ALright.....arguing with a freeper who is also a friend....

I've gone through tons of stuff with him, and everything is at a stand still.
I know the accumulation of DU knowledge is much more than I can think of on my own.
SO when you're in this situation, what do you say to win the battle?

what are you arguing about?

usually all it takes to 'win' is to know your facts. right wingers like to only learn as much as will help them spin. when you give them the whole story their arguments tend to degenerate.

to handily win the argument based on what your friends main voting issues are. given the widespread catastrophe bush has caused, then you can definitely lay out the facts that show he is a disaster no matter the topic.

just understand what matters to him most

They just dismiss everything you say as lies unless you can prove it. Then, when you do prove it, they tell you that your evidence or documentation is biased.

Meanwhile, they say some of the most insane things I have ever heard, usually pathetic lies that only a moron would belive, and they get insulted when you ask them for a source.

This is why I don't have republican friends anymore. I don't respect them.

Our biggest debate is over the mercury issue of the 45 senators, 7 of which were republicans, and 1 was independent, filing a complaint and wanting an investigation because of the dismissal of law when writing these regulations. Check it out: I have 31 different articles here, from 17 different sources.
And yet, he maintains that its lies.

stating once again that this is exactly why I no longer speak to my Republican "friends". Fuck them.

But I know it might be a different situation for you. I understand that you want to keep this friend.

I guess, the best advice I can give is don't discuss politics often, be willing to take a step back and a deep breath, and don't let it get personal.

a close friend, but an online acquantance, really. We both have a lot of the same real friends, almost all of which are dems and those that are not do agree that bush is full of shit. Its not personal, in fact, I'm just tired of his beating around the "bush" and wanting to know if there was anything I havent tried to throw at him that he can't throw back.
Of course, after the mercury thing, I should have known better.

Everytime I attempt to tell my "fundie" friends the truth, this is their answer. "All politicians lie. Why should I believe democrat lies?" "Abortion is wrong." "Bush is a Godly man."

I'm sorry. You cannot talk to most of these people. They are totally brainwashed. My friends did get upset when I told them the Bush connections to the moonies, which they are afraid of; but, then, they asked me what proof I had. They trust no democratic sources, and, even though they deny it, they only watch Faux propaganda. But, to them, it's the word of God. Believe me, I have almost lost this friendship, which I treasure. My friend, thankfully, has some very liberal ideas, which makes living with her idiocy a little more bearable. All in all, in most cases, this is a losing battle.

If under 35, ask him if he's looking foward to being drafted and sent to Iraq or IRAN next year...:eyes:

If over 35, ask him how it would feel not only to be laid off from his job, but then forced to train the foreign worker who's replacing him under the threat of losing any severance pay or unemployment eligibility if he didn't do so?

Or ask him if he likes the idea of his mother or grandmother losing the right to chose her healthcare provider, her primary doctor, or the opportunity to buy ANY prescription drug under Medicare at a cheaper price?

I'll bet one of the above will work--or at the least, shut him up!:D

B-)

I've mostly been chatting with him over various aspects of "flip flopping" (bringing up the point of Bush Sr) and the lying, breaking national/international law....you know, the regular. For the most part, he has nothing to say but "yes, but do you feel safe with kerry?"

I have people I work with who are intelligent, nice people who you'd think could be easily convinced of the facts but they are fustratingly ignorant. They watch only faux news, and they listen to Savage, Hannity, Rush, Coulter, etc. They are so brainwashed that there is no proof in the world you could come up with that would make them admit that they were wrong. I've won debates many times but they will never concede, they usually make some stupid joke and try to laugh it off, then they change the subject. The only people you have a chance of converting are the ones on the fence. And there aint too many of those left.
On the other hand, without the anonimity of the internet people tend to be alot nicer in their debates, and I can always find a place of common ground. I got into it with one about assault weapons yesterday, at the end of the discussion I ended up conceding that people should have the right to own an assault weapon, and he conceded that in order to do that a person should have a backround check and an extensive gun safety and use class. A decent solution that appeases both sides. I wish thats how it really worked...

You have to decide if this person is worthy of your friendship or not. You have to realize that there is NO battle.

You have to understand that no one can change a freeper's mind except the freeper them-self. You can only offer yourself as a model for what you believe with the understanding that anything you argue will NOT change their mind.

Therefore, "arguments" are useless. You alone will have to evaluate the value of this friendship.

Friendships often bridge things that "thinking minds" might consider unacceptable. That's what makes friendships individualistic and personal to the persons involved.

edit: online arguments are NOT the same as relationships with real persons. fey

illegally transferring 700 million from afganistan to iraq, someone in the white house committing treason (valerie plame), gutting the epa, not allowing the medicare largesse to use its size to negociate pharmaceuticals, the patriot act (gives government more power), got a dwi (he's a felon), prefers faith to science (stem cell research), makes energy policy with enron executives, started 2 wars, one unprovoked, sent troops to iraq without proper equipment or a plan to get them out, slashed veterans benefits, the halliglutton fiasco, is trying to legalize bigotry with the defence of marriage act, trying to limit freedom of speech with an anti flag burning amendment, fought the creation of both the 911 commission and the dept of homeland security, created a 4 trillion dollar deficit, ignoring the SALT treaties, ignoring the Kyoto protocol AND last but not least, has not been to one, single funeral for a soldier coming back dead...... Ive got lots more where that came from.....

"At what point do hypocritical and wrong things committed by your party stop being "just spin" and start being "the truth"? Does it ever for you?"

Also, adding that making shit up is likely to get someone working for a decent-sized newspaper (or etc) fired, that person never working in that field again, and that establishment losing alot of credibility, is pretty effective.

If they don't listen then, then they're really not worth it.