Dr. Phil: Did you spank? Were you spankers?

George: Not really.
Laura: Not that often.

This was the entirety of the excerpt from the Dr. Phil interview with the Bushes shown on Nightline tonight.

Did they spank those girls?

I thought that spanking was considered barbaric by most educated parents by the 70's at least. Why would the son of a U.S. president use corporal punishment on his own children? Shouldn't they have known better?

What does this say about George and Laura and those girls?

Thanks for the image.

Is that a yes or a no?

I know this thread will spawn a bunch of "I don't"'s but I'm talking most people, not DUer's.

And none of my friends who are parents would.

Why would you teach a child to hit people?

Nor my husband.

Not necessary.

My parents' technique was, "Pick up your clothes... one... pick up your clothes... two..." they went to 5 at which point if the instruction had not been followed a stinging behind was in the offing. I ran ONCE and got THREE whacks on my butt instead of one from my dad's belt.

I always knelt down to address mine at eye-level and ask sincerely, "Do you need me to spank you?" They'd seen it with their friends and declined. My oldest decided to push the envelope one day after I requested he not pull his brother off the top bunk by the arm. Caught the little one 6" from the floor and his brother got 3 (I admit, ANGRY, BUTT-REDDENING) swats on a bare behind. I wanted to be SURE he felt it. At first he didn't cry, just looked at me incredulously saying, "You HIT me." I replied , "You could have KILLED your brother." We spent the next 45 minutes "discussing" it and his OUTRAGE. Never had to hit either of them again.

A friend, who took on her nephew in summer, always "DISCUSSED" his transgressions. He came from a violent family as did she. One day I heard him PLEADING with her, "Can't you just SMACK ME and be done with it? Do I HAVE to think about all this?" We LAUGHED SO HARD the tears were rolling!!!

When I was a kid I wished that my parents spanked me like my friends' parents spanked them, instead of going through the Chinese torture of verbal roasting that I had to go through when I was "bad".

I'm not sure that I agree that it is barbaric. I think it depends on how it is done and the context around it.

I will spank my child if I feel it is necessary. Feel free to preemptively call child services on me if you want.. :eyes:

discipline going on. I am not criticizing you, but it seems a pattern of dad dumping on mom and mom dumping on the kids. Again, I am trying not to criticize but I held my breath many times trying to mind my own business.

Moved here only after becoming an adult.

It isnt that spanking is cruel insomuch that it is stupid. There are much much better behavior mod techniques that dont model violence or introduce pain into the parent/child relationship.

Like any other "good parenting techniqe" spanking can be cruel, or stupid, or misapplied.

I've known people who were spanked and those who weren't, and there are all kinds in both groups.

The real behavioral divide is not between "spankers" and "nonspankers" -- given a modicum of common sense -- but between those who regard "dicipline" as something that has to be beaten into kids vs. those who use more moderate techniques.

don't believe in it. If you do the other stuff right like time-out and limit setting, you don't need to. Just don't believe in hitting. My mom used to brandish a wooden spoon occasionally when we were kids, don't think she ever used it.

What annoys me and, obviously, several other people posting here is the reverse-absolutism of some of the "good parenting skills" set: while the "spare the rod..." people seem to think anything short of a beating means the complete absence of dicipline, some on the other side seem to equate a swat on a behind with beating the shit out of a kid. And BOTH sets of absolutists don't just ooze a "holier/better than thou" attitude, they spray it from a firehose.

What's important is sensible, consistent dicipline and a whole lotta love. With them, spanking and non-spanking both have their place. Without them, there will be problems bigger than any spanking or lack thereof could affect.

End of rant.

I teach parenting skills for a living as part of my work, and have for many years, even before I had a kid. And I tend to tell people it is better to avoid spanking ( due to research, etc); but at the same time, there is a cultural expectation or value for many people that spanking is the way to go at times when the behavior is really bad. It's what their parents did and they turned out ok, etc. It is the people who overdo spanking when they are angry who probably have led to it having such an "un pc" kind of vibe. I think there are many parents who spank who are fine parents and can control it and not have it be a problem, while on the other hand there are those for whom hitting is an entree to trouble.

I don't know what the answer is, but for me, hitting a child to tell them to behave, or to register your disapproval of their actions makes no sense. Better to use non-physical negative reinforcers ( loss or priv. or ignoring) or positive physical reinforcers (like hugs and praise when they do well) in my view.

:)

spanking in some knee jerk fashion. I have seen it work very well. In my family, even spanking was combined with communication and believe it or not love.

My father would "spank" his arm when he spanked me - he believed, and he taught me that discipline was sometimes necessary, but that he loved me and would always be there for me, in painful things and joyful things. My dad showing me love like that taught me that spanking wasn't about anger or power, it was times where discipline was really needed, and my parents took no pleasure in it. After I would be spanked, my father or mother would often spend a lot of time talking with me and there was a great deal of affection, tenderness and forgiveness in our house to compliment the discipline.

The most important reason why I think spanking worked was not only that it was always done with this spirit of reluctance and love, but also because discipline was consistent in my house. "spankings" were not handed out at the emotional whim of my parents. And they were not handed out often. But there were very clear and consistent rules of behavior that never changed. I was not allowed to be disrespectful to my parents. I could talk to them, ask questions, even disagree - but I could not be disrespectful.

Anyway, the bottom line is, in my house hold spanking was coupled with love - I never, ever doubted my parents love for me - as well as consistency and explanation: I understood what the expectations were of me, I knew my parents deeply loved me, I saw my parents share in my pain when they punished me, and there was an atmosphere of communication and trust built in our family.

Now, it could very well be that WE GOT LUCKY - and just happened to do everything right. Maybe there really is much better ways. I would be eager and open to looking into that. But I won't write off spanking in a knee jerk fashion, simply because of my own experience.

