"Hot Saucing". Child abuse or effective discipline.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/Living/Hot_Saucing_Discipline_040824-1.html

The act of putting a drop of hot sauce on your kid's tongue if he or she uses bad language. Some parents say that it works. I say that its abuse and wont "teach" your kid not to cuss.
If my parents resorted to hot saucing on myself and my brothers, we'd be using those words even more, out of hatred for them.

Acceptable discipline?
Abuse?

is there any question about that?

Depends on how hot the sauce is but it is really crappy parenting no matter what.

(as a Social Worker)opinion! Good old Dial soap did it for my parents :evilgrin:

Jenn

edited to add name AND to say it is also unacceptable as a parent of former small children...:silly:

"It was... it was..."

"Yes, yes, it was...?"

"Itwasthe soap!"

"Oh! What have we done?! Sob sob!"

:evilgrin:

film this quote is from... their lives are hollow!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

Sid

Greatest holiday movie ever and that includes "It's a Wonderful Life".

x

Not just to leave a bad taste. You dont get it do ya?

You obviously don't.

Hot Sauce is a food, Soap is not!

Soap, personally would not be my #1 choice for my mouth, hot sauce would be.

If you lived in other parts of the world "hot sauce" is FOOD/condiment.

People are getting so bizzare. Pretty soon looking at your kids cross-eyed is going to be emotional abuse!

The tender little darlings won't be able to handle ANYTHING in their adult life. More anti-depressants for adult.

Just because some people enjoy the taste of hot sauce and even enjoy the pain in a controlled setting does not mean that it is ok to force someone to put a substance in thier mouth that simulates the feeling of burning.

Soap is bad enough, but at least with soap the punishment is bad taste, in this case the punishment is pain.

even though it may not always be as painful. Soap is not meant to be ingested and can and does make children sick. It's just as abusive and idiotic.

A DROP A DROP A DROP A DROP

SHOTS HURT!

LIFE HURTS!

NO PHYSICAL HARM!

PUNISH TO DETER

PEOPLE ARE RAISING KIDS TO BE MORE AND MORE FRAGILE - GETTING TO THE POINT THAT WHEN THESE FRAGILE DARLINGS BECOME ADULTS THEY WILL CRASH INTO DEPRESSION WHEN SOMEONE STICKS THEIR TONGUE OUT AT THEM.

WHEN I WAS A KID - 200 YEARS AGO- TEACHERS COULD USE CORPORAL PUNISHMENT ON STUDENTS AND TO THIS DAY I HAVE NEVER MET AN ADULT THAT SAID THAT THEY WERE EMOTIONALLY DAMAGED BY THAT.

SOCIETY BETTER LOOSEN UP A BIT.

IF YOUR CHILD HATES BROCCOLI, WOULD YOU MAKE THEM EAT IT ANYWAY?
IS IT ABUSE TO MAKE YOUR CHILD EAT SOMETHING THAT THEY DON'T LIKE?
ARE YOU ABUSING THEM THEN?

HOW ABOUT IF YOUR CHILD DOESN'T LIKE PORK CHOPS? WOULD YOU MAKE THEM EAT PORK CHOPS ANYWAY?????


IF YOU WERE MUSLIM, YOU WOULDN'T BE CAUGHT DEAD EATING PORK! IT IS UNCLEAN

Life hurts, it builds charecter, kids are getting soft.

You can come up with as many cute sayings as you want. Unless you plan to produce some semblence of evidence that children who arent intentionally hurt by thier parents are unable to handle other kinds of pain, unlessyou plan to show some evidence that having your parents hurt you gives you charecter I request you quit this line of argument as it is insulting.

Why on earth must children be hurt by thier parents? What kind of argument is that?

Not to mention that all of the actual evidence shows that using this kind of punishment is a horrible method of teaching and causes more damage than good it does.

And then you try to compare this to a bad taste.

Hot Sauce contains a chemical that does not taste hot, hot is not a taste, it tricks the nerve endings into signalling that they are under intense heat. The message sent to your brain is "your mouth is on fire" that isnt the taste of pork chops, it is pain, pure and simple. And no amount of pain is suddenly a good way for a parent to teach thier children.

You are just making excuses for bad parenting practices. Perhaps you have never had something too hot to eat, or had a drop of a hot sauce that was way over your tolerance. I have several times in my life, and every time it hurt, it hurt alot.

The stupid part is that this isnt even a good way to teach children.

So why dont you bother to prove exactly why it is people should be allowed to do this by using some facts not some folkisms?

GET IT NOW????? MADE TO BE INGESTED. FACTUAL ENOUGH FOR YOU?

In many parts of the world you would be LAUGHED off the island!

I never argued that hot sauce wasnt a food.

I explained to you that the heat in hot sauce is not a taste, it is a chemical that triggers the nerves that signal heat and cause pain.

(remember it is only a DROP) is considered abuse?

their mouths in an angry manner. You dont see the difference?

is abuse?




If your answer is YES then

what is spanking?
what is beating with a belt?
what is kicking?
what is punching?


What is next??? picking up a child and PUTTING them (against their will) on a chair for a time out?

I mean, after all, picking them up and making them do something that they don't want might be harmful to them, especially if you are a little angry at the time.

This may really be abusive.

To them its like acid. And its like spanking and whipping with a belt.

Spanking, beating, kicking and punching a child are abuse.

I assume you are exagerating and you are actually capable of understanding why a time out, or having a child do something they dont like is different than inflicting physical pain on them.

It is abuse plain and simple. The question is whether hot sauce is abuse. I simply don't equate the two. Apparently you do.

Have you no decency?! Have you no humanity at all!?

Move that coffee table, sir! I'm getting ready to swoon at your callous defense towards this infernal brand of pseudo-infanticide!

or is teasing all you have left?

Nobody here is arguing that hot sauce is some horrific torture simply that it does inflict, depending on the content and amount pain on the child, and thus should be evaluated like anything else that causes a child pain. You feel that because it is hot sauce it should have some special status.

To take hot sauce and redefine it as abuse, to me is, unjustified.

It is like outlawing spanking, soap in the mouth.... some people believe in in and some people don't. I just think that we need to allow parents the right to raise their children according to thier values, not yours.

