How likely is another civil war in the US?

Regardless of who wins the final count in the presidential election next week, the next administration will be presiding over an unenviable social, economic, and political mess that the opposition party will seek to use to its advantage at every turn.

For those who would blame the corporate mass media for creating these conditions, I'd agree but I'd also add that things aren't so simple. There's a sizable number of people out there who aren't like us, media or not, and don't want to be. They're angry; we're angry. Take your pick of reasons: public sector vs. private sector health and unemployment insurance, education, prisons, etc.; "We are a Christian nation" (don't get me started on that one); immigration; gay rights; affirmative action; reparations to African Americans; environmental policy; energy policy; Native American issues. I apologize in advance for leaving out so many other bones of contention.

The tone of this election is perfectly consistent with that of the past four years: a president appointed under dubious circumstances by the Supreme Court who, far from choosing a centrist, bipartisan approach, transforms his weak mandate into an ambitious, far-right battering ram and intimidates anyone who raises the faintest objection. Although 9/11 and its aftermath briefly suspended the opposition's disbelief, Bush & Co. proceeded relentlessly, arrogantly forward with their plans of aggression, repression, and control, culminating in the disaster that is Iraq and bringing the national caldron to a slow boil. One week before Election Day, it has become a rolling boil, and whoever wins, the losing side or sides will be more inclined to fight than to make amends.

I ask my fellow DUers, where do you think this is going? Will we ever be one nation? Were we ever one nation? I guess I know that we never were, but can we ever be? We all need to pull in the same direction to make this country and this world work, but the tug-of-war seems only to be getting fiercer and meaner, and the clock is ticking. I'd like to know your thoughts.

I don't think we will need to go to such extremes as a civil war. I think we would to protect our democracy though.

That's what worries me. Far from ending the matter, it could be only the start of it. If a sizable part of *'s supporters refused to accept the authority of the Constitution and claimed that since freedom is a gift from God, God alone could judge *, we'd have a crisis. How far from that point to actual fighting? That's what scares me.

The issues now are quite different from what they were in the mid-nineteenth century, so I don't think the divide would be North-South as much as it is red-blue. It wouldn't be regional this time around, but much more ideological and ubiquitous--any given city vs. its more affluent suburbs, for instance.

... and if Putin style power is what Bush and the neo-cons are REALLY after, there is no way they'd allow enough people to vote to put a Democratic congress in place.

I don't worry though. If it comes down to it, the generals will take care of the petty little dictator who pretends to have the moral authority to command a military he mocks with his mistreatment and personal dishonor!!!!!

the upper echelons of the military are intelligent, and generally non-partisan. The ones you see on TV are b*shite kool-aid drinkers. I do not believe our military will allow this country to be driven into WW111 by an unelected chickenhawk.

I have to believe that. The alternative is too awful to contemplate.

REPUBLICANS are not going to impeach their own. They currently control all branches of the government. If this continues, there will NEVER be an impeachment of Shrub. I hear people throw around impeachment as an alternative all the time. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

I think you underestimate the feelings of many republicans.

Not a chance, sorry. Of course, if Kerry should win, I expect such a bill would be drafted by the time he's sworn in, and it will be a top priority for the 109th congress.

But people like my own Dem rep Boyd is a lap dog.

I do not really hear a lot of Pukes saying anything against the Chimperor now; why would they be frothing at the mouth to impeach him? Be a lot easier to get rid of him in the election.

Impeaching Shrub under extant conditions is as likely as elephants roosting in trees.

.. GOP Senators and Congressmen, they would act on it. I regularly call and email all the selected frauds in my state to give 'em a piece of my mind. I try to remind each and every one of them hat they work for me too!

Look what happened when the 911 women cornered Has*tert the oher day.. he listened and made a promise to the to push their issue (probably a lie) before Lame Duck session. THAT is what we need to do. Hassle them until they begin working for US.

but it takes tolerance. Tolerance from all sides. And it will take a willingness to let people chose their own lifestyles, despite whether or not one may agree with that.

The chances of this happening, historically speaking, are slim to none.

If things keep going the way they are, there is a possibility of another civil war, IMO, simply because right-wing fundies can't resist telling other people what to do.

I dont think tolerance will come easy. I know of some really sick and twisted invdividuals who really believe their crap.....

When the RW has their way and cuts out all the safety net, and the DLC Dems let it happen, and I supposed to smile and be "tolerant" as I slowly (and silently) die?

Is that the "lifestyle" I'm supposed to "embrace"?

Am I supposed to cheerfully support everyone else, in the name of "tolerance", and just calmly accept my own demise?

Y'know, we've already gone down that road, and it hasn't worked. The more we try to be pleasant and "tolerant", the more we lose.

Kanary, had enough of trying to be mother earth, dammit

their own choices that affect their own life.

None of the things you mentioned would fall under the tolerance category, IMO.

I guess my feeling about tolerance is that it has to be an agreed upon principle by ALL parties concerned. What you're talking about is very one sided -- that is, people doing things that would affect your life.

But I can fully understand why you're tired of trying to be Mother Earth. When I was younger, I wanted to 'change the world'. 20 years later, I got wise. People don't want to be saved. Collectively, it seems humans will be perfectly happy, singing 'God, Bless America' as they drive over a cliff. :-(

like a "gay lifestyle", etc.

You see, that's what's really sad to me. We've come to the point where the biggest issues are "choices". We've completely lost sight of the fact that there are *really* big things that affect not only people's quality of life, but literally whether they live or not.

To me, that is the price of affluence. It blunts our very awareness of others.

At least you understand that my survival isn't something I can put in the "tolerance" column.

I hope you can now understand that the very fact that this issue isn't on people's minds, and a priority, depresses the hell out of me, and makes it just about impossible for me to get very involved.

Because I just don't *COUNT*.

Kanary :(

just as much as we all count. Everything is necessary, as the saying goes.

I think you hit it when you said quality of life. Quality of Life. That's what Prisig was talking about in 'Lila', addressing the same concern you mentioned. People are missing the big picture. And on that I entirely agree with you.

Tolerance would be a given if everyone could see that picture, if everyone could agree on what constitutes Quality of Life. Therein lies the problem: what fundies see as 'clean, sober living', we see as a tasteless pergatory, of sorts, that falls far short Quality.

When I'm talking about "quality of life", I mean having a decent place to live, as opposed to being on the street, or living in a life-threatening hovel.

I'm talking about being able to afford supplements that help with constant pain, or preventing blindness, etc.

I"m talking about being able to send your kids off to school and know that they are not only safe, but are learning what they need to learn, in a happy way, so that they will be life-long learners.

I'm sure you get the idea....... quality of life means different things to different segments of the finanacial population.

I don't know who "Prisig" or "Lila" are.

You see, I suspect my "big picture" is different from your "big picture", and that gap is reflected throughout the nation.

Kanary

I think people ought to be able to have a place to live, food to eat, an education, and medical attention should they need it, the idea being that this is the base set of needs that will ultimately allow individuals to improve themselves and act in a more enlightened fashion, because they're not motivated by base survival instincts, which is what causes so much of the violence that we see today.

I might have described it differently, or used a different set of examples, but the big picture was the same.



Sorry you didn't understand my Pirsig reference. He's an author who wrote 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance', among others, 'Lila' being the follow up to that.

http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Literature/Authors/P/Pirsig,_Robert_M./

Like *everyone* should automatically be familiar with Pirsig.

:shrug:

This is why there is such a split in the Dem party now.

And, it will get bigger.

Kanary

I'm not sure I see your point there.

So long as people think you ought to have medical care, you know, should you ever need it, and food and a place to live should you ever need those, then I guess we all live in the same world. Not motivated anymore by your base survival instincts, you will be able to improve yourself you will act in a more enlightened fashion and be less violent. </mild sarcasm>

That sounds more like a threat to the poor than it does a compassionate progressive program to me.

You are so right about the split in the Democratic party, Kanary.

created in Star Trek ©

No threat to the poor intended. ;-)


I've used the 'Star Wars' vs 'Star Trek' vision of the future comparison before, because I believe it's a strong analogy. In one scenario (Star Wars) the control in facist, in the other (Star Trek) it's a republic (or a federation).

and it's getting larger.

Then, they wonder why people they don't take the time to understand stay away from politics, mostly don't try to get involved anymore, and don't listen to the pleas for their votes.

They know that every four years, there are people sniffing around, wanting their vote. Then, that's the last they hear from them for *another* four years.

Doesn't take too much to figure it out.

:(

Kanary, who is more and more convinced there will have to be a total implosion before the Dem Party "Gets It"

Too many people worried about what they "got" and how to keep it from others and not worrying about whether people have enough to live or not.

I see the attitude everyday. It's sickening and sometimes makes me wish the ambulance people hadn't saved me. Greed is destroying us as a nation.

I don't care about the religious right's way of life. They can do and believe whatever they damn well please, so long as they don't directly impose upon others' rights.

But that's not good enough for them. They ramble endlessly about freedom, yet so many of these moral majority nuts seem determined to socially engineer American citizens via the government, to arbitrarily criminalize personal behavior and force everybody to act and dress and talk like they want them to.

all this talk about freedom and liberty from a group of homogenous religious zealots who would just as soon see all us 'free thinkers' in concentration camps or executed.

Some freedom and liberty. :eyes:

Especially if your model is the first one...

The jobless young and jobless in general remain with out work, or at the working poor lv.
a draft is started again
energy prices rise to crazy lv's that no one can afford
If martial law is instituted and or civil rights are striped in some fashion blatantly
and theres another * by ( * ) name.

then i can see a tinderbox that reaches critical mass. some were at some place don't know if it will be wide spread + with modern war as it is I don't think it will be civil, do you honestly expect republicans and Dem's to show up on a battle field some were wearing red and blue respectively ( besides your local voting office) :) .
more like a general anarchy would ensue which could trigger more of the above mentioned things happening.
thats my 2 cents any way.

I agree with you. I think the struggle would be more diffuse and localized throughout the country, and it would involve people of all kinds. Think Haiti, Nicaragua, Guatemala--not Gettysburg.

This nightmare is sounding like The Turner Diaries, and I'd like to think we can do better than that. That's a RW trap, but how can we stay out of it?

The more rational republicans will actually be happy with a Kerry win. In many ways he is a known commodity on the hill. The other Senators have worked with him-and he with them. After the initial shock fades when the Kerry win is announced, we will see Republican leaders step forward to pledge they will work closely with Kerry and hold him accountable for the promises he has made to the American People.

Although right now I am of the opinion that all Republicans are the evil spawn of the devil-my more rational self tells me that there is hope for a raising up of more progressive values across the board. There are Republicans who are pro-choice. Many Republicans support stem cell research. We all want to have fiscal responsibility and elected Republicans don't want to continue to get those calls from their constituents about brothers, sons, daughters, and neighbors who are dying in Iraq

Hope is on the Way

LOL

Very well put!!!!

Carter and Clinton were both outsiders, unlike Johnson, who had spent years doing all the wheeling and dealing that Congresscritters need to do.

If he hadn't gotten bogged down in Viet Nam, he might have done much more in a 2nd term of his own. Of course, he made the big mistake of expanding the war while serving out the rest of JFK's term, and that brought him down.

Look at the legislation that * has gotten passed. Just last week, another corporate tax giveaway. This week a request for $70 billion more for Iraq. The key is to have the same party in control of Congress and the White House, but what door does it open? We were on the verge of a meltdown in the sixties, but we avoided it with ending the Vietnam war and the draft, affirmative action (or at least the beginnings of it), detente with the Soviet Union, and developing an economic relationship with China.

What rabbits are left to pull out of the hat now?

I hope Kerry wins and the crazy streak in the Republican party fades away. But they--and Osama--have been pushing the fear button with much success, thanks to their media collaborators.

My fear is that the rational Republicans will be driven from the party as ideologically impure, thus further polarizing opposing interest groups. What can prevent this is a return to sanity among most RW extremists. (I can't believe I just wrote that sentence. Maybe I should have put "return" in quotes.)

The more moderate Republicans want to rid themselves of the forced dependance upon the Fundegelical wing of the Party. They have had no support to free themselves.

With a Kerry mandate they can slip in a more moderate tone into their positions. They are politicians after-all....

I believe the Santoriums, the Delay's, the Frists, and their ilk will be cast into the gutter where they belong.

Hassart as speaker I have to say over-all has not proven himself to be very bright but neither is he driven by dogma. He'll turn and with McCain, Lugar, Rudy, Pataki, Arnoldator and that group pushing him so will the worm.

I was a kid when Goldwater represented the extreme right. He lost bigtime, and then it was Nixon's turn at bat. Ironically, Nixon represented the moderate wing of the party, and Reagan inherited the Goldwater wing. Nixon kept Reagan in check until Watergate. Bush the Brighter started out as a moderate but folded neatly under Ronbo's wing for eight years, and when he emerged for his own chance at the wheel, he pretty much continued what his former boss had started, thus subverting the party's more moderate elements.

Every now and then, we see a glimmer of hope as some Christie Whitman or another Rudy or Arnold or McCain makes a cameo appearance onstage and moderate Republicans coo about the Great Moderate Hope. Yet, when these guys pay their dues and do their good soldier routines, it is nearly impossible to tell them apart from their more extreme colleagues.

All this is a roundabout way of saying that I have lost hope in the existence of Republican moderates, let alone their ability to steer their party on a more balanced course. The true moderates, I think, will eventually either jump ship or be made to walk the plank.

If I could go back to 1974 and tell my teenaged self that, 30 years hence, I would be nostalgic for the Republican president who had just resigned in disgrace and put the country through hell, I wouldn't know whether to laugh or cry.

We are headed for serious trouble. Non-americans I know can't believe the way we allow religion to play a part in government. Where they come from, any politician who spouted religious platitudes the way american politicians regularly do would be abruptly voted out of office.

The sizable fundie population is so focused on the next world that they are incapable of seeing, or caring about, the damage they are doing to this one.

We've never had a religious war in this country. They have no idea what they are unleashing in their quest for armageddon.

Pat is a Politician not a man of God. He no more wants Armageddon than he does a kick in the groin. He knows that Bush world has spiraled out of control. Why do you think he contradicted Bush the other day about the amount of casualties in the war. He believed Bush at the time. Pat Robertson is above all else an opportunist with a lust for attention. With Bush out of the White House his voice will be diminished. However,
We will need to fight this scourge of evil disguised as religion to the end. They are truly the American Taliban and in time we will be able to name them as such.

I gotta believe though we won't be lead into violence amongst ourselves.

I have been thinking along those lines. It's a very interesting coalition supporting Kerry (many mostly to get rid of Bush)...will it hold after the election? Kerry will not be able to simply wave his hand and have all problems disappear.Aside from what the right wing extremists will do... what will we do? will all forces that supported Kerry have the patience to rebuild ( or build) the country and the planet. After the simple relief of having Bush off our backs, what next? Where will all the enormous energy generated by the campaign go?
Just some thoughts.

when it is neighbor against neighbor?

This isn't a red state/blue state issue.

street. The village down the road.

Look at 'Bloody Kansas'.

That's what most civil wars are.

That's the only thing that will keep the kettle from bursting, IMO.

it may start out, be "framed," as such, but it will actually have to do with economic/ethnic issues that are not of interest to either party or the voting class.

Perhaps much sooner.

I think no matter who wins this "election", Civil War is a certainty by 2100.

If Bunnypants* reatains the throne he sezied in 2000, there are only 2 choices:

1) Soviet-style Orwellian Bushevik Tyranny

2) Civil War as Free America fights back

These may be our only choices regardless, given the history of every nation like ours since history began.

...
These laws would forbid voter suppression and levy mandatory jail time for those who attempt to stop others from voting. The laws could be pursued by any level of prosecutorial agency (federal, state, local) as well as private citizens!!!!

2 months mandatory minimum for each person purged from voting list, intentionally mis-registered, or brow-beaten away from a polling place.

Conspiracy for voter suppression would include activities for corrupt election officials like moving polling places around shortly before elections, under-printing ballots (when sound advice showed more were needed), understaffing and underfunding of elections apparatus, etc...

The official religion of this nation is DEMOCRACY!!!! We must hold it sacrosanct and persecute all those who attempt to render it asunder!!!! This is the only way we keep our integrity as a nation.

As for the Fauxdamentalists, they think they are the majority. They clearly are not (expect for stupid red/blue comparisons by acreage that undermine the concepts of democracy!!!). Getting up the voting numbers will show everyone where the middle road lies.