Sel

The primary effect of spanking on a child is not so much pain as it is embarrassment. I know that looking back on the times I was spanked growing up that it was never excessive, didn't cause any injury outside of a smarting on my behind, but more than anything left me embarrassed afterward.

I look at my 3-yr old nephew now, who is a sweet and extremely bright little boy, but engages in some pretty unacceptable behavior from time to time. My sister-in-law has tried just about EVERYTHING outside of spanking. She puts him in time-out, and he doesn't take it seriously. She tried positive reinforcement for good behavior, now he asks if you have a treat for him every time you see him. Personally, I fail to see the harm in a little smack on the bottom now and again when he does something outrageous. Of course, I would never do that to him because he's not my child, and it's the parents' place to ultimately decide how to raise their children.

It worked for me, and apparently it did the same for you.

My son is three, and he can be a real hellion sometimes. I too, being the "enlightened" liberal parent, tried everything short of spanking. I consulted a "spankologist" and tried it for a week. My mother was pressuring me to spank, too -- they walloped the crap out of me, when I was a kid -- and I turned out GOOD. But it really made me heartbroken, and I felt like a beast, so we stopped it.

The only time that I will ever spank him is when he does something dangerous that could hurt him -- stick things in outlets, run out in the street, etc., etc.

Time outs actually work really well. At first, they didn't, because he wouldn't take it seriously, nor sit still. Holding him down was not an option -- because that just makes somebody mean. So, what I do is -- I take him into time out in the bathroom, which has no windows, and shut off the lights, and sit there with him, until he stops screaming or whatever, and then we talk, and then he gets out. It's like locking a child in a closet, except you're in there with him -- so it's not child abuse, and I think it's better than spanking. Getting rid of the lights kills all stimuli, which is supposed to be the point of a timeout, but too many kids are overstimulated, and won't be able to calm down for a time out.

So we do it in the dark. Tell your friend. It works.

:evilgrin::spank::evilgrin:

That was the interview?

Okay, I came from the generation that got spanked a lot. We thought it was a joke. We knew they really wouldn't hurt us that badly. However, we knew that they were pretty angry when they did. We also knew the punishment didn't fit the crime. Spanking never fit the crime but the mood of the parent.

I really decided I would never spank or do physical punishment when I had children. I never did have children so I can't really say much beyond this. It's just that spanking never accomplished what it was supposed to in my generation.

The most intelligent thing my parents ever did to punish me was to keep me from seeing a movie I really wanted to see. It was actually really effective, but they didn't notice. We went back into our old pattern of: bad behavior is only bad if you are caught. If you are caught, then you will be spanked. (That was my thinking when I was a kid.)

I find I get more cooperation from my pets by being nice and making them understand when they are bad. Spanking or withholding food is stupid. A little treat for good behavior seems to be better.

The most powerful tool in positive behavior modification is reward. Create consequences for a child that relate to reward or no reward. That way the child learns good behavior, he doesnt learn to avoid being spanked, he doesnt learn that hitting is a valid action, he doesnt learn how to piss his parents off (a skill the child will put to good use in his adolescent years), he doesnt get hurt by his parents.

Or he will go off to school, misbahave because you aren't there to hit him, and when a child gets them upset, they learned from you that they should hit them.

I am 20 years old now - my father has a Masters Degree in Psychology specializing in Child Development. My mother spanked me as well, although it didn't happen that often. They were divorced when I was 5 years old.

Oh yes, I feared him alright - so much that I would obey his every single command, which he seemed to give all the time. The result? I never took the initiative to do anything for myself. I would always be at his side, waiting to do anything for him.

...I'm very sorry about your treatment at your father's hands. You had more stress than a child should have to bear. Is your dad a fundamentalist? It seems so sad that someone with that education would treat a family member with so little enlightenment. How is your relationship with your parents now?

Spanking isn't barabaric.

or bad and Laura is too drugged up to remember what she did to cope.

The idea that violence is a good way for family to relate to each other in any way IS WHY THE WORLD IS A MURDER AND RAPE FESTIVAL! DUH!

Don't use cutesy words like "spanking." It's fucking well called 'assault and battery' in a court of law. The idea...

AN ADULT HITTING OR EVEN THREATENING A CHILD OR ANOTHER ADULT IS CALLED TERRORISM. ADULTS CAN BE JAILED FOR ATTACKING ADULTS. HOW COULD IT BE OK TO ATTACK CHILDREN?

My stepfather was beaten by his father. His beating and terrorizing me has made the last 43 years so fucking hard to bear-I can't even describe the anguish.

It goes back millions of years and we can evolve away from the horror of abuse and terror as normal.

And I turned out fine. I even got paddled at my public middle school in the early 80s.

It's not for everybody. My family situation was very stable and both parents were not violent people by nature i.e. not alcoholics and deeply involved in their kids lives.

I was a pretty well behaved kid by the time I was 10 or 11 and all it took was maybe three or four times, always after I had done something particuarly evil.

My wife and I have a number of friends who are just now starting to have children. All of them are part of the new age parenting point of view where discipline is something limited to timeouts and "how does this make you feel". Their kids couldn't be more poorly behaved, coddled and spoiled. Almost all of them.

If we have kids we have all but decided that we won't spank. Corporal punishment has been removed from public schools. But we will take things away as punishment. My parents mixed that with spanking and it was highly effective. When I brought home poor grades in 5th grade, I got grounded for 6 weeks until the next report card came home. I think that kind of thing, when you stick to it, is just as good as spanking as a form of discipline.

Time outs and discussing your children's feelings are both excessively good parenting techniques, and honestly if you think talking with your children about their feelings is bad parenting, you shouldnt have children.

Your friends are like most parents, vaguely familiar with the right way to do things, but also filled with horrible habits and wrongheaded notions. Thier spoiling thier children has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Children were spoiled long before modern knowledge on adolescent development. It is that your friends arent doing it right, not that the idea behind what they are doing is wrong.

Modern parenting techniques have nothing to do with "new age", they werent invented by some guru, they are based on scientific studies.

There's a big difference between asking your child "how it makes them feel" when they've just hit a dog with a ball or purposely thrown a tantrum, breaking something on purpose in the process, because they don't get what they want. Time outs just don't cut it in those situations. Period. End of story. These people don't even raise their voices because "the book told them not to". Do you advocate that as well? Why not call it Stepford Parenting?

It has nothing to do with talking to your kid about how something makes them feel in regard to their general happiness, when they are having trouble at school or with a friend. Two seperate things. Get it?

And please, you're in no position to judge whether or not I should have children. So stick a sock in it.

People spoiled children before the term time out had ever been invented. As far as I can tell children have been spoiled since children were invented. Are you honestly arguing that spoiling a child is a modern invention?

Spoiling came so very long before the parenting trends you referenced that I cant even see where you could come up with the "chicken and the egg" metaphor.

Im sorry that you prefer to believe your completely unsupported opinions over proven scientific facts. I'm sorry youve chosen to ridicule good parenting to make you feel better about not bothering to learn how to do it.

You just reduce a complex set of parenting techniques based on scientific fact to one popularized aspect "the time out", and write it all off without ever bothering to get more than a casual idea of how it works.

I hate to break it to you, but good parenting involves alot more than time outs. And it provides ways to deal with tantrums that are much more effective than screaming at them or hitting them. But why bother to learn how to do something when you can assume you know already and mock others.

kicked the crap out of his 2 year old sister.

A swat on the ass works far, far better in demostrating consequences.

of teaching children?

I dont think I did, making your post completely irrelevent to anything i have said.

...that spanking was the only method?

...might just put people off you argument? Perhaps if you started by not "smearing" their "good parenting techniques" so blithely...

I'm all for "time out" when appropriate, but I do get tired of its advocates when they start acting like they were the first people to think of making a kid sit in a corner....

Spanking can mean many things.

Hitting on a spur of the moment? yes. I think many parents are susceptable to this. Can't remember the last time thought, it is that infrequent.

But a ritual of spanking after the cooling period? barbaric. Ineffective and meaningless, cruel.

I think a spanking should be limited to one hit, on the bottom with the hand and only when the child is so out of control it is necessary to change the dynamic of the situation.

I thought that spanking was considered barbaric by most educated parents by the 70's at least.

Do you have kids?

Excellent post.

Way to cut through all the pseudo-intellectual bullshit. Some people don't realize all these books they buy, all the tapes they buy, are just part of a multi-billion dollar industry of what's mostly pure, unadulterated hooey.


ANYONE could write a parenting book. Think about it, people.

kids (in my experience) that weren't spanked tend to be little savages.

Spanking works from .5 yrs to 5 yrs. After that, it has no effect. Trying "psychology" before 5 years is a waste of time.

Well, why should we bother with scientific studies when we have your experience to rely on.

You clearly have no clue what psychology is, so id appreciate you not referencing it.

Spanking WORKS, prior to age 5.

As for your "appreciation", I couldn't possibly be less interested; I'll say what I please. You don't like it? Easy. Don't READ it.

I will be more than happy to do the same in return, concerning your attitude towards what I do, and do not, have a "clue" about...as your opinion on this also has exactly zero importance to me.

Are we clear?

I wonder.

Spanking works to make a child stop doing something, but it doesn't work to teach a child to understand why they shouldn't do something. They stop doing something simply because they'll be spanked if they don't.

I want my kids to think for themselves, not simply fear punishment.

Please be sure you understand the difference before lecturing people. on the subject.

No spanking I know about fits what you've described.

Child throws a toy at another child and is spanked; Child learns not to throw toys at other children because he/she will be spanked

On the other hand:

Child throws toy at another child and has the toy taken away; Child learns he/she will lose toys that are used to hurt people

I think the best discipline tools are those that are specific to the situation.

I have a 5 and a 6 year old. Both boys with plenty of spirit to go around. They say please and thank you and don't run like hellions in public.

I was raised by parents who felt that spanking was a wonderful parenting tool. My mother even took it to the extreme by using switches to spank us. Charming, it was.

My children make their own decisions about their actions. They know that their choices entail consequences. Oh, they've had their tears, but they also know that Mom is damned serious about those consequences.

Their punishments never entail spanking. Never. And I gotta ask- what the hell do parents who spank plan on doing AFTER age 5? does one start whacking them upside the head, since they can no longer be bent over the knee?

I've found it quite gratifying to be able to punish my children in a non-violent manner. Fortunately, I haven't had to switch my parenting techniques at age 5, because (as you know) spanking WORKS, prior to age 5. :eyes:

I can't imagine spanking a six month old. That IS barbaric.

And you obviously have no idea of what "psychology" is or you'd realize spanking is a form of psychology.

*SIGH*

Kids I know who weren't spanked are very nice kids.

Spanking a 6 month old child is about as effective as training one's dog by kicking him.

I only know two couples who choose to spank their children. One person's son is a complete bully and the other couple's son pulls his hair out subconsciously.

... I suspect you'll find much bigger problems than the spanking.

The one whose child tears his hair out also thought it was a fine idea to use the CIO technique.

The bully is just that - a bully. His dad uses fear and intimidation, so it is a natural that he would use spanking as a discipline technique.

he is 8, and is not spoiled. He is a well behaved polite little boy. TIme-put worked well and loss of privileges.

but plenty of parents, including mine, had absolutely no problem raising perfectly good children without ever resorting to using pain as a punishment tool.

Let me be perfectly clear here -- it was only on EXTREMELY rare occasions that I was spanked as a young child, and it was never done in a way that was really meant to inflict pain, outside of a slight smarting. More than anything, my parents did it to make me associate embarrassment (and fear of future embarrassment) with certain unacceptable behaviors. Especially when I was a child and received a swat across my bottom for something I did in public.

Certainly positive reinforcement is the most favored means of behavior modification with children. But it doesn't always work. Neither do time-outs all the time. There are instances in which I would even say that it is advisable to spank a child as a means of behavior modification.

Personally, I never came to see spanking as an affirmation of violence and/or hitting. And I think that, if done in the proper way in the proper context, it can be an effective means of negative reinforcement. When my wife and I have children, I would not hesitate to use it in much the same manner as my parents did.

prior intervention had eliminated. I'm not a fan of spanking and it has been very rare with my 3, but it was reserved for acts that were truly dangerous acts that the little shits, uh, I mean angels, persisted in engaging in.

I don't have kids, but my mom spanked me a few times. My dad never did, but he hit my sister with a belt once. My mom beat my sister with a wooden spoon on a regular basis, but had a problem with dad using the belt. I don't consider spanking a kid on the butt with your hand to be corporal punishment or abuse. It's not the best behavior management technique, but it doesn't leave marks and rarely results in any type of serious injury. It's more of a humiliation factor. If I had kids, I probably wouldn't spank them, but I don't consider it to be wrong for parents who do.

Using the belt, switch or the wooden spoon crosses a line. You could seriously injure a child that way. My mom and dad were lucky that CPS didn't investigate that sort of thing back in the 70s, or that no one ever called in on them for leaving us alone all day in the summer with my 10 year old brother to watch us.

and I'm far better for it. Some folks in todays society are just pus**ies..scared shitless of there kids..or what other folks may think of them... :wtf:

Those folks that just wanna talk..and express the emotional side of why Jr. is pitching a screaming fit at Wal-Mart because cant he have something he wants, is bullcrap. Beating a child is not what I'm saying but a smack on the ass at the appropriate time is usually all it takes...Hell for that matter and stern look...and no nonsense approach to the childs behavior, and a verbal warning usually is MORE than enough to quell the situation...if not though..smack their damn ass! I see parents all the time..talking to a child while hes screaming...neck veins are popping on the kids...shit folks take hold of the situation...who's the parent here.
Happens in restaurants..movies...bank lines...everywhere...

"ohhh...whats the matter honey...are you upset...has something bothered you. Tell mommy how you feel":think:

oh wait...shit....I know.....sit with um in a calm setting and explain to a frigging 3-4-5 year old how..screaming and pitching a damn fit at the store has mommy all distraught(time for more meds)...how that his behavior is not appropriate and if you continue...well you may just have to face a time out...or we will have a further deeper discussion when your father gets home about this young man....hahahahah

:mad: shit...gimme a fuc**ing break....smack there ass, lower leg..top of the hand.... turn um around look them in the eye and tell them NO. Be firm and assertive, and say it!...."NO"....sheeessss........

People cry so much about this crap...this is subject that too many of us have a wide variety of opinions....what may have worked for you growing up...may not work for others...and no one on a frigging internet sounding board is gonna tell me what I'm doing wrong with my kids...just as I'm not gonna personally judge any of you on how you handle this.

I had no idea so many people approve of spanking. Is this a red state/blue state thing?

I live in NY and approve of spanking as one of many methods of reinforcement.

I also realize that there's a big difference between spanking and hitting. For instance, I was spanked from time-to-time as a young child, but my parents NEVER hit me.

Judging by some of the responses AGAINST spanking on this thread, I'd say that quite a few here fail to realize that there is a difference between the two, and only muddy the issue by equating them.

Swift smack across the bottom for outrageous behavior = spanking
Repeatedly smacking or using a belt or switch = hitting

The only posts that bother me are those that suggest that kids HAVE to be spanked to learn - which I think is a crock of shit - or that children under 5 are on the same level of learning ability as a puppy.

I recognize that most people who spank are careful to only spank gently and to gain attention. While I don't choose that method myself and I personally think it is less effective than other methods, I don't equate it with abuse either.

were clear about this. Spanking after the fact as a ritual "NO"....smacking some butt in the heat of the moment to stop something from getting further outta hand..YES! :bounce:

If the parenting act is done with control...and not some anger management receipient..I've personally seen it work. It woks with my children, (3 of um by the way)...and those of friends of ours. I also have seen what the "calm talking too" and all that "time-out" shit does. Those are the folks we no longer hang out with..their kids or(lil-shits) are very undisiplined...disrespectful..and most of the older ones are smart-mouth little bastards. Ya know the ones that never had there ass popped...Ive had kid spend the night with my children...and they understand right quick like..Mr. Lee don't play"...hell they have said that to there parents....there parents have asked me how I do it. Its simple..I take a no bullshit stance to smartass disruptive behavior. Not from my kids...and not from kids who hang out with mine.

I no longer have to smack um now...they are 6-8-14 yrs old...talking about the problem works well...but I will still spin them around in a minute and verbally get on there ass.

And oh yea..all my kids have excellent grades...attendance...and behavior problems are non existent in each of there schools. They are polite, respectful (yes mamm..no sir..), and very much in tune to those kids that DO act up. They look at me and roll there eyes..and laugh...saying..."get'um dad":loveya:

:eyes:

I'm actually surprised Bush didn't claim to spank his children once a week whether they were bad or not. That idea goes over really well in certain quarters.

that Dr Phil is a pervert.

You know...those Stepford Wives aren't really in to that ewwwww....sex thing.

David

I can remember perhaps 3 times and I know exactly what I did that I shouldn't have and I never did those things again. There would have been one more time, but I recall looking my father straight in the eye and telling him that I understood what I'd done wrong, that I promised it wouldn't happen again and asking him not to spank me. He thought for a few seconds and nodded in agreement. It never came up again.

I lived for several years in a very traditional Japanese neighborhood in Hawaii. The practice there was to send a child to the local martial arts teacher when corporal punishment was to be administered. The parents never actually administered the punishment, the local karate teacher never injured a child and no child ever got swatted by a parent. Seemed like a useful strategy.

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY

Those who believe that a parents' job is to nurture, protect and teach their children.

And those who believe that strong father figures should run the world (and families)- dishing out punishment to those who disobey.

People see parental roles much as they see the role of government in society.

I leave it to you to decide which role *Bush follows.

************************

Some of the posts in this thread vividly show how bad parenting is handed down through the generations. It's obvious how many here who were spanked as a child now say that they see no problem spanking their own kids now.

They say other methods don't work. But they never consider the possibility that those are methods that they would never try because they don't fit into their worldview.

Have you ever noticed those National Geographic shows where the anthropologist is in the native village in the jungle. Notice how there are no adults hitting children to control their behavior? And there are no kids hitting other kids or throwing tantrums? Ever wonder why?

We live in a culture with a long tradition of the "strict father" view of the world. It is so pervasive even many (political) liberals hold that view psychologically as this thread shows. Most have no idea how much that affects every facet of our lives - from who we are attracted to to how we treat our kids to who we see as a good leader.

cough...cough...***We live in a culture with a long tradition of the "strict father" view of the world."


B U L L S H I T!!!
My momma got on my ass more than my dad....

Put all the ....book reading.....bullmularky you want to on this. No one herr is promoting "Beating"...firm words...a smack on the butt..problem solve.....

and in regard to puppy-child thing...very true....VERY TRUE!!
Kids up to 5 years of age need to be shown, told and instructed..how to act and respond to different situations. Soothing, calm...petting...and talking about the issue is just plain crap, in most cases.....( were talking about basic disruptive behavior here...not why jr. spilled his juice box..ok!!) Of all the folks that are against spanking here...how many of ya have kids...????...or is this just a bunch of armchair pyschobable ya read somewhere???

sheeeeees

. . who are psychologically conservative will subscribe to the "strict father" view - and will enforce it. It's a psychological mindset. In fact, it creates a lot of difficulty in a marriage when the spouse has adifferent mindset. It probably won't last long enough to have kids. They probably wouldn't have been attracted to each other in the first place.

The fact that talking about this bothers you so much indicates that you are pretty heavily infected with that mindset yourself.

My parents spanked me. Rarely, and usually for good reason, and never in a way that would injure, but rather cause embarrassment.

I would say that they HARDLY raised me with an authoritarian worldview. They were both educators. They taught me to be inquisitive, questioning and independent. They taught me that violence is not an acceptable solution to problems. They taught me that I should respect and treat other people as I would like them to treat me.

So, based on my personal experience, your "theories" are bullshit. And yes, I know where you got them from -- George Lakoff. What you fail to note is that the nurturing/authoritarian scale is not an either-or dichotomy, but rather exists in varying degrees. Also, you failed to mention that going entirely in one direction (extreme authoritarianism) or another (complete permissiveness) is a disastrous strategy, as children raised in BOTH environments tend to have equal (higher than average) rates on deliquency.

Furthermore, the idea of respect for others and good behavior is fully present within the "nurturing" model.

. . I would never call someone else's position in a discussion bullshit. When you do that it shows that some important part of your worldview has been violated.

My whole point is that " . . the idea of respect for others and good behavior is fully present within the "nurturing" model."

I have no idea why you would equate that model with "complete permissiveness". Complete permissiveness is just another example of a chaotic home where there are no consistent rules or respect for others.

Try to back off from your emotions and just deal with the factual content. I have no desire to fight - especially over whose worldview is best.

I would never call someone else's position in a discussion bullshit. When you do that it shows that some important part of your worldview has been violated.

Nothing in my worldview has been violated. I simply choose to call things what I believe them to be. When I come across something that stinks, I'm going to refer to it in a label I believe to be fitting.

I have no idea why you would equate that model with "complete permissiveness". Complete permissiveness is just another example of a chaotic home where there are no consistent rules or respect for others.

I have no idea why you would equate those parents who believe that spanking can be an effective deterrent when the situation warrants with the full acceptance of an authoritarian worldview. I was simply spinning the false dichotomy in the other direction to demonstrate the ridiculousness of your argument.

Try to back off from your emotions and just deal with the factual content.

Opinions are not facts. You're presenting the former, falsely portraying them as the latter.

heheheh...just tired of hearing this crap.....you have kids.....??

If so..I hope they turn out to be polite, mindful, and loving adult's, and if wishing..and talking to them at the young impressionable age achieve this good for you and you spouse...if not though............






sit down and STFU!

. . from the sweet sunny south. Figures.

Sure there are plenty of examples of people who were spanked as children and turned out to be wonderful people. And I will accept others' contention that authoritarian/nurturant parenting is not an either/or dichotomy. A parent who spanks children can have lots of other qualities that are nurturant.

But I'd like to see these people that are giving you such a hard time present some scientific evidence, (not their own anecdotal evidence) from legitimate psychologists (not James Dobson) that there is any benefit to be gained from spanking. If their fervent belief in the value of spanking is so true, then I would think there is some credible scientific evidence to back up that view. I've read the Lakoff book also, and he presents a digested overview of the literature on spanking and if I'm remembering correctly it is pretty clear that there is no reason to spank. It just teaches impressionable children to use violence to get their way, even if it compels them to behave how their parents want them to right then and there. Saying "I spanked my boys and they got all A's" doesn't disprove that.

don't like spanking. Spanking is legal in many states, but I prefer not to hit my kid. I didn't like it when I was a kid, so I choose as an adult not to do it. Time out and loss of privileges worked fine when my son was little and still do. He is 8.

end of message!

I come from a long, long line of big mouthed broads.

My brother and I were rather good children, and the threat of ANY punishment usually worked on us- and it was usually just a grounding, whether we were prevented from playing with a toy or going our on the weekends. I do remember my brother getting his hand swatted by my mom's hand AS HE WAS REACHING for a burning candle. And I do remember getting the VERY infrequent "pat" on the rear from my mom's hand. More of a warning shot across the bow than actually punishment. Most of the time though, one of my parents just had to look at us in a disappointed way and my brother and/or I started crying.

And that worked for both my brother and I because for the most part, we wanted to be good kids.


HOWEVER, I have a cousin who was the Spawn of Satan when she was younger. My grandmother (and hers) called her the Bad Seed. Our GRANDMOTHER, for heaven's sake! My aunt and uncle really did try everything with her- from time outs to counseling to groundings to finally full-fledged spankings. Absolutely, positively nothing fully worked with her. The only thing that prevented her from hurting herself and/or others was the threat and actual use of physical punishment. And even then, she'd turn around and *smirk* to her parents "That didn't hurt." Some people may actually be inherently bad people, even if they don't turn out to be serial killers.

Her brother, on the other hand, was more like my brother and me, and physical punishment was never necessary for him.

The punishment has to be in tune with the child's personalilty. And there are some children for whom nothing works but a physical punishment.

Please don't say that I am advocating beating a child, because I am most certainly not. But, just as it would not have meant anything to my brother for my mom to have taken a book away from him or anything to me for my mom to have banned video games, it meant nothing to my cousin for her parents to punish her in any sort of "intelligent" way. Hopefully you'll never have to deal with a child like that.


However, I do have a 6 month old, and I can't imagine spanking him. He is certainly not old enough to understand ANY sort of discipline right now, much less a physical one.

But there are far too many parents today who try to be friends with their kids. YOU ARE NOT THEIR FRIEND- YOU ARE THEIR PARENT. I should not have to be the one to tell an 8 year old not to run up to my stroller and try to touch my child. His parent should have prevented that. I should not be the one to have to tell a 10 year old not to run down the aisle in the grocery store (nearly knocking down an elderly lady in the process). Her parent should have done that. Far too many children today are subject to no discipline whatsoever because far too many adults have been told that their kids will hate them if they do.

My parents WERE loving, nurturing and teaching my brother and me. Teaching us that there are limits in society, that some things can hurt us and should be avoided, that we must respect the space and property of others, and that our behavior at a store should be different than at the playground. For a parent NOT to teach their children those things is criminal, and s/he is not looking out for the best interests of their child if they let them live with no discipline or limits at all.


Sorry for the rant. But I am so very tired of the spoiled, truly undisciplined, whiny, misbehaving, and pouty children I see all over the place. You have to have a license to drive- you should almost also have to have a license to become a parent.

Mom wore the pants in my family. :)

You're arm-chair psychology is insulting. You can't sum up everythign in to neat little either or boxes. Take a look at my follow up post above and respond to that.

Give me a number or a link please.

Then you got lost in a forest of excessively broad suppositions.

I was spanked infrequently as a child, until I was about 5 and able to understand other forms of discipline.

My children were spanked infrequently when they were small, up to about 5. This is not an over-the-knee or beat with a belt spank - it was generally a single swat on the behind, for a number of years well padded with a diaper. It was a rare occurence - generally, it wasn't needed.

I'm sure there are many of you who will not appreciate this analogy but it doesn't really matter. Small children are similar to puppies in that they need simple, clear instruction in order to learn right from wrong. If my 3 year old is trying to poke his finger in a light socket, I will remove him from the area, saying "No!" firmly. If he goes right back, he'll get a swat on the butt along with the "No!" That's exactly what my puppy will get, too.

I disagree with the poster who said that spanking does not teach the child not to do something - it does. It lets them know that the behavior is not tolerated.

I'm not advocating beating children nor do I think spanking is very effective once a child reaches an age when they can understand things like positive reinforcement or the withholding of priveliges better.

Nor, I hasten to add, am I saying that I think Pickles and Bushie are good parents. I don't think they're good anything.

I have a 2-1/2 year old who hasn't needed to be spanked and she doesn't stick her fingers in the electrical sockets. I put plugs in them and told her "ouchie" around them. She doesn't even try anymore and told my nephew "no touch -ouchie" when he went near one.

Do you really thing children under 5 have the same learning abilities as puppies? That's pretty sad.

And I'm the poster who said spanking doesn't teach them anything - it doesn't teach them to think. Yes it teaches them not to do something - only because they're afraid. It doesn't teach them WHY they shouldn't do something. So if you're not there to spank then the reason why they shouldn't do it ceases to exist.

I'll make you a deal. I won't tell you how to raise your kids and you don't tell me how to raise mine. There is more than one right way to do anything.

Why is it sad that I think that small children are similar to puppies? I've raised both, quite successfully I might add. I'm not saying that their intelligence is the same - I'm saying that at that stage, they learn in a similar way. Repetition, clear commands, consistency.

I don't really care if my 3 year old doesn't understand WHY he shouldn't put his finger in a light socket - I just don't want him to do it. If I thought it was important he knew why, I'd stick his little digit in there and give him a shock (and before you go off on that, I would never do such a thing). The reason why is because it's off limits, period. There doesn't have to be a why for everything.

My kids are 24, 22 and 17. They are happy and well adjusted. The oldest is married with two children (who she does not spank, by the way, which is fine with me because how she raises her kids is none of my business - hint, hint). She works full time and owns her own home. My younger daughter lives on her own, works full time and is very responsible. My son is a good kid who does well in school. Tell me how spanking them occasionally has warped them. I would be interested.

I said that I recognize the difference between spanking and abuse. My parents spanked me, my husband's parents didn't spank him, and we've both turned out fine. I choose not to spank but I know most parents who do are gentle with it. I just don't like the absolutes that all children need to be spanked, etc.

for the inherent patriarchal societal dominancy that's ingrained into your being for millenia.

I think you make a good case. (And a realistic case!) I don't like comparing babies to puppies, but you are right that kids who are 1 and a half years old don't know reason when it comes to things that endanger their lives.

And for every book that explains how bad SPANKING (NOT HITTING) is, there is another book explaining how it is an acceptable practice.

I was spanked. (Spanked, not beaten up!) I've turned out great. Neither my brother nor I believe that violence is acceptable. When we did something really bad, we knew there were consequences to our actions.

But, I gues I'm barbaric, also!

And many of my friends continue to spank their children. Not everybody sees it as barbaric. Sorry.

yes I have to go to my crazy therapist, yes have to take lithium, yes is ok I have scars on my heands...but I came out to be petty good democrat!> :o)

seems to make the point of "Don't run in the road, or Don't stick keys into the outlets."

Pavlovian, yes, but I have found that it worked when they were tots. Now that they are a bit older and can generally be reasoned with, time outs and losing privileges do the trick better.

Spare the rod, spoil the child, right George?

I'm not going to tell anyone else how to raise their children, but I would never spank my child. We don't hit in our family.

...except maybe Babs' down-to-the-bone meanness.

The problem here isn't hitting or not hitting, it's that the Bushes don't seem to believe in diciplining themselves or their kids AT ALL.

why do the numbers of asshole children, in my sensory area, constantly increase?

. . your magnetic personality.

Up above I said that my parents spanked me, and it was one of the best things they ever did for me. Naturally that created a few reactions...

Someone above said that they were convinced there were much more effective and better ways to discipline than spanking. I'm more than willing to (and do) think about other kinds of discipline approaches, but I'm not willing to take some knee-jerk approach to spanking. I have seen it work very well. In my family, even spanking was combined with communication and - believe it or not - lots of love.

My father would "spank" his arm or hand when he spanked me - he believed, and he taught me that discipline was sometimes necessary, but that he loved me at all times and would always be there for me, in painful things and joyful things. My dad showing me love like that taught me that spanking wasn't about anger or power, it was times where discipline was really needed, and my parents took no pleasure in it. If spanked, I wasn't grabbed in anger hauled into a back room and "beat." First my parent would talk with me about what happened, what was done, why it was wrong, and consequences. Many times, I wouldn't get spanked at all. But if it was something my parents felt was necessary, after I would be spanked, my father or mother would often spend a lot of time talking with me and there was a great deal of affection, tenderness and forgiveness in our house to compliment the discipline.

One lesson I've remembered all my life - I was pretty young and I can't even remember what I had done, I only remember that I had done something I knew I shouldn't do. Most times my Mom was the disciplinarian, but this time it was Dad. Dad took my hand and took me back into a private room. I was sure that I was going to get it. Dad sat down on the side of the bed with me and said, "son, I want to teach you something that I hope you will remember all your life - I want to teach you about mercy, and being merciful." And my Dad proceeded to tell me stories and give examples of what it meant to be merciful to other people, and compassionate - and how many times in life someone might deserve to be punished, but need mercy or forgiveness. I remember he told me that sometimes there had to be consequences for behavior, but sometimes mercy was even more needed. He said that understanding the difference would be one of the ongoing questions of my life. After all of that, he reminded me of what I did and that it was wrong, then told me that today he wanted me to remember the idea of mercy and forgiveness and go out and play.

I never forgot that.

The reason why I believe spanking can work is when it is coupled with love, balance, compassion, strong communication and consistency in implementation. The most important reason why I think spanking worked was not only that it was always done with this spirit of reluctance and love, but also because discipline was consistent in my house. "spankings" were not handed out at the emotional whim of my parents. And they were not handed out often. But there were very clear and consistent rules of behavior that never changed. I was not allowed to be disrespectful to my parents. I could talk to them, ask questions, even disagree - but I could not be disrespectful.

Anyway, the bottom line is, in my house hold spanking was coupled with love - I never, ever doubted my parents love for me - as well as consistency and explanation: I understood what the expectations were of me, I knew my parents deeply loved me, I saw my parents share in my pain when they punished me, and there was an atmosphere of communication and trust built in our family.

Now, it could very well be that WE GOT LUCKY - and just happened to do everything right. Maybe there really is much better ways. I would be eager and open to looking into that. But I won't write off spanking in a knee jerk fashion, simply because of my own experience.

Sel

!!!!!golf clap!!!!!! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

. . and would benefit from spanking is foolishness.

Badly behaving kids are caused by parents who were that way when they were kids and back up the line of ineffective, poor parenting skills handed down through the generations.

Once the kid acts up by hitting his sister, throwing a tantrum at the store . . that's way too late to correct it. They grew into that behavior already. It wasn't just something they tried that day. They already knew that that was a way to get what they wanted and it worked in the past. They also knew it worked even better in public when it could be embarrassing to Mom and Dad.

It is the result of living in a chaotic family where there are no consistent rules and life becomes a game of what can you get away with today. Later that game turns into what can you get away with at school or at the job.

Consistent, reasonable rules take a lot of effort and don't come easy - especially to those who didn't grow up in that environment themselves. Very few parents provide that environment. For their kids or their dogs.

Instead, they fall back on their "strict father" role mentality that sees kids as inherently bad and the parents role is to enforce discipline - using physical punishment if necessary. It's the path of least resistandce.

And some parents really like having all that conflict in their life - conflict with those who they can always legally dominate and even legally abuse physically - their kids. They can always win the battle at home even if they have to put up with a lot of shit at work.

the kids are ruined for life. May as well lock them up now. :eyes:

. . that's just what will happen.

In most cases, it just leads to conflict, mistrust, violence and unhappy lives.

The 4 year old hitting his sister will just turn out to be like Manson. No reason to try to discipline him, physically or otherwise. Just lock him up now and save society the cost of even trying to educate him.


BTW- do you have any kids? Just wondering. :-)

I've also raised several hunting dogs. Pointers and retrievers.

*****************

The following applies just as much to dogs as to kids.

Badly behaving kids are caused by parents who were that way when they were kids and back up the line of ineffective, poor parenting skills handed down through the generations.

Once the kid acts up by hitting his sister, throwing a tantrum at the store . . that's way too late to correct it. They grew into that behavior already. It wasn't just something they tried that day. They already knew that that was a way to get what they wanted and it worked in the past. They also knew it worked even better in public when it could be embarrassing to Mom and Dad.

It is the result of living in a chaotic family where there are no consistent rules and life becomes a game of what can you get away with today. Later that game turns into what can you get away with at school or at the job.

Consistent, reasonable rules take a lot of effort and don't come easy - especially to those who didn't grow up in that environment themselves. Very few parents provide that environment. For their kids or their dogs.

Instead, they fall back on their "strict father" role mentality that sees kids as inherently bad and the parents role is to enforce discipline - using physical punishment if necessary. It's the path of least resistandce.

And some parents really like having all that conflict in their life - conflict with those who they can always legally dominate and even legally abuse physically - their kids. They can always win the battle at home even if they have to put up with a lot of shit at work.

spank them, then that's great.

But you seem unwilling to acknowledge that there may actually be some kids for whom that is the only kind of discipline which works (like my cousin). And that there are far too many parents who've given up on any discipline at all for fear that their children won't like them or won't think they're "cool" parents.

I can acknowledge that there are far too many parents who simply rely on the swat on the rear without any discussion of why the conduct is forbidden or harmful or even trying other forms of discipline. I would rather a parent fashion the discipline to the individual child. In that case, so long as it's not actual abuse, the discpline (of whatever kind) is far more likely to be EFFECTIVE. Which should be the goal, after all.

But then I know this is just my opinion, and I'm not raising their kids! Thank goodness! :-)

. . those are getting pretty scarce in this thread.

Actually, I did spank my kids occasionally. And I regret that now even though they came out OK. I wish I understood my parenting role better at the time. But I was falling back on what I had learned as a child. I don't think the spanking caused much of a problem as it was infrequent and mild (done with my hand, not a paddle, switch or belt).

But I think that was an indicator that my overall parenting skills - especially my understanding of my parenting role - was poor.

I think every new parent should make it their goal to learn as much about parenting before their child ever gets to the age that physical discipline may be necessary - that it never will be necessary. It requires more than learning - it often requires becoming a different kind of person. And few young parents are really ready to do that since they usually believe they have finally gotten away from their parents and can now be their own person.

The fact that some can only see permissiveness/spanking as the only options shows that within their worldview, they see their parenting role as:

Kid's are basically bad and will try to get away with whatever they can. Parent's job is to prevent that by punishment or just let them do what they want.

Those are both part of the "strict father" mindset. They only differ by how much effort the "strict father" is willing to put into it.

I was whipped and beat up frequently by my step mother. I ran away at 15 - from Texas.

PS - I learned much about parenting and about life in the process of learning to train my dogs. I believe the number of healthy happy people in the world would rise dramatically if every prospective parent was first required to raise a healthy, happy, non-neurotic, well-behaved, well-socialized dog to adulthood first. It took me several years to learn how to do that and I had to become a different person in several respects during that process.

Scrolling through this thread, I seem to notice that many of the proponents of occasional spanking, when warranted, are speaking as PARENTS. They're not talking about just OTHER PEOPLE'S KIDS, but from experience in raising their own.

Personally, I don't have any kids yet. But I do have a dog that is very well behaved. ;-)

I also know that my parents would occasionally give me a swat across the backside while growing up, and that I'm most certainly the better for it, so it's something I wouldn't rule out immediately when I have kids as one of many options for influencing behavior.

Quote: "Scrolling through this thread, I seem to notice that many of the proponents of occasional spanking, when warranted, are speaking as PARENTS. They're not talking about just OTHER PEOPLE'S KIDS, but from experience in raising their own."


you noticed that too......hehehehe

People that dont have kids..really have no clue. hahahah, no what so ever.....


Thats like saying your a Doctor..cause ya read a book one time!

:toast:

...at least several of the non-spankers also speak as parents, not as theorists.

However, there DO seem to be some wildly different views of precisely what "a spanking" entails.

I noticed several posts by parents who do not use spanking as a parenting technique. I'm not all the way through the thread yet, though :shrug:

From my own experience (as a child who was spanked) I will never use violence to punish or correct my children. My kids are smart, well mannered and well behaved.

I know what my reaction to being spanked was, and I refuse to inflict that pain on my children. There are other parenting techniques out there - I've learned and applied them.

I wouldn't punish my dog by hitting her either.

I was spanked and live a very normal life thesedays. Don't try to make a big deal of this. It's not.

here's what card told some delegates at the convention, if you forgot:

''It struck me ... that this president sees America as we think about a 10-year-old child, ''I know as a parent I would sacrifice all for my children."

:evilgrin:

she ever took it in the can. I bet she did!

just as easily be about their sexlife. It's exponentially more disgusting, but it could be, is all I'm sayin'.

I wonder if *they* were spanked as children ...

the repukes love?