If a Indian family used a drop of hot sauce to reprimend a child, and someone saw them and called DCFS, is it right for "hot sauce" to be considered abuse for a family that comes from a nation that uses spices heavily and doesn't consider 1 drop of hot sauce as abuse? That is what I am talking about.

Abuse needs to stay clearly defined, and doesn't need to be muddied up with this type of nonsense.

Leave it up to the parents to raise thier own kids according to their own ways, and don't try to blanket them with your values.

If you don't want to use hot sauce, fine don't. Just don't call it abuse and tell someone else that if they do they are abusing their child.

Your values are not THE values.

You are the one arguing that this particular method of inflicting pain on a child is ok while some others are not.

I am not arguing any special status, I think all methods of inflicting pain on children should be treated the same.

As far as your values argument, some people think severely beating a child is proper and ok. That doesnt mean I must leave it to them to raise thier kids according to thier own ways. Some people think killing black people is ok and have a tradition of it, that doesnt make it right or mean I should but out.

You can argue that this isnt unethical, but dont argue that I dont have a right to say it is unethical.

You are confusing facts.

beating a child is against the law PERIOD

a drop of hot sauce LEGAL

a drop of hot sauce...not enough for many MILLIONS of people that use hot sauce on their foods daily (including children)


killing black people is not equivalent to 1 drop of hot sauce

Come on, at least stay proportionate.

I am merely stating that 1 drop of hot sauce is a food, not against the law, doesn't endanger someones life, and basically is in some cultures used 3 times a day on food, while others don't hardly use it at all, meaning it is not abusive.

who has a peanut allergy? Not enough to kill or incapacitate, but enough to cause a small enough reaction that would bring on some pain and fright?

I didnt argue that killing black people was proportionate to anything, simply that your argument that something was ok just because the people doing it think it is ok has no validity whatsoever.

Beating a child is illegal, having a belt is legal. Just because you use something that is legal to hurt someone, doesnt mean hurting them is legal or ethical. (I am actually not arguing that this is illegal, just unethical)

The fact that people choose to eat hot sauce has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread. This thread is about parents who intentionally hurt thier children using hot sauce as a punishment. Nothing more.

the fact remains that inflicting pain on a child is inflicting pain on a child regardless of whether or not it involves a food product.

IS INFLICTING PHYSICAL PAIN! IT HURTS THEM, RIGHT?
Geesh!

Oh, right. In the Lounge.

THEN YES IT IS (I decided to shout too since you are). Wacko.

capsaicin is the chemical in peppers and hot suace that causes the heat. It is not just something that some people find hot. It is a chemical that causes a sensation of heat and pain when it contacts nerve receptors in human (and most animal) bodies.

Depending on the strength of the hot sauce, one drop could contain a large quantity of this chemical and potentially produce a large amount of pain. Not to mention that unless you wipe the tongue off it is going to spread throughout the mouth and throat causing a burning sensation throught the mouth and often into the sinuses.

This is the same chemical that is in pepper spray.

So ask yourself this question, would it be ok for parents to use a small amount of dilluted pepper spray to punish a child? Because in essence this is the same thing. The pain causing qualities of the chemical is why parents use it, it is a substitute for other forms of pain infliction, so yes, I think it is just as much abuse as hurting a child in any other way.

to make it more tasty?

If the parents were using hot sauce sometimes and hot dogs other times, perhaps this food excuse of yours might make some sense.

The reason this condiment was chosen was not because it is food, and ok to eat. It is because it contains a chemical that causes pain, but yes, in a sense people put pepper spray on thier food to make it tasty. They put a chemical agent that cuases pain on thier food because some people enjoy doing it and have built up a tolerance to the pain.

to be "hot". I do not equate real abuse with a drop of food that so happens to be hot.

TO ME ABUSE IS NOT EQUAL TO 1 DROP OF FOOD/HOT SAUCE PERIOD

TO YOU IT IS AND TO MANY OTHERS IT IS - TO ME IT IS NOT.

Why are you putting hot in quotation marks.

Why are you still throwing the word food in here when obviously it is just a distraction.

Why are you still saying one drop as if one drop of some hot sauces couldnt cause alot of pain, and with no evidence whatsoever that parents who do this only use one small drop.

Why are you using misleading rhetoric and spin to defend bad parenting?

We arent talking about a drop of food that happens to be hot, this is about a sauce that is used almost soley as a delivery device for a chemical that causes a painful burning sensation that some seak out. Just because some seek out this burning sensation does not mean it is ok to inflict it on children against thier will. that is a totally invalid argument and you continue to repeat it.

You will find it in the GROCERY STORE in the FOOD SECTIONS

FOOD O.K. TO BE INGESTED.

IF YOUR DELICATE LITTLE TONGUE CAN'T HANDLE IT, THEN - O.K. FINE YOU CAN'T HANDLE IT.

THE FACTS ARE PLAIN AND SIMPLE.....FOOD FOOD FOOD PEPPERS PEPPERS GROWN IN GARDENS GO TO DENNY'S HOT SAUCE ON TABLES IN TWO COLORS SOMETIMES RED OR GREEN

THOSE ARE THE FACTS HOT SAUCE IS A FOOD GET OVER IT

THIS IS PRECISELY ABOUT USING ONE DROP OF FOOD THAT SO HAPPENS TO BE HOT! (DON'T TRY TO CHANGE THE RULES MID STREAM, ONE DROP - ONE DROP - I HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT - I HAVE STUCK TO ONE DROP SO DON'T TRY TO MUDDY UP THE WATERS BY SAYING - MORE THAN....BS)

I AM NOT SPINNING, I AM STATING FACTS, YOU CANNOT DISPUTE THAT. IF YOU DO YOU ARE PLAIN WRONG. LOOK IN WEBSTERS. LOOK IN COOKBOOKS.

THERE IS NO DANGER, JUST SOMETIMES DISCOMFORT. I SAY SOMETIMES, BECAUSE A LOT OF KIDS LIKE IT! SO, DO NOT IMPOSE YOUR VALUES ONTO ME. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO USE IT THEN FINE, BUT DON'T TELL ME ALL OF THIS CRAP AND TRY TO IMPOSE YOUR THOUGHTS AND VALUES ON ME OR MY FAMILY.

Alcoholic beverages are sold in grocery stores too. It doesnt matter whether or not HOT sauce is fucking food. It causes pain to those who dont like it, or cant handle it. I know adults that would pass out or vomit if HOT sauce was forced into their mouths.

Inflicting pain on a child in such manner may not hurt them to the point of hospitalization right off, but may cause seroius psychological after effects throughout the child's and adult's life.

Look down the road a bit, my friend.

peanuts to someone that is allergic, done purposely is illegal.

Hot Sauce is not illegal.

A drop will cause discomfort to SOME/

PHYSOCLOGICAL DAMAGE down the road?????

Don't know what to say to that one, except that if 1 drop of hot sauce on the tongue causes physcological damage down the road then...well I feel really bad for that person - because real life is going to do them in.

I mean how often are we talking here???? not daily, not weekly,

I am too tired to think anymore about this.

This topic is unbelieveable! I cannot believe all of the responses to it!

A real hot button! (no pun intended) Good Night!

We're not all as emotionally resilient as you are.

Hot souce doesnt cause discomfort to some. It causes feelings of burning to ALL. Some people just elect to have those feelings. Just because some people like getting whipped doesnt make whipping an activity that will "cause discomfort to some"

The issue is not whether hot sauce is illegal, neither is peanut butter. The issue is what happens when you use a perfectly legal substance to inflict pain on someone else.

Why you continue to defend using hot sauce as a tool to hurt your children is beyond me.

I mean in the scheme of things, this is just really a joke.

People are being starved, beaten, maimed and killed daily - and here we are arguing to the end about how 1 drop of Tabasco sauce is going to emtionally scar a child into adulthood because there was intentional pain inflicted by this one drop of tabasco.

Thank God I am stronger than the destruction of 1 drop of tabasco sauce. I pride myself on inner strength and this whole issue to me is a joke. Really, a joke. When I think of the pain that we all face in out lives....well what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

and to finally really close Spare the rod, spoil the child...

where did that come from?

a rod was used to guide a flock, not to beat or harass. THAT's where it came from.

I managed to rear three wonderful girls without resorting to pain, physical or psychological intimidation, or burning their mouths with any type of "food," spice or soap. Why people think they need to bully their children to foster good discipline is beyond my comprehension.

Psalm 23

1 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. 2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. 3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; *thy rod and thy staff* they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

i've had some "hot" sauces that has as much burning sensation as ketchup. sometimes, i get jalapenos that taste like regular pickles to me (like the kind at schlotzsky's). i eat those by itself whenever i go there. it depends on what you are accustomed to.

Nobody is arguing that hot sauce isnt a food product, but hot sauce being a food product has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion. The point is that parents are using hot sauce to punish children. Clearly we arent talking about children who enjoy hot sauce.

Hot Sauce doesnt happen to be hot, it exists because it is hot, that is why it is called HOT sauce, in case you hadnt noticed. The only reason anyone uses hot sauce is to cause the burning sensation. And I dont see how you dont understand that the parents are using it for that very same quality.

Sometimes that chicken marsala is pretty shifty looking.

AND EFFECTIVE, TOO!

AND WHAT THE HELL DO MUSLIMS EATING PORK HAVE TO DO WITH THIS?

and I remember a news report that a child died when her father forced her to eat too much of it as a punishment.

I expect hot pepper sauce could do the same thing. And while certainly not all parents would get so carried away - the line that could be crossed into death is not always clear.

I think that you are not being reasonable.

I personally would not choose to use hot sauce as a form of punishment because my two-year-old son loves it. Even if a child didn't like it, it is still not abusive. If you think that is abusive, then you probably think forcing a child to try new foods or making them finish their dinner is abusive. You probably think forcing a child to do anything against their will is abusive.

Also spanking, when done properly, is not abuse. Spanking a child lightly on the bum doesn't hurt them at all. It is a way to get them to pay attention so that they can follow directions. People need to stop exaggerating. Most of us were spanked when we were kids. Do you have mental/emotional problems as an adult because of it? Do you harbor ill feelings toward your parents because of their discipline decisions when you were a young child? I imagine most of us would say no to these questions.

After all, it's not about disciplining the child by means of pain, it's just about putting food in the childs mouth, right?

but it does improve the taste if you're going to eat your children

Now you can send your toddler te message that its OK to turn condiments into weapons to inflict pain.

That's just plain nuts. Hot-saucing....another way to project one's spiritual vacuousness onto their children.

Mass Destruction"!

From the kitchen cabinet!

nt

at the "residential schools"......... these "techniques" stay with people for years and years, and effect how they function in their lives.

Is there ever any hope that we're going to be a mature culture one of these days????

Kanary

Adults who come into frequent contact with the Lil Urchins.

Logic would dictate,
before Hot Saucing the Imps, grab the Broom and
attack the odorous old reprobate Moloch lurking about your Home!!

The methods used to assimilate the Native American children was reprehensible...and that is putting it mildly! Cutting their hair, making them speak English, making them wear white man's clothing and celebrate "Christian" holidays (Lent, Easter, Christmas, etc). Chasing them down via vehicles (1920's), stealing them from their families...

The white Europeans have been decimating cultures for years! Think Manifest Destiny! Think cholera and chicken pox infested army blankets (Abe Lincoln ok'd that! When I learned that, my heart broke!). Think Trail of Tears...which my great great ever so great cousin, Andrew Jackson, implemented.

Fast forward to Nazi Germany and the Jews! The gypsies! (With the monetary support of one Prescott Bush!)

Fast forward once again to South America, Chile (Pinochet and Kissinger)...then Afghanistan, now Iraq, and soon, brought to a battle theater near you, IRAN...

Sorry...end of rant.

Jenn

as a punishment. Oh what a great culture we have.

One man, in working through his pain, was having a gagging reflex..... the astute therapist asked whether he had been gagged.... yup, three kids, 8 years old, tied to chairs and towels stuffed in their mouths.

Another man told of the humiliation of being forced to shower naked with many other kids, while the white people took their pictures. Shades of Abu Ghraibe?

It's an excellent program.. "Healing The Hurts"... part of First People TV......
http://dreamcatchers.org/fptv/index.html

I didn't know that about Lincoln....... that ruined my day. :( :( :( :cry: :( :( :(

Y'know, it wouldn't be so devastating to know all this, if we had progressed beyond this. But, knowing we are still so capable of all this, and it still is being done........ :cry:

Kanary

I have an eight year old *chili head*

The most effective way to get kids not to swear IMO is to allow them to swear in limited company and not make a big deal out of it!
(At least it works in my household)

I cannot imagine what kind of an idiot would use the "hot saucing" method, it's stupid and certainly at least borders on abuse.

I was allowed to swear as a kid but not AT anyone and not outside the house - subsequently I didn't find it all that impressive and/or cool.

We knew some people were offended by it and we were taught to respect other people - it seemed to work for my folks 4 kids anyway

I swear like a Merchant Marine. Those who have read my posts over the past 4 years can attest to the fact that those tactics don't work. The only way to cure your kids swearing, is not to swear, yourself.

Hot saucing? Can't tell if it's worse than a bar of Ivory stuck in your mouth.. (My father had some interesting discipline techniques).

It was effective in keeping me from swearing in my parents' earshot, that's for certain.... just like my cat won't jump on the kitchen counter when I'm not around (he's up there ALL of the time when I'm not home).

But then again, I think hot-saucing is no cause for outrage.

I like hot sauce myself, and hot peppers. But this seems
a bit dim. If you are into military discipline and all that,
then this seems weak, use a cane or something, develop some
real hatred, not just contempt. And if not, perhaps you need
to talk to your kids more, and listen more.

WRT the original question, I don't think this by itself will
scar anyone for life, but it's way stupid.

She used to play Blair on The Facts of Life.

She's a right-wing Maximum Jeezer who manages to get into the press every few years for one bone-headed remark or another. The last time, it was about The Hellbound Abomination of Godless Gays, or God Wants Us To Spank Our Children Silly, or some such.

There is an over-the-counter product called Thum which has been used to "discourage" thumb-sucking. It used to be made out of horrible-tasting phenolphthalein in adhesive liquid; phenolphthalein causes cancer, so now, it's oleoresin capsicum in adhesive liquid. "OC" is the active ingredient in red peppers and in chemical mace self-defense spray, and is five times as hot as Habañero peppers (1,000,000 Scofields vs 200,000 Scofields).

So why should you "hot sauce" your children when a doctor-approved method of chemical punishment is available?

This is culture war stuff.

--bkl

He loves mexican food, salsa, and curry - the hotter the better!

He's kinda wierd, like his dad.

like many think of ketchup. The people that probably are most mortified by this are the people that can't handle "hot" "spicey" foods. It is all in what you are used to and what you are exposed to as you grow up.

Go to the ME or Mexico....children there are so much more used to spicey foods than many of the children in this country.

I know of 3 yr olds that like hot sauce.

So, the question about a drop of hot sauce is a joke when you put it into perspective that #1 it is a food, #2 people around the world use it daily

Now soap??? Not a food, can actually make you SICK. So - go figure.

So do the parents resort to another form of pain infliction?

of punishment as abuse, how could it be abuse if some people like it? That is precisely the point. Not whether it inflicts pain, but that it isn't JUST AN INSTRUMENT OF PAIN.

A spanking is NEVER used for anything else but to inflict pain

Soap in the mouth..... just punishment soap doesn't go in the mouth EVER



I was told of a method used today - in schools - called....tacoing- burritoing??-- when a young child gets uncontrollable in a classroom and becomes .... hysterical - out of control... the teacher can actually roll the child up in a carpet or rug (of course the child's head would not be rolled in the carpet), and the child would stay rolled up until they calmed down. Would you consider this ....abuse?

Some peeople DO like it. Or havent you ever heard of that type of behavior?

too bad, I should have!

"It's totally against popular opinion in culture these days," Whelchel said. "I prefer my child receive a small amount of pain from my hand of love than to encounter a lot more pain in life," she said.
---A Whelchel quote from the article cited.

Yes, it's culture war stuff!

Of course, she's homeschooling the kids. I know that homeschooling is not bad in itself, but these kids could certainly use other adult influences in their lives.

They put a drop of hot sauce on her thumb at one point, but I really don't know what her age was. It's a family joke. She stopped sucking her thumb after that. She is 49 now and loves spicy food and hot sauce, so I don't think she was damaged, but I never really asked her about it.

Child abuse is a harsh word for some things. But then again, I heard my parents did it once and it worked... repeatedly doing this would seem very cruel.

fundie and stated that she doe it to her kids to teach them respect and discipline. Her parents employed similar techniques and she was bragging on how great she turned out.
She loves bu$h regardless.
She says all liberals/dems are babykillers who are going to hell.
She says all liberals/dems should be arrested and killed because they are anti-jesus and anti american.
She says that the war in Iraq is a good thing because "we need to kill all muslims", and "bu$h is smart enough to see that".
She says that we need to take away free speech if its anti -govt.

It worked wonders on her.
She is now a fucking monster.

I have a friend that was never spanked, hot sauced, soaped or pepper sprayed, she loves Bush to. (just kidding about the pepper spraying, I wouldn't ever consider that EVER)

Like this one is? She's just carrying the torch to passed on to her kids.

She is a little biggoted, opinionated, self-centered... but basically she is a nice person...seriously. She is just like I think a lot of middle class Repubs are, resentful that they haven't gotten further in life and want to blame somebody. Plus she isn't a political junkie and is primarily educated by the 20 second soundbite commercials and some right wing news casters.

"Goebels was in favor of freedom of speech for opinions he liked, so was Stalin" -- Noam Chomsky

Whipping your kids with a belt is abuse. Smacking them in abuse. Even a bar of soap, which has chemicals in it, is abuse. Using hot sauce? Mild in comparison. Calling it abuse is an overreaction, imo.

area. (It was torture administered by a sadist, btw).

That was, until a child actually died from the "minor disciplinary" tactic.

It's child abuse. Period. No ifs and or buts about it.

My grandfather taught me that cursing showed a lack of vocabulary and a lack of intelligence. He suggested I learn some other words to use that were clean and so obscure that no one else would know what they meant-my favorite was "puselanimous", which means cowardly, but really can sound bad, especially if you stretch out the first syllable.

It sounds like some 19th Century childrearing method. When I was a kid we had one of those old, big thick household medical reference books in the attic, and in it were ways to stop your child from masturbating, including putting a drop of iodine on his lower abdomen when he was asleep, so he'd think it was a sore created from masturbation.

let alone a child.

If you don't want a kid to swear, don't do it yourself. That's where they get it.

But I DO know that NEGATIVE reinforcement techinques must be used VERY infrequently. If they are applied often, the kids become inured to them and behave even worse. This is the case from the most benign punishments to corporal punishment short of injury.

I no longer spank my kids, ever. But if they did something REALLY bad, they'd have to sit in the corner of the bathroom, quietly, without moving for a given amount of time. But again, we've done that only very rarely.

This "hot saucing" thing seems s little too convenient for parents and something they'd be prone to depending on. It's also very pavlovian, and insulting to the child's ability to actually think through what he/she's done wrong. It's very important to remember that they are people, not pets, and they have the capacity to think. That's why I favor the alone time in a closed place, so they have some time to think about it. (I do 5 to 10 minutes - to them, that's a very long time to sit still and quiet facing a corner.

We heap a lot more praise for good acts than punishments on our kids.

The blond preppy actress who played Blair years ago has been defending putting Tabasco sauce on her kids' tongues. The "born again" Christian and Republican "cites Scripture as justification for hot-saucing." She didn't say if God prefers McIlhenny's.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/226935p-194681c....

I think what offends me the most about this is picturing pious *Blair* waddling around serving her family bland meals consisting of miracle whip,wonder bread and velveeta.

I also feel that way about soap on the tongue. I think things like that should warrant an investigation by child services. And Lisa Welchel is a conservative idiot wacko who's been discussed and debated on parenting boards for years. It doesn't surprise me one bit that she'd advocate something like this.

Goddamn that hot sauce burnt my fucking tongue when i was younger. Shit hurt like hell. Unfortunately i still curse.

x

End of story.

Gawd, people are stupid.

wrong with it. It seems to work. I'm sure different ideas work, or don't, with different kids and different personalities.

Another scare tactic she uses is a threat with a paddle. That works too with them.

I can also tell you that when my sons were young, neither of those tactics would have done a thing. Neither would the standing in the corner have worked.

Going back...way back, to when I (61 now) was very young. I was a very obstinate brat. My parents tried everything from deprivation of toys, to physical punishment. I actually remember being told to do something, and I thought "What can they do to me if I say no?" So I tried it. My Dad paddled me once, and said "Are you going to do it now?", I said no! He paddled me again...and this continued for several rounds. I remember thinking in my 5 or 6 year old mind, "He can't do anything worse than kill me." My mother finally put an end to it telling my father "Can't you see she's never going to give in."

My point is, every child is different, and there is no one thing that works for them all.

A little hot sauce isn't going to damage anyone, nor is a crack on the behind, or any penalty in between those two.

Or when the parent is not around?

Obviously, you need to teach by example. This a punishment for disobeying the house rules. But you teach the house rules too.

And in 10 years, if any parent really believes their kids are ALWAYS going to be pefect and not test the waters, it's the parents that need taught, not the kids.

That is the entire point of abuse. Trying to get around it by using a substance that is painful but does no damage is an end run around common morales.

authority.

I dont want to raise a republican. I have not yet had children, I come to this discussion as a psychology student and a well raised individual.

The point of teaching children is not to get them to obey authority, it is to teach them to do certain things, to not do certain things, and to have certain skills.

At no point in that process is punishment every a good idea. You teach with reinforcement. You reinforce good behavior, you deprive reinforcement for bad behavior, it is an incredibally effective teaching tool and it teaches children the right way to do things, not to hate and fear thier parents and try to always avoid having them find out about anything.

I would rather have children raised who make good decisions because they are the right thing to do, not to make whatever decision they think will keep them from getting punished.

At no point in that process is punishment every a good idea.

How do you reinforce good behavior when a bratty kid rips up another child's papers in the classroom? Punishment is legit. It's the limits of punishment being discussed.

I meant positive punishment. The use of an aversive stimuli as a consequence of the action. I support the use of negative punishment. Detention, time out, removal of priveldges, etc.

This is exactly the problem with public education today. Many parents are afraid to discipline their children because they think discipline is abuse. This is what our society is teaching adults. Many kids do not respect authority because of the lack of disciplinary action taking by their parents. Their parents did not teach them to obey them or anyone else. Classrooms are out of control because the children are out of control. Every child's education suffers because of the many children who have not learned to respect adult authority. Teaching one unruly child is hard enough. Teaching a class of thirty requires a miracle. This problem persists in all grade levels, and it only gets worse as the kids get older. I was once a teacher. My husband is a teacher. I am also a parent. I know this is what is happening to our schools. Children need to learn how to behave, before they can learn anything else significant in life.

I know this first hand. The rod(belt, extension cord), was not spared in my family and it turned us bitter, angry and totally disrespecting authority. When I had kids the ex and I did research and employed several non-pain inducing methods. It seemed to work on my boys.

BTW, do you beleive that kids should respect ALL forms of authority?

horribly inneffective.

We are talking about inflicting pain on children as a teaching method.

Punishment of that kind is a horrible teaching tool for three reasons.

1. Avoidance behaviors. The goal of the child becomes not to do the right thing, but simply to avoid the punishment. Children taught this way learn to sneak and lie. They learn to stop cursing in front of mom but keep cursing in front of everyone else. They learn to avoid swearing in front of thier mother, rather than learning to stop sswearing.

2. Teaching Violence. Not only is it inneffective, it does damage. Along with teaching them to avoid a certain behavior, you are teaching them by example to use violence to respond to others. The very act of hurting them teaches them to hurt other people. And this is true of hot sauce as well as paddling as well as punching. The lesson they learn is that hurting other people is a way to get them to stop doing things.

3. Resentment. Just because you think you are right in hurting them doesnt change the fact that you are hurting them, and just as if you walk up and punch someone, when you hurt someone they get mad at you. We are talking instincts here. Every time you hurt a child to teach him, he/she gets mad at you. Why would you intentionally cause conflict in your relationship with your children?

The way you in some sense punish a bad behavior is through deprivation of reinforcement, not actual punishment. That combined with strong positive reinforcement is by far and away the best and most humane way to teach children.

:(

The kids I know who were raised with ignorant "eye for an eye" methods of punishment have all turned out horribly. Discipline is perhaps the most difficult parenting skill and must be seen as the serious challenge it is.

The lying that results from such poor parenting is something I have seen close-up. My SIL is precisely that kind of parent, and as a result her poor kid turned out to be a compulsive liar. She has clashed with teachers and classmates since grade school, has few friends, and has recently fallen in with a very tough crowd.

There was no reason for it. She started out as a great little kid. It's sick and sad.

Watch "Healing The Hurts"........ it works, alright.

It's the after affects.

:cry:

Kanary

It is stupid.

Speaking here as a Mexican whose culture has always involved hot peppers in some fashion I can say that the more you use them the more you develop a tolerance to them. Not just to the sensation of heat, but to pain as well. After a while, the pepper becomes ineffective as punishment. If a kid becomes impervious to physical pain. What then?

Another problem with this method of discipline is that it is difficult to gage how much pepper is too much for a little kid. We can't go by our own senses because as adults we slowly lose our sensation of taste and can't detect levels of heat that for kids might be brutal. Consider that breastfeeding mothers are advised not to eat strong spices such as garlic because they make their milk unpalatable to their babies.

At least with physical punishment, hand slaps and bare-handed spanks, the parent has some sense of how harshly they are disciplining their child and they can if they are reasonable people, back off a bit. I have two kids, one adult, one close to it. When they were very young I did spank them. Early on I discovered that it was not the physical pain that made them cry, but just the act of being punished. In other words, once a kid is old enough to understand that he is being punished, then the act of being punished in and of itself, is punishment enough.

We are social creatures and as such, there is nothing more painful to us than being outcasts. Those who do not have this sense of shame we call sociopaths.

Nobody ever had to go to the hospital over a drop of hot sauce.

Its not a matter of if it will send a kid to the hospital. Its a matter of whether inflicting pain on a child to train them, like a dog, is acceptable.
Emotional abuse wont send a kid to the hospital. Is that acceptable?

Abuse-apologists, wow, im amazed.

Putting hot sauce in someones mouth simulates the effect of burning them in thier mouthes and throat. The pain is intense and differs from actual burning only in that it does no lasting damage.

This is horrible. You are talking about inflicting intense pain on a child to teach them. It is barbaric in the true sense of the word in that it is cruel and unneccessary.

By that logic, it's okay to do anything physically to your child, no matter how excruciatingly painful, as long as it doesn't result in a hospital trip. Why don't we think up some cruel but "harmless" ways to inflict pain on children? How about electrical shock? As long as you don't use too high of a voltage, you should be fine. Zap your kid every time they sass back. I'd bet they would stop in a hurry.

Really, it turns my stomach that people would purposely use such methods like hot sauce to inflict pain to their children, and justify it as parenting.

That a bruise here and there just build charecter or some stupid folkism that justifies violence.

Seriously. A drop of tobasco sauce on the tongue and you're all flying off the handle. It's ridiculous.

However small the amount of pain, these people are inflicting pain on thier children. I dont think it is morally right that that be done without a damn good reason. And the fact is, there is no good reason, this is not an effective way to teach children.

This is ignorance at work. This is people defending thier ignorance under the guise of cultural norms. "A little hot sauce is nothing" at one point people said "A little paddling is nothing" before that "a few switchings is nothing"

The problem is that punishing children, especially by using pain is a destructive process that does more harm than good and can be replaced with humane techniques that are far more effective in teaching.

I ask you why you feel the need to step in and defend these actions.

Therefore, your question is meaningless.

Better?

Now do you want to explain exactly why you think we should just accept that some parents choose, against all available evidence of the best way to treat children, use pain as a parenting tool?

Why introducing a chemical that causes the sensation of intense heat to a sensitive part of a childs body is not abuse?

You have already argued that you think anything short of a hospital visit is abuse, so I guess there is no point in trying to convince you, just understand that most people set the bar quite a bit lower than you do.

And your condescending, arrogant, dishonest blather is painful.

x

x

My point was that, at one point doing anything and everything to a child was perfectly legal, and when it was made illegal or culturally frowned upon, people were told it was none of thier business.

My point is that it is our business if a parent hurts a child. Children arent property.

and attack me rather than my argument. Congratulations.

Keep on defending supid inhumane parenting practices. And keep thinking I am somehow being a jerk because I dont let you get away with it.

x

Then yes, hotsaucing should be illegal.

And I bet you support a woman's right to choose whether to carry a baby to term, right?

I do too, but I don't think we should be taking away people's kids because they occasionally put a drop of hot sauce on their tongues to get their attention.

Hotter sauce? Hey small amounts of paint thinner wouldnt send a kid to a hospital either.

The slippery slope works both ways. I don't believe hot saucing is abuse. You do. I think you're wrong. You think I'm wrong. We're going to have to agree to disagree.

The fact is that timeouts are proven to be effective. Thus obviously a more ethically sound option than pain infliction. Sure nothing works 100% of the time, so why would you take that risk with a painful punishment rather than a non-painful one?

x

It triggers a negative emotional response and causes avoidance behavior.

That's the point!!!

The desired outcome is appropriate future behavior.

In the case of swearing, the desired outcome is a reduction in swearing in the future.

A negative response is an unwanted side effect. Triggering negative emotions towards you in your child is fairly universally considered to be a bad thing.

Avoidance behavior is behavior that avoids punishment, not conforms to the ideal behavior. The child learns to curse only when parents are out of reach. Avoidance behavior is lying and sneaking.

Both can be very destructive to the process of trying to teach a child to behave ethically and properly and are not what any form of teaching is supposed to do.

Like loss of privileges. That seemed to work with my kids.
Plus I never made using cuss words a big deal. I just impressed it upon them that it made them look sleazy and ignorant.
Worked for me.
That "Facts of Life" chick in the article is only trying to make herself look like the perfect chritisan parent not "sparing the rod", just like the bible says. Its all superficial bullshit and chance are her kids will grow up angry and recentful like most kids I grew up with that had that type of parent.

And there's not a child-abusing serial killer among us.

At least, as far as I can tell!

The fact is that inflicting pain on anyone is unethical without justification and there is simply no justification. There are more humane alternatives. There is no evidence that doing something like this is so effective or neccessary as to outweigh what could admittedly be modest harm, yet with hot souce, the pain could be extreme.

care to articulate this defense of yours a little better. If I shoot someone, but only graze thier ear, is that OK?

That's logic. That's an argument. Wow. Very impressive.

This was a message brought to you by Pith "Snide" Let for benefit of Artemis "Leave No Mark" Bunyon.

Okay, okay. Back to the lounge with me.

By the way, thanks for accusing me of being a child abuser! I really appreciate your contribution to the dialogue!

You are arguing that using hot sauce is not abuse because it is relatively benign. I am arguing that the exact same logic would justify punching as ok just as long as you kept the pain the down to a low level.

I am arguing that punching a child is bad because it hurts him, thus some other punishment that also hurts the child is bad as well.

Where in this very basic argument are you getting confused?

x

punch2 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pnch)
tr.v. punched, punch·ing, punch·es
To hit with a sharp blow of the fist.


Surely you could have done that yourself.

But I think it is highly unethical, and just a plain bad idea. There is no neccessity in inflicting pain on children, there are better ways to teach them.

The solution to this problem is education.

Emotional, psychological, and yes, sometimes physical.

Even the mere disapproval of one's parents can cause pain. Do you think it's highly unethical and a bad idea for parents to show disapproval of their children's actions?

Not all discipline involves pain. For one a time out is generally not painful, although it is often just as effective.

Emotional pain is an entirely different thing, though certianly causing immense emotional pain is really no better than intense physical pain.

I certainly think emotional abuse occurse.

The fact is that all kinds of discipline, verbal and physical do not cuase pain. those are better methods of discipline.

I have to agree with you to a point. A one time drop of hot sauce on a child's thumb did the trick in my sister's case. (She loves spicy food today.) But the problem here is that this person repeatedly puts it directly on the child's tongue. No choice involved for the kid. And the reason???? Cussing? That's way over the line punishment.

I know I'll be flamed, cause I believe in spanking. I don't think it is child abuse to spank. It's all in degrees. A swat on the butt is VERY DIFFERENT than an abusive parent who uses fists and causes bruises.

This freakazoid putting hot sauce in the mouth to stop language is plain crazy.

and I agree with you. I do not put a swat on the butt anywhere near the abuse line, even though I do not believe it is the effective parenting method that many think it is. I'm quite sure that most people in child services and other social services would place the bar much lower than "hospital visit inducing" thankfully.

There are so many different situations and different children and parents. Of course there needs to be correct teaching words along with the swat.

I think my upbringing had some really bad punishments involved, yet the worst were mental, not physical.

Abuse is a strong and legal word.

Kids won't all respond the same way to every method. Parenting is tough, and there are always people willing to critique and judge. I do think that there is a line regardless of the child when it comes to abuse. That line is probably different for different people, but society has to come to a consensus about where that is. I wouldn't expect spanking to to be over that general consensus line, as long as it doesn't go beyond a swat or two, and not on a bare bottom.

And, not that you're saying otherwise, but in response to the topic o the thread, I do think that hot sauce on the tongue gets scarily close to that line, if not crossing it.

but it's completely pointless - my two older siblings got spanked - my brother and I didn't - there's never been a big difference between all of us in "bad child" terms.

I always used to laugh when I'd see a parent smack a child and yell "don't hit your sister" when they were doing it - apart from letting them know that superior force is effective what does it actually teach.

But I don't feel like re-typing it.

All this talk of pain and whatever else is giving me a guilt complex

I grow hot peppers and my eight year old sometimes samples a couple of bites of them right off of the plant (washed but freshly picked)

She has eaten everything we would eat ourselves since she was around two years old...obviously we are not serving spicy foods as punishment, but we have certainly never said "no you can't eat that"
either (unless it's poisonous obviously)

I guess it's all a matter of what you're accustomed to!

I love the hot stuff, it would have been a reward for me.

This is what used to be used when kids cussed .

Punishing by bad taste and punishing by simulated burning pain are two very different things.

dupe

Have you ever had soap in your mouth?

It sucks - it is WAYYYYY worse than a drop of tabasco.

If anything I think the soap is more cruel than the hot sauce.

Depending on the child's tolerance.

But I wouldn't go as far as calling it abuse.

Just because you put it in the mouth?

You dont see the very clear destinction between using the bad taste of soap and using the pain of mimicked burning?

There is a difference.

The kid will get over it. Geez.

It's better for the kid to be "hot sauced" than being spanked, is it not?

Does pain make good kids?
Most of the kids, myself included, that were subjected to painful punishments, turned out badly at some point (myself included).

I was spanked from here to the moon when I swore. I still have bruises on my ass from being spanked. From all that, though, I never once turned out bad.

If I can put up with a little hot sauce (I'm a 22 year old male), then a 10 year old can put up with it.

Kids of today should be lucky that they don't get spanked like I did back then.

What are you supposed to do when your kid swears? Send him/her to his/her room? Ha! That never works. Give him/her a time-out? Nope. That doesn't work either. Take away his/her tv privileges? No dessert after dinner? Sorry, those don't work either.

Soap stopped me from swearing. Hot sauce will stop a kid.

Over the top.

I'll just say that your insistance that pain is the only effective way to discipline is wrong.

It's all a matter of bad taste.

Hot sauce tastes really bad. But pain? No.

You guys are taking it waaaaaaaaaaay to the extreme.

Yes, at one time physical pain was a very very common form of teaching children, then we realized that it was inhumane and ineffective. During the history of our culture there have been times of immense violence and horrible abuses of human rights, does that mean we should stop trying to improve human rights?

I hate to break it to you, but good parents are able to raise children perfectly well without ever using pain inducing chemicals.

"Pain inducing chemicals"?????

Sorry to break it to you kid, but hot sauce doesn't cause much pain at all. ;)

It's more of a bad taste than anything else. ;)

but the thing that makes hot sauce hot is not a taste, this has NOTHING to do with taste. It is a chemical that fools nerve endings into sending pain and heat signals to the brain.

Why do you think they make pepper spray out of peppers?

You can sensitize yourself to it with repeated exposure and even get enjoyment out of using them, but that doesnt change the fact that they cause pain, and if they didnt, we wouldnt be having this discussion, it is just that pain the parents use.

so it has as much pain as a mosquito bite.

Whoop-dee-doo.

