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We are the Nazis, not the good guys in Iraq...

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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:54 PM
Original message
We are the Nazis, not the good guys in Iraq...
I was reading the thread below and thinking that the whole attempt to expoit the success of our country in defeating the Nazis by equating the Iraq invasion to WWII is totally bogus. We are the Nazis. Saddam was a dictator. So what? He did not and probably could not invade his neighbors. He had no WMDs. The Bush junta knew that and invaded because they coveted Iraq and its oil. That makes us the Nazis.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=8725
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Exactly... some of those European countries Hitler invaded had dictators
....doesn't mean Hitler was right in doing so.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Saw this from the very beginning.
I even saw how they manipulated the imagery just like the Nazis. The way Bush would only speak when he was surrounded by dressed military and all the flags and symbols going on. He used patriotism to gin up false hatred just like the Nazis did. Everybody all wrapped up in the fervor and excitement of a wartime propagandist. Yep. Saw it all right away. Even the helmets on our military look like Nazi helmets now.
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. Meet the new boss
same as the old boss.

We have liberated Iraq from the iron fist of Saddam, but how much better is it, really? The Iraqis are free to do what now? I guess they can march in the streets in opposition to the US but they could do that before.

MzPip
:dem:
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Iluvleiberman Donating Member (261 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. At least their women don't have to worry about
being rounded up and raped in some dungeon.

That's the only good thing
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oldcoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. The conditions in Iraq are worse for women now than under Hussein
Since the invasion, the number of rapes has increased and many Iraqi women are afraid to leave their homes. For more information, see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3070063.stm .
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. then you are misinformored....
please read oldcoots link...
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carpetbagger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. We are not the Nazis.
The Nazi rhetoric could have rightfully applied to Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait, but he was stopped and was no longer a direct threat to other nations.

While our police tactics have been rightfully criticized for being heavy-handed at times, and our soldiers are in a confusing situation where mistakes will continue to be made, I have yet to see one purposeful killing of an Iraqi civilian.

While our government seems primarily interested at sweetheart economic deals, we have provided protection for the Kurds since the 1990's, allowing them to live largely free of Baathist genocide. While we dropped the ball in 1991 there and in the south, we have given the Shia freedoms they have not seen in decades.

Sure, this was a half-assed, half-baked war plan, which led to the inevitable breakdown of law, order, and supplies and services, but it's a far cry when compared to what the Nazis did in Poland, Denmark, France, and the other places it conquered.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Saddam was right for invading Kuwait
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 07:24 PM by NNN0LHI
The Kuwatis using US oil companies began slant drilling into Iraqs oil fields under their border stealing Iraqs oil. The US would have done the same thing if someone was doing that beneath our borders. Hate to burst your bubble, but thats the truth. Go to Google and enter Kuwait+Iraq+slant drilling drilling and see what you get. Here is an example from the Associated Press. There are more.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030121-iraq02.htm

A war in Iraq would focus on Saddam Hussein as the 'center of gravity'

The Associated Press January 21, 2003

<snip>That conflict came after Saddam invaded Kuwait in August 1990, accusing the neighboring emirate of using "slant drilling" to infringe on Iraq's oil fields, and of cheapening Iraqi oil by overproducing its own. He nullified debts owed Kuwait from Iraq's eight-year war against Iran, and "re-annexed" Kuwait as Iraq's 19th province.

http://www.scn.org/wwfor/iraqhist.html

IRAQ HISTORY

May 1990 - At Arab summit Saddam accuses Gulf states of waging economic war against Iraq. The Iraq economy has been devastated by the war. Iraq had borrowed billions to wage war against Iran. Price of oil was down because Gulf states were dumping oil on world market. Kuwait was slant drilling with American equipment into Iraqi oilfields. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia at behest of U.S. demanded immediate repayment of loans to Iraq.

July 1990 -- Saddam accuses Kuwait of conspiring to destroy Iraq economy. Iraq troops mass on Iraq border

August 2, 1990 -Iraq invades Kuwait.


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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Invading another nation can't be right IMHO
The GW1 wasn't as one-sided as widely believed - granted.
The rumors about Saddam asking Senior for permission before attacking aren't fading either.



However: Iraq attacked another nation - I don't thing a war of aggression can be justified by economic reasons. In fact I have my problems with the idea that a war of aggression can be justified at all.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. We go to war for economic reasons all the time
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 07:47 PM by NNN0LHI
But I think (hope) you know that? What should Saddam have done? Sat back and watched as his counties national recources were plundered. You must be joking?

Don

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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I do
:hi:
the "right" part is my problem, not the interpretation of the events.

Henry
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I edited my post while you were posting and added this
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 08:47 PM by NNN0LHI
>>>What should Saddam have done? Sat back and watched as his counties national resources were plundered. You must be joking?<<<

Sorry, as I did not mean to goof up anything. Take care and peace.

Don

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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. I can't believe you are defending Saddam Hussein and Iraq
Shame on you. Shame on you. There are lot of other words I could say to you, but DU rules won't allow me to denounce you to the extent that I think is appropriate.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Does America have the right to protect her national resources Juan?
Tell me America doesn't have that right. I dare you to say we don't have that right.

Don

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
39. saw that coming
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. We are not the Nazis, but BFEE is full of them
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. Canned goods.
Operation "canned goods" was the Nazi code word to create an incident to invade Poland. Although Poland had gladly benefited from the carving up of Czschecoslavakia, so they weren't all innocent in this, they were sitting ducks for the next act of aggression from Germany.

The original plan was to attack a German radio station in Poland on the German border as well as other installations. Concentration camp prisoners were to be brought in dressed in Polish uniforms, drugged and shot to show they had been killed after attacking.

The actual incidents dressed up SS officers in polish uniforms and used the drugged inmates as casualties. (All the SS men who wore Polish uniforms were "put out of the way" according to testimony at Nuremberg.) The next day Hitler announced his justification to attack Poland.

So since it is impossible right now for us to know the extent that this administration has gone to to invade and secure this country of Iraq, we have to fall back on the WMD excuse. I am reminded of the babies thrown from incubators lies from the first Gulf War. Why exactly did we so cold-bloodedly bomb Baghdad in the beginning? Were there other options? Why didn't they want the UN nosing around?

The problem is that we really don't know what is going on and why. Will it take a Nuremberg to expose the truth?
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. I was wondering the same thing myself
Have you noticed how many photos are "staged", like the one of bush at Mt. Rushmore? Notice how when he held the speech, his face was turned so it was positioned close to the faces, and in the same profile?

I've also seen photos of him standing "next to" President Washington, the US flag, the Washington monument, etc. These are all rigged, to give him credibility. I was almost expecting to see a photo of him sitting in Lincoln's lap at the Lincoln memorial. But other people in the administration are shown like that, too.

The bottom line is, no wonder this administration is in a state of disarray. They've focused all their energy on 'spin', image, gloss, hype. There's been no time to get anything done. It's all been a photo-op.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. Actually, just "infidels"
which is worse to an Iraqi than a Nazi.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
16. And Iraq is Poland... (pic)
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. Sorry I don't buy into the "Blame America First:" rhetoric
We aren't Nazis. And your post is really offensive.
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. We aren't Nazis Carlos, but BFEE is.
There is no apologizing for their actions going back to Bush I. If you go over the rise of the Bushes step by step, it is so similar to how Hitler gained power it's really scary. I don't mean the incidents are exactly the same, but the methods and ideology or excuses behind the methods are.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. some can't admit to ANY of americas crimes for some reason...
NATIONALISM can be very scary and another parallel

:hi:

peace
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barbaraann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. And yet another GOP talking point to rebut.
I am really tired of this.

No one is "Blaming America..."

We are blaming the BUSH ADMINISTRATION aka the BFEE.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. no one is blaming America...
ask most Europeans! They do not blame us so get a grip, they blame our "leadership" AKA the BFEE.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
37. Sorry, I don't buy that you are a liberal
but HEY! Everybody can have an opinion, right?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. not even close I'm afraid
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catpower2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
22. Is it possible to discuss this issue without using the word Nazi?
On EITHER side??

Now, look. IMO, on a message board, if someone has to start tossing the word "Nazi" around, they are deliberately using inflammatory rhetoric because their arguments are weak.

This shows no respect for Holocaust victims or their descendents. Bush and Co. and Saddam are bad enough on their own, there's no need to throw fuel on the fire by using the "N" word.

Cat
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. how bout FACISM?
thats better :hi:

peace
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Nazi and facism are really interchangeable words
in this context aren't they? I mean calling a something a PC name doesn't change what it is. Not only that there is a resurgence of Nazism amongst militia type groups and they call themselves Nazis so I think you need to accept this word as the truth.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. well i disagree, and one of the ways we can honor those who perished
is to never forget and to look for the warning signs.

i'd say we would be remiss not to point out some of the parallels of the rise of facism/imperialism

I know i rather err on the side of caution when in doubt to something as dangerous as FACISM.

we need not list the transgressions that have passed us by so ominously these past 2 and 1/2 years...

i agree we have certainly not yet risen to the full horror that hitler proved to be in the end... but we are only at the begining of the new american century and look how swell things have gone thus far.

if we stay the course wwIII is sure to follow... hitlers horrors won't compare i fear.

and so it goes...

peace
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. If Ashcrof had the same power Hitler had
there would be extermination camps in America as they were in Nazi Germany. The Bush criminal regime has yet to obtain the level of power that Hitler enjoyed in Germany, but it is coming.

Have any of you heard Ashcroft speak of the Victory Act?
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. that may be DEBATABLE - PATRIOT ACT
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. You missed the memo, bp!
Patriot Act II is now called the Victory Act, and Ashcroft is going around the country extolling its virtues.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. D'oh!
Victory Act... how fitting

:scared:

peace
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Vital Interdiction of Criminal Terrorist Organizations Act of 2003
A nice blend of Plan Colombia, War on Drugs, with the PATRIOT Act, and the reclassifying of anything under the sun as "terrorist activities," is intended to squash any opposition (peaceful or not) to global American interests. For example, WTO demonstrators could be targeted as terrorists!

Be afraid, very afraid!

Target: 'Narco-Terror'
Draft Bill Would Provide Broader Power; Ashcroft Defends Patriot Act

By Dean Schabner


Aug. 20 — As Attorney General John Ashcroft barnstorms the country to bolster support for the controversial USA Patriot Act, a new bill is quietly circulating on Capitol Hill to give even greater powers to law enforcement — in the name of fighting drug trafficking.

ABCNEWS.com has obtained a draft of the Vital Interdiction of Criminal Terrorist Organizations Act of 2003, or VICTORY Act, which could be introduced to Congress this fall, and which appears to have been prepared by the office of Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

The measure would give law enforcement increased subpoena powers and more leeway over wire-tap evidence and on classifying some drug offenses as terrorism.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/WorldNewsTonight/victory_act030820.html
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Camps were part of Germany
even during the Weimar Republic. They were work camps that criminals were sent to as part of their sentences. It was the Nazis that raised them to the level of extermination camps complete with ovens. By this time they were used to incarcerate Jews, Slavs, Gypsies and anyone who didn't march in lockstep with the regime, but remember the camps were already there.

We have prisons, here in the United States, that are pretty horrible. It wouldn't take much to change their function from criminal depository to political dissident depositary. Don't believe it could never happen here.

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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. yes but that didn't happen till much latter...
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 09:17 PM by bpilgrim
hittler didn't start his programs of extermination till after his cities were getting carpet bombed.

i certainly hope we aren't on a simular path but the ominous signs are certainly there and we are only 2 1/2 years into this regimes rule.

peace
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. They weren't part of Poland until Germany invaded them I don't think?
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/timeline/camps.htm

<snip>Six death or extermination camps were constructed in Poland. These so-called death factories were Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Belzec , Sobibór, Lublin (also called Majdanek ), and Chelmno . The primary purpose of these camps was the methodical killing of millions of innocent people. The first, Chelmno, began operating in late 1941. The others began their operations in 1942.

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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. No they weren't.
The worst camps were built in Poland because the Poles were in no position to object, whereas in Germany there was still the image to keep that everything was swimmingly wonderful for Germans thanks to the thousand year reich. You didn't need the smell of cooking flesh to make your citizens wonder if something was wrong.
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Read about the rise of the Third Reich.
Then read about BFEE from the first Bush presidency until now. I think you will see some astonishing similarities even though many of the circumstances are quite different. The point is though, is have we lost all our freedom yet?
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