One - and only one - election day post RE: civility

(this is a little bit of a mild-mannered rant)

I want to say on thing before I turn my complete and total attention to the election. Recently there have been several poorly timed post about how alledgedy terrible and uncivil the DU community is. There have been the lectures on hating our opponents, the lectures on intolerance to nader supports, the lectures on everything else.

Now, I've talked about civility many times before. I believe that we shouldn't act towards our opponents they exact same way they act towards us. I believe we should work to promote an atmosphere of openness and responsible dialoge between different factions of the "left." And I believe that in general, we should all strive to practice more responsiblity and understanding when it comes to relating with each other and others. And those opinions made me some friends and some enemies...

...however...

Right now I have no patience for these kinds of lectures two days before election day, one day before, or today. It is not that I don't believe we shouldn't strive to act with civility and humanity all the time, its that I believe there is a time and a place for others to bring it up. If my son's best friend was just killed in a car accident, that would not be the time I choose to yell at him about his messy room. If my wife was diagnosed with cancer, I would not pick the moment when she is waiting for test results from her biopsy to chastize her for not being kind enough to my mother when she came to visit.

It's not that my wife shouldn't have been kinder or that my son shouldn't clean his room -- its that for me not to appreciate their context and understand that maybe now its not the approriate time to be lecturing them about these things, in the light of what they are facing is to be in the wrong myself.

I know I've made at least one (seemingly emotionally spastic) person angry at me, because I've had the audacity to say, "you know what I don't want to here all of these bloviating chastizments and lectures when were down the to wire in the most important election of my lifetme." But I fail to understand why. I'm not saying we shouldn't be civil, or decent, or work to be united. I'm not saying - as some have deceptively implied - that we should act be certian principles when convenient and then abandon them when it is not.

The father who chooses not to address the son's messy room while the son is in the middle of grieving over a friends death isn't somehow changing his opinion on messy rooms. A husband who chooses not to bring up his wife's attitude towards his mother while his wife is agonzing over the results of a cancer biospy isn't somehow saying that mistreating his mother is ok - he is only saying, now is not the time for this discussion.

If you disargee, fine. That's your right. But I don't believe now is the time for this discussion. Once Bush has given his concession speech, then we can start to do the serious soul searching we need to do to figure out how to heal the divisions even within our own community. But right now I will not - no, I literarlly cannot - have these kinds of conversations with anyone until this is over. I cannot handle them with all the other emotions I feel and nerves I have over the election. Now isn't the time to be having this kinds of chastizing condesceinding lecturing posts - now is the time to come together, and to give people who are at their wits end a fucking break.

Come November 3rd, and Bush's concession speech, I'll be ready to begin listening to discussion about the things we as a community need to do different. And frankly, I don't see anything in what I've said that is unreasonable. I apologize if this somehow "disappoints" or disillusions certain people. But I'll learn to deal with your dissatisfaction.

Now with that off my chest, I turn my attention 100% to this election.

Some of us here seem to want our hands firmly planted around our own throats. Let's save these discussions for another day and place our hands firmly (and metaphorically) around Bush's throat.

:)


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

I have to still watch my back for a few days more. :toast:

n/t

Very well articulated. Great analogies. Good job! Thanks.

Gyre

What do you want? DU has been the opposition complaint department
whilst not in power, and in a few hours, will be the underground idea
site for the party OF POWER. Those of us who spent long hours
on the ideological underground to get "to power" are soon to be
forgotten for an army of centrist democrats who will take over the
white house likely completely forgetting the plural voices of the
left fringe.

Today is our last moment of universal solidarity, as we are 100%
united in defeating bush and elevating Senator Kerry. After the
drunken party, that 100% coalition will dissolve in the giddy joy
of tonight's dreams, and on hearing *'s concession speech.

Then some will call for a return to clinton'ism, that DLC centrism
has worked before and why not make another go. Some will call for
the war on drugs to be ended after voting with Kerry. Some will call
for legislated protections for women's right to abortion, so that
no number of kooky supreme court justices may malign womens rights.
The left fringe has a laundry list of grievances, and we can pretend,
for a moment, that we are the same as the DLC centrists, voting
democratic and enjoying our victory.

I have a prayer for Mr. Kerry when he wins, "I thank all of you who
voted for us, and i will never forget that we stood as allies in
this fight for our constitution and our country." Keeping the left
fringe united is the challenge of the next decade, to have
libertarians and greens hanging out at democratic parties, smiling
and exchanging love notes.

I will make a few more posts after nov 2, but i plan to shut up
when kerry wins, as i am a voice of dissent, and the time for that
will be over... my job as an anti-bush propagandist will end as
a new generation of propagandists comes forward to unite the left
from within.

:kick:

(PS - Selwynn Goodspeed has voted!)

...and it will take time to determine which of them will need to be prosecuted for crimes against the state and humanity.

You're entitled to do as you wish.

Just one reminder....... If you chose to bash and trash a poster because you're "tense" and need some "outlet", yeah, you can do that. Most people here are crafty enough to know how to thoroughly bash in someone's cyber skull without breaking any specific rule.

The reminder is..... any healthy person who is abused at the hands of another because they "couldn't help themselves" will stay away from that person in the future. And that goes double for those of us who have lived with abuse -- in order to survive, we've had to learn to recognize and avoid people who feel free to be abusive.

So, just give some thought, somewhere in the recesses of your mind, to how chasing away people healthy enough to avoid abuse fits in with all the rhetoric of the last months about reaching out to others, getting people more involved, declaring that the Dem Party is the "Party of the Big Tent", etc etc etc. At some point, you're going to get back to wanting as many people as possible to work on the huge tasks ahead of us. Doesn't it seem just a teeny bit counterproductive to push people away who you will want later on?

You might also consider, with your example of a death and telling that person to "clean their room", that you simply aren't the only one here dealing with that "death". The ones you chose to bash are dealing with that same death. "Do unto others........"?

For once I have to say, I don't recognize your "Christian values".

What I have said to you is rational and reasonable, and not an attack at all....... simply an appeal to reason. However, I'm willing to bet that you are so wound up in your righteous indignation, rather than attuned to the pain of others, that you can't wait to lash out at me. So, have at it. Apparently the friendships of the past have no value any longer.

I enjoyed knowing you, and sorry that it had to end in this way. But, I'm not on this earth to be anyone's punching bag. Been there, done that.

Take care.

Kanary

I've challenged you to bring specific examples of my abuse, and you have not. I've acknowledged a definite willingness to apologize if I could be shown where I was out of line, and have not been shown anything but vague generalities like "bash" or "abuse" or other things.

I am frequently in the wrong, by virtue of being a human being. And when I am, and I can understand it, I have a deep-seeded desire to make it right. That, I believe is the essences of a true Christian faith - not perfect performance, not perfect behavior, but simply a desire to do one's best and to make right the things that don't reflect one's best.

However at the same time, I am also aware of people with unrealistic expectations. I am aware of people with emotional swings that latch on to the smallest of things and inflate them into colossal issues. I know people who rove around literally looking for someone to fail and seeking any microscopic thing they can latch onto in order to pounce on their next victim with condemnation. I am aware of people so blindly focused that they are completely oblivious to the reality of context. I am aware of people who you can never please.

And I am not worried about these people. I literally can't worry about these people, because they have impossible expectations and make impossible all or nothing judgments. They aren't looking for the best in others; they're looking for the worst so that they can feel better about themselves by judging and condemning everyone else. I can't worry about them, because there is nothing I could do they would keep them pleased all the time, and one moment of disagreement or one moment where I somehow "disappoint" them is enough for them to completely reject wholesale everything about me. Such people are beyond reason, beyond logic, beyond reality. I cannot do anything about that. All I can do is continue to do my best, and to make things right when I see that I've been wrong.

The simple fact is that there is a time and a context for certain issues. As I said before, the time to talk to my son about his messy room is not while he's sobbing over the death of his best friend. That analogy has nothing to do with "other people" who have experienced death. The same thing would be true of anyone. If you've experienced that pain of death, then it would be absolutely wrong of me to come chastise you about how you snapped at someone right when you were writhing in grief. That fact that maybe you might have hypothetically been out of line toward someone else in the middle of your grief says nothing about you other than your human - doing the best you can. However, my taking you aside and rebuking you for snapping at someone right while you were in the middle of agonizing loss says an awful LOT about me - and the kind of person I am. It says that I care more about myself and my judgments about everyone else than I do about determining what might most meet your needs at any given moment.

That's what things are like here. We are on election day of an election that many people feel is the most important election of our lifetimes. To some of us, literal lives and the future of this country (if not the world) are greatly affected by the outcome. We're exhausted, we're emotional spent, we're on our last leg, and most of us have been working our butts off for four years straight to lead up to this day. Many of us are sitting around with our stomachs in complete knots and our hearts in our throats awaiting the outcome.

I don't blame those who have told certain people to back off and give us a break and stow it until we can get through this crisis - just like I wouldn't blame someone who said those things to someone posting a "why is DU so racist" thread on September 11, 2001. Instead, I blame those without the common decency and compassion and basic mercy to hold that kind of stuff, take a big breath, and cut everyone some slack until this election is behind us.

I'm sorry you can't understand that. I'm sorry I've disappointed you. But there's nothing more I can do, and so I'll sleep fine tonight.
Sel

about the annthrax attacks on Daschle & Leahy. I was simply explaining to someone who hadn't heard about those attacks WHAT had happened - and you called me a coward and declared me unfit to ever hold public office. DOES THAT COUNT?

I alerted on your post and it was deleted as a personal attack.

It has been the most horrendously long four years I've ever known, and I'm sure EVERYONE else feels the same. Can't we all TRY to just hold the cannon fire on each other, and hope that hope is on the way?
I hope so!

You have me totally confused with someone else, either that your not being truthful.

I have never even been in a thread talking about Anthrax attacks. I've never said you or anyone else unfit to hold public office. You have got me confused with someone else. Why would I even do that? I can't imagine why I would possibly call you a coward or anything else for talking about anthrax attacks? That doesn't even make any sense. Why this from recently?

You had not problems with me up until two days ago when I said some things you didn't like, which I have tried to explain better here. NONE of those posts of mine have been deleted. If you can give me some example of where I wronged you your abused you from there, then I will apologize. I CHOOSE to believe that you are not deliberately making up an false example and hiding behind saying it was deleted. I choose to believe instead that you are mistaking me for someone else. All I can tell is I've never said anything like that in as long as I can remember.

when I said some things you didn't like..."
I have NO IDEA what you're talking about, Selwynn. To my knowledge, that didn't happen. I am not making this up either. I come from a family with 3 generations of war service to this nation, my eldest son served in the first Gulf War, and I have 2 more sons of draft age. So, please understand WHY I would consider that below the belt.

Your thread on religion in The Meeting Room brought back a few memories I'd prefer to forget, but I chose not to particpate in that thread BECAUSE I was upset - not at you, but because it brought back bad memories. I didn't take it personally.
Nope. I never had a problem with you before that ONE incident, and I have been called worse - far worse by other DUers, so I'm not bothered by it anymore. As for a "few days ago" - I have no idea what that even refers to, so I can't help you there.

IF I have 'mistaken" you for someone else, I apologize for my mistake.

Selwynn, I can't get search to work, but the incident I am referring to was several WEEKS ago.

I don't remember saying it, I don't remember even thinking anything like it at all, I can't even imagine a context in which I would have said something like that.... but if some day I was off my meds (not literally, I'm not on meds) and said something insane like that, I profoundly apologize.

n.t

Distancing people by emotionally abusing them is dishonest.

There's clearly a need here on DU to distance those one doesn't understand, or agree with. A mature adult with accept the difference, and if they can't abide that difference, can own that for themselves, and make that distance in a non-judgmental way.

Trashing another person in order to create distance is not only juvenile, it's emotionally dysfunctional. And certainly doesn't qualify as "non-violent". "I" messages and owning your own stuff for yourself are the ways to more peace, and less violence. I would think that most people would know that by now, but either they don't, or they're having too much fun getting their rocks off. Causing pain, and then laughing at the injured one that they are "too sensitive" is so close to RW tactics as to be rather nauseating.

As for example..... referring to me as "emotionally spastic" certainly qualifies. I have *never* referred to you in such terms, and I'm sure you were quite aware of what you were doing. I'm sure it will gain you admiration among those who delight in causing pain, but at some point, you will have your own Christian conscience to wrestle with.