Inevitably, money and influence follows power. And when the meak are impowered, they will inherit the influence in money and media that the conservative currently control!!!!

The key is that Democrats have to STOP playing the little dirty tricks. They have to ACCEPT that dark colored people should hold office in Chicago. Even OMG, a black mayor in lieu of the next 7 generations of Daleys!!!!!

At work yesterday republican collegues I work with said they plan on voting Tuesday but 4 of them said they already mailed absentee ballots a couple weeks ago. F**Kers 1 idiot said he sent out at least 10 Absentee Ballots between North, South & Central Florida & he uses relatives addresses

OMG I am pissed off

They may be able to knock out duplicate ballots!!!!

and possibly police...

theProdigal

History proves that in time, the union will disolve. It may disolve next week, or it could be 500 years from now, but disolve it will... nothing lasts forever.

Perhaps, the question is, when it disolves, will it disolve violently? I don't know... it's likely too.

Here is what is clear to me: The stage is set, the animosity is in place and in time, we will turn on one another...

It'll probably start with one side or the other getting "sick of it" and seizing the reigns of one state by force, and cascade out from there. After that it will be easy enough to seize the voter registration rolls and begin mass deportations of people based on their political beliefs. States like California will probably be battlegrounds and end up dividing (leading to combat in some situations), but I would expect that across most of the country you will simply see a mass exodus. The Republicans will flee New York, and the Democrats will flee Texas, and the scene will be repeated across every state in the union. Once those ideological separations are complete, the division of the nation will probably be overseen by men with pens, not guns. It simply isn't in the interest of either side to have another war with destruction on the scale of the first Civil War.

Personally I believe that the "peacefulness" of the separation really depends on our own party. Many Republicans would be perfectly content to divide the union and establish a real conservative nation, but the Democratic Party won't allow it to happen for obvious reasons. If faced with the options of a peaceful separation or a war for unity, I have to wonder which they would choose.

They aren't content with "live and let live". They're attitude is "live my way or else!!!!".

Oh no, if they decided to part ways with civil Democracy, they would want to take every single asset of the United States with them!!! My ass, conservatives would walk away from New York City, Los Angeles and Chicago, the three biggest center of commerce in the US. They fancy themselves lords of those places. Lords simply don't get up and leave. They hire thugs from outside to come in and put the rabble in their place!!!!!

And any coming civil war will make the first one look like a fist fight at a church social.

The only thing missing is the sound of domestic gunfire. The verbal civil war is played out everyday; the economic civil war is obviously underway; the only thing missing is the literal gunshot. It's not necessary to have the actual firepower buzzing through the air in order to conduct a civil war. The consequences of what we do each day can ultimately lead there but more probably will end in a social, and economic meltdown which leads us vulnerable to attack by outside enemies.

Our "civil" war is just more "civil" than the war between the states fought when Lincoln was president but the resulting turmoil and demise of our war is measured through other guages. Death of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness by half the nation. Death of pride in our nation and reputation. Death by poverty. Death by lack of medical care. Death by despair. Death of dignity.

Perhaps it is not the sudden death found by the impact of gunfire, but it is just as permanent, just as fatal. It can be the cessation of life in America as we have known it, and the beginning of all that the Republicans have dreamed of for years but feared they would never achieve. So no, I don't think the civil war is a future threat; the threat is here now. It's a civil war wearing an uncivil, unorthodox disguise. We have to decide how we will win it.

Tolerated and allowed, because the Dem party has lost poverty as an issue.

Because there is simply too much affluence in this country, and that causes a blindness towards those left out of that position.

Death.

Death.

And more death.

All silent, and unmourned.

Kanary

It will be our demise.

But it is starting to get warm.

People get angry. They want changes. Other people don't. Violence ensues. Civil war? Revolution? I don't think they're mutually exclusive. They're more like evil twins.

but if things get worse there could definitely be violence.



3DO

I just hope we can keep the extremists in check, to see it doesn't go any farther. A lot rides on 11/2.

Welcome to DU Threedifferentones!

There's barely enough real fight in our military, let alone the civilians. The first people to try to rise up militarily will be quickly put down, probably very visibly, so as to discourage anyone else with similar intentions. That won't have to happen more than a couple of times for people to give it up. Most Americans hate the idea of having a war in their own back yard, which is partly why so many were willing to go kick some ass after 9/11. What's most likely to happen is that the uneasy coalitions will slowly crumble in petty arguments over their differences, people will go back to worrying more about who wins American Idol than anything political, and the losing team will quietly prepare for a coup at the next election.

Sort of the Mencken scenario: "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." Lassitude, inertia, and fear turn even the mightiest fundie into a whimpering idiot. Not all that drastic a transformation, when you think about it.

They will just sit back, roll around in their taxpayer-funded money-stuffed mattresses and great healthcare while the pompous citizens do all the dirty work, wading in blood up to their armpits.

Our political system takes us for granted as fools.

None of us can tell the future. And it would take a LOT to start a civil war.

Indeed, look at Iraq: A country invaded by selfish desire and a supposed threat of having big weapons. Their own people are in civil war, blowing each other to bits with us chanting for one side and calling the others terrorists.

Now look at what might be: The US could be invaded, for similar reasons if we start bulldozing into too many countries and then discovered we were lying, with the rest of the world helping us take sides aganst each other.

But the future isn't determined by a crystal ball.

Until the electoral college is eliminated, and there is a "one man one vote" winner take all, this nation will remain divided.

The major problem is the so-called super-patriots of the red southern states that believe everything can be solved by more Jesus or more Guns!

One only needs to ask where is the incentive to vote in those states when poll projections say a democratic vote will carry no weight. That may well be, but democrats in a republican leaning state are part of the United States, not just part of the red state.

Until a democrat in a red state, or a republican in a blue state feel their vote is valid, and the will of the people will be the deciding factor, voter turn-out will be low in comparison to those eligible, and the nation will continue it's regional divisiveness.

OP

Many will argue it was not a Civil War, entire books have been written regarding what to even call this the ultimate American Tragedy. One fact remains it was initially empowered by an election and deeply divided electorate, who could not accept the election results.

Sound familiar?

Don't fool yourself it could happen, this time it would not be a regional conflict but a true Civil War. I pray it doesn't happen.

I was hoping to see how wrong I was in fearing the worst. So far the best argument against civil war is public indifference and inertia, but if you think of politics as a game of strip poker, you soon realize that even the most laid-back player has got to wake up and become very interested if he or she is about to be naked, cold, and completely humiliated.

Too many wedge issues compounded by a predatory win at all cost attitude from our leaders. This has potential to spiral out of control. Bush is banking on that it won't happen, he may have done too well in energizing his peripheral supporters, who feel their rights are threatened. With a coming economic crisis (probably inevitable) watch out. It would be a Civil War not a Revolution as some suggested here.

As happened 140 years ago the only hope will be to follow who best represents the Constitution. At some point even Duers and Freeper will have to choose.

16) There is a civil war in the United States that starts in 2005. That conflict flares up and down for 10 years. In 2015, Russia launches a nuclear strike against the major cities in the United States (which is the "other side" of the civil war from my perspective), China and Europe. The United States counter attacks. The US cities are destroyed along with the AFE (American Federal Empire)...thus we (in the country) won. The European Union and China were also destroyed. Russia is now our largest trading partner and the Capitol of the US was moved to Omaha Nebraska.


www.johntitor.com

This is not a good time to have one's head planted in nonsense.

RTP

1) Kerry wins and a serious effort is made to bring the Bush administration to justice....all criminality and illegality is fully prosecuted and brought into the light for the public and world to see....re-establish no man/woman is above the law, the Constitution and seek to establish a new principle of Obstruction of Democracy....

2) War Powers Act should be declared unconstitutional and the Supreme Court should reaffirm ONLY Congress can commit our military to war or conflicts....

3) Electoral College system should be abolished in favor of a direct presidential vote or at a minimum, a States delegates to a given candidate should be based upon that candidates proportion of the popular vote (like Colorado is now doing)....

4) The Supreme Court should declare corporations are not equal to individuals and money is not equal to speech and Congress should set absolute limits on both in elections....campaign season should not begin any earlier than 60 days before an election....and in the elections, all votes will be tabulated with the accuracy and security of international financial transactions....

5) Kerry, at the outset, should try to convince the world that the Bush administrtion was an an aberration and new laws/procedures have been established making another imperial presidency or war, impossible....

If these minimums are done, I feel confident about our countrys' future and it's ability to avoid a civil war....

we do need to have

one person/one vote -- and votes highly audited & secure
the bush/neocon mafia TOTALLY brought out of the darkness & into awareness
corporations curtailed in their ABILITY to sway government

and I'll add:

REAL TIGHT CONTROLS over who can "own" the media/control propaganda

The media has been SOOOOO complicit in this civil war. When you tune into satelite TV, and have Nazi wars going on 3 different channels, you know that there is some "instigating" going on. When you have talk shows that create spikes in testosterone in men (proven from studies) and discord across the board, with little intelligent, educational information, you are doing nothing but DUMBING DOWN SOCIETY and advocating for violence.

I will also add that schools need to teach HEAVILY on civics and history and government; not just for the U.S., but for all the world. I am totally appalled at the number of Americans who don't even know what is written in our constitution. I am also appalled at the IGNORANCE our society shows of the culture and history of other countries and traditions.

IGNORANCE is the root of racism and hatred. That needs to be corrected, and it needs to be corrected NOW. If the globe is shrinking, we need to understand our neighbors, and they need to understand us.

:kick::kick::kick:

and it's an interesting idea, with some kernel of truth. We don't live in the kind of society where a civil war like that of the 1860s would happen. However, sharp divides and sharp hostilties, based around broad philosophical/ideological ideas (on the surface)...fed by money, proxy organizations, and the media...that, we already have. I suppose you might say it started in the 80s, geared up during the 90s, and reached a rolling boil since 2000. I am assuming that Kerry will take office and when he does, the forces that set their sights on Clinton will seem like fluffy kitties in comparison, I suspect.

Cold civil war might actually be an apt term.

however the sides are not cleary defined. Because there are so many political and cultural differences, as well as economic differences, I doubt there will be out and out war. I do believe a viable 3rd party will emerge soon. The republican party is dividing sharply. Media and religion are the culprit, but I believe now that they are exposed, rational minds can start making repairs. The Repubs allowed operatives to use cult mentality and recruiting methods to build their base. The strange bedfellows are about to be kicked out of bed. The fact that many prominent conservatives are not supporting Bush is very significant. Big changes coming.

Just my 2 cents.

...it would require too much effort, energy and initiative.

Despite the fact that this very same question gets posted every week.

If Kerry wins, I would expect more "pro-life" attacks on abortion clinics. Some assasination attempts on "commie" anti-war politicians.

But, civil war? Maybe, in the future, when the economy melts down. The question then will be, what side will the military be on?

It wont last forever. If bush is "appointed" again the outrage will be tremendous! I can easilly see the military being brought in to stop violence and that will only cause more rage. Because of this, the US economy will fall into shambles and possibly? the euro becomes the currency(doing better than the dollar at the moment?)But if Kerry is elected, the tide could be turned and things could turn out ok.

Next Tuesday GWB will not be elected. He may be the Prez, but I can guarantee he will not be elected!

With the conservatives demonstrating that they can't play nice when they lose(Clinton impeachment after spending 70 million dollars on a failed far flung investigation) it is becoming ever more apparent that the RW fundie population of this country is becoming ever more willing to flaunt the law and morals in order to continue in power.

If Kerry whens, there will be much wailing and teeth gnashing by the RW in this country. While many RWers are too complacent or lazy to do nothing other than bitch, an ever growing contigent of the RW is becoming ever more willing to resort to violence in order to bring about the conservative Christian nation they crave. If Kerry whens, this will prompt many of these people to start looking at violent alternatives. Militias will rise again, hate crimes will increase, and it is probable that another militant fundy like McVeigh will conduct another mass attack "on the gubmint"

Civility and tolerance will continue to decline, and many of the freeper types will resort to shooting in order to even the score. Escalation of violence will continue, especially if Kerry manages to the US out of Iraq. Expect that a peace protest somewhere will be fired upon, either by law enforcement or civilians blinded by hate.

What will be the final straw that precipitates the dissolution of the US, who knows. In fact, it may not be one single incident like Ft. Sumter. It could very well be an ongoing slide into violence and war. And the borders will not be as clearly delineated as it was 140 years ago. Instead, it will be much like Missouri was back then, with brother against brother, neighbor against neighbor, small scale battles with few combatants, but many occuring every day. Even "civilians" will not be left out, as every person will have to choose sides, some at the barrel end of a gun. Chaos and anarchy reigning for a long time.

It won't be pretty, and the best advice I can give you is that you start preparing now. Fifteen years ago, I thought that it would occur in the 2030s. Now I think that it will happen within the next ten years.

:puke:

Ummm, I hate to bring this up, but didn't all of the independantly done recounts conclude that Bush won the election?

i don't think we have the tolerance for another war. outside the lunatic fringe, i think most poepl of all political persuasions want to keep on keeping on. i think we will see radical chnges, but no out and out war. skirmishes, yes. war, no.

But that might change in ten minutes.

I would like to present a post i made the other day and then 2 links to take into consideration.

I would like to share a scary moment I had at work
yesterday.

First, my boss is a Christian and a repub and very
willing to talk about his faith.

I was speaking to him about some things that scared me about
bush as a leader of this country and bush's somewhat
radical view of religion. Comparing it to say, Pat Robertson,
as in Robertson steering hurricanes with prayer. Also, Bush's
idea that "the Constitution" is his to rewrite to suit his religion
and impose it on the rest of the country. And just touching on
the idea of maybe Bush wanting to envoke the second coming of Christ.

What I learned of my boss that day is truly disturbing, he infact did beleive that
prayer could steer hurricanes and that God through prayer could do anything (no i'm not kinding).
He also got very excited (in a happy way) that he beleived the second coming was
already set in progress and would be in his lifetime (hes 50 now). He was "very happy" about this! and put it to me as fact!

This is considered sane?!? He is allowed to own firearms!



and the links
http://www.ericblumrich.com/faith.html
http://www.retrovsmetro.org/

And steer him here: http://www.antipasministries.com/

He is a minister with an, I'd say a cultist attitude.

I wonder how he feels pulling for the anti-christ. But too many see the church as a way to riches. It's sad really.

isn't it? What gets me is this country was founded by men of the enlightenment. What the heck happened? I live in NC too, and I see these ignorant people. Rapture, God Bless America, and GW bumper stickers. At times, it's a thinking person's nightmare.

I live near Raleigh and all I see is Boosh stickers.

If anyone saw that piece on CNN, Sunday night at 8:00pm

It represented exactly what I'm talking about (southern Baptist
rightwingers) One woman said during the show " I can't take it anymore
and am ready for Christ to come" EEEKKKKK!!!

"What gets me is this country was founded by men of the enlightenment. What the heck happened?"

I contemplate that all the time. I blame lots of it on affluence which was quickly accelerated by TV which gave Madison Avenue a perfect venue to brainwash the sheeple. I think many people were comforted when after 9/11 * said to go shopping. "Oh good, my comfy little life won't be disrupted. Thank God, I'm not being asked to make any sacrifices!" as 15,000 Iraqi's die.

I can't help but be totally disgusted with anyone who would vote for *. Can't help it. I think their mindset is to totally contrary to mine -- no, more than that - it's totally contrary to what is good & decent.

Reasons given:

1) A real lack of dominance by one side of the political aisle of any region. By that I mean even if its 60-40 that is still a large enough margin to stave off inter-regional battles(ie" MidWest vs. NorthEast etc etc)

2) The one who would "got to war" over their beliefs are a piddling few...that's a good thing

3) If it didn't happen during the middle of Vietnam and the Civil Rights movement, it just isn't going to happen now.

People these days are too "busy"..and the "haves", pretty much ignore the "have-nots".

Have-nots are scattered all over the place, and would have a hard time linking up to do anything very effective..

I think we will just go on verbally sniping at each other, and until the haves are dragged down (eliminating the middle class) not much willl change..

In almost every society, the peasants do eventually revolt, but not until they are so desperate that they don't fear death.. (sound familiar??)

there has already been a cold civil war going on for the past 30 years or so

we progressives just didn't know it

'cause when you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose.