only thing standing between "us" and "them" are big guys with guns. That's just patently absurd. Militarism is not the only defense, indeed, I would argue it's not even one of the more effective tools for achieving national security. Was Delta Force able to defend the world trade center? Conversely, Canada has virtually no standing military, yet when was the last time anyone attacked them? As far as I'm aware, no one's ever attacked them, and why would they? They've never given anyone cause to want to attack them. You want to talk about keeping us snug and secure in our beds? Why don't we talk about re-orienting our foreign policies in such a way as to stop antagonizing half the planet into wanting to launch attacks against us, from which neither Delta Force nor any other military body can ever totally protect us?

Hilarious -- YOU want to be the posterboy for "collective sanity"!

Just out of curiosity, ever hear of Operation Northwoods? Give it a Google and take a look at the declassified documents....you might find that "rationality" you prize so highly isn't wide enough to encompass the entire truth.

was able to shut down the US Air Force while his minions hijacked planes for TWO HOURS or more??? What would it take for THAT kind of CONSPIRACY to be pulled off as apparently effortlessly as it was? This was something that Osama had never done before-- 4 simultaneous hijackings on American turf (all his other stints were pulled off in his home turf or in 3rd World countries with large Islamic populations).

And all the while, the "President" was sitting in a second grade classroom, listening intently to a reading lesson, even after being told of the second attack (and after supposedly watching the first attack "live" on TV!)

Why do you keep bringing up the airforce there was Nothing that called for airforce after the 1st plane and the 3rd over Pa was probably shot down

To say that it was probably shot down and the govt is lying about it would make you a whacky, tinfoil, conspiracy looney.

They still had fighter jets in the air by that time

crashed in Pennsylvania but the government denies there were any military jets in the area. The government story is that no fighter jets got near any of the hijacked planes in time to take any action.

It's a huge coincidence that four commercial passenger jets were hijacked on an ordinary day and absolutely no defensive military action was taken, even though some planes were in the air for an hour or more after the first plane was flown deliberately into the WTC.

His private plane goes off course and the airforce has jets scrambled in four minutes, but four passenger planes disappear from radar and eventually crash into the WTC and no planes are sent?

If they lied about other stuff then they might be lying about 9-11 (certainly not all) but important aspects...
Many people have read the stuff on this site

http://feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney/ghost_riders_1-4_1.html

While I don't buy a lot of it--there are some serious questions raised by the fellow's thesis

And I don't think it helps matters with the 911 Commission being denied extensive access, most are ex-airlines people and have to produce a report under an arbitrary timeline...

You should ask questions as well
Maybe this :tinfoilhat:
or maybe this :think:

If it were anyone else, Id be surprised you asked the question. Takes a LOT of math (or knowledge of the English language) to derive "two"
It takes two. Whether Bush and Osama were the key "two", and quite likely, they were, it takes two. Got it yet? Next question.

where are they on the manifests? NOWHERE! What evidence?
Bush and Osama are linkable, but Saddam and Osama are not. Now what would Bush (and you?)have us believe?

ALL pilots I have ever read have stated there was no way the bogus flight training would have prepared them for those flights. There was one picture of Atta boarding a plane. What does that have to do with what happened????? The phone calss were mostly bogus and experts have said they couldn't have been made. Do you believe everything your TV tells you?????

This link, Any way here it is
Here's something you might want to read:
http://standdown.net/

We have one image of two people the FBI claims were terrorists in an airport. That's it.

Have you heard a tape of any of these phone calls?

Let's face it, the evidence is coming from the same geniuses who ignored all the evidence beforehand. Why should they be believed now?

believe them all the time anyways.

that the "terrorists" received flight training? (Sure, Arab men have taken flight training in the U.S. But how do you know that any Arab man named as a terrorist really is one?)

Where did you see images of the "terrorists" boarding the planes? How do you know these men were the terrorists?

Who told you passengers made phone calls from the doomed flights? Did you hear any of the phone calls?

And by the way, the ONLY person who called from a doomed plane and said the hijackers were Arab or Middle Eastern men was. . . Barbara Olsen, right wing hatemonger whom Ann Coulter styles herself after. Who did she tell this to? According to CNN, Barbara Olsen called her husband, Ted Olsen, who argued for Bush* in Bush v. Gore before SCOTUS and was rewarded by being named Solicitor General. Barbara and Ted were deeply involved in "Get Clinton" activities such as Project Arkansas and he's a member of the right wing Federalist Society (like Scalia, Thomas, Bork.) And Barbara was the ONLY person with the presence of mind to tell anyone anything about the hijackers? Not one of the several flight attendants who made phone calls gave info on the hijackers. Kind of odd, don't you think?

They certainly identified the terrorists quickly, didn't they? Found that miraculously preserved passport near the WTC, the Koran and flight manuals in a rental car, Atta's will in his suitcase that didn't get put on the plane with him. Think about any of those and you should have some questions to ask.

Think about military fighter jets not being scrambled in time to reach any of four hijacked passenger jets. How much time elapsed between the time the first plane hit the WTC and the time the whole thing ended -- how much time were hijacked planes in the air with no fighter jets taking action?

and like you I'm not shutting up about it. :evilgrin:

had to learn the haed way. Sure Mo may be wrong, but we have been taught, over the passed two and half years, to be doubtful and keep an open mind. Now, I know that many Democrats don't like that "open mind" thing, but to simply accept the aggreed upon explanation of things and then "move on, nothing to see here" sort of response seems to be a "enablers" attitude. There is no reason for anyone to become irate at the suggestion that we don't know the truth about 9/11, because we don't - the Bush admin. has prevented or short-circuited and investigation. The very fact that the republicans do not want it investigated would cause most rational people to be suspicious of their motives. For "Democrats" to try and shout down this type of speculation is an interesting development.

if the government is innocent and has nothing to hide - WHY have the underfunded and repeatedly delayed the investigation??? Why were telephone threats made to Sen. Daschle re the 9/11 investigation - calls from Bush & Cheney??? Again, if they were innocent, there would be nothing to hide. Remember the evidence against bin laden was given ONLY to Tony Blair - the rest of the world (and us) have never seen it. And what about the pre-911 PUT stock options that led back to the Caryle Group (Bush I) and Buzzy Kongrad (the 3rd highest level of the CIA). Can you explain that?

Here's something you might want to read:

http://standdown.net/

That is a real keeper, I am going to have to buy a new hard drive if this keeps up :kick:

The only people who believe that lie are those who NEED to believe it for whatever reasons. Sometimes the truth is TOO mind-boggling, too horrible to accept but the truth nonetheless it is.

9-11 was nothing more than our Reichstag.

We were complicit in it. What's 3000 American lives when there's a world of riches to be carved up?

The planners/executors of 9-11 placed no more value on the lives of those 3000 people than they do on the lives of the soldiers sacrificed in Afghanistan and Iraq or on the lives of the poor of this country.

This whole thing was a LIE from the beginning and it STUNK from the beginning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=7344&mesg_id=7344&page=

Read it and GLOAT!

Where's McKinney? Cynthia, you can come out now! You're gonna have plenty of company now girl-friend :)

I beleive that Bin Laden was used by bu$hco/PNAC. You notice nobody has caught him yet? Why? He is being hidden and protected by the forces that rule. Why hasnt bu$h investigated the attack thourouhly? Why is Osama's name rarely mentioned anymore?
Bu$h and his cronies had much to gain by the attack on WTC. Did Osama?

Osama had an axe to grind with the western world/USA. These hyenas knew this and allowed, if not assisted Bin Laden in the orchestration of the 911 attack.
:tinfoilhat: Just my feelings.

I don't believe it because Bush said so. I believe it because Clinton said so and spent years making sure that Osama's attacks on U.S. soil did not succeed once the first attempt was made on the WTC. The terrorists involved in the first attack were captured, they were put on public trial, and their stories were told. Additionally, Clinton spent a great deal of time and energy keeping Osama on the run, over Republican opposition and cries of "wag the dog."

BUsh would not have acknowledged that Osama bin Laden was involved in the attacks if he wasn't forced to by the preponderance of evidence. The Bush family does business with the Bin Ladens -- this is why Bush had relaxed surveillance on other Bin Laden family members in the first place and why he assisted in getting these family members out of the country after the 9-11 attacks.

If the facts pointed ANYWHERE else, Bush would not have blamed Osama bin Laden because it hits too close to his pocketbook.

Videotaped confessions are, of course, nonsense. Video and audio can always be faked, and claims and counterclaims be thrown around.

But, at some point, you have to believe some one or to put together the facts that make sense in context. I believe Clinton because he was willing to put the first WTC bombers on public trial...he was willing to go out on a limb and plan a manhunt years in advance, when it was quite unpopular to do so. His thoughts on terrorism seem to have stood the test of time.

Just my opinion...you may wish to get your own.

In my opinion, there's no such thing as an Al-Qaeda..there are loose groups of terrorists who sometimes collaborate with each other. Osama is the leader of one or more of such groups.

It was easy to blame one group and one leader (Osama) than to blame WTC destruction on several loosely defined groups/individuals. After all, its easier to blame one individual/group than many peole/groups.

So Osama is probably connected to this event (911) and he has taken full advantage of this to generate publicity. However, by not looking at the whole picture, we are putting ourselves open to other attacks from other groups.

Seriously, Dumbya's war on terrorism is a big failure.

They are -still- BULLSHIT.

The issues are UTTERLY different.

Bush lied about intelligence info. Guess what? The spooks LEAKED that to the media. Eventually there is a major upheaval over a single false statement.

Bush used CIA, military, FBI to kill 3000 Americans and there is no peep from anyone? Nary a leak? No incriminating documents posted to the internet, or mailed to the world's news media?

Right! Exactly! I see now!

I've still got this ocean-front property in W. KY I want to sell. Looks like I still have a whole crew of prospective buyers.

1) NON CONSPIRACY THEORY STORY:
That a guy with a dirty laptop in a cave in Afghanistan co-ordinated an operation that logistically would require HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of members in concert in synchonized support, all third world educated, all religious extremists,all moving MILLIONS of dollars throughout the world in and out of UNited States financial institutions, to defeat the largest , best , most well trained military and intelligence networks in history together with defeating the airline security which was pre-programmed to be suspicious of Middle Eastern men, yet they ALL GOT THROUGH WITH WEAPONS JUST THIS ONCE and met with no resistance from the flight crews, just this once. AND even though these uneducated 'almost washouts " at flight school trained on Cessenas, were able to expertly navigate and fly "heavy" Jets to precise locations inside restricted airspace without crashing

And that they accomplished this with NO LEAKS to ANYONE?And caught no ones attention until after the fact?

2) CONSPIRACY THEORY

Or that they had some help?

:nuke: