Was Castro such a bad guy?

Although I usually deliver some kind of tirade when I start a thread, here I must admit that I know precious little concerning Fidel Castro. The only thing I do know is that he ousted an absolutely brutal dictactor by the name of Batista, and was numerously targeted for assassination by both the Eisenhower and Kennedy administrations.

Is the left-wing Castro regime as bad as such past right-wing regimes like Diem (South Vietnam) or Pinochet's (Chile)? Or does he simply have an unwarrented reputation? I would appreciate some replies. Thanks.

He is still alive correct?

I figured that the majority of comments would concern his takeover and what methods he used to retain power. I'm aware that he is still alive.

I know jack shit about them, really.

From what I do understand Batista was much worse.

If he has commited attrocities, I wouldn't consider his regime left-wing. Maybe former left-wing corrupted by right-wing ideas and actions.

who took his country back from Battista and the corrupt Gringos who were exploiting the Cuban peasantry. He's brought universal education and health care to Cuba, and they've survived the vindictive sanctions that have been placed on them by Battista's followers in this country - who just want to go back and reinstate their greedy rule over the populace again.

Whether Castro is good or bad probably depends on where you (or your family) was economically before he took power.

He became bad when he instead of introducing socialdemocracy introduced dictatorship.. so unfortunately history will only remember him as a dictator..

I do agree some of the things he did like health care, school etc was incredible but he blew it.

Many of the Cubans who started coming over here fought against Batista but felt that Castro betrayed them when he prevented any forms of democracy.

"Many of the Cubans who started coming over here fought against Batista but felt that Castro betrayed them when he prevented any forms of democracy."

Not that many. Most of the Cubans in the USA are too young to have fought against Batista. Most Cubans are here for the same reason that immigrants come here from all over the Caribbean. More opportunity to make money. The Cuban Adjustment Act makes it all too easy for Cubans to enter the US illegally, and stay (along with a host of special perks for Cubans only). About 100,000 Miamicubans return to Cuba every year on direct flights for vacations and family visits, and many Cuban relatives visit their family in Miami for a vacation, and then return to their homes in Cuba.

the early 1960s. Many Cuban anti-Batista fighters later revolted against Castro, and Castro declared them bandits and destroyed their rebel forces in the mountains. Many of them fled to Miami. They naively believed that Castro and Guerva were going to implement a democracy on Batista's downfall.

our bad guy for many years then we got saddam to take over the role! Both stood up defiantly to the US but castro was just to close to american shores, so a further away advisary was needed. Castros tactic was (well after cuban missile crisis) was to send humanitarian disasters our way, knew better than to fire missiles or the like.

which was very big in the tourist, gambling, drug, and prostitution businesses.

Which is why the Mafia ran straight to then vice-president Nixon to get the U.S. gov't to overthrow Castro. Nixon set the wheels in motion for what ended up in the Bay of Pigs. And the Mafia also participated in CIA-sponsored attempts to assassinate Castro.

Incidentally, as soon as he understood that the U.S. gov't and the Mafia were after him, Castro decided he'd better be a communist and ally himself with the USSR.

Years later, Castro told the Sandanista leaders in Nicaragua that he HAD to hop in bed with the Russians, but that they didn't -- that things weren't that bad yet (despite Reagan's outrageous Contra terrorism), and that they shouldn't -- not until they absolutely had to. Because being a client state of the USSR was a bad deal; the only thing worse was to be a US colony.

were already in bed with the Russians, and alot of others, like the East Germans and the North Koreans.

The Sandanistas accepted aid from whoever offered. They NEVER became a client state like Cuba.

And -- given Reagan's sponsorship of the Contra terrorism, the Sandanistas needed all the help they could get.

It is part of the Rethugnicans' playbook to sponsor terrorism and then complain when their targets accept aid from people the Rethugs don't like.

Whether he was "worse" than his predecesor is like whether Hitler is "worse" than Stalin. Whoever is wqorse does not vindicate the other. He executes, tortures, and jails anyone who dissents from his "revolutionary" regime. Just because he may be "better" than Bautista, doesn't mean he isn't a brutal dictator.

He started great. Kicked out the US puppets and mafia bosses.

Became paranoic (though the fact that you are paranoic does not mean that they are not after you! And the US has done enough to prove this).

He still has good programs like universal free education (Cuba has one of the highest literacy rates in the world), good health care, etc. One of his propaganda items says something like "millions of children around the world live in the streets. You won't find them in Cuba".

However, he is totalitarian and a despot. Cuban economy in the dumps.

that Cuba always had one of the highest literacy rates in the western hemisphere--and the quality of their education is quite poor in Cuba even if they do have 'universal' education--a lot of things are censored and others are just propaganda.
Their medical care is really not as good as it sounds. For decades, tens of thousands of political 'outcasts' were denied any benefits whatsoever.

Posted by Zuni--> "the thing is that Cuba always had one of the highest literacy rates in the western hemisphere--and the quality of their education is quite poor in Cuba even if they do have 'universal' education--a lot of things are censored and others are just propaganda. Their medical care is really not as good as it sounds. "

You should take the time to read some of the links that contain actual information, because as your posts indicate.. you don't know jack about Cuba now.


WB: Learn from Cuba
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990.  That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

had the 2nd or third highest literacy rate in Latin America when Castro took Havana on Jan 1 1959.

Chile had a high literacy rate under Pinochet.

Iraq, under the Baath Party had universal education and the highest literacy rate in the Arab world. Kuwait, under the monacrchs has universal health care and one of the best health care systems in the world--their system is far better than Canada or the NHS in the UK.

Nazi Germany had very high standards regarding universal education for ethnic Germans.

"Chile had a high literacy rate under Pinochet.
Iraq, under the Baath Party had universal education and the highest literacy rate in the Arab world. Kuwait, under the monacrchs has universal health care and one of the best health care systems in the world--their system is far better than Canada or the NHS in the UK.
Nazi Germany had very high standards regarding universal education for ethnic Germans."


Hello? The excellent education and healthcare stats are talking about Cuba NOW.

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

one of the best education systems in the world and almost universal literacy. He used to get awards from the UN for his 1st class educational system.
Kuwait still has one of the best healthcare systems on the planet and it is all free for any Kuwaiti

I'm guessing it is meant to mock him since he is quite the moron.

"I can speak to almost anything with a lot of authority." - Fred Barnes

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

... and everybody knows the US would never support a brutal dictator.

He is to American interests. He is better or at least no worse than many American sponsored dictators. I think that his economy would have been better without the boycott that makes no sense except to make the Cuban economy worse and make Cubans want to leave. It must be hard to be an isolated dictator.

I have no problem thinking that I have been lied to my whole life about Castro among other things. So I'm not going to pass judgment on Castro.

He is an autocrat who tolerates little dissent, and treats those who seek basic liberties badly. That's bad.

However, he brought needed reforms to Cuba, and the citizens are in many if not most ways better off than they were under Bautista. My feeling is that they'd be extremely well off (and much more free) if we cut out the cold war nonsense when the cold war ended.

the cold war is over--so should cold war policies.

if the embargo ended tomorrow?
I've often wondered that. what would happen if leaving the island was no more difficult than driving across state lines here. Would people come across for the weekend and return home with much needed supplies?
If leaving the Island is a "crime" right now, would a lifted embargo change that?

they'd need more hotels, then they'd want gambling, then the mafia would be running things again.

Just a guess.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

when compared to the evil bastard before him. To bad the CIA failed in killing that dude.

For standing up to the US bullyboy and sticking it to the CIA.

I am glad that all of "our" attempts to asassinate him failed.

That said, he is much too authoritarian, etc. despite the fact that his efforts in healthcare and education have been admirable.

But who I really really hate are the professional anti-Castro agitators in Miami--you know, the enablers of the Elian relatives.

They are some very SCARY lunatics indeed.

I don't understand how they can sit their and oppose aid being sent to Cuba while chillin in Miami. Heartless.

