A call for reason and respect

It's time for another discussion about the way we talk about people whose politics, policies and attitudes we don't like. Cases in point:

• I find all these personal attacks on Ann Coulter disturbing. To be clear, I despise everything I know of that she's written and said. But really, how immature is it to question whether she's biologically a woman or to talk about her appearance instead of her ideas, as often happens in the Lounge?


• The same goes for Rush Limbaugh's (or anyone else's) size. Doesn't he provide enough to talk about without making facile fat jokes? (Every fat joke is facile and uncreative, IMHO.)


• One way to really piss me off is to use "gay" or to question someone's heterosexuality as an insult.


• I don't think addiction is anything to mock either. Addiction deserves compassion (and maybe intervention), not derision. Any addict's hypocrisy about other addicts deserves exposure, not insult.

Don't tell me to lighten up. Are we not the party of real compassion? Is this how you want conservatives to act toward us? Is this how you want your children to act toward other children?

I'm dismayed to discover that I'm insufficiently evolved to respond with either reason and/or respect to the aforementioned slimeball poopyheads.

Also unable to detect any twinges of guilt over these grave failings.

especially the part about "poopyheads"

:silly:

that's why there are FARTS!

--IMM

"Don't Wanna Be A Freak...

But I Can't Help Myself..."

Okay, maybe not. It's sad when people can't hold conversations without making things personal.

Ann Coulter, yeah those are ad hominim attacks designed to make people feel better. She is a horrid, black hearted snake in the grass, to be sure. She and people like her make sane, rational people ill with their reactionary, fascist blather. Let people blow off a little steam. Its like gay people who claim Fred Phelps is a big closet case.

As for Rush and his drug addiction, and the drug addictions of anyone else like him: You reap what you sow. People aren't attacking Rush or anyone else simply because they are drug users. They are attacking Rush's hypocricy of years of bashing drug addicts, all the while being one himself.

Being gay myself, I don't like to hear people say "that is so gay." or "you are so gay." But the truth is, it is a defanged word. It is not appropriate to use gay like that, yet it is not a literal use of the word.

She's got the biggest, firmest Adam's Apple I've ever seen on a woman.

;)

She's got the biggest package since Forrest Tucker and Milton Berle

Ann Coulter fell out the ugly tree and only hit every other branch on the way down.

Thinking about it...I would f*ck her with a stolen dick

If Ann Coulter was on fire I WOULD piss her out.

FOR ME (NOT)TO POOP ON!

But, Limbaugh is a fucking hypocrite when it comes to drug addiction. He's in favor of cracking heads and long prison terms if a young black man is addicted to a drug, so fuck him.

On Coulter, I feel no regret about hurling any kind of venom at that viper. No comment about her is too outrageous.

with the bile they spew.

My mother used to say two wrongs don't make a right.

As one poster said yesterday, this society has become sociopathic.

"Let there be peace, and let it begin with me."

Kanary

i said i have no "compassion" for them. they are simply receiving back what they put out. if you spew hate, you get hate back.
juvenile comments about looks aside, these people need to be condemned in the strongest terms possible, whenever possible.
i do not advocate being like them, but i do advocate exposing them.
i don't think my opinion is much different than yours.

As far as compassion goes, I tend to think everyone deserves compassion. Do I always act that way? Of course not, but I think it's a pretty good ideal to work toward.

and of course "spewing hate" is not the answer. however...i cannot feel sorry for the ann coulters and rush limbaughs of the world because both of the have CHOSEN their course...and its inevitable outcome. and they sure as hell don't feel sorry for me or you...recall coulter's comments about "killing liberals?"
there is no one holding a gun to their heads, and there is no reason (other than their own conscience choosing) that they "spew hate." i don't think people like them are impoverished in spirit or intellect...they do what they do for profit, and i think they are well aware of the damage they cause. they simply don't care.
as to those who choose the same path...their outcomes will be the same.

DU is a place where people, more often than not, come to vent and express their true feelings.

since we value freedom of expression, you're going to hear words like 'fuck' and 'Limbaugh' used in the same sentence. I am trying to lay off the ad hominim attacks myself, but there'll be no stopping them entirely.


that said, i wholeheartedly applaud your post.

Dumping on Rush for being "fat" does the same to his victims..... other fat people.

Not only does it make us smaller, how in the world can that gain us allies among those who are above some given guideline of weight?

When we create or underscore victimization, I can't for the life of me understand what that accomplishes.

Maybe that's what you're saying.... I dunno....... with so few words, it's hard to get exactly where you are.

Kanary

there are enough real & substantial objections to these individuals not to lower ourselves to school-yard taunts. i despise coulter; cdnt care less if she's attractive or butt-ugly. has nothing to do w/ the damage she creates.

as to limbaugh; denial is the 1st & primary symptom of his disease; expecting him to take responsibility is naive.

we have more important things to concern ourselves w/.

There was a time for your views...but they have passed

If we don't fight dirty now....there will be nothing left to fight for later.

Take a look around you, This is do or die

I didn't get that memo. When did the time period for respecting other people expire?

that's when it expires. sorry...if someone points a loaded gun at me, i probably won't be concerned about "respecting" them. i will be most concerned about my own survival.
i don't advocate doing harm, but i will not "respect" people who do harm to me either.

...It started on the very first day Bush took office...

He slandered Clinton with a made up story about his administration trashing the WH

Respect went right out the window, sorry

Just the way it is

they cast vote recounting (a very routine, very normal practice) as an attempt to "steal" the election they ultimately stole. disenfranchising voters is not my idea of respect either.

*THAT'S* what I was missing!

Kinda like I missed how a bigger missile system defense system is going to make the world safer.

Boy, do I feel smarter now!

:shrug:

Kanary

I see what you're going for. In response to your approach I'll quote Lord Acton: "There are two things which cannot be attacked in front: ignorance and narrow-mindedness. They can only be shaken by the simple development of the contrary qualities. They will not bear discussion."

I ask you, is your response to the likes of Michael Savage and Sean Hannity to simply ignore them and pretend that they do not sway public opinion against the values for which you stand? (a hypothetical question, of course, as I don't know specifically your values). Is the idea encapsulated in the quote the general tenor of your response to the Hannitys and the Limbaughs of the world? Merely curious.

Demanding decency and a - gasp - actual commitment to the values we so gratuitously throw around in our rhetoric is not even remotely similar to "simply ignore(ing) them and pretend(ing) that they do not sway public opinion."

Contrary to Lord Acton, the greatest and most destructive lie ever to be unleashed on this modern society is the slander that says a person who actual lives by the values he or she preaches is weak, or that there is a time and a place for certain values, and a time and a place to suspend or ignore those values.

The response to the likes of Michael Savage and Sean Hannity is to meticulously and tirelessly speak the facts and the truth in the face of their lies. Passion and intensity do not have to mean vehemence and degenerate rage, personal slander, or abject hatred nor do passion and conviction have to tear from us every fiber of commitment to a better way - to statesmanship, compassion, solidarity, etc.

The most ridiculous and divisive notion in the world is this idea that while we're fighting the "good fight" we should set aside and suspend every noble value that we claim to cherish, only to magically begin actually putting these things into practice when we "win." The trouble is, we will never "win" in the sense that there will never be those who disagree with us - what's more the true test of integrity is the courage to hold true to values when it is complicated and hard, not when there is no opposition.

I don't believe in the shifting semantical values that acts as though there's one way to act when everyone agrees with us and another way to act with people don't. I am not willing to let my convictions be conditionalized by the likes of men like Hannity or Savage. I refuse to acknowledge their power to cause me to compromise my convictions on what I believe to be right. I refuse, though I know this is almost cliche, to stoop to their level. Their attitudes and actions represent everything that I despise. The absolute last thing I want to do in my life is act exactly like them I could care who the target is or how much they deserve it.

There is nothing - nothing at all - cowardly, timid or ineffective about an unyielding commitment to maintaining certain values and convictions even while boldly, forcefully, frequently, and loudly speaking out against the hateful, vicious neo-conservative pundits and spokespeople that we so often hear. I don't support the tactics of Sean Hannity or Michael Savage. But I don't support the tactics of you, or anyone else who believes that we can and should act exactly like these people. You do not represent what I value. You do not represent my beliefs and convictions when you claim that.

I believe in a certain kind of responsibility and behavior in our society as much as I believe in a living wage or in a just foreign policy. I do not accept nor would I endorse candidates or political operatives who believe that the most just and right course of action is to use all the indecent and disgusting (as well as insultingly ignorant) tactics of certain opponents in the name of "doing what's right."

That does not reflect who I am or what I believe in.

Note: no one, not a single person, acts perfectly in all circumstance. There has been more than one occasion where my own action hasn't lived up to my core beliefs. That's life. It happens. I try to make it right when I feel that I haven't acted in accordance with my deepest convictions, but no one will ever act without flaw. The difference is, when I act in ways that are as hateful as Mike Savage, I am convicted that I have been wrong and am able to recognize that I betray every good and necessary and just conviction of pursuing a more perfect union when I stumble into those kinds of attitudes.

Sel

But I don't support the tactics of you, or anyone else who believes that we can and should act exactly like these people. You do not represent what I value. You do not represent my beliefs and convictions when you claim that. <-------- I claimed nothing of the sort.

Excellent post, BTW.

on edit's edit: I see what you're saying. But I'm not quite sure where that post came from. Who among us is stating that in order to stand up to the likes of Hannity and Savage that we must resort to the same kind of slander and name-calling or that we must set aside our core principals? Not I. Merely asking Kanary (and you) the best way to refute some of the highly personal slanderous attacks launched on progressive liberals from radical, evangelical pundits.

I don't agree with the statement of Lord Acton and I probably equated that with your own perosnal position too closely.

I agree with you 100%.

However, I must admit that over the post year or so my own actions haven't lived up to those core beliefs you speak of in your post. Perhaps it is a natural, knee-jerk response to my world view being mercilessly attacked by the likes of Limbaugh, Coulter, and company out in the open, when before it was subtle. We tend to want to fight fire with fire. But I also realize that in and of itself may be a cop out.

That being said, lately I have been feeling less inclined to react with the same kind of rage as those on the right who dish it out. I'm not sure if it's because we are getting closer to the election or what. But I suspect it has more to do with having a better understanding where the other side is coming from after the first debate.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the other side at all. I think overall they are liars and approach the world in a way that is wrong...my view of the world is solidly planted from the left.

However, when we don't understand something or someone we feel threatened by, it's human nature to attack it. I was the most viscious towards the right when I had no clue what they were talking about, but just knew it was wrong. Perhaps that is what's happening on both sides?

I don't know if this is making any sense, so I will stop writing now.

I agree with your words, and commend your struggle to be true to *your* core beliefs. It's sure not an easy task, eh?

I also nod in agreement about running out of energy for rage. There's even a word for that..... "Outrage fatigue". :)

The only part I would add is that if I understand the original poster, this is not a call for expressing less outrage. I really do agree with the bumpersticker that if we're not outraged, we aren't paying attention. :)

I think what was being said is that there are constructive ways to express the outrage, and there are destructive ways. Using terms like "fat" that also include innocent bystanders are *destructive*. There are plenty of fat people who are not only decent people, but who give so much of themselves to our cause. Obviously, Michael Moore comes immediately to mind, but there are thousands of others whose efforts are important, but are unsung. To rip on Limbaugh for being fat is NOT the way to win friends and influence people, nor does it do anything at all to right the wrongs we are fighting against.

I hope this addition is of some use to you.

With good wishes.........

Kanary

this straw man:
"I ask you, is your response to the likes of Michael Savage and Sean Hannity to simply ignore them and
pretend that they do not sway public opinion against the values for which you stand? "

I refer you to my post # 51.

Kanary, who doesn't think for one moment that you are "merely curious".

What is it you suspect me of, if not curiosity?

Baiting.

In reading your posts I am curious how you would respond to the assaults that people like Hannity and Savage launch against liberal-progressivism. On a hunch, I guessed that your position may be in some way encapsulated in the words of Lord Acton and you view it as a form baiting you? Hmmmmm, I'm missing something.

Is the answer here? "We would be well surved to start to respect everyone's wishes in terms of kindness and curtesy, rather than 'I'll say what I damned well please and nobody can stop me, neener, neener, neener.'"

Here's another question, and I promise I'm not baiting you. Have you listened to Michael Savage's program recently? Just out of curiosity?

Whether it's on purpose, or to bait me, only *you* know.

Asking me whether I advocate "ignoring" them because I don't see bashing them with terms like "fat" , etc., is a strawman.

Quoting Lord Acton means you're smart enough to know there are other options besides "ignoring" or using derogatory terms that also hurts innocent people. Hence, my reply to refer to my post, which you apparently aren't willing to do, IS an ANSWER.

"Developing a spine does NOT require hardening the heart."

That is a very clear answer.

Kanary

I did read your post, originally and a few times again to try to glean the answer to my question. I didn't find it!

I think we are arguing close to the same point here as I certainly do not advocate bashing the bashers as a legitimate form of rebuttal to the lies they spew nor have I advocated any such thing in any of my posts.

I was merely trying to get at the heart of your philosophy in dealing with some of these very prevalent figures in our society who make entire careers dragging liberal-progresivism and its champions through the mud (iow, curios).

Thanks for your answer.

and one often overlooked.

I just don't respond well to a challenge given with hands on hips, and a challenging tone of voice. :)

I was just watching Sen. Byrd again this morning...... for the umpteenth time. Can anyone really assert that the man has no spine??? Sometimes I really marvel at his courage.

Yet, he wields a pocket constitution, rather than denigrating his opponents with slurs about "gay", or being too feminine, or "off their meds", or any of the other cheap shots.

IS it easy to get to that place of strong dignity? Hardly.

Can we do it? I have every confidence, if we so choose.

Kanary

What do you expect. These shitstains hijacked our country. Ann Coulter would flip the switch on me with glee. Why? I am dark skinned, a liberal and refused to ignore the shitstain she left on my country.

Don't make that mistake, or you risk becoming that which you hate.

I'm dismayed by the 'he's so gay' attacks. It's completely wrong. I hate Coulter but it offends me when she is referred to as a man. She is not but she is an evil snake.

Adding to your list, I hate using the word bitch and bitch slap. It's offensive to many of us. I recognize many feel it's OK, but I know many find it incredibly offensive. Let's use some sensitivity here.

It's the only thing that will cause awareness leading to change.

Asking people to be more considerate only gets abusive responses.

Alert.......

Kanary

left attacks, does that sound about left enough. That no good son of a gun that keeps feeding people the wrong information all the time.

There I said it, you keep playing nice and let them play dirty and see who ends up the winner.

calling Kerry French is that good to you? How long will it take them before they start calling everyone names, gooks, niggers, koons etc.
They probably doing now as we speak.




:mad:

infamous tapes.

That doesn't explain how it helps anything for us to do the same in retaliation........?

And, it certainly doesn't explain why it's acceptable to use sexist terms because "They" use racist terms....??????

Kanary

how will you suggest we attack them, in the words of that moron Zell "sticks and spears" or "toothpick" please enlighten me.

Do you really, seriously, not "get" that there are other ways of standing up to aggression other than to denegrate innocent people??? Really??

Is that really what you are saying?

????????????????????

Kanary, who would like for others to drop the anger, and just discuss, if they really want "answers"

an attack at the issue, I just don't think it is acceptable for an individual to call me names without me responding, surely there is a limit to everything we do, yes the Bible say 'if someone hit you on your chick turn the other side for him to hit' that is surely a myth, because it is the same Bible that talks about retribution, 'an eye for an eye'

this is so simple, they play nice we play nice, they play ugly we play ugly, we don't have to be a brain surgeon to work this out.

It's anything *BUT* simple.

Tell me this...... do you consider people like Sen. Byrd, Bishop Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy...... etc., to be wimps who didn't/don't respond to hate?

I would appreciate it if you would give a thoughtful answer, rather than a defensive one.

Kanary, who sincerely wishes it *WAS* simple!!

by this I meant, we respond to a certain situation differently depending on our frame of mind.

As for the above mention, I do not consider them weak or wimps, they are strong in their own sense or right, but I would not have taken so much as they did.

Let me use Nelson Mandela as an example, he accepted (key word accepted)what was thrown toward him because he has no choice, he tried to fight but could not win, he tried different method but was met by rigorous effort to tarnish whatever motive they had, eventually they learned and use the oppositions' way, their own game to play them, now it took a long time but he won in the end.

Our argument here is playing them at their own game, its 'tit-for-tat' whatever they throw at us we throw it back double at them, if we keep thinking that we have to be fair then we will end up loosing. The difference with us is we don't have time, its either now or too late.

This has always been the problem in the Democratic party most people are for playing fair, when are they going to learn that the opposition does not play fair. The opposition plays to win, not to lose, how many lives do we have to lose to understand whats at stake.

Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy lost their lives playing fair, Nelson Mandela wasted his life in jail playing fair, I personally allow people to take cheap shot at me and it hurts most of the time, other time I give back what I get, its a give an take.

We should learn from history, its the same people that are now playing the same game, or their Grand children, if we don't unite now we will never unite again.

It has gotten worse thats why everywhere you look you see sign of Neo-Cons.





:think:

an "argument", rather than any attempt at understanding.

I'm simply not interested in some duel, so this will be it for me. You can think about it, and maybe consider that there is something beyond the horizons you have set for yourself, and that possibly the original poster, me and a few others have something woth thinking about, or you can have the last word, and blow me to bits. It's all up to you.

I'm not interested in whether you could do what Robert Kennedy did (you're in no danger of being shot, and you know that, and know that *I* know that you know!), or any of that other rationalizing. The fact of the matter is, NONE of them, as angry as they were for very legitimate reasons, dumped their anger on innocent people, "just because". They didn't dump on their oppressors because they were fat, or gay, or any of those other excuses.

"by this I meant, we respond to a certain situation differently depending on our frame of mind."

Of course. Some have used that frame of mind to call others niggers, kikes, gooks, and other ugly names, and have burned crosses, begun pogroms and bombed the shit out of countries. It's all up to us how we choose to deal with our "frame of mind".

I can't for the life of me understand your constant defending of the "right" to, in effect, bomb the shit out of someone who pisses you off, even though the shrapel from your bomb hurts innocent people. That's what you'll have to answer to your maker about, not me.

One of the examples was yelling about Rush being fat. So what?! Do you really not have any concern at all for the other fat people who already suffer from the discrimination this society?? What about Michael Moore? He's fat..... your dismissal of him, as shrapnel from your attack on Rush, wipes out Michael Moore as well.

I'm sure you're capable of understanding this. I know that you are able to grasp this simple concept. Be angry all you want. But, you use that anger to hurt people who are already suffering enough, and you have done the verbal equivalent bombing innocent people. At some point, it becomes necessary to consider that maybe the way you've always done things isn't always the most productive. Maybe the way you've always defended your actions is the same way the RW defends theirs. If we truly want a better society, we all have to look into ourselves, and question all those parts that simply aren't creating peace, or a better world. I know you can understand this. It's a matter of if you want to.

If not, then you really have nothing to complain about when *YOU* are caught in someone else's shrapnel.

Kanary

A drug addict states drug addicts are human refuse.
A woman says women are weak and stupid.
A closeted homosexual makes fun of homosexuals.

If I am to take these people at their word....and respect that word and the person who utters it....How pray tell am I being disrespectful If I concur with the fat man that his fatness is something to be made fun of or judged?

How, pray tell, am I being disrespectful if I concur with him that his drug addiction renders him human refuse?

How, pray tell, am I being disrespectful if I concur with the woman that she is weak and stupid.

How, pray tell, am I being disrespectful if I concur with the closeted homosexual that his homosexuality warrants derision?

Quite the contrary....I am NOT being disrespectful. I am demonstrating the highest degree of respect one can possibly demonstrate for such individuals....I am reflecting that which they have demonstrated is their own measure of fellow human beings and as astonishing as it may be to them, of themselves. Ones opinion of another's perceived foibles must first be contrasted with their own and judged in those terms. It is not a judgment of the perceived foible I put forward when I concur with the hypocrite on his or her own terms. It is a sharp and intentional indictment of that hypocrisy.

You see fat people aren't funny....fat people who make fun of fat people are funny.

Drug addicts aren't human refuse....drug addicts who state drug addicts are human refuse are human refuse.

Women aren't weak and stupid....women who assert women are weak and stupid are weak and stupid.

Homosexuals are not worthy of derision....Closeted homosexuals who make fun of homosexuals are worthy of derision.

I shall judge them as they judge others.

To those who suggest I owe intentionally, vicious, rapacious, hypocrites the same sort of respect I do the innocent and defenseless they bully torment and abuse....It is their victims whom are being treated with disrespect....and it is you who is treating them so.

RC

Deep down, you know that perpetuating the abuse is wrong.

And, you know that I know that you know that.

Passing the blame onto the other bigot doesn't get you off the hook for your own complicity.

It's simple, really. YOU are responsible for your part in the mess we have to straighten out.

Rationalization, defensiveness, fancy verbal footwork changes nothing.

Your Part Is Your Part.

Kanary

I know that I am perpetuating nothing....I am ending it. I am giving the hypocrite his just deserts....that which he asked for...his own demise on his own terms.

Abuse is defined as language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily. What can be more just than to judge someone in their own terms?

What mess have we to straighten out? The only mess I see, is not holding people responsible for the shit that comes out of their mouths.....Not holding them to the same standards to which they hold others or convincing ourselves that a lack of will to kill a rhetorical syphilitic infection is somehow taking the high road.

The reason we have Rush Limbaugh's and Anne Coulters running around is because they aren't dealt with quickly and harshly. They are like a kid in a store who screams and cries to get attention, tears things up and ruins peoples shopping day while mommy and daddy and everyone else stand by and do nothing. No sorry..that sort of crap isn't taking the high road...if it's my store your going to take your kid outside....and if your my kid your going to be asked if you really want the attention you seem so eager to get....and if your behavior indicates that you do...you gonna get the sort of attention that you'll never want again.

There is no rationalization...no defensiveness and no fancy verbal footwork...there is what there is...you poke me or mine in the eye because you've gotten away with it with other folks and you'll be in for a truly vicious surprise. One which will inspire you never to make a similar err in judgment.

Taking the high road in my book is ending the bad behavior....not allowing it to continue unchallenged....swallowing the shit that a monkey throws in your face isn't taking the high road...it's being a shit eater.

I once had a roommate who let her cat do whatever the hell he wanted to do....including taking craps on my couch. I told her to train her cat not to shit on my couch...she replied that there was no way she could. I said, "let me demonstrate" grabbed her cat by the back of the head and ground his little face into his own shit till about a quarter inch was packed up his nostrils. He never shit on my couch again. He was the perfect little gentleman and shit in his box from that day forward. He and I got along in grand style after that. He treated me with respect and I treated him with respect. Respectful treatment by others is something that one maintains by not acting like a prick, earns....and or deserves....it is not something one is entitled to regardless of devious, malicious, deceitful and dishonest behavior.

How's that for fancy verbal footwork? :)

RC

By vilifying ALL fat people?

By turning away others who would be interested in fighting to get back their country, because they have been vilified by you, in a careless manner?

Yes, You Are Perpetuating the same mess of racism, sexism, and all the other discrimination that has gone on in this country for all these eons.

I'm sure you know the difference between standing up to liars and seeking justice, and name calling that hurts innoncent people.

I know that you know that difference.

Kanary

As a gay man, I learned a long time ago...A bully only attacks those he/she or, in Coulter's case, it perceives as weak.

Bullies perceive your philosophy as weakness, as nice as it is.

Bullies only understand the language that they use, be it verbal or physical.

When a Bully's traditional victim responds in kind to his attacker, the victimization stops.

At least, that has been the case, in my life.

if not from the perspective of feminist lit.

using sexist or racist innuendos. I don't think I understood your point.

My point is to insult and use degrading terms without resorting to sexist or racial slurs. I think all of us can be creative enough to come up with enough slurs.

The rules here don't support "reason and respect", so anything goes that doesn't directly break the rules.

In any online forum I've ever seen, the more bombastic people eventually drive off the softer ones, and the atmosphere becomes harsher and harsher. All in the name of "freedom of speech". It's what the majority is choosing, I guess. :( :( :( :(

I would add to your list:

1. Mocking those who, for one reason or another, take any form of prescription mood-altering drugs. While I don't believe in those drugs myself, not only are they widely prescribed, but if the RW gets their way in "screening" the whole country for "mental illnes", many of us right here on DU will be forced into this, and most of us know that.

2. Along those lines, criticism for those who express emotions. There is not only nothing wrong with being upset, afraid or simply down. In fact, those who don't experience any of these emotions aren't really experiencing what it's like to be human. Someties it seems like the only emotion that is accepted here is anger. Turning all emotion into anger isn't a constructive way to build a more peaceful society.

3. Harsh and judgemental statements about poor people, and their motives. I see statements here that are every bit as ugly as what is said about poor people by the RW.

4. The ongoing SEXISM. Really, can't we outgrow this, after all these years.

I'm sure others have their own areas of disrespect that they are aware of and that hurt them. We would be well surved to start to respect everyone's wishes in terms of kindness and curtesy, rather than "I'll say what I damned well please and nobody can stop me, neener, neener, neener."

Kanary, who's been here long enough to know that no call for respect will ever be heeded......... sigh...... :(

by replying to mine. I agree with you, too. I do not want everything to be all wishy-washy, but I think some of the types of attacks you, the original poster, and I listed are too hurtful. I haven't really noticed the attacks against those taking Rx mood-altering drugs (probably a good thing, too, since I am one of those people).

I understand when sometimes one is angry and posts insults -- hey, I've done some not-so-nice posts myself but usually in response to posts such as those we are discussing. I guess my main complaint is generalizations of groups of people. Ugh! Drives me bonkers.

I think I'm beginning to ramble now :)

I struggle with exactly what you're saying..... it's very hard to rise above blind anger. That's why this is so important to me.

Above all, what I want is a world of non-violence, and respect for ALL. We don't create that, and build that by denigrating whole groups with our blind anger and the hatred of the RW, or any other hate group. We change the world by looking inside ourselves, and changing there what needs to be changed. NO MOVEMENT TO REALLY BRING ABOUT CHANGE HAS DONE IT WITHOUT LOOKING INSIDE FIRST.

Sorry to yelll... I know you get it, but I'm really frustrated by some of the obtuse responses I've gotten. See, I get carried away, too. :) :hi: :)

The denegrating remarks I was referring to about those who take Rx mood-altering drugs are all thoughtless invectives about "Off their meds", etc. I'm sure you've noticed the prevalence of all that stuff. Again, it just points at groups of people, rather than the actions of the hateful ones we are trying to combat.

I understand your hurt. I hope you will continue to speak up!

Yours in the struggle....

Kanary

I don't take prescription mood altering drugs that are not prescribed and make my living suggesting everyone but me who get's caught doing so should go to the slammer for 25 to life.....and if I did I would suggest that anyone who wanted to refer to me as a drugged out piece of shit would have every right to do so.

RC

piece of shit", as you so quaintly put it?

That's the point.

Reread the original post.

Please.

Kanary

who do the same sure as hell does....and that's the point. Holding a mirror in front of someone perpetuates nothing...treating a greedy, rapacious prick intentionally hiding behind a curtain of hypocrisy while stuffing money in his pockets with the kindness one might for a person who has a problem and doesn't do the same, perpetuates hypocrisy. An intentionally vile person who wields the sword of hypocrasy should die by that sword.


That's what you seem to have difficulty understanding.

RC

Limpballs deserves EVERYTHING we ever say about him. How many years has he been on the radio? 20 years? He's had free rein to bad mouth Democrats for all those years. He had no sympathy for other drug offenders who were busted and sent to jail. Limpballs will never get an ounce of sympathy from me. he a piece of shit and I hope his ass ends up in prison.

And Ann, the man, Coulter? :puke: She is the most VILE creature to step foot on this earth. She never has anything "kind" come out of her fat trap. EVER. I've never, ever, ever, ever heard her say a nice word about ANY Democrat. I'll be damned if I ever have a kind word to say about her. She's a damn wench.

As for the "gay" name calling, I agree....not nice at all. I've never seen anyone on DU say that, but I never go to the lounge. :shrug:

That's just how it goes.

Kanary

about some ass hole once they have died.

People need to convey their feelings about the repubs and being limited in vocabulary, I cannot say things like Will Pitt could, so I have to use words that you may not like but using them is how I conveyed my feelings.

To not use them would be to not communicate my feelings which is the reason we use them in the first place.

Besides, sometimes when you play nice the other guy takes advantage of you and you lose.

During this bumpy ride in the trumbel cart, let's see how "nice" we can act towards our tormenters. We'll be so chipper, to borrow a phrase from "Vacation", we'll be whistling Zippady-Do-Da out of our assholes. It's a passive-aggressive tactic, so that after they guillotine us they'll feel just terrible.

"We" here at DU or "we" the Democratic Party? Two entirely different animals.

Many come here to DU to gripe and bitch and complain about all things from the DLC to Ann Coulter to Rush and their complaints are a direct result of a very concerted attack by conservatives and the religious right on liberal-progressives.

There is a lot at this sight that is geared towards mobilizing the electorate and taking action. There's at least an equal ammount here that is geared specifically towards the "bitch factor" and, frankly, I think it helps a lot of people cope with witnessing these aggressive assholes rape our country and demonize liberals for the past four years plus.

That said, it does bother me when hearsay is the basis for personal attacks (Drudge is gay??) but hey, the truth of the matter is if there's any pundit or political persuasion in the country that's prone to that kind of pracitce...well you know which one it is.

Bottom line, this is a message board for progressive liberals. If you haven't noticed, we're being demonized by some real ugly people out there and more than a few of "us" are pissed about it. Personally I think you DO need to lighten up. If you want real substantive matters contained within the party you need to be carrying on online debates at the DLC or DNC website.

PS Have you listened to Michael Savage lately?

You know, a good percentage of conservatives think Michael Savage is an idiotic jackass as well as Rush. People like Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter are unreasonable and disingenuous in their claims and attacks.

It's understandable that liberals and progressives feel unfairly attacked by the far right, because they are. That same feeling is shared by the conservatives, that they are stridently attacked, belittled and mocked by the far left, because they are.

It's frustrating to us in the middle who actually want to discuss issues and how to better this country because it's hard to get around the vitriol generated on both sides. However when you say, well this forum is designed to come here and release that vitriol, then it just piles additional bitterness and anger on top of the mess we already have.

I criticize and try to debunk the far right wing (and far left) ad hom and ridiculous arguments in conversations whenever I am confronted with them, which actually works more than you'd think if you stay calm and reasonable. The bitterness simply shuts down communication completely.

a good percentage of conservatives think Michael Savage is an idiotic jackass as well as Rush. People like Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter are unreasonable and disingenuous in their claims and attacks. If this is true, where are the reasoned, enlightened conservatives who attempt to undo the spin that these folks spew every day? Why do their ilk monopolize the radio dial? Please tell me where the thoughtful, measured, decent conservatives of the day are, because I'm definitely missing them. The ones who say America coming of age in the world not coming to dominate the world? I understand that these people do not speak for most conservatives because I come from a family of thoughtful, reasoned conservatives but I would bet that the majority fo the country doesn't know that. I would wager that the majority of the American public thinks your average conservative acts and talks a lot like Sean Hannity or Michael Savage! I'll ask again, why aren't thoughtful conservatives stepping up to the plate to refute this garbage? They've had nigh on twenty years to do so.

However when you say, well this forum is designed to come here and release that vitriol <---- please go back and read what I actually said and get back to me.

To a degree, this is largely a "chicken or the egg" type of argument.

Where exactly are these enlightened conservatives?

Why don't we ever hear their voices?

I'll tell you why:

These people are afraid to speak up against Coulter and its ilk.

"I Have No Fear!"

because their minds are already made up. DU was creating for those on the left side of the spectrum...progressives and liberals. see the hate mailbag for a sample of the vitrol sent this way on a regular basis.

LOL yeah, that hate-mailbag is pretty bad. I really do hope that those morons are the fringe, and not the mainstream. I don't personally know people that vitriolic on either side, and the people I know are pretty involved in politics. To be fair though...comments that are pretty similar but pointed the other direction are posted here regularly. That's the point of this thread.

I would assume that the most fringe elements on both sides are really responding to and goading each other on, rather than looking at the more mainstream rational discussions.

but sometimes you have to really hang in there and get past the noise...misconceptions, stereotypes, etc.
i'm not sure there is anything remotely rational about bush, inc though...which makes rational discussion of its policies almost impossible.
i'm not sure "the fringe" is truly a problem, except of course on the right. nader, for example, only got % of the vote in 2000.

look...this country (and the world) is in deep trouble precisly because of the people pushing the neo-con agenda. it's high time we all stop pretending THIS is "politics as usual" and continue to wring our hands about how "nice" we are in opposition to death and destruction. the only radicals that concern me at this time are bush, inc and its misguided supporters in the voting population.

sure...it's juvenile to attack rush because he's overweight; it's juvenile to attack coulter because of the way she looks...this is a no brainer. but for god's sake: we're in big trouble here...and people like coulter and rush are definitely NOT a part of the solution. but they wield far too much power and influence to simply be dismissed as the lunatics rational folks know them to be.

...these "hate-mailers" are probably not on the fringe. Think about Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly and Ann Coulter, and the kinds of nasty things they say about "liberals" over and over and over again on a regular basis. When you're constantly exposed to that, it feeds a slow growth of pure hate, and the refusal to accept that any good person can be a "liberal." These hate-mailers are safe at work or at home, and, I think, are expressing their true feelings. They feel safe enough to do it 'cause it's not in public, and there are no witnesses, just words on the screen, and can let it all out. I bet you'd be surprised to see some of the people who wrote some of those hate mails.

Okay. I do "get " the whole concept of acting in a manner befitting our core philosophies as Democrats: respecting the individual, not demonizing folks for their gender/sexual orientation/politics, studying the issues in depth and countering spin and lies with reasoned, verifiable arguments and facts.

Nice work if you can get it.

To some, this strugggle may be about presenting an image, or controlling the message, or working toward the peace we all so deeply desire.

At 45, it's not about image or message or peace anymore.

The bible speaks of people claiming "Peace, peace when there is no peace."

And there is no peace. I cherish each moment with my 20 and 18 year olds. This is about their LIVES. This is about the freedoms Americans are guaranteed by their Constitution. I consider it a contract, paid for in blood. And I'll be DAMNED ( bile rises in throat) if anyone is going to get away with supporting the treasonous act of denying me the right to that contract.


Savage, Coulter and Limpdick have made their $$$ advocating the treason. They have supported the man who threatens my children's lives and future. I come here to vent ( so I don't vent on Repukes nearby) and I reserve the right, and the Constitutional Right, in case you forgot, to express myself as the spirits of anger, rage, pain and yes, fear move me. Savage and Limpdick are the guys who encourage and bait men into doing what several did to me in georgia this weekend - namely trying to run me off the road (with my 10 year old in the car). What was my crime? I was driving with a Kerry sticker on my car. Sorry, but vile men like these two deserve every nasty insult you or I can imagine.

There are plenty of intellectual threads on DU. I suggest the ignore button and an open mind. We are not all the same. I wish people understood THIS about each other....

Conservatives do act that way towards us and they're never going to stop.

Let's play nice with Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh. But let's "be honest" and play scorched earth with our own Dems if they don't do every single thing the way we think they should. :crazy:

We're in a war we have to win. First we rough 'em up a bit, then we can go in with intelligence and common sense.

...a "Be Nice to Homegrown Fascists Day"...or something.

"Take a Chimp To Work" day.

I agree with you on the gay and overweight issues. The ones that really bother me though are:
1. trashing certain regions of the country -- assuming everyone in that region is a repuke or stupid. Boggles my mind.
2. labeling someone a repuke based on how they look. Someone please explain that one to me! I've known ACTUAL cowboys that had only voted democratic, so-called "trailer trash" that had never voted republican, etc.

My post #15 also adds others, and the request that we all listen to the lists of others.

Hope you can respond to that.

:hi:

Kanary

but when i drive home from work and every station has spew radio, all that dems and liberals are stupid and lazy and the Clinton's are child eating alien monsters, and nothing else, be it clear channel, sports stations, FM rock, or now even NPR, it tends to piss me off. It isn't compassion that will bring us our voice on our airwaves back. I understand where you are coming from, but enough is enough.

<eom>

Have dinner perhaps?

Reason,however,would be a welcome change for the entire human race :)

Just kidding. :)

I'm in total agreement with you, pagerbear. I think people should be judged by what comes out of their mouths and the right wing has given us plenty of ammo to ridicule them with in that regard. And I agree that calling a person gay to suggest that they are inferior or scandalous is very demeaning to gay people.

Karl Rove is busy planning his next smear against a decorated Vietnam veteran.

So, who's the bad guy?

righteous anger that hurts innocent people.

Crapping on all gay people in order to point out hypocrisy is like bombing a whole country because there may be some "evildoers" hiding out there.

Same with all the other blasts that we unthinkingly use that hurts others. If we don't care about those we hurt, then isn't that exactly the same as what we're criticising in the RW? How does that make us any better?

All through history, revolutions have fallen into the trap of instituting some of the very things they fought and lost lives to rid themselves of. The time comes to learn a bit from history.

We all want to justify our reactions. If we truly want a better world, we need to be willing to look at our ownselves from time to time.

Kanary

so I'm the same as Karl Rove because I compared Annthrax to a male zombie. You must be joking.

I am not so insecure with myself, or wallowing in hurt, childhood feelings that someone calling Drudge or Lindsay Graham "Gay" is going to make me cry.

And if calling Graham or Drudge "gay" gets under their skin and bothers them, I say "Go For It."

I only wish I could say just half of what I post to these "people's" faces.

My GOD,BOTH have done NOTHING but attack Democrats personally for YEARS. This goes back a hell of alot longer than DU has been around.

They've bashed,ridiculed,hated and generally tormented the ENTIRE Clinton family for more than a FUCKING decade but your worried in Ann Coulter gets called Ann"the man"Coulter??

When the Clinton attacks got stale and a new candidate for President emerged they started anew with the "French looking" John Kerry. They've renewed the same hateful,childish name calling shit they did to Clinton,yet NOW we should play nicey nice??

Go ahead,play softball with the likes of Limbaugh. He'll kick you in the nuts when your not looking.

David

And yet look who prevailed Tuesday night. All with a smile on his face.

Just kidding. :)

:cry:

:(

It's *very* discouraging to see so little understanding of that simple fact.

:(

Kanary

They're a parasitic sort of disease...and they will eventually eat away at you until you die. Do you ignore them and hope they'll just go away? Do you call them something other than what they are and hope they'll just go away? Or do you call them what they are, recognize what they are doing and destroy them with prejudice?

RC

I don't think you are saying that one can't call someone a *(&(*&*(. But the specific examples you provided are the kinds of things I find immature and objectionable too.

So is commenting on physical features rather than substance. We can still do smack-down on neo-fascists without that kind of thing. Unfortunately, I've found that I've picked up teen vocabulary online and everything is "gay this" and "gay that." Totally not OK, so I'm going to stop.

Al Franken, when he titled his book, Rush Limbaugh is a Big, Fat Idiot, was being ironic. He pointed out in the text that the reason he did so was that the right "set the tone" and he was merely pointing out their hypocrisy. I don't have any problems with what Franken did, as long as it's done to highlight hypocrisy. I know some will disagree with me. *shrug*

As for the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity, I'm not interested in showing them "compassion" when they would throw me to the lions in a heartbeat. They helped turn my family into a bunch of bushbots. Even though my family were complicit, had there been no Limbaughs and Hannitys, they might not be so far gone today. I cry internally every single fucking day over this loss. Limbaugh and Hannity can kiss my ever-loving ass.

As I said in a response above,

The response to the likes of Michael Savage and Sean Hannity is to meticulously and tirelessly speak the facts and the truth in the face of their lies. Passion and intensity do not have to mean vehemence and degenerate rage, personal slander, or abject hatred nor do passion and conviction have to tear from us every fiber of commitment to a better way - to statesmanship, compassion, solidarity, etc.

The most ridiculous and divisive notion in the world is this idea that while we're fighting the "good fight" we should set aside and suspend every noble value that we claim to cherish, only to magically begin actually putting these things into practice when we "win." The trouble is, we will never "win" in the sense that there will never be those who disagree with us - what's more the true test of integrity is the courage to hold true to values when it is complicated and hard, not when there is no opposition.

I don't believe in the shifting semantical values that acts as though there's one way to act when everyone agrees with us and another way to act with people don't. I am not willing to let my convictions be conditionalized by the likes of men like Hannity or Savage. I refuse to acknowledge their power to cause me to compromise my convictions on what I believe to be right. I refuse, though I know this is almost cliche, to stoop to their level. Their attitudes and actions represent everything that I despise. The absolute last thing I want to do in my life is act exactly like them I could care who the target is or how much they deserve it.

There is nothing - nothing at all - cowardly, timid or ineffective about an unyielding commitment to maintaining certain values and convictions even while boldly, forcefully, frequently, and loudly speaking out against the hateful, vicious neo-conservative pundits and spokespeople that we so often hear. I don't support the tactics of Sean Hannity or Michael Savage. But I don't support the tactics of anyone who believes that we can and should act exactly like these people. They do not represent what I value. They do not represent my beliefs and convictions when you claim that.

I believe in a certain kind of responsibility and behavior in our society as much as I believe in a living wage or in a just foreign policy. I do not accept nor would I endorse candidates or political operatives who believe that the most just and right course of action is to use all the indecent and disgusting (as well as insultingly ignorant) tactics of certain opponents in the name of "doing what's right."

That does not reflect who I am or what I believe in.

Note: no one, not a single person, acts perfectly in all circumstance. There has been more than one occasion where my own action hasn't lived up to my core beliefs. That's life. It happens. I try to make it right when I feel that I haven't acted in accordance with my deepest convictions, but no one will ever act without flaw. The difference is, when I act in ways that are as hateful as Mike Savage, I am convicted that I have been wrong and am able to recognize that I betray every good and necessary and just conviction of pursuing a more perfect union when I stumble into those kinds of attitudes.

Sel

I really appreciated your comments. thank you

however...
fear of the mythical middle seems to drive some more than actual integrity and statesmanship. of course there are some notable exceptions, but i am still very disappointed about the lack of integrity and acquiesence that got us precisely where we are right now.
it will be interesting to see what happens this time...if the rw decides to steal the election again.

I understand you are afraid of being weak to the point of going more center...... certainly I share that. In spades!

What I'm not following is how asking for more reason and politeness is ........ connected with the RW stealing the election....?

Kanary

how can reason and politeness work with people who don't value reason or politeness?

those who prefer to steal elections, for example, because they know they can't win them...the ruthless and amoral ones.

ultimately...i am concerned about another election theft, and another resonable and polite response from the opposition...the macro dynamic of this issue.

as the the micro dynamic...i am in total agreement.

There are some current terms that reveal my basic ignorance. :)

noiretblu, I completely share your dismay about dealing with "people who don't value reason or politeness". It's so depressing to me that this is what my country has come to, that somedays I just want to find a quiet cave somewhere. Actually, there aren't words for me to express the depts of despair I feel about the real degradation to our beautiful country.

HOWEVER, it's also impossible for me to stress too strongly that I also can't work side-by-side with those who would use that righteous anger to inflict damage on innocent bystanders. It's only a matter of degree that seperates that from the dropping of bombs on Iraquis. As a fine teacher of non-violence once said, "We have to learn to do more than change the content without changing the process. Changing the process is harder, but is the only way to peace."

I'm about to the point of being cross-eyed now, so I hope that makes some sense. :hi:

Kanary

and i understand your despair...i share it. micro...i was referring to the personal kind of civility this thread is about. i don't think name-calling and agression is productive either...at the same time, i understand the frustration of those who feel they have no more cheeks to turn.
as to the ruthless ones and the election...i am hopeful that enough of us will say: ENOUGH...this stops NOW!!!!!!!!!

your understanding wounds you so ((((kanary))))...i call it "the terrible knowledge."
to whom much is given, much is expected...i applaud your efforts here today.

growing up black in america gives one a pretty good understanding of the power of hatred...and how it destroys the hater, ultimately, no matter how justified one feels in hating back.

peace.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: "terrible knowledge", indeed!

Sometimes it's just much more than I can bear........ but I suspect your know that....... :pals:

Yes, I fully understand why some have lashed out in return. As Selwynn so eloquently put it, while I try to live up to my ideals, I sometimes fail miserably. :(

And, yes...... I also believe, because of my hard life experiences, that many people only learn compassion the hard way..... by experiencing pain themselves. I don't really understand that, but chalk that up to having the misfortune to be born a very sensitive person, who actually does feel the pain of others. My son inherited the same trait -- I remember him as a toddler, hearing a baby cry, and barely able to walk himself, going over to the baby, and trying to comfort it. Some of us just can't ignore the pain of others.

While I understand the frustration that leads people to call names, I insist that we continue to look up to the likes of Bishop Tutu, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandella, Robert Kennedy, Chief Seattle, Queen Liliuokalani, and so many other worth heroes and sheroes who have gone before.

And, sometimes the strain of it pisses me off! :hi: :) :hi:

A grateful Kanary

i haven't had a chance to read it yet, but i thought is might help with this feeling:

Weltschmerz

n : sadness on thinking about the evils of the world


i will be sure to let you know if it does help. i suppose this is as good a time as any to say that i have admired your thoughtful posts for some time. you do make a difference here...at least i am listening :D

blessings...peace...light...and love :grouphug:

Parts of it describe me *perfectly*, and it was such a relief to get that validation!

Whether you find much of it applies to you or not, it will certainly give you understanding of others. I think it should be reuired reading for EVERY teacher! While camping, I met a teacher and highly recommended the book. Bless her heart, she wrote it down, and thanked me for the recommendation! I think a lot of teachers are the *best*! :)

THank you so much for those kind words. I actually do try, but sometimes feel so damned isolated. It really does help to know you think that. :loveya:

Kanary

You can wallow in your "depts" of glorious despair to your purer-then-thou heart's content.

I'll stay and fight these Nazi Fucks on whatever turf they chose!

Noiretblu...or anyone who cares to weigh in on this issue...

I can tell this is going to be inflammatory...which I really really don't mean it to be...but...

regarding the right wing stealing the election, can you give me your reasons for believing the election was stolen?

From what I understand, in the 2000 election, the Florida vote was close, so the ballots were recounted twice, as mandated by law. The limit was set at two recounts because the ballots were fragile and would degrade...is what I thought I heard. Then when the state went to certify the results the lawsuits were filed and the supreme court ended up deciding that the recounts should end, as mandated by Florida state law.

Now once again, I'm not trying to argue this issue, just hear your perspective on it. I am very new to this community, and I really haven't ever heard an explanation of *why* the election was considered stolen...simply that it was stolen.

Thanks

wait and see the response you will get on that topic plus references.


:nopity:

their decision to stop the recount was a bogus one. they ignored legal precedents, common sense and the constitution and created a one-time only law for george bush. as the the ballots being "degraded"...that was pure self-serving nonsense.
and finally...after the faux election...just before 911, as you may recall...a news organization that gore actually WON florida.
so...there you have it: bush, inc completely illegimate, and certainly didn't "win" anything.
a partisan court intervened in what should have been left to the state of florida for the sole purpose of declaring bush the winner....vincent bugliosi believes thay committed treason by doing so. you should check out this book on the subject:

"The Betrayal of America: How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose Our President"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/156025355X/102-5825245-5935368

Well written and enlightening

to this day I know people who simply won't, cannot believe the presidential election could be stolen but it was. And believe they will do it again - the stuff going on in Florida right now is despicable.

1. John Nichols, JEWS FOR BUCHANAN: DID YOU HEAR THE ONE ABOUT THE THEFT OF THE AMERICAN PRESIDENCY?

2. Vincent Bugliosi, THE BETRAYAL OF AMERICA: HOW THE SUPREME COURT UNDERMINED THE CONSTITUTION AND CHOSE OUR PRESIDENT.

3. Greg Palast, THE BEST DEMOCRACY MONEY CAN BUY. (Particularly Chapter 1, which is about the 2000 election.)

If you're serious about wanting an explanation of why people believe that the 2000 election was stolen, those books will answer your questions.

Wow. I loved the following statement, Selwynn. I only wish more would understand and follow it.

"The most ridiculous and divisive notion in the world is this idea that while we're fighting the "good fight" we should set aside and suspend every noble value that we claim to cherish, only to magically begin actually putting these things into practice when we "win." The trouble is, we will never "win" in the sense that there will never be those who disagree with us - what's more the true test of integrity is the courage to hold true to values when it is complicated and hard, not when there is no opposition."

Then I guess that makes John Kerry weak.

Do we see a weak man standing there? Not by my lights.

argument be couched?

(singing "We have all been here before")

I'd love to hear you argue this to Hunter Thompson sometime. If you wish to kill your opponent, sometimes the bludgeon is far more effective than the epee.

this approach's exactly why the left has been losing numbers for the last two decades: the inability to think like the enemy.

And his rourine on Limbaugh, Helms, Bar Bush etc in a sexual "moment" is a classic..

It's difficult uniting a diverse group of people. Censoring the way they express themselves is not the way to do it. That said, you still have a right to voice your feelings on the matter, but they are no more or less valid than anyone elses.

bulldogs and lambs are represented in our 'big tent' and they are all valuable in their own way (otherwise they wouldn't have been created by the world in the first place).

do you really think the reThuglicans give a monkey's ass whether we cry or not, heck on, so why should we. These little Hitlers started calling names long before Democrats got into it, so don't come in here talking about compassion when you don't have a clue of what pain, suffering or disaster majority of people go through.

Respect and Reason my ass.


:grr:

that calls for it. Everyone else gets a big fat fuck you.
As for going on about people's weight or questioning their gender...I agree it's kind of juvenile and I wish people would just stick to generic garden-variety insults.
I don't have a problem with speculation about people's sexual orientation when they are conducting themselves in a way that is harmful to the gay community in general and there are reasons to believe that they, themselves, may be gay. The "to out" vs. "not to out" controversy is one that has raged in the gay community for years and it's not going to be settled in a couple of threads at DU.

They're awfully rude to us. :shrug:

I was finished being a Boy Scout a loooooooooong time ago. One simply cannot turn the other cheek with "those people." Screw it...they set the tone, they determined the rules of the game we find ourselves in.

If I have to stow my manners and my genuine desire to be PC to play by their rules to win the game, so be it. You go ahead and play nice and color inside the lines, but in regards to this election cycle your time would be better spent finding a good strong wind and pissing in it.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Why aren't you in Iraq? Are you a little weenie rebulican coward, or are you going to be a Bush Patriot and serve your master in the hot desert? :D

Calling him a little weenie? What about the Phallic challenged?

although the derision for Rush's addiction had more to do with his lack of compassion for OTHER addicts than with his predicament.

Otherwise, we hurt others who have also stumbled, but haven't attacked other in the process.

Kanary

This is fucking WAR until Kerry wins ....

Does anyone here think the Right will tone down their rhetoric after Kerry wins?
I mean, we have right wing radio hosts calling for the EXECUTION of liberals. We have people like Coulter calling all of us traitors and warning that we can be put to death for our traitorous thoughts, and SHE GETS REGULAR AIRTIME ON TELEVISION!
I agree with you, Trajan. This IS war. But it's not going to be over for a long, long time.

(On Edit: It seems like I'm yelling at you, Trajan. I'm not, and I deeply apologize if it seems that way. I just get rather angry when I think of what the right says all the damn time, and how many times they get to say it on the air. Again, sorry.)

I find her attractive and I also have a thing about having sex with people I dont like. she fits the bill real good there. Especially if she likes to be spanked!

-85%

"An ambulance chaser who waves his girlie hands to make a point."

This is the skag we're supposed to stop any personal attacks on?? Hell,she makes her damn living resorting to personal attacks.

David

I tried that for a while. It is just not me. I'm a bastard and I have decided to just roll with that since it seems to be working for me. Trust me you need guys like me on your side.

<<I find all these personal attacks on Ann Coulter disturbing. To be clear, I despise everything I know of that she's written and said.>>

Then what's the problem? :shrug:

<<But really, how immature is it to question whether she's biologically a woman or to talk about her appearance instead of her ideas, as often happens in the Lounge?>>

Coulter has ideas? I thought all she had was a bigoted mind that spews hate-filled vomit that her loser fans lap up like Hershey syrup.

<<The same goes for Rush Limbaugh's (or anyone else's) size. Doesn't he provide enough to talk about without making facile fat jokes? (Every fat joke is facile and uncreative, IMHO.)>>

I take it you haven't read Al Franken's RUSH LIMBAUGH IS A BIG FAT IDIOT? You want funny, creative "fat" jokes? That book has 'em, baby!

<<One way to really piss me off is to use "gay" or to question someone's heterosexuality as an insult.>>

That I can agree with. But how often does that really happen at DU? I can think of only one example of "gay" being used around here in the perjorative, and I've been with DU for a year-and-a-half.

<<I don't think addiction is anything to mock either. Addiction deserves compassion (and maybe intervention), not derision. Any addict's hypocrisy about other addicts deserves exposure, not insult.>>

I take it you're talking about Pigboy? IMHO, he deserves anything and everything we say about him.

Thanks to Limbaugh and his ilk, millions of self-hating white-trash losers now think it's OK to hate and ridicule everything I and my compatriots hold dear. If you're able to deal with that bullshit through compassion and understanding, then bless you and be on your way. But when somebody fucks me, I fuck 'em back! I've taken off the kid gloves and I ain't putting 'em back on.

"Bleeding heart liberal?" Fuck that, I'm a "bleeding knuckles" liberal. You freepers want to mess with a leftist? I'm waiting for ya, motherfucker! Let's rumble.

<<Don't tell me to lighten up.>>

OK, I won't. Instead, I'll suggest that you stop obsessing over minor bullshit like manners and worry about something important--you know, like sending Bush's ass back to Crawford, Texas, after November 2nd.

<<Are we not the party of real compassion?>>

I'm compassionate toward the people that the Limbaughs and the Coulters of this world became wealthy from demonizing. As for the demonizers, I hope they all croak the same way my father did--slowly dying of cancer and unable to breathe without mechanical help. It's what those evil pieces of white shit deserve!

<<Is this how you want conservatives to act toward us?>>

Got news for ya, pal: that *is* how conservatives act toward us! And until we give it right back to those fuckers en masse, they're going to keep it up. Despite what some DUers like to believe, you don't always catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

<<Is this how you want your children to act toward other children?>>

I'll leave it up to the parents here to answer that question.

Are you done now? :boring:

You don't like it, use the ignore button.

Ann Coulter can take her Adam's Apple and package of man-meat and burn in hell.

Rush Limbaugh will have an aneurism and keel over dead within a few years, and I will be in line to piss on his grave.

and don't get me started about Raygun...

RL

...I've felt like a revolving door. Those days are long gone.

Here's the deal...I'll treat anyone with respect that treats me the same way. Unfortunately, Coulter's commentary is several continents removed from being respectful, polite, and decent. Therefore, she deserves absolutely NO respect from me.

Additionally, I get a little tired of people on this board trying to tell others how they should behave. I find that to be more than a little condescending to be perfectly honest.

which, of course, he is. unfortunately, i did not pay enough attention to the "fat" part of the statement.

i wonder about things. i am shocked when i hear of african americans disavowing the civil rights struggle of gay and lesbian people. i am shocked when i hear the VP of the united states of america reject his own childs happiness because he "does not set the agenda for the administration." i am shocked when "fat jokes" pass liberal muster. i am shocked that ms. coulters appearance is the primary focus of what is wrong with what she says.

honestly, if she was black, lesbian, overweight, unattractive... well, she wouldn't be all over tv, would she?

annie is just another white male fantasy.

Is anyone saying you CAN'T make personal attacks on these people or that we have to be "nice" to them - just attack them for stuff that's relevant - after all there's so much more material than she got balls/he's fat etc.

Coulter, is ignorant, a fascist, almost illiterate etc
Limbaugh is a demagouge and a hypocrite (I think the drug stuff with him IS relevant given his pronouncements on addicts)
The Bush twins are vacuous and shallow no need to call them sluts

Attack 'em by all means But why use fat or bitch/slut? it just perpetuates gender and physical stereotypes that we've supposedly moved on from.

It's all about what kind of world we really want to have once we oust the BFEE.

It's up to us.

Kanary

I hope she gags on her own adam's apple. God, there's no doubt that she'd wish all of us death. After all she views us as traitors.

Fuck her and Rush too. Hope Rush has an OD of Oxy.

Funniest and most futile thread ever!

Actually, there were some very good things that came out of it.

It's all in what people want to do........ do what they've always done, or look for new options, and how we need to be different from the garbage that's in charge.

Futile? Doan think so........

Kanary

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with your aim, but I think it will fall on (mostly) deaf ears (or should I say blind eyes).

I can't help that, anymore than I can help stubborn RWers.

That doesn't cancel out the fact that there *were* some eyes opened in this thread, and some great personal contacts made.

That alone is priceless, and certainly refutes the idea of "futile".

With all the work ahead of us in this country, no matter the outcome of the election, any progress among us here is far from futile.

Kanary

I agree and understand with most of what you are saying,but i ask what would you define the appropriate way to discuss or vent on this forum? facts only?can we say things like w is a chimp?or Ann coulter is a lier.Is it ok to vent?or must we only apply politically correct opinion based on our consumption of the media?

I agree that using insults like fat,shes a man,using the word gay as a insult,using any form of racial slurs is childish and offensive to me and most people not to mention it is anti productive, but where do you draw your line?just a question, i do agree that for best results Facts are the way to go.

I also believe venting is important as well,if this is a problem with the majority of DU users may i suggest a venting forum?One in which DU users may release there steam having no other use other then self release.

Ann Coulter is a liar.

Rush is a liar.

Cheney is a liar.

THose Are Facts. Use them liberally. :hi: :) :hi:

Of course venting is important. Anger that sits inside is dangerous to your health. Vent away! Selwynn started a perfectly good rant this morning, and it pleases me no end. :) However, you will notice that it does NOT call any names that hurt innocent people. In fact, Selwyn apparently caught himself using a term in anger that he later felt was inappropriate, and changed it. That's the mature way to deal with it.

Thank you for understanding this difference. What you are speaking about is the way to non-violence, and changing our society into a more peaceful one.

Now, go start a *really* good rant! :hi:

Kanary

we dont have to be sexist to fight sexism

we dont have to be homophobic to fight homophobia

I just wanted to thank you for posting this topic. I applaud your bravery in tackling such an unpopular subject here on DU. And, even though it's futile in the sense that you'll never change some people's attitudes, it was something that needed to be addressed.

I read several comments in this thread saying (paraphrase), "I'll respect THEM when they respect ME." Yet I've seen countless posts wishing death or harm on all Republicans. These are people that they've never met. I take offense at these statements because several of my family members, whom I love dearly, are Repubs. Add to that the blanket generalizations and my head nearly explodes.

Also, hypocracy is wrong, no matter who perpetrates it. I've read posts regarding the threads over in Freeperland, denouncing how hate-filled they are. Then read other threads here just as filled with hate.

I realize this is a public forum and of course we cannot dictate to a fine point the subject matter. I'm just glad, Pagebear, you brought out this topic that has disturbed me for some time. At times, I've felt pretty alone.

Thanks.

for a long time, but the far right in America won't listen.

What do Ann Thrax and Rush have to do with the sociatal ills of gay-baiting and weight prejudice?

I promise to say nice things, and cluck-cluck, when someone pushes her down a flight of stairs sometime and shatters her pelvis, maybe. And I'll mail Rush some Preperation H (maybe)when his rectal absecess flare from repeated anal rapes in prison. There, are you happy?

You should never rhetorically stroke those who would kill or imprison you, or your loved ones. This mindset is responsible for Republican gains in the recent past. Besides, ironically, you seem like the type to sock me in the face for calling you a bad name.

As a curvaceous beauty, I understand how bad it feels to be called names, or to hear others be called fat or told to "put down the burger." One day a friend of mine (another fattie) and I saw a movie and were really hurt by the fat jokes that were in it. We decided to go get a drink. A beautiful, thin girl walked by us, and after she passed, my friend muttered "skinny bitch." Then we busted out laughing, our hurt was temporarily forgotten, and we were able to enjoy the rest of our evening. Now, I know that we were just perpetuating the culture that says it's okay to make fun of people, but I sure felt better afterwards. Now, all my liberal brothers and sisters say it with me: Rush Limbaugh is a skinny bitch!!!

Now, don't you feel better? :evilgrin:

Just a clarification before I get slammed. The moral being that it hurts to get called names, no matter if it's about a physical characteristic or addiction or whatever, but it's also important to vent. I also agree that we must try to change the language of our culture, words like fattie, bitch, faggot, or any other mean and nasty words are hurtful, and they perpetuate hate, but when you are hurting inside (even if it is because you are darned tired of being stuck in republican Kansas and called a bleeding-heart hippie!) then it can be good to vent. I reread some of the posts, and I think one of them hit it on the nose when it talked about being able to slam the right without being childish, and I apologize if I offended anyone with the bitch word in the last post, I just got carried away with Rush hate!!!

:hippie: Rock on my fellow Dems!!

A friend of mine said that having sex with Ann Coulter would be like screwing a shrieking, sweaty broom handle.

hypocrisy

they refuse to hear the other 50%. They mock and ridicule anybody who doesn't side with them.

I believe anybody who ridicules and insults someone else is just expressing their own stupidity and supporting the repubs definition of 'liberal'.

I appreciate your stating this and hopefully some 'liberal' minds will become a little more open minded.

On edit: I purposely used the phrase 'repub', because sometimes it is fun.