Howard Dean was right about the South

He may have been wrong to casually ignore the potency of the confederate flag as a symbol, but he was right about the hardcore need of the Democratic Party not to give the South up for lost because we can't out-goober the Republicans any more. The Democrats--or some progressive force--is going to have to go deep into Rebel territory and evangelize.

Personally, I think Dean would have lost them even more heavily.

Dean made the point that it's going to take a long time to get back what our party has lost, but we have to start now.

THAT'S PRETTY FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE. HE LOST ALL OF THE SOUTH.

The DNC Koolaid is here. They were just as much responsible for distorting what Dean said from day one as the repukes did. I heard the man speak and I heard the shit Edwards said he said. BULLSHIT.

But alas Kerry is infallible, not his fault. :eyes:

if you want to fight, go to the other forum --

It was not Kerry's fault, they stole it and yes, we lost it. It appears more of them than us. We are just as responsible as he is.

Go cuss at someone else!

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and eat our own! You live in the South, profess to be a member of the democratic party and blame the rest of the country for the rest of the southerners not following your example!

You have your nerve -- we in the South have a greater responsibility than Kerry and the others on DU - what offices have you held, what elections have you ran or tried to win? How are you leading your party in your state and proving that the democratic party is better than the repukes?

Take responsibility and quite whining about being ignored@!

down with dean. he should be given the reigns, and we see what an outsider can do.

Dean is our Barry Goldberg...the future will return.

;)

NT

but AMEN!

But the idea is valid.

I would have preferred to lose with Dean than Kerry. At least our message would have been heard. I feel like Kerry did nothing to advance our cause while Dean pushed the pendulum a tiny bit back our way even though he only ran in the primary.

We have a very powerful message if we can just get a leader to speak it clearly.

NT

Become more republican? Embrace homophobia, xenophobia, religious fundamentalism, and facism? No, I think the democratic party must either write off the south or change it, and I don't see the latter happening for several more generations. Writing off the south will allow the dems to focus on core issues that don't play well in the south, and to hell with them. Trying to be everything to everyone is destroying the democratic party.

on edit: I say this as a former Georgian born and raised in the south. Forget them. No liberal party will consistently win the southern states in our lifetimes.

He never stepped one foot down here...never ran ads here, never visited bases here or met with families of dead soldiers.

Dean didn't say to become blah blah blah like you said. He said listen to them, talk to them, one on one. Didn't happen.

Thanks for the stereotypes.

Kerry and Edwards did write off the South. Even back in the primaries.

Loser. Sorry, I liked him for a brief while, but I am pissed at how they continue to ignore the south then bitch they lost it and try to justify it by saying oh, they're all inbred, religious, assholes.

Funny how ignorant so many liberals are.

It was a mistake to think that it alone would have worked.

of having a whisper of a chance in. They really telegraphed how useless they thought a serious run in the South would be.

Get the grassroots people all riled up. Man, just drive down freaking I-10, you can hit tons of big cities. It's actually the ideal way to go.

...write off the south. I don't think there's any way to woo the south without becoming republicans.

Why? Democrats really have to analyze this question. I disagree with the notion that Dems can't win without the south. Kerry almost did. But it would make our life a LOT easier if we could grow a progressive Democratic movement down there.

enough of this 'we cant win the south, so why try' BULLSHIT

resonate in the South.

Let's face it. SOMEONE has to tell them that they are voting against their own econimic self-interest again and again and again. Might be helpful to point out, as Dean did, that the Republicans use these culture wedge issues to DIVIDE us so that THEY (the fat cats) can go on their merry way, ignoring the rest of us and doing us harm in between that November every 4 years.

I think Dean would do well in the South.

the "economic self-interest" argument won't work unless we also address the underlying cultural dynamics as well.

including DU forgot that we have dems in the South and didn't even try to cultivate or encourage our votes.

But guess what, we are just as responsible as the rest of the party, we live here and are the example of what dems are! We share his responsibility!

By the way, JFK could not campaign at a base, it is against the law - the weed that would be king got away with it because he is the prez, the idiot n chief!

grassroots organizing and creating a progressive culture. Not just down South, but everywhere. It's not about moving to the center, it's about moving the center to the left. Thr right-wing realized this over 40 years ago and started organizing to move the political center to the right-- that's why they're in power now.

We need to do the same thing with the same long-term vision, strategy and concrete goals. And we have to accept we are going to suffer some losses in the meantime. We can't keep blowing our organizational load every four years or else we'll lose momentum, numbers and organization slowly but surely each time until there's nothing left. It's time to brace for the long war.

The democratic party needs to move WAY back to the left and then do the hard work to bring the country there with them, not the other way around, i.e. follow the center-right wherever it leads. That's a strategy that simply does not work (and I think the Clinton example was a bit of an anomaly, too).

Again and again and again polls show that Americans favor Dem positions on issues. Americans are FOR the environment; FOR helping the disadvantaged and vulnerable; FOR balanced budgets and spending on vital infrastructure, etc.; FOR allowing women the right over their own bodies; FOR allowing gays to have the same rights as others have (tho not "marriage"); etc.

This IS a liberal country, just as Michael Moore has said.

The ONLY thing the Repugs have is lies -- they have to lie about who they are and what they're up to, they have to lie about us, they have to lie about their legislation and what it purports to do, they have to lie about EVERYTHING. They have to suppress our votes or they can't win.

This IS a liberal country, and the demographics increasingly tilt in our favor as well.

Anytime we allow any of OUR politicians and elected so-called "leaders" to support ANY of their lies, even tacitly, instead of working to expose them as the lies they are, we dig the hole we are in a little deeper.

IMO, that means we have to start stomping on our own elected "leaders'" heads, jumping up and down on top of their very heads until they fucking GET IT about so many things, including that George Bush is a LIAR and never says anything truthful, that he is an immoral and a fascist, that this war is wrong and immoral and ALWAYS was, and that their vote for the war validated the equally immoral "pre-emptive" doctrine, on and on and on.

And make them disband the DLC.

Make your own list -- it's a long one.

That's what we need to do. It ain't going to be pretty, rewarding, or romantic but that's what it's going to entail.

Dems need to do what the repukes do, infiltrate all of the local and statewide organizations, the Chambers of Commerce, the Rotary Club, the Kiawanas, the Knights of Columbus, et cetera and we need to regain our strength and respect as community leaders and state leaders in all organizations. Do you realize that they have conventions and seminars in these organizations and they just reguritate the repuke messages (tort reform, better to fight them over there than at home, pro-small business, et cetera).

Dems/progressives/liberals need to work within our communities, need to get the points across locally, then the nation will be easier!

First, we must look for why we lost them.

Then, our party has to go back to the progressive ideals we once had, and acknowledge the needs of the working people in this country, for a start.

...don't want to go back there.

where Southerners of all demographics will want to go too.

...Party might as well "write off" any hopes of winning the WH. Your post is just fucking stupid. Jeesuz, haven't we learned anything in the last twenty-four hours?

affects voted for bush. there were a lot of blacks that voted for bush, a lot. they were all over cspan this morning calling bush a man of god. there are a lot of gay's that voted for bush, in and out of the closet.

the democratic party needs to dump some baggage, white women vote for bush, they are not concerned with abortion rights, they are not concerned with affirmative action, so why are we caring that baggage. there are a lot of blacks that did not vote, and there were a lot of blacks that voted for bush. they are not concerned with affirmative action, so why carry that baggage. we need to cut programs, and and spending in congress, we need to give the people exactly what they want. and then blame it all on the repuqs.

dems can do this very easy, just don't put up a big fight, just enough that in the mid-term elections they can say they tried. I truly believe that laziness is part of the problem. our supporters are fat and happy, I've heard it said more then once by people who will not vote, that they will never get rid of abortion.

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And if I don't get it, I'm alerting on you.

I just rolled out of bed after being up all night. The was a trend in the early morning hours of topic after topic bashing the South, and I thought I remembered seeing your name. It surprises me, because I recognize you and I don't associate you with the sentiments I hear in this thread or in the others.

I posted too quickly, based on emotion and I shouldn't have. I apologize.

The tone here today is so unfamiliar; it's bit of a meltdown. I should not have contributed. My bad.

I'm sorry I alerted on you, now. :cry:

(I hear you about the disorientation. I'm there!)

And thanks for coming back to let me know you don't think I'm a complete jerk. You have no idea how much I appreciate that. Today of all days, I really don't feel like fighting with anyone, least of all here.

:hug:

You're real wrong. Just so you know.

:hi:

:hi:

;)

the southern crackers got others to feel superior to we will not win the south-no way.

I lived there for a long time and everyday I was glad but embarrassed to be white.

180

I don't understand why it's okay for Kerry to go out west and talk about the environment to ranchers, yet he can't possibly go to the south, present his seemingly honest religious views for people to see for themselves and explain the Democrat's moral leadership by helping the sick, poor, etc. etc.

but the DLC handwringers were too upset he had passion

good thing Kerry was a good closer

Yeah, but it's not his fault he couldn't kick the DumbAss all over the map...he had such a smart, well-spoken, master debater opponent.

At least he didn't give up like Gore. Oh, wait...

"every vote will be counted" Uh, no, wait.

He worked his ass off for candidates for state and local offices down here.

Reagrding the Confederate battle flag:
What y'all don't really understand is that the appeal of the flag isn't based on a desire to preserve the Old South and segregation. It is appealing as a symbol of rebellion. Much about the South politically can be explained by the many years of being looked down upon and the desire to lash out against that.

Much about the South politically can be explained by the many years of being looked down upon and the desire to lash out against that.

That's why alleged progressives who heap scorn on southerners, rural people, religious people, etc. are doing real damage.

They sit in their solid blue cities and make outrageous allegations about the entire region, then wonder why some leave the party and why they can't get the non-fundies to join them. Hell, in my area they were begging for Kerry to come down and talk to people, but no, they sent Edwards only to a closed door $1000/plate dinner.

And do they even have a clue how many black people still live in the South?

why blanket condemnations of southerners are offensive to the southern liberals who hang out here. Do they honestly think that Jesse Helms reads DU and will see their oh-so-elegant denunciations?

when he brought up the Confederate flag, but he hit the nail squarely on the head. The reason people cling to the flag is the same reason they voted for Bush -- it is a "fuck you" to Northern elites, Hollywood, and everyone who looks down on the South.

... gun rights either. I know more assholes that are single issue voters in any election based on the candidates NRA rating. Hell folks, gun rights benefits us too you know.

reaching out to the base works for repugs. Reaching out to the repug base does NOT work for Dems. Not in 2002, not now. When will we wake up to this fact? Never.

Why don't people talk about the Southern left? Are there no leftists in the South? No liberals?

It's not that they are not there. I think everyone is a progressive at heart. We just need to be a party that is not a bunch of wishy washy sellouts.

I'm so tired of the whole nation having to pander to a group of states that is only in the Republican corner because of racism and bigotry.

When the Democrats stood up for Civil Rights legislation, the racist "Dixiecrats" left the party. The Republicans welcomed them with open arms and have won the South consistently ever since.

No one tilts their whole campaign just to appeal the Northeast or the Southwest. Why should the South be a special case??

Fuck those people.

And--if the Constitution is amended--might give us their Nazi Governor as President.

who will begin the process of normalizing the South's relationship with the rest of the country. It's not to mould the Democratic Party into the South's image, but to remould the South in the nation's image--at least to the extent that it is no longer an isolated monolith.

The South started to switch to Republican before Civil Rights became an issue. Eisenhower was a proponent of Civil Rights legislation and he won 5 states of the Confederacy in 1956. http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/U.S.-presidential-election,-1956

My Southern (La.) Republican parents wanted to vote for Dean (based on his policies as Governor) before the media crucified him.

:toast:

Welcome to DU.

Especially at this time when I'm sure everyone is critical of newbies with low post-counts.

:hi:

Buy the time Texas had primaries he had quit, but some of still wrote him in. I don't know if you consider TX part of the south.

Back at the end of the 19th century, the Progressive movement was gaining strength in the South. Sharecroppers & millworkers were beginning to unite against the owners & bosses. In some cases, black & white workers were getting together--plus brown workers here in Texas.

Racism surely existed here but it was not the law. That had been swept away in the War. In the 1890's, Jim Crow laws were enacted to strictly segregate the races. At least part of the reason was to divide the workers & to make the white ones think they had more in common with the owners. The owners were often the same traitors who'd started the War that killed so many Southerners who never owned a slave.

My own neighborhood may not be typical of the South, but it is not unique. Sheila Jackson Lee is my rep & she ran unopposed; no Republicans ran