As for Castro you have to understand my background. I was born in Chile and I don't live there anymore because a dictator decided to rob my family blind and tried to kill my mother. I think dictators deserve a bullet and nothing else.

Also Castro forced atheism on his people. If you know my rep you knwo that wouldn't sit well with me.

I don't care what your background is, if you are a "christian", you cannot condone killing, period.

Just because some tinhorn dictator "forced atheism" on you doesn't mean state/churhc separatists in America are trying to do the same. Now I know the origin of your many fallacious and erroneous arguments concerning that issue.

I don't care what your background is, if you are a "christian", you cannot condone killing, period.

That's false and I don't care either way. I'm not a perfect Christian and I don't pretend to be. So anyway you look at it the argument you made doens't concern me.

Just because some tinhorn dictator "forced atheism" on you doesn't mean state/churhc separatists in America are trying to do the same.

You are way off here.
1- no one has ever forced anything on me. Pinochet didn't concern himself with religious matters.
2- I don't think anyone in the US is trying to force atheism on me. I do feel some are trying to force secularism on all public land and property which I disagree with. I think they take seperation too far.


Now I know the origin of your many fallacious and erroneous arguments concerning that issue.

Seeing as to how far off you were on your last couple comments it seems to me you still don't know much about me. How about asking me what you want to know. Wouldn't that be something?

<To bad the CIA failed in killing that dude> to? or too?

Yes, Damn the truth, let's kill everyone the propagana matrix tells us to because we can.



Retyred IN FLA.

Yes, Damn the truth, let's kill everyone the propagana matrix tells us to because we can.

I learned about Castro in Chile, from parents that supported Allende. So take your matrix comments elsewhere.

social rights of human beings, you seemed to be even more concerned with human rights issues. What should the CIA have done with Nixon, Kissinger and Clinton? What should they do with BushII? I'm really afraid of your reply!
Greetings from Germany,
Dirk

I came from Chile chased out by one. If you are a dictator you deserve a bullet and nothing more.

whatever happened to "Thou Shalt Not Kill"? Did they add an addendum to it while I wasn't looking?

so what? You think I plan on becoming a saint?

:eyes:

:eyes:

than a hypocrite.At least I'm consistant in my beliefs.

The flaming disconnect between what you say you believe in and your words about people deserving a bullet only serve to perfectly illustrate why I dont take religion (or you) seriously.It reminds me of Falwell offering to pull the switch on McVeigh.

that you have more than a few faults BlueChill.

Thanks for playing :eyes:

hitting alert. But since you want to be like this. Explain to me why killing a tinhorn dictator that harms his people would be against my beliefs. In fact while you're add it explain my beliefs to me.

You seem to have all the answers, so please fill me in smart ass.

seeing as though you're so busy defending your religion around here I figured you'd be able to adhere to the main tenet "Thou Shalt Not Kill".I never knew Jesus to be the type to advocate putting a bullet in someone's head like you have.

Of course I never knew Jesus to be the type to send profanity ridden PMs to people they dont like either.Did Jesus tell you to call me a fucking moron?

You expect people to respect you and your religion but you spit in the face of the very religion you defend.You should be ashamed.

What a hypocrite.

Thanks for saving me the trouble on the alert thing.I guess sending nasty emails is the proper way to deal with people instead of letting the mods decide.You obviously know best :eyes:

And calling me a silver spoon American is downright hilarious.I have so much dough it's scary.Thats why I've almost been homeless twice this year :crazy:

Thanks also for the advice to have fun...I am :hi:

seeing as though you're so busy defending your religion around here I figured you'd be able to adhere to the main tenet "Thou Shalt Not Kill".I never knew Jesus to be the type to advocate putting a bullet in someone's head like you have.

It's thou shall not commit murder. 'kill' is a mistranslation, do the research yourself. I don't consider killing a bastard that has killed so many others murder, I call it justice.

Of course I never knew Jesus to be the type to send profanity ridden PMs to people they dont like either.Did Jesus tell you to call me a fucking moron?

As christianity teaches we are all flawed. Calling you a fucking moron in response to your insutls was a flaw. Deal with it.

You expect people to respect you and your religion but you spit in the face of the very religion you defend.You should be ashamed.

You don't know a damn thing about my religion other then then what you gain from TV or speaking with your anti-theist buddies. And as for respect I don't expect it, I demand it. Just like you demand respect, sadly you aren't as deserving.

What a hypocrite.

If you had a clue, that insult would mean something. But since all you've known in life is the sivler spoon of America where even you poor have glowing TV sets it means nothing.

Thanks for saving me the trouble on the alert thing.I guess sending nasty emails is the proper way to deal with people instead of letting the mods decide.You obviously know best :eyes:

I didn't send you an e-mail, try to calm down and think before you type. BTW who the hell are you to complain about a PM after insulting me first? Please.....


And calling me a silver spoon American is downright hilarious.I have so much dough it's scary.Thats why I've almost been homeless twice this year

Homeless? sure dude whatever you say. lol

Thanks also for the advice to have fun...I am

This is fun to you? Fine then to the ignore list you go. Enjoy your stay.

you're a twisted one...but then I knew that.

And yes,I'll certainly enjoy being on your ignore list...in fact I'm honored.

Thank you St Blue Chill!

Could it be possible that this dictators' name was Pinochet and that he was installed in Chile by the USA, killing more than 20.000 people on September 11 1973? With Kissinger saying, a population that doesn't act responsiblbe deserves this. And that this dicator was installed by the USA after fighting against a "totalitarian" socialist regime. Fiedel Castro gave Allende a machine gun as a birthday presence some years before this happened. Allende used it to defend himself, but he didn't get the message. So you want a Pinochet in Cuba?????
You really confuse me,
Greetings anyway,
Dirk

How the hell did you get that from what I said?

I DO NOT WANT ANY DICTATORS.

capitalism, dared to cut the profit of european and american corporations and give it back to the people, their political leaders were starting a discourse against "totalitarism". "We do not want any dictators" was the headline of every invasion, every counter-attack of the USA. It's so bigot that I really don't understand, how someone can still believe this crap. You don't want any dictator - whatever that means - and for sure you don't want a Pinochet in Cuba. As long as you don't work for Fox-TV, I believe you and I respect that this is, what you're concerned about. I just tried to underline the analogy between the discourse of the Nixon-regime in the USA during the Allende-times and the ongoing hate-discourse against Cuba now. And if you look at what kind of government was installed in Chile after Allende, mostly with the support of the USA, and their ideologic attacks against Allende as a threat to the "free world", you might get my point. And democrazy for me is much more than a legal form. Just compare Castros speeches with Bushs' or even Clintons' speaches and judge by yourself, who's talking to people at the same height, and who's just trying to lead a passive crowd by feeding them with what their media-advisors have recommended them.
I don't believe in Cuba as a kind of socialist paradise in any way and if there might be violations of human rights there, I would condemn this like everywhere else. But the discrepancy between, what's going on in Cuba and the hate-discours of the media and the political leaders in the USA on the one side, and what's going on in other countries, who are supported by the USA is just so self-revealing that it's hard for me to understand, how someone become a part of this hypocrisy. It's all about economics and it's not about human rights.
If tomorrow a government in Cuba would be installed, who gives in to the IMF, the WTO and the worldbank, as many people they might kill or just let die, the hate-discours against Cuba would immediately
stop. I hope, I can count on you, fighting against any dictator then!
Greetings,
Dirk

If Cuba held real elections but remained communist no US politician would be able to keep sanctions on them. Castro should step down for the good of his people.

doing with Kissinger, Nixon, and Bush...?

"Clinton justified the attacks "because of the threat they present to our national security", and in Britain Tony Blair "strongly supported" the action." Sounds familiar to me somehow...
Although I try to work on my memory span, I promise!
Greetings anyway,
Dirk

I can tell you that Cuba is NOT as it is portrayed in the U.S. media. There is a lot of information on the web about Fidel - the only one to stand up - consistently - against corporate interests.

The Canadian people have made Cuba a top destination for tourism. It has the most beautiful beach in the world (Varadero Beach). Too bad, the people of our country are not allowed to visit Cuba, but can go to China where they mow kids down with tanks. The double-standard is disgusting.

Politically, it is a revolutionary government that must defend itself from a monster just 90 miles away. The CIA has attempted many times to kill Fidel Castro. When somebody posts in this thread, "It's too bad the CIA didn't kill that dude," one must wonder what kind of ethical value system they are working under that allows for the assasination of political leaders the U.S. deems inappropriate. How very sad.

The VAST majority of the Cuban people stand with Fidel and the revolution WILL survive his passing. I, personally, will mourn that day.

propaganda or best depends on how one looks at it. Can only say, iraqi defectors in canada have totally different perspective than INC and I-be-lying chalabi!

I would be surprized if you were allowed to travel freely there.

Don't forget, they picked up the dead bodies in Moscow every morning so as to not upset the visitors.

Cuba is NOT the old Soviet Union. Pick up the dead bodies? Cuba has an extrememly low crime rate. (Compare it to others in the region!)

I traveled freely and all over the island from Havana south. There are no restrictions.

Where do you get your information? "Cuban friends" who don't like him doesn't say much. Remember, if you were in Cuba, there are people who talk of their "American friends" who like George W. Bush. Obviously, that doesn't mean anything.

READ Castro. He is beyond intelligent - the man is brilliant.

A good book to start with:
Fidel Castro Reader
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1876175117/
Link for info purposes only.

ON EDIT: This book is brand new - just out.

it doesn't address the murdered and tortured loved ones of my Cuban friends and it does not surprize me that they people remain in line (Marshall Tito didn't allow a lot of crime either).

Given what I've heard, I don't believe I can be open to this matter. We'll need to agree to disagree here.

~

I'm not just talking about just a commercial 767 either. With proper paperwork and permission granted you can take your Cessna,Piper whatever and over fly Cuba through a corridor to get south or north without having to fly around the entire island.

Suppose some Cuban aircraft could just come tooling through the middle of the US? I doubt it,even with trying to go through proper channels.

David

Fidel Castro is a hero.

Derek asked a question presumably to get honest intellectual feedback. I am astounded at how immature DU can be at times.

"CASTRO Is an Asshole n/t"

What a response. What has happened to DU?????

The extent of ignorant bigotry towards our neighbors is an absolute disgrace in this day and internet age especially for a forum that likes to think of itself as progressive* democrat*.

real cheap.
arguments however are hard to come by.

The only people who hate Castro are the ones pissed off they can't exploit the poor.

Don't believe all the propaganda in the US. If you want to learn about Castro and Cuba, read Chomsky.

not guys trying to sell books.

Posted by jagguy--> ""I prefer to listen to Cubans"

Me too. That is why the US government should drop the travel sanctions imposed on Americans.. to allow Americans to see Cuba with their own eyes and to talk to Cubans directly.

What is so scary about that?

As usual - look who comes up with the truth with such grace and simplicity! Thank you "T" !!

In my post above I mentioned to Derek, since he wanted to know, that there is a lot of info available on the web, but I should have given this link:

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/

It's a part of my daily newspaper rounds.

All of this, "My Cuban friends say so..." business is interesting. I would ask - are those "Cuban friends" in South Florida???

As I posted, I have been to the island five times and have rarely come upon Cubans who have nothing but praise that they still have their independence - despite the inhumane embargo. People are not told the truth. As for the "He can do know wrong," that was posted here - my response would be there are those who REFUSE to see the good and have the attitude of, "He can do no right."

The conservative nature of many DUers have been coming through with such force of late.

Visit Cuba! It's cheap - and may I suggest the Hotel Nacional. It is incredibly cheap - a luxury hotel for the price of a Motel 6. And take a look:

And reminding me that once I move to Canada I can go visit Cuba.

"The conservative nature of many DUers have been coming through with such force of late." ... Right on.

Brings back wonderful memories! Peace

How about those of us that know what dictators are about because we came froma nation that had one? If Castro was what you claim he would have written a constituion and held REAL election for HIS postition in goverment.

He is a dictator, period. And much like Pinochet he has been allowed to reach a old age and enjoy his life. That is a great injustice.

BTW - I'm sure the Catholics in Cuba diagree with you.

I come from a poor nation where a dictator killed half my family and just 10 years ago my close cousin was gunned down in the streets by American-sanctioned and armed government thugs. I know exactly what America wants restored in Cuba and the kind of life those Miami exiles want to get back to. EXPLOITATION OF THE POOR IN CUBA.

Some people do NOT approve of that to include the majority of the Cubans who were the poor. Stop listening to a bunch of rich people missing their plantations.

PLEASE.

My father's family gave all its lands to the poor when they left and I am DAMN proud of them. Came to America and worked HARD instead of yearning for that old plantation life built on the backs of the poor.

Whose side are you on? The poor of Christ or the wealthy exploiting them? Come to old Cuba or Haiti with me. Let ME show you the mistress ringing her bell so the little 12 year old house servant will run up 3 flights of stairs to hand the mistress a purse no less than 1 foot away from her! Let me show you the rich man who builds a huge, beautiful wall around his mano-laden property but who has big broken shards of glass, or now barbed wire I hear, to prevent the poor from taking a mango! Let me show you the swimming pools behind these walls in places where even though the water is not privatized and you could give it away for free all day because your bill will be the same, the poor have to walk miles with a bucket on their head to get desperately needed water.

No BlueChill. Stop listening to those people and listen to the poor.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

that Catholics who had atheism forced on them would love Castro. Also why do you assume I want the poor screwed over because I dislike a dictator? Many dictators did some good for some of their people, but that does not excuse the fact that they are dictators.

When has Chomsky ever been objective about anything? He will write apologia for virtually any anti-US movement.

fighters and pro-democracy movement people were persecuted because they dared to question why there was no political freedoms after the revolution.
It is a great slander that many pro-democracy movement campaigners can be called stooges and Castro and other dictatorial communists can be called heroes. A damn disgrace.

"It is a great slander that many pro-democracy movement campaigners can be called stooges.. "


Stooges? You must mean pro-democracy movement campaigners like Bush, Orlando Bosch, John Negroponte, Otto Reich, 'Pepe' Hernandez, the CANF and their traitorous bought_and_paid_for minions in Cuba?

Slander? Nope. Calling it like it is.

thousands of pro-democracy fighters who revolted against Castro were labelled by the regime as 'Batista supporters'. Of course that vicious slander is repeated by Castro's worshippers here. All of Castro's enemies are called 'bandits, criminals, fascists, CIA puppets, exploiters' when many of them just want real freedom.

Of course people in my grandmothers family were called Tsarists when the NKVD killed them or sent them to slave labor camps in Siberia.

I have no reason to doubt them.

If they've led you to believe that people cannot travel freely throughout Cuba. Millions of people from all over the world (except the USA) have been freely travelling all over the island making it the #1 destination in the Caribbean for several years now. Travel banned Americans ought to hang their ignorant heads in shame in this day and internet age.

Having been to Cuba several times myself, I have no reason to believe a word the Cuban exiles in the USA say.

Bush has just liberated the Iraq, and took revenge for the people, who died on September, 11, 2001. I have no reason to doubt them. They live in a free country and they're watching Fox-News all day long.
Greetings from Germany,
Dirk

Even self-professed socialists, which is remarkable.

But some people worship Castro and to them he can do no wrong.

The only thing I hold against him is his possible betrayal of Che's revolutinary vision.

the only way to find out is to read and decide for yourself, Cuba is no thriving metropolis but it's clean, the people are friendly and as long as you don't openly dis Castro things are pretty cool.

With Castro I believe the phrase "believe only half of what you see and none of what you hear" would apply, like Iraq the people are poor and like Iraq it's because ot the sanctions we imposed but unlike Iraq Castro rules only as hard as he needs to in order to maintain his rule as dictator.

Some good links can be found at: http://www.govsux.com/lift_the_ban.html

Read some of Castro's writings, he's a very intellegent man.


Retyred IN FLA.

he's refusing to rent a part of Guantamo Bay from the USA and send the so-called-Dissidents terrorists there and treat them like human beings should be treated. Instead they see a real court. I think the USA should set a kind of embargo against Castro: if he doesn't build more prisons until at least one out of hundred cuban citizens will be imprisoned, Cuba should be liberated like the Iraq and Chile. And if he doesn't immediately take care about to let the infant-mortality rate in Cuba equal the one in 3.World Countries like North-America, we should bomb him to hell.
:-) Greetings from Germany,
Dirk

~

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

like anyone that gets demonized like him, ... it often is the case that he might not be as bad or brutal as they say in the propaganda.

there is an entire opposite side of the story, which is not taught or shown on tv here, at all. It's amazing how they have essentially re-wrote history on Castro and Cuba. Until I started reading the history, I didn't know that he actually tried to run in an election against Batista in a proper manner. But, Batista and his miltary forces along with the help of the U.S./CIA types, fixed the election by among other things, destroying ballots, attacking polling places, etc. The history about "appropriating" firms assets and land has another side to the story as well, not to mention all the US backed terrorist attacks on Cuba, assassination attempts, attempts to undermine the government, etc.

I've read books and speeches by Castro. In what I have read, he often makes a lot of sense.

I try to read and consider both or all sides. You almost always find another side to the story.

the hijacking of the Cuban popular revolution against the US-backed dictator is improperly labeled "socialist" or "communist", as if the direct involvement of the workers in their liberation from the oppressing classes can be conveniently sidestepped through the intervention of some other section of the national-bourgeois class--Castroism/Guevarism is essentially that the workers need only sit back and be liberated by the radical middle-class guerrila, an appealing and popular formula for some but more or less outside of basic Marxism--, but as petty-bourgeois nationalists go Castro is indeed flawed but not entirely bad.

As far as providing necessary services to the people goes, the Cuban system is indeed superior to its US-dominated neighbors and other US-dominated states that follow the economic and political policies dictated to them, though it does so within the framework of indefensible statist authoritarianism. On one hand, the United States government exports bombs and death squads, Cuba trains and exports doctors to benefit poor communities.

While the authoritarian statism is to be rightly condemned, some of the louder voices who do so have improper and hostile motivations--US-friendly dictators and military regimes, many of whom are lightyears worse than whatever Castro has done, never receive the same treatment (indeed, Reagan hailed people like General Efrain Rios Montt as a good Christian and great hero, while he mercilessly butchered Mayans and leftists by the thousand), and it seems that the only complaint some of these people really have is that the oppression is not done within the greater framework of benefiting US imperialism (within this construct, all of the oppression in the world is deemed A-OK by certain voices). While a part of the authoritarian practice can be explained as being in response to the constant aggressions and terrorism of its northern neighbor, it is also fairly standard (unfortunately common) self-interested bureaucratic statism at the expense of the popular interest.

I think of Castro/Cuba as something to be defended from hostile forces, such as the Florida-based terrorist groups and US imperialism in general, but not a stunning example to be emulated.

One of the best looks at Castro/Castroism/Cuba/etc I have read is from the Trotskyist Bill Vann, available at--
http://www.wsws.org/exhibits/castro/index.htm

You wrote:

Castroism/Guevarism is essentially that the workers need only sit back and be liberated by the radical middle-class guerrila, an appealing and popular formula for some but more or less outside of basic Marxism.

Yours was an interesting analysis. However, the above quote is not quite fair to the socialist revolution in Cuba. For one thing, the writings of Marx are not revelations from on high. That aside, socialism existed in various forms long before Karl Marx. There is no question that Marx, through the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital (among others) laid out the economics of -- well -- Marxism! That Castro has not followed Marxist thought in a fundamentalist fashion only makes sense for Cuba. After all, there has yet to be a socialist revolution where Marx said it had to happen - in a post-capitalist industrialized society! Cuba was/is hardly an industrialized society of factory weary proletariat. Just a thought.

I may have been a bit harsh.. it is difficult to be between several different views of something.

You make good points also.

Like you say, they are not fundamentalist Marxists, but I think the distinction is important there because of how the State & Revolution are usually described by the more shallow/hostile commentators in the press and such. Indeed more agrarian rather than factory-worker based, and very different and distinct revolutionary needs in that sense. The trouble is when the idea is exported to places where it doesn't apply, as the militant revolutionaries in Central/South America found out across decades as they and thousands of others were butchered by US-backed dictators and military regimes because their guerrilas didn't have enough of a base to balance against the ruling classes.

I don't wish to join in with the more fanatic and rabid denounciations here; alongside things I disagree with about him/them/etc there are things I am sympathetic to, may not have made that known enough at first.

of Cuba IS, in fact, Marxist, if the number one rule of Marxism is historical materialism - which is to say, there is no a priori dogma that outweighs the specific material conditions.

The problem the previous poster brought up, however, is not about Marxism per se, but rather about the validity of a vanguard class, a group of intellectuals or theorists or thinkers that will show the working class the problems of surplus value, and provoke that working class toward revolution. That's Leninism, or at least argued by Lenin. The problem is avoiding "spontaneity" of proletariat revolution which, because devoid of theoretical understanding, falls back into the old forms of praxis (Theory and practice themselves being dialectical, blah blah blah).

Put more simply, will the proletariat actually run shit if a vanguard group of thinkers has to bring them to it? It's a good question. And may be the question communism still has to answer.

Communism is not only STILL VIABLE, it is utterly necessary if we are to survive as a species. CAPITALISM HAS NO FUTURE.

Not one of them is Cuban."
http://www.cubasolidarity.net/




Retyred IN FLA.

For speaking their minds thousands of Cubans sleep with the fishes. If someone can't see that, they're blind.

and it's the first thing they say in their annual report on Cuba:

Section 1 Respect for the Integrity of the Person, Including Freedom from:

a. Political and Other Extrajudicial Killing

There were no reports of politically motivated killings.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/wha/751.htm

I've been to Cuba a bunch of times. Cubans do speak freely.. and they vote in elections too. Paper ballots, counted and recounted in public. I've seen it with my own eyes.



http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates. Instead the candidates are nominated by grass roots assemblies and by electoral commissions comprising representatives of all the mass organisations.
The municipal elections are the cornerstone of Cuba's political structure. They comprise delegates who have great authority amongst the local population and who are elected for reasons of known integrity, intelligence, hard work and honesty.

The elections to the provincial and national assemblies (Cuba's regional and national parliaments) follow a different procedure. For deputies to the national assembly the nominating process involves proposals from the municipal councils.

In addition to receiving nominations from different organisations and institutions, the candidacy commissions carry out an exhaustive process of consultation before drawing up a final slate. In the February 1993 elections they consulted more than 1.5 million people and established a pool of between 60 and 70 thousand potential candidates before narrowing it down to 589.

The nominating process and the huge participation in the last election clearly show that the deputies to Cuba's parliament enjoy massive public support.

There have never been thousands of executions in Cuba. Not even the U.S. government has made a claim so obviously ridiculous. A few hundred (at most) of the landlords and crooked cops who let Cubans starve in the streets under Batista is the most that was ever executed.

over 17,000 since Castro took power. And over 100,000 in prisons or forced labor camps.
Most of the killed were not Batista supporters or cronies. that is a myth.
You Castro Lovers really do not want to see the truth.

Does anyone really think that Castro forced the Cuban people to develop a 1st class health care system for all Cubans, forced the Cuban people to develop a 1st class education system for their children, forced the Cuban people to develop a 1st class social infrastructure? It doesn't compute.

The Cuban people, together, worked hard and long to build what they have in free and sovereign Cuba. After their succes kicking out the fully armed & bloodsoaked US supported Batista dictatorship, they are fully empowered and aren't going to take any shit from here on out.


WB: Learn from Cuba
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

At the same time < as sanctions and the Soviet collapse>, however, its record of social achievement has not only been sustained; it’s been enhanced, according to the WDI.

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990.  That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

Pinochet helped the Chilean economy should I love him now? Fuck that.

pulled Italy out of virtuaL collapse in the 1920s. And he got the trains to run on time!!! He created numerous public services programs and a better social welfare system.

By the logic of these Castro fans, Mussolini was a great leader for Italy.

Of course he sent troops to Ethiopia, which was real bad, but then again so did Castro.

Amazing.

Hitler ended unemployment in Germany. He also pulled Germany out of the great depression long before the western democracies. He improved health care too. And created better living conditions for most Germans.
Of course he also built concentration camps and disenfranchised Jews --but hey, he created a better social welfare system!!

"Dear Mr. Hitler,
it's okay what you do with the communists, it's okay what you do with the socialists and we don't care about your concentration camps anyway, but if don't immediately stop this welfare and healthcare-system, we erase you from this world!"
P.S. everything above is true, the only lies are about Hitler improving the health-care system and the other lie, much more complex, is about Hitler ending unemployment. Or to put it the other way round: did Castro give work to the cuban people preparing a war and building bombs?
I fail in thinking as absurd as the world I live in is...
Dirk

I had him over for dinner recently,and the wine he chose was fabulous!

Castro's government is extremely humane -- probably more humane than any other Latin American country. Cuba's human rights record is much better than those of right-wing, dictatorial regimes that the U.S. supported and continues to support. And Castro's government is inarguably more humane than was Batista's regime. The tendency to view Castro as a despot is largely an exclusively American trait. Outside of this country, Castro is not nearly so demonized. He's a close friend of Nelson Mandela.

There is no homelessness in Cuba. Cuba has been consistently rated #1 in eliminating poverty. In Cuba, the infant mortality rate is 7.15 deaths/1,000 births. The life expectancy is 76.8. The literacy rate is 96.9 percent. These are all about the same rates as found in the United States. Compare this with Ecuador, which is only slightly larger and more populous, and has an infant mortality rate of 31.97/1,000, a life expectancy of 71.89 years, and a literacy rate of 92.5 percent.

Cuba contributes more doctors to the World Health Organization than any other country.

Cuba rarely employs the death penalty, and has never executed dissidents just for their political views. In fact, there was a moratorium on executions until the recent hijacking (more on that event later in this post).

Human rights organizations are granted full access in Cuba. While some rogue cops do sometimes interfere with them, it's not government policy. Cuba's prison system is much more humanitarian than that in other Latin American countries. Systematic torture does not occur.

Contrary to popular belief (in the U.S. anyway anyway), there are legal political organizations besides the Communist Party, including the Christian Democratic Party of Cuba, the Cuban Social-Revolutionary Democratic Party, the Cuban Social-Democratic Coordinator Party, the Cuban Liberal Union, the Democratic Solidarity Party, the Cuban Social Democratic Current, and the Valera Project.

It is true that these organizations aren't allowed to run candidates for office -- but neither is the Communist Party. Cuban officials are required by law to run as individuals, not as nominees of any particular party. More on Cuba's electoral system can be found here: http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Now, Cuba does imprison dissidents. That's not to say that you can't criticize the government -- you can, but not especially harshly or consistently. Why?

Not because they present a threat to the current government. Most Cubans would keep things more or less the way they are. But one has to understand that Cuba is a society under siege. The U.S. has constantly been trying to overthrow the current government for over four decades. If Cuba became a much more open society, it would be inviting U.S. manipulation and destabilization.

If the U.S. gov't was really interested in seeing Cuba become more democratic, it would end the embargo and quit seeking the overthrow of the Cuban government. The U.S. adopted measures against Cuba as soon as it became apparent Castro wasn't willing to to the bidding of the U.S. Cuba, in turn, adopted measures such as imprisoning dissidents because of what the U.S. has done to Cuba.

nt

or do you just have the kinds of irrelevant, rude, shallow and insulting remarks lacking in substance that you get so pissy at when they're thrown at you? a bit hypocritical, I'd say, but that's the most gentle I could come up with.

If you have arguments and facts to add to the argument, rather than recycled propaganda slogans, please do not hesitate to add them.

I was curious about where the_sam references that information on Cuban prisons. interested in reading those, for that's something of a gap in my own studies on the subject.

Some folks know only how to look at easy to retrieve election maps and make obvious commentary, disguised as insight. The arguemnt jiacinto has against Castro is a priori, and depends on no evidence whatsoever, since the conclusion exists prior to any investigation. Even the bizarre Cuba haters on this thread have more insight, since they at least manage to back their claims with reasons, instead of ignorantly making claims and placing "n/t" in their text. In this case, n/t means not "no text,' but rather "no thought." American University should be ashamed.

that is amazing! I remember this. It is far above that in the US which, from what I remember, is about 70%.

Castro was being interviewed by BABA WAWA, what a stark contrast, and he asked how people can be free if they cannot read. That is a very, very, goddamn good question.


Welcome to DU
:hi:

according to the 2003 Almanac is 97%. Cuba is 94%.

http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=2553.

Cuba has about the same life expectancy as US, twice as many doctors/thousand than US, less time in school with nearly same literacy rate.


Is this why the capitalist/fascists in US are worried about this becoming common knowledge. Cuba seems to be doing more with less. Socialism= greater efficiency than capitalism?

Literacy in America
More than 20% of adults (1 in 5) read at or below a fifth-grade level http://www.nifl.gov/nifl/facts/facts_overview.html>. At 41,115,200 this number is greater than the population of Spain (39,167,744 according to The World Almanac and Book of Facts 2000).

http://www.oregonliteracy.org/oregon/stats.shtml

Like most people. Totalitarian dictators are hardly the nicest people, typically, so that's a strike against him. I don't know the truth behind allegations of human-rights abuses and the like simply because I've grown up in a propagandized environment. But I do know that he has done a lot of good for the people of Cuba, though it sounds like there is (or was recently) still a problem with poverty and access to amenities.

I've always been under the impression that Castro was not a 'communist' or, certainly, not anti-American, but that the knee-jerk reaction of the US after the overthrow of Batista and the ensuing plots against Castro basically drove Fidel toward Moscow. Didn't he go to university in Illinois? And the dude loves baseball - I've always understood that he was rather enamored of American life.

No matter what nastiness he may or may not have done, I have to give him credit for the brilliance of the Mariel boatlift. The US says "free your people! give us your huddled masses! etc, etc, etc" and he sends us his mentally-disturbed vbiolent offnders. Very slick. That this man, by most accounts a real character (despite his interminably boring speeches), has thumbed his nose at the world's most powerful nation for all these decades rather tickles me.

And, nowadays, the fact is that Cuba is no longer completely closed. Cubans can leave and tourists from any place but the USA can come and go and have a great time, sort of just like the old days (but without the Mafia). The US sanctions are a ridiculous relic, especially given that they've been long dropped against such direct adversaries as the PRC and Vietnam. It's pathetic to still marginalize this freaky little Caribbean island, and that's more so in this day when real communism has basically ceased to exist.

EDIT: one typo; left all the rest....

country under siege. From the beginning he has been hounded by the US's monstrous intelligence community. He kicked the Mafia and fascisti out of the country.

Maybe we should give him Florida for a few years to clean that place up. ;)



A fair way to evaluate him and his country is to open the door and have a balanced (not exclusively corporate controlled Press) look. It is very hard to get an accurate picture at present. Noam Chomsky says the obsession with Castro's Cuba is a fear by the Right in this country of seeing a Communist/Socialist success story.