For the most part, you were demanding proof of me that I really suspect you knew was a red herring. I, and many others, were talking about abuse from others here, and you were NOT, at that time, included in that roster. But doing an O'Reilly impression and telling us to "shut up" comes very close. Y'know, many of us here have been abused wives, and have already been through that order to not speak of the abuse we suffered, and to consider our own selves as having "deserved" it somehow. That, itself is abuse, and most of us have become healthy enough to be determined not to be used again in that way.

When people are being hurt, they have every right, and some would call it a duty, to speak up about it. That is true ratehr the hurt comes from racism, homophobia, sexism, or just mean abuse. If it was bothering you so much to see people speaking up, then I can't understand why you opened the thread, or continued reading. Telling us to shut up when you didn't have to be reading itin the first place is truly a mystery.

So, dismiss me all you want. Clearly there is no way to brook the gulf any more. I know that anything I say to you will not be heard When there is no longer a chance of communication because one side has put up a sound barrier is a relationship-breaker. I'm sure that doesn't hold any concern for you now. I just want you to remember this distancing when you are later wanting more people involved in working for the party.

I bid you adieu.

Kanary

It is as simple as that. You are the one who made that comment personal. I did say shut up, in this context: in response to a post about how ashamed we should be for not being kinder to Nader here, I responded with this basic argument, that now is not the time. The said that we are all stressed, tired and emotionally spent, and once this crisis passes, on November 3rd, we can talk more about how to make the community better, but until then shut up.

I don't regret that. I'm sorry if you honestly consider that deserving of the phrases "bashing" or "trashing" or "abuse." But I don't think that's reasonable.

If the worst thing you can say about me is that I said "shut up" then I'm not feeling real worried about that. I've said other things too, like "now is not the fucking time" and things like that, and unless your saying that simply swearing is abuse, then I don't feel too bad about that either.

I think the biggest problem that has created the rift between us is that I don't share your quest to be a martyr. I do believe we need to come together as a community and repair rifts, and there's lots of work to do there - after the election. But I also understand the reality of context, and I understand that sometimes certain issues take priority over others. There is a fine line between not deliberately being hateful and mean-spirited and not walking on eggs shells afraid that any word which contains a hint of emotion or any statement that isn't perfectly worded and nuanced will cause a person such as yourself to be angry.


Distancing people by emotionally abusing them is dishonest.

There's clearly a need here on DU to distance those one doesn't understand, or agree with. A mature adult with accept the difference, and if they can't abide that difference, can own that for themselves, and make that distance in a non-judgmental way.


There is a difference between "distancing" and simply accepting the things you can't control. We have a fundamental disagreement, here. I can't and won't change your mind, and I can't (and won't) worry about your dissatisfaction with me as a person.


When people are being hurt, they have every right, and some would call it a duty, to speak up about it. That is true whether the hurt comes from racism, homophobia, sexism, or just mean abuse. If it was bothering you so much to see people speaking up, then I can't understand why you opened the thread, or continued reading. Telling us to shut up when you didn't have to be reading it in the first place is truly a mystery.


No, not in any context. People are not "in the right" to corner a grieving husband and start criticizing and chastising him for being rude to a receptionist. It was wrong that he was rude, but a) probably understandable given the context and b) now in the middle of this grief is not the time to talk about it. It's not complicated, you're just not interested in accepting reality. Reality is, there *IS* an appropriate time and place for criticism, and there are times when certain criticisms or not responsible, not compassionate, not sensitive and not indicative of the very kind of community you so desperately desire - why? Because the time is not right, just like bringing up with the widow the fact that Joe still owes you 50 bucks wouldn't be appropriate at Joe's funeral.

damn good job here at DU. I've left other boards that were unbearable. This place is paradise compared to most boards on the net. Sometimes people just need to get their priorites straightened out.

democracy, and your country. la la la:-)"
:-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)

Sorry. Not gonna happen.

Never appease a nazi.

The life you save may be your own.

You must have "assumed" that's what my post would say, if you were to take the time to read it.

But sadly, you assumed very wrong, and it's making me giggle a little bit :)

No worries - it was long, and its election day - I might not have read it either!