I finally agree with Dennis Kucinich. We need to get the troops out now.

Back in the primaries, I agreed with the line of Clark that we had to have a strategy for success. Right now, a successful strategy would be to get the troops out as fast as possible before more people die. There is no good political resolution to the Iraq war. Establishing a pro US "Democracy" that the Arab world doesn't want is pure fantasy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/17/opinion/17herbert.html?hp

What we need to end this, is to have people just like John Kerry to come back from Iraq and speak out against the war.

"Supporting our troops" is just code language for supporting the President's disastrous policies. We need to reclaim the true meaning of what it means to support them. Needlessly getting them killed is not support.

My apologies to Mr. Kucinich.

Sorry for the sarcasm but I worked my arse off trying to prevent the invasion. I don't know how old you are but we saw the same sh*t in Vietnam....we never learn from our mistakes......we continue to make them....and the kids die because of it.

I'm as responsible for it as any voting U.S. Citizen.

During the primary season I was still against it but I didn't think we could "just pull out". Now, I think we should. I see no positive outcome of staying, only more death.

workable solution, but that it will be politically impossible to just get out. It's just like it's being easier to walk into quicksand than it is to pull ones self out.

I just hate that this fucked up mess is going to be dumped into the lap of a Democratic president, and he is probably going to end up getting the blame for this disaster.

Oh, and I'm very proud and happy to have voted for Kucinich in our state's caucus. Wes Clark wasn't a choice here.

Turn Iraq over to a coalition of Arab countries. The US and UK provide financial support (gotta pay for what you break), and everyone provides any other support that the Arab coalition asks for. Otherwise, we keep our noses out of what isn't our business.

what arab countries?

egypt? that's about it as far as acceptable arab nationalities (to both the US & iraqis) go, i think.

syria? no way
saudis? no way

yemen? iran? kuwait?

now i'm just making jokes.

EVERYTHING is POSSIBLE and pulling our troops OUT would be very PRACTICAL but that would require political WILL and with PEAK OIL looming and our educational retardation there is NONE on both sides = wwIII :scared:

peace

So we invaded and occupied and largely destroyed the country, and killed thousands of people in the process,
for NO good reason at all, and THAT is the reason why we have to stay? Because we are there, for no good reason at all?

We need to stay so we can show the poor dumb Iraqis how to build a civilization along the Tigris and the Euphrates Rivers?

We need to stay so Bush can teach them all about democracy, at gunpoint? So he can loan them Karl Rove, and brother Jeb,
and the Supremes, so they can have real elections?

We need to stay so Haliburton can have a no-bid contract to teach them about the free market system?

If we stay, I'm sure the Iraqis will be suitably grateful, and they will express their gratitude for generations to come...

Leaving is very easy. NOT leaving is criminal lunacy.

My point is that it is highly unlikely that we will anytime soon. I don't believe that Kerry is willing to try. It would be too politically costly to him, plus, I think he is working under the assumption that this thing is winnable with more effective leadership.

I don't agree with that assessment. I keep hearing that things would be alright if only we had gone in properly prepared, with a real international coalition, with sufficient troop strength, and with good postwar planning.

I don't think that's the case. First, we could not have built a real international consensus, hence real coalition in the first place, because there was no legitimate reason for invading. Better diplomacy would not have changed that fact.

Because the invasion was illegitimate, the Iraqi people would never have accepted it. This is what makes it different from the situation with Germany and Japan after WWII. Things probably would have seemed to go smoother at first, but I believe an insurgency was always going to develop at some point.

So we are stuck in a situation in which we can't win, but none of our possible political leaders will feel that they can just get out. If Kerry cuts and runs, he will just be called weak, and he will not allow that. Then there is the regional destabilization that would happen with a pull out. All Iraq's neighbors would want a peice of it if we got out. That is another reason that Kerry won't pull out.

Hence my claim that we are in an impossible and insoluble situation that, unfortunately, is going to be dumped in Kerry's lap.

He is going to find himself in the unenviable position of standing in the same shoes Nixon was wearing back when Kerry was protesting the Vietnam war.

Just to make myself perfectly clear, I'm not saying that we shouldn't get out. Just that we probably won't get out because it will not be politically feasible, unfortunately.

and WELCOME!!! You did my heart good and it needs it! :toast:

legislator in our government.