This seems true to me, if it wasn't the Right would be falling all over themselves to let people in the US go see for themselves instead of obstructing free travel. IMO the real reason the Right hates Castro is because he succeeded in nationalizing industry and keeping Cubans for Cuba. There are far worse thugs: Suharto, Pinochet, Somoza etc. that the US supported. Those who attack Castro are using selective outrage.

Pinochet killed and imprisoned far less people than Castro. Somoza never had a refugee crisis.

If Castro is so great and Cuba so free, why do thousands of Cubans risk their lives to leave every year? Why do virtually all Cuban emigres hate Castro?

.. why do thousands of Cubans risk their lives to leave every year?"



For the same reason that immigrants from all over the Latin Americas and Caribbean come here.. more opportunity to make more money than at home.


The US offers 20,000 legal immigration visas per year to Cubans. The US does the background search.

BUT, Cubans who make it here illegally are offered immigration perks like no other nationality by the US Cuban Adjustment Act and the supplementary "wet foot/ dry foot" policy.

IF Cubans make it to the US, NO MATTER HOW, they get to stay and enjoy all of the benefits of the Cuban Adjustment Act. For Cubans exclusively, it offers instant work visa, instant qualification for a green card, instant sec 8 housing with an upper income exemption, instant social security, instant welfare (with some additional perks just for ex-Cubans).

PLUS, illegal Cuban entrants don't have to qualify for a legal visa background search for criminal records or mental illness diagnosis (required of everyone else who wants a legal US immigration visa).

There is nothing else that compares to this in US immigration policy. Nothing.


Many hundreds died "fleeing" Mexico to the US last year alone. People flock to the US from all over the Caribbean and Latin Americas -democracies-, risking their lives, and quite a lot die attempting, NONE are offered what Cuban immigrants are offered. But they still pour in.


Cuban immigrants are the only type of Americans, hyphenated Americans, or resident aliens allowed by the US gov to visit Cuba. They are a special class of "super" citizen in the US that have immigration perks, tax & income exemptions, and (unlike the rest of us in the USA) they have their FULL travel rights.


Why would about 100,000 Miami Cubans annually want to return, as they do, to the evil island of the evil Dr Castro that they "escaped" from? I'll tell you why.. they are not "escaping" Cuba. They are coming to America for the same reason that almost all immigrants have come here - (perceived) opportunity to make more money, and to send some of it home - except that Cubans are offered a little more opportunity to do so than other migrants entering the USA.

I have never, ever seen a such a ridiculous figure. 100,000 Miami Cubans each year? No f-in way.

Zuni, I don't mean to be offensive, but, there's obviously a LOT that you are unaware of relating to Cuba related issues. The more wild accusations you post the more you reveal your ignorance of the issue.


Lawyers Fight Cuba Travel Crackdown
http://www.nlg.org/cuba/cuba_travel_press_release.htm

House of Representatives has twice repudiated by voting to cut off funds, most recently on July 25th." Heitzer added, "There is also good reason to believe that Cuban Americans in practice are the largest-scale violators of the U.S. embargo by sending hundreds of millions of dollars 'illegally' to relatives and friends in Cuba and frequently violating the U.S. prohibition against going there more than once a year and only for 'family emergencies' -- yet they rarely receive OFAC warnings or fines." Of the 200,000 visitors from the US visited Cuba last year, 120,000 were Cuban Americans, and tens of thousands of other US citizens went without any US license.

people moving back.

Sorry-my bad

I qualify for it, but I when I called, I was told I couldn't even get on a waiting list for five years.

During the past few years I've had to radically adjust the way I view the world. I'm still reeling.

Pick Pinochet (do you have #s here?) what about Suharto (200,000 E. Timorese with a US greenlight), Saddam Hussein in the 80's, etc. Point is the US is selective in its outrage, lets not quibble about #S

As mentioned below thousands of people from many countries try to get into the US.

That number for US literacy is at odds with what I heard. It may be a question of "functional" literacy. I'm going to poke around and look for this.

But not as bad as the right-wing dictator who preceded him. Cuba now has a better health care and education system... but no 1st Amendment rights, like religious freedoms, press freedoms, etc.

In other words, it's a society I wouldn't want to live in. There could be no DU in it. And I wouldn't trade an ability to get cheaper aspirin at the hospital for my freedom n the U.S. to choose my own religion, even though there may still be stigmas here...

"There could be no DU in it."


Ignorance is bliss. :shrug:


The equivalent of DU is on Cuban TV almost every night. I've seen it. There are the 'round table' talk/phone-in shows wherein the guests and callers discuss every topic.. breaking news, Cuban politics at all levels, diet, health care, the international scene, the war on Iraq, tourism, including dissing Castro and various government policies. These shows go into great detail on subjects like the BFEE, the Florida rigged elections, the Miamicuban Jebster-supporting terrorists.. how do you like this.. Will Pitt was big hit in Cuba a while ago. Cuban TV is the closest thing to DU you can get on TV. We wish - here in America.

There are thousands of local and national independant newspapers and gossip newsrags all across Cuba, plus Cubans can tune into radio/TV stations from S florida, the Bahamas, Haiti/DR, etc. Satellite dishes are more and more common as people can afford them.

Many Cubans have computers and soon (economy permitting) there will be a full internet infrastructure in all of Cuba, but for now there are internet connected computers in almost all Cuban libraries and at the local CDR offices in every town. Everyone has email access for free.

Access to diverse information is not a problem in Cuba.. hard right wing, middle, hard left and everything in between.


Americans can't go and see this for themselves because of our own jackboot government - not the Cuban government. The Cuban people want the US government to lift the trade embargo and the travel sanctions imposed upon the American people and businesses who , by a majority, want to trade with and see Cuba for themselves. That, alone, would do more for the Cuban and American relations than anything else.

I didn't know they have call-ins. That sounds like C-Span!

I've known someone for several years who communicates with people she met on Cuba trips by e-mail regularly, and when I have heard people saying they don't aren't allowed to have computers, I knew someone was trying to put something over on someone.

As long as the Mismi Cuban Mafia can keep us out of Cuba, it'll be easy to keep the slower ones of us buying the outlandish propaganda they spin.

They should start getting worried now, knowing that their whole program is going to go, one way or another, and they will be exposed as lying @$$####$ who lied to the American people for their own selfish interests, and nothing else.

I'd say he had good intentions, but he soon went mad with power as any Cuban will tell you. He's as brutual a dictator as Baptista was and I can't wait till he's gone.

I don't particularly like Castro because he has absolute power which corrupts whoever holds it.
But what will you replace him with? A puppet government of the USA again a la Batista? Something like what they have had in El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala (dictators who killed their people and oppressed them)?
My test is: would I like to live there? The answer is no. So if I don't what it for myself, why would I want it for somebody else? But I am not sure that the US would allow Cuba to have the government they would prefer once Castro is out.
The economic stranglehold the US has put on Cuba is totally shameful, by the way.

There is a lot of propaganda about Castro from both the right wing and the left. Both sides have a specific agenda when it comes to Cuba.

From what I've deduced, Castro ruled benevolently on the stage, and ruthlessly behind the scenes. His vision for Cuba was good, but the sacrifices he made to achieve it, and try to maintain it, were not.

Just my two cents.

he killed and imprisoned more people than Pinochet. And Batista never had a refugee crisis.

(snip) If Chilean Dictator Stands Trial, It's a Whole New World

There is an old joke, much better known in Latin America than it is here, about US adventures abroad: Why has there never been a military coup in the United States? Answer: Because there's no U.S. embassy in Washington.

Needless to say, the joke is not well-understood among Washington's foreign policy elite. After all, they pretend to support democracy and oppose terrorism throughout the world. But one of the ugliest creatures of American intervention has now stumbled onto the center stage of world politics, and U.S. officials aren't quite sure how they can discreetly haul him off of it.

Chilean General Augusto Pinochet Ugarte was arrested in Britain two weeks ago, on the order of a Spanish magistrate who has charged him with crimes against humanity. Pinochet seized power in Chile twenty-five years ago, in a bloody military coup against the elected government of Salvador Allende Gossens. The Nixon Administration opposed Allende, and was massively involved in bringing Pinochet to power. Pinochet's government is widely known to have systematically murdered, tortured, and "disappeared" thousands of suspected political opponents during his seventeen year rule, including a Chilean and an American citizen killed by his secret police in Washington, D.C.

The dictator secured an amnesty for himself and his accomplices in Chile, for all crimes committed, and stepped down in 1990 to the post he created of "Senator for Life." But in 1996 Spanish prosecutors charged Pinochet and other Chilean, as well as Argentinean, military leaders, with terrorism and genocide. They asserted jurisdiction partly on the grounds that Spanish citizens were among the victims, and also on the basis of international law which provides that crimes against humanity are "universal crimes" which can be prosecuted by all nations. (snip/...)

http://www.cepr.net/columns/weisbrot%20II/if_chilean_dictator_stands_trial.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Would you be good enough to post a link to any source bearing out your charge that Fidel Castro killed tons of people?

If you put Pinochet + murdered tortured disappeared in google, you will find 2,380 items to examine. I'd sure like to examine real information on your Fidel Castro charges.d

On edit:
For DEMOCRATS who read this who might be interested, here's a link to:

"Chile and the United States:
Declassified Documents relating to
the Military Coup, 1970-1976"

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/nsaebb8.htm

Hope this might be interesting. I just started looking through the material.

In the very first pages, you see information about Michael Townley, who was one of the people who murdered Orlando Letellier, the Chilean diplomat, in Washington D.C., in his car, as well as his American assistant, Ronnie Moffit, and injuring her husband.

The Virgilio Paz they mention is a Cuban-exile, one of the bombers. There were two Cuban exiles involved in this murder. It's an ugly event, by ANY stretch of the imagination.

Since 1959 17000 Cubans have been executed. Thousands have been lobotomized. Over 100,000 have been impriosoned in Gulag conditions.

"he killed and imprisoned more people than Pinochet."

Post links that back up your claim please.



Here's some of the work of your lovely Batista,

Populace in Revolt in Santiago de Cuba - NYT 1957
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/cuban-rebels/NYT-6-10-57.htm

Creeping Revolt -NYT 1957
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/cuban-rebels/1-7-57.htm

Batista's Cuba
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/cuban-rebels/kirkpatrick.htm

Punishing Uncle Fidel
http://www.coastalpost.com/00/5/14.htm


What Castro Found

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

Even for most city dwellers, life was not all that rosy.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.

he was a dictator and corrupt as all hell.

My sources on Cuba include the Essay 'Communism in Latin America' by Pascal Fontaine. According to him 100,000+ Cubans have been imprisoned either in regular prisons or forced labor camps. 17,000 Cubans have been executed since 1959.
There were tens of thousands of people, including homosexuals, confined to mental institutions where lobotomies were regular until the 1980s.

The standards of Cuba in the 1950s were not much different than other third world countries. And You are admittedly usiong post-revolution CUBAN GOVT sources.

This is a gem from Pascal Fontaine, noted French writer!

(snip) Helping the youthful chivatos to keep potential dissenters in line are the Committees for Defense of the Revolution (CDR), the notorious "block committees" organized in every neighborhood to act as the eyes and ears of the secret police. "Members of the committees attend all CDR meetings and patrol constantly to root out ‘enemy infiltration,’" notes French scholar Pascal Fontaine in The Black Book of Communism. "The surveillance and denunciation system is so rigorous that family intimacy is almost nonexistent." Among the CDR’s most important tasks is to organize actos de repudio (acts of repudiation), ritualized quasi-lynch parties intended "to encourage reciprocal hatred between inhabitants of the small island." In the typical acto, the CDR assembles a mob in front of the suspected counter-revolutionary’s home to throw stones, chant slogans, deface the walls with Communist graffiti, and (sometimes) physically attack the victim and his family. The actos "destroy the links between neighbors and damage the fabric of society to bolster the omnipotence of the socialist state," explains Fontaine. Children conscripted into the "Pioneers Union" are required to participate in such orchestrated frenzies of hatred. (snip/...)

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2000/03-13-2000/vo16no06_children_gulag.htm

Take a look at this site! Astounding!

"More on Elián González
More on Communism"

Now for some of his scholarly work on the Sandanistas:

(snip) And, even closer to home, here is Pascal Fontaine writing about the Sandanistas in Nicaragua in the late 1970s and early 1980s:

Roughly 150,000 Indians live on the Atlantic coast of Nicaragua: the Miskito, Sumo, and Rama tribal groups, as well as creoles and Ladinas (those of mixed Spanish and Mayan ethnic background). Under previous regimes these groups had enjoyed a certain degree of autonomy and were excused from paying land taxes and from military service. Soon after coming to power, the Sandanistas began to attack the Indian communities, which were determined to hold onto their land and their language. Lyster Athders, the leader of the Alliance for Progress of the Miskitos and Sumo (Alpromisu), was arrested in August 1979 and killed two months later. Early in 1981 the national leaders of the Misurasata, a political organization that united several tribes, were arrested. On 21 February 1981 the armed forces killed seven Miskito Indians and wounded seventeen others. On 23 December 1981 in Leimus, the Sandanista army massacred seventy-five miners who had demanded payment of back wages. Another thirty-five miners suffered the same fate the next day.
And so on. The state of siege lasted until 1987, and, as Mr. Fontaine writes, “Fidel Castro played the role of mentor to the new regime.”
Here at The New Criterion, some of us have vivid memories of Daniel Ortega’s visit to New York in this period. He was feted with a grand party in the home of a well-known American pop singer, who lived in an apartment directly across the avenue from our offices. The New York Police Department had to station klieg lights and sharpshooters on the roof of the building to secure the safety of this Nicaraguan dictator and the crowd of radical-chic celebrants who turned out to praise the leader of the Nicaraguan revolution. The whole event had the atmosphere of a glamorous Hollywood opening. It was afterwards reported that one of Daniel Ortega’s missions in visiting New York was the purchase of the kind of fashionable sunglasses that could not be obtained at home. And let it be recalled that this was the period in which the liberal press in this country regularly castigated the Reagan administration for supporting the Nicaraguan Contras in their resistance to Ortega’s murderous regime. (snip/...)

http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/18/dec99/hilton.htm

Anyone who could POSSIBLY be stupid enough to believe any of this stuff definitely isn't playing with a full deck.

On edit:

Mika, I forgot to tell you. When I was posting on the US/Cuba Relations message board at CNN, before they dismantled all their message boards, the gusano posters drug this guy out and tried to pass him off as a credible authority. "Pascal Fontaine."

Pascal Fontaine, "slow-ly I turn...."

Step 1: Attack the source. Glad your googling was fruitful.

"Anyone who could POSSIBLY be stupid enough to believe any of this stuff definitely isn't playing with a full deck."

Obviously.

Of course it would help if you posted an article written by Fontaine himself and not some sites which simply quote him. Of course right wingers are going to quote Fontaine, his research backs up they want to believe. However, that doesn't speak to the validity of his research .

Try again.

I am of the left, but I hate dictators and find it disgusting that so many progressives want to worship a despot.

It also badly undermines the credibility of the left when they boast about how wonderful Castro is because he had a good education program.

Well Saddam Hussein also had a 1st class universal education system.

It is all true. Denuciation meetings were a common feature of communist regimes, particularly in Asia, especially in China.

I suggest you do a little more reasearch on Communism and communist movements around the world.

VERY INTERESTING.

The third one, by Lyman B. Kirkpatrick, Jr. was very intense:
(snip) It was a story of the progressive deterioration of the strength of the Batista government and an increase in strength of the opposition crystallizing around the July 26 movement of Fidel Castro. It was now a vicious and deadly cycle. As the terrorism of the opposition increased, the brutality of the police and military intelligence people became more horrible. I was told that the Bohemia, then one of the most popular picture-news weeklies in Cuba and widely circulated in Latin America, had been trying secretly to keep a tally of those tortured to death or executed by the police, and now estimated that as many as ten a week were killed in Havana alone.

I was skeptical, as my friends had known I would be. They had brought pictures to prove it. These photographs had been taken by a doctor of a woman who had come to him for treatment. She was a schoolteacher and had been arrested with one of her male students on suspicion of plotting against the government. They were taken by the police to a prison where they had been tortured. She had been severely beaten and he had been pounded into unconsciousness. They had been released because the teacher's sister fortunately had friends in high enough positions in the government to open the prison doors. The doctor who treated the woman said he had never seen a human body more mistreated. He had taken the pictures, with her permission, because there were still some who did not believe or realize what was going on. The horrible wounds on the woman's body were convincing, as were the reports of case after case of the sons of prominent Cuban families who had joined either the students' organization or the July 26 movement and had been arrested and killed. (snip)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I looked around in google, found something he wrote about the Bay of Pigs, concerning the "exiles" planning to attack Cuba:

(snip) It was in this atmosphere that President Eisenhower gave his permission to the CIA to provide support and guidance to Cuban exiles to plan and prepare an operation that would free their island of Castro.

This was a formidable task. While there were more than 200,000 Cuban exiles in the United States, they had in common only one asset for the operation--their desire to get rid of Castro. Among them the only ones qualified to either plan or participate in any such operation were the former officers and men of Batista's army. Most of these were hated by their fellow refugees and were a political drawback to any such effort.

There was no political unity among the Cuban refugees even though their ranks included many former political figures. In fact, there were over a hundred different exile groups and organizations and there was constant competition and maneuvering for position and most especially for United States support among them. The Cuban exile leaders used every door they could open in Washington for this purpose--in Congress, in the State and Defense Departments, in the CIA, and in the White House.

This competition for support was difficult enough in itself, but it had even more harmful by-products. Whether it was part of this competitive desire for support, or because of an inherent inability to comprehend the necessity for absolute and complete security in any such operation, the leaks about the operation from its very inception were horrendous. In fact, these leaks alone were sufficient to have justified dropping the entire project. That it was not dropped simply shows how anxious the United States was to get rid of Castro.

I heard one newspaper correspondent claim that he could spend a day in Miami visiting the gathering places of exiles and end up by knowing everything that was being planned against Cuba. I can believe it, with the qualification that it also would have contained a good deal of exaggeration: if every exile group that claimed the ability to land guerrillas in Cuba had been able to do it, Castro would never have had a chance. (snip/...)
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/bay-of-pigs/kirkpatrick.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then I discovered the author was the former Executive Director of the CIA. Hmmmm.

This is all so very, very odd, isn't it?

thats a spanking!

Castro is a pretty bad guy. Since he took power over 100,000 Cubans have been imprisoned either in prisons or forced work camps, many of them for political reasons. Over 17,000 political offenders have been shot.
That is far worse than Augusto Pinochet's unenlightened rule.
Castro also had thousands and thousands of people confined to mental institutions for things like being homosexual.
Thousands of these people were forced to undergo lobotomies.
He tolerates no political dissent.
He also helped prop up some very brutal regimes in Africa, especially the Dergue in Ethiopia, one of the bloodiest Afro-Communist regimes. His troops (mostly black--and black leftists say the US makes black troops pay the biggest price) also went to Angola, where they engaged in a massive smuggling ring, carting off hundreds of millions of dollars of diamonds, oil and other natural resources. (I am not sure how much Castro beneffited from black market transactions, but I am sure it was pretty significant).

and he continually does so.

'nuff said.

nt

this is beyond tedious.

It seems rather obvious.

I could make some cool techno to his repetitiveness :D

democrats good! greens bad!

nt

I hate to break it to you, but I would say that the vast majority of most Democrats aren't Castro suppoters and apologists like you.

Aren't supporters of fascist exiles and ignorant bean counter, like you.

But that doesn't mean he's 1000x better than fucking Batista.

Before Castro's revolution, Cuba was ruled by a dictator, United Fruit, and the mob. The country had an elite class of rich folk and extraordinary poverty. Castro can from a wealthy family - he was a lawyer and a Marxist, - and led the revolution that drove out Batista, the mob and the US interests...but he had the bad luck of doing all this during the early days of the cold war....when to be a Marxist was far worse than being a fascist.
Read the history of the era, - find out what he did to bring literacy to the entire country - total equality for minorities and women, - and how he accepted the help the Soviets gave him out of their own clever method of gaining a foothold in the hemisphere. The country has survived despite almost half a century of embargo. We give Cuba favorite trading partner status, - but keep the Cuban people in need just as we did the Iraqis - stupidly hoping for an internal uprising.
Many of my friends have been to Cuba recently (through Canada) and loved it. Anne Richards spoke about her trip with a business group a short while back. She admires the country and its progress despite all we have done to keep it down. Cuba makes the world's best medical prostheses, and has a school system that eductators come to study from all over the world, including the US.
Check out first hand reports...and understand that the country is poor, and poor people want to come to the US...where they get ten thousand dollars if they land on the soil...and twenty five thousand if a pregnant woman comes. Quite a lure.
Personally, - I've admired the man for many reasons....primarily for having burned his own family's sugar plantation first...before implementing his land reform goals while fighting in the hills. The CIA murdered Che Gueverra - his associate.... and tried to assassinate Castro nine different times. He's outlasted all who have tried to oust or kill him, and luaghs at the exiles in Florida who are the remnants of the supporters of the Batista dictatorship.

Always ask what came before. Then judge.

if the disgusting ignorant bigotry of so many DUers is the best even the Dems can do.

One of the worst 'crimes' of Castro was locking up a couple of people who distributed Bibles--if that is a crime that warrants 'ostricization', then so be it...
But we all know if the US approves of Cuba, then the rest of the crap in the Caribbeans will 'domino' and demand health care, dignity and a decent living on warm, sunny beaches...
It's getting to point that Castro is better than MOST American Presidents...
Castro won his wars

That the reason we repress any regime that works for social change is that it will have a domino effect.

He reflected this view majorly in his book "Latin America: From Colonization to Globalization".

People call Castro defenders "Castro apologists", but when taken as a whole, those who defend our current system and thier past and current are 'apologists' for much worse.

http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/dictator.htm

IS CASTRO A DICTATOR?

Any one of the deputies to Cuba's parliament, including Fidel Castro, are subject to recall at any time and must by law report back to mass meeting in their constituency once every six months.
If Castro is such a dictator, why did he receive such overwhelming support in the elections? Why is it also that his position as the country's President is decided by parliament and that members of his government are also voted in by parliament?

Here are some essential facts about the 1993 Elections to the National Assembly.

* The Cuban elections were the occasion for a massive show of resistance and unity in face of the US blockade.
* 99% of the electorate voted
* 7% of the ballots were spoiled.
* Of the 589 deputies, 80% of them were elected for the first time. Their average age is 43.
* 77% are men and 23% are women
* 59 of the deputies are peasants or agricultural workers.
* 46 are industrial or manual workers.
* 23 are trades union leaders.
* 25 are intellectual, artists and journalists.
* 29 are teachers and specialists, 10 are secondary and university student leaders.

========

IS CUBA DEMOCRATIC?

The Cuban revolution began with the struggle for democracy against the dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista. It was also a struggle for democracy in the broadest sense of winning the right of the Cuban nation to act as a sovereign power and shape its own future.

Out of the revolution there arose a number of mass popular organisations which to this day continue to wield considerable influence over Cuban society. These include the trade unions, the Federation of Cuban Women, the National Association of Small Farmers and, very importantly, the Committees for the Defence of the Revolution. All these have extraordinarily high levels of membership numbering in most cases around 95% of their potential constituency.
<snip>