Have you ever had strong hot sauce?

They measure hot sauces by the amount of heat they simulate and have created suaces with concentrations of heat that make them inedible. So painful that no human being on the planet could eat them.

Pepper spray uses the same chemicals to burn other sensitive parts of the body.

Depending on the concentration hot sauce can be extremely painful and even fairly common hot sauces given to someone who has no experience with them can cause an intense amount of pain.

The comparison to a mosquito bite is laughable.

X

DON'T YOU KNOW WHERE THE CAPS LOCK BUTTON IS? THAT'S WHY YOU'RE LOSING THE ARGUMENT.

And you're just being snide.

By lying about the nature of my posts.

Do you not know what an argument is?

Some parents discipline their child by wiping a drop of hotsauce across the tongue. Here is a sampling of how you've characterized that extremely mild procedure in this thread:

"parents in essence burn thier childrens mouths as a punishment."

"It is ineffective and causes massive collateral damage."

"Abuse-apologists, wow, im amazed. Putting hot sauce in someones mouth simulates the effect of burning them in thier mouthes and throat. The pain is intense and differs from actual burning only in that it does no lasting damage. This is horrible. You are talking about inflicting intense pain on a child to teach them. It is barbaric in the true sense of the word in that it is cruel and unneccessary."

"violence"

"introducing a chemical that causes the sensation of intense heat to a sensitive part of a childs body"

"supid inhumane parenting practices"

"It triggers a negative emotional response and causes avoidance behavior."

"the pain could be extreme."

"So painful that no human being on the planet could eat them."

"an intense amount of pain"

"it is the sensation of intense heat, ie burning, ie pain."

"it is the sensation of intense heat, ie burning, ie pain."

etc, etc, ad hysteria.

You ask me if I know what an argument is. Having a degree in philosophy, I think I can answer that question in the affirmative. You, on the other hand, do not. When I wrote that nobody ever went to the hospital over hot sauce, you wrote the following:

"You have already argued that you think anything short of a hospital visit is abuse, so I guess there is no point in trying to convince you, just understand that most people set the bar quite a bit lower than you do."

And you say I'm smearing YOU?

PS - a noprize to you if you can identify the logical fallacy you committed in that last quote.

How dare I. I mean you think it is just a mild procedure, how dare I disagree with you. I mean clearly that means I am not making any arguments and my posts are worthless, yah you were very right to smear me like that.

How was I smearing you in accurately saying that you argued that because something did not require a hospital visit it wasnt abuse. You said it, how was that a smear.

If you have a degree in philosophy and think I havent made arguments, you should go ask for your money back.

Meanwhile why dont you deal with the fact that everything you quoted me saying was 100% true.

Try proving my arguments flawed or false rather than ridiculing me because I dont agree with your view on things Mr. Philosophy major.

You wrote:

"How was I smearing you in accurately saying that you argued that because something did not require a hospital visit it wasnt abuse. You said it, how was that a smear."

You are smearing me by accusing me of arguing that any punishment that doesn't result in a hospital visit is not abuse, when what I actually wrote was the following:

"Nobody ever had to go to the hospital over a drop of hot sauce."

This was a simple statement about hot sauce. The argument you are attributing to me is nowhere to be found in the words that I wrote.

It is logically indefensible to take that statement and say that I have argued that any form or punishment not requiring a hospital visit wasn't abuse, which is something I do not, in fact, believe.

You did in fact argue that hot sauce wasnt abuse because it isnt harmful enough to send people to a hospital. If you didnt mean to say that, perhaps you shouldnt have said it.

You have concocted this in your irrational, hyperbolic fury.

Never!

10 year old can put up with it."
You take the hot sauce because you like it. The 10 yr old you mention is having it forced on him against his will.

But you know, parents have a right to punish their kids. ;)

You all are saying hot saucing is just as bad as spanking. If I could have a pick between the two, I'd pick the hot saucing anyday.

What ever made you think that they did? Spanking is more of a privacy issue than a freedom issue. The state does not want to intrude too much into the soveriegnty of the family and therefore is vague on the legality of less egregious harm.

No pain. Nothing.

Just a bad aftertaste.

It is not a bad aftertaste, it is the sensation of intense heat, ie burning, ie pain.

and burn isnt pain?
If I held you down and pour a bit of hot sauce into your mouth,against your will, would it not be pain to you?
I'll betcha it would. And you'd probably want to kick my ass afterward.

the thing is, parents aren't pouring a bottle of hot sauce down their child's mouth. They're using one drop of hot sauce.

There's a big difference.

Your taste buds are more developed too.

I'm not going to change your opinion, you're not going change mine.

Let's just agree to disagree on this issue. I have more important things to do, as you probably do too.

I raised 3 boys, mostly by myself and didnt hit them or hotsauce them. They're not perfect, but all are good kids that have respect for themselves, me, and humankind.
I cant see those qualities in you my friend.

Most people would say that I'm one of the nicest, friendliest people they've ever met.

I am who I am. I don't hide that from anybody.

He didnt think that he had sides either.

the ghosts of the mansion made Jack Torrance crazy. ;)

may have made me a bit crazy. But I will condemn parents using pain as punishment every time.

Happy now?

my own opinions on this subject. I find this act of punishment deplorable and cruel and I'm in a mood to argue I guess. Just like you are.

Put some of it into your mouth, and tell me if its just a bad aftertaste.

Particularly to most children, who have not developed a palate that can tolerate it. Some adults, as well. It would be torture to me, now, and it would have been much worse as a child. You may be one of those people who aren't sensitive to it and may never have been as a child, which is why you may not understand why some react so strongly. But, that is not the case for most people.

I watched a reality show, the type that makes people eat disgusting stuff, and one of the things was hot peppers, each one stronger than the other, until they could no longer stand it. These were adults, who were choosing to subject themselves to such a torture. Forcing a child, who's taste buds are more sensitive, is torture, unless you know for sure that your child is one of those people who aren't effected as strongly because they've eaten very highly spiced foods their whole lives.

like I explained above, the parents are putting one drop of hot sauce on their finger and wiping it on their child's tongue. One drop.

And in that one drop, there's about 0.001 percent of a whole hot pepper.

I say that parents who hot sauce their kids instead of spanking them shows great judgement on the parents' part.