Since his judgement, observations and recommendations have been consistently correct on so many issues, it seems to me that DK would serve our country well is some type of cabinet or high level advisory post in the Kerry administration.

If folks had been listening to and following DK's advice all along, this Iraq mess would never have happened, a whole lot of blood would not have been spilled, and our country might not have the largest deficit in its history.

That was some seriously good advice from DK.

His "plan" is a "not as bad" echo of the BushCorp "plan". Though I think that Bush's real "plan" is for an even more extensive war throughout the middle east and, after the election, a far more heavy handed approach to Iraq.

I was one of those who went from Kucinich to Dean in the primaries but, damn, Kucinich is a good man. If Kerry should get elected, which I think very chancy given his timidity to speak out about Iraq, I would love to see him appoint DK Secretary of State. But, I think that would be about as likely as him appointing Al Sharpton Secretary of Defense.

"Too Liberal" dontcha know.

I was a DK CO STate delegate....how many times I heard that! Why do people keep believing the governments Bushit?

for Kucinich as well. At least we can be proud that we got him 30% at the convention, and sent him a larger contingent of delegates than any other state.

I hope that his voice and his values will become more influential in the Democratic party as a whole.

our voting system security is zip in both strongholds.
Kucinich had far too much support and recognition in progressive/liberal communities to escape with nothing.

http://vote2004.ss.ca.gov/

these results reflect a time when the prowar/occupation stance of Kerry was being debated, after he had achieved considerable momentum, and progressives were encouraged to support Kucinich to influence the platform. California is filled with people who would do just that, NOT landslide for Kerry who promised little change but the name.
NOT people who would give a Hollywood blowjob to the Terminator. Only the voting results say different. Absolutely fraudulent results are the order of the day, and they gladly used the technology to abbreviate Kucinich.

http://vote2003.ss.ca.gov/Returns/gov/00.htm
these Total Recall results are simply unbelievable, and this is how we got Arnold.
You cant trust the process or the results. We need to fix that.

become. Really *LISTENING* to Dennis, and Mike Miles, means facing some heavy-duty grief about our country, and what it's going to take to reclaim it.

To put it bluntly, we lack the courage.

:(

Kanary

...and voted for him in the Illinois primary. I still agree with him and am happy that you have joined the club.

He is right and has always been right IMO. This is not going to get better as long as we are there. I am certain there is a way to do it but the outcome will not be good either way. We have caused too much distruction and disrupted them too much for it to settle down easily. Kucinich was always right, I was proud to be a delegate for him in our state caucus.

He is always on the side of the people and has no fear when it comes to telling it like it is.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/occupation/2004/0911withdrawal.htm

(a convincing argument)

Time to Consider Iraq Withdrawal

Financial Times
September 11, 2004

This week a macabre milestone was passed in Iraq. More than 1,000 American soldiers have now been killed since the US-led invasion of the country began nearly 18 months ago. The overwhelming majority lost their lives after President George W. Bush declared major combat operations over in his now infamous "Mission Accomplished" photo-opportunity in May last year.

In that time, an unknown number of mostly civilian Iraqis, certainly not less than 10,000 and possibly three times that number, have perished, and hundreds more are dying each week. After an invasion and occupation that promised them freedom, Iraqis have seen their security evaporate, their state smashed and their country fragment into a lawless archipelago ruled by militias, bandits and kidnappers.

The transitional political process, designed to lead to constituent assembly and general elections next year, has been undermined because the nervous US-dominated occupation authority has insisted on hand-picking various permutations of interim Iraqi governors, mostly exiles or expatriates with no standing among their people. Whatever Iraqis thought about the Americans on their way in - and it was never what these emigré politicians told Washington they would be thinking - an overwhelming majority now views US forces as occupiers rather than liberators and wants them out.

The aftermath of a war won so quickly has been so utterly bungled, moreover, that the US is down to the last vestiges of its always exiguous allied support, at the time when Iraq needs every bit of help it can get. The occupation has lost control of big swathes of the country. Having decided that all those who lived and worked in Iraq under Saddam Hussein bore some degree of collective guilt, Washington's viceroys purged the country's armed forces, civil service and institutions to a degree that broke the back of the state, marginalised internal political forces, sidelined many with the skills to rebuild Iraq's services and utilities and, of course, fuelled an insurgency US forces have yet to identify accurately, let alone get to grips with.

..more..

http://www.iht.com/articles/530608.html

Regardless of the number of troops the United States puts on the ground or how long they stay there, Allawi's government is doomed to fail. The more it fails, the more it will have to rely on the United States to prop it up. The more the United States props up Allawi, the more discredited he will become in the eyes of the Iraqi people - all of which creates yet more opportunities for the Iraqi resistance to exploit.

We will suffer a decade-long nightmare that will lead to the deaths of thousands more Americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis. We will witness the creation of a viable and dangerous anti-American movement in Iraq that will one day watch as American troops unilaterally withdraw from Iraq every bit as ignominiously as Israel did from Lebanon.

The calculus is quite simple: the sooner we bring our forces home, the weaker this movement will be. And, of course, the obverse is true: the longer we stay, the stronger and more enduring this byproduct of Bush's elective war on Iraq will be.

There is no elegant solution to our Iraqi debacle. It is no longer a question of winning but rather of mitigating defeat.

vote for Dennis in the caucus. I knew he did not have a chance--not enough money etc. but I cast my vote for this brave and honest man along with eight others--one a young person that I admired very much.

He was not "electable".

We are now engaged in a debate over who the best war president will be. Shame really.

Dennis was right all along and continues to be right, and Dean is a close second.

Thank you for your kind words. Welcome back to the left.

a proud Kucinich supporter/voter.

I take some comfort in knowing that Dennis is not going away. He'll still be working to bring them home from whatever position he finds himself in. I hope for Speaker of the House.

and that campaign should tell us something about what his capabilities are. I hope he learned something from it. Unfortunately, he is getting old now.....

But I do know Dennis was right and still is right and I'm proud that I voted for him.

Glad to see familydoctor has seen that DK is right. Eventually, everyone should see that DK was right and we have to bring our troops home. It's Viet Nam deja vu.

2 lies and two incongruities later.
The voice of the people was stolen from you with ABB and LCD politicing. Kucinich was on the mark, an honest representative speaking the language of truth and peace. A chorus of laughter from war supporting Democrats kept his Department of Peace from being shown the respect and reverance it deserved in the days of troops dying by the dozen. What heartless, soulless decisions were made by those in and out of power, when they chose to disregard (or worse), Dennis Kucinich.

DK is DEAD ON in his beliefs, policies, etc. However, that fucking campaign he ran was a PIECE OF SHIT!!

You know it. I know it. WTF was he doing traveling to a yogic flying center with a fucking NYTimes reporter in the van with him? What kind of political moron does that?! Huh?

DK fucked us over by running a HUBRISTIC, narcissistic campaign.
Showing off how different he was. Well, good for him. But it just gives the corporate media that much a better shot at marginalizing him and The Left.

Some will never come back again, which is a great relief to the DLC.

But, as Dennis is being proven right, some DK people are speaking up more. Ridiculous attacks on him aren't going to fly now like they did in the past.

It's hilarious to me that the very people who keep posting about "uniting to win the election" are some of the most vocal in their mean-spirited attacks on Dennis.

:thumbsdown:

Kanary

I want the same kind of govt DK wants. And that you want. But we aint gonna get unless we use our heads.

Instead of driving to the yogic meditation center with that NYTimes reporter, DK should have gone to the local union hall.

See, it's called "strategy."

DK was just all about attracting the votes of a certain very very small minority of the primary voters. THanks, but no thanks.

"Strategy" that alienates your best bet to overturn the current misadministration is very clever.

Not.

Kanary

one of us is fairly out of touch here. I'll go get a check up.

considering the way the media treated him, he ran an excellent campaign.

That campaign of his was like a boxer walking into the ring and standing in front of the opponent with your chin stuck out in the air. Go on! Hit me! I dare you!

it was the party masters servants who rubric'd him in. message board nabobs as well. one and the same? Kucinich is Kucinich. Did you see the incredible speech he turned out in those LOUSY OFFTIME SEVEN MINUTES THE KERRY CAMPAIGN/DLC GAVE HIM IN EXCHANGE FOR SURRENDERING his hard fought delegates? Fucks.

COURAGE AMERICA!! COURAGE!!!

He is right. We should withdraw troops now. Let the Iraq government deal with the problems. That is why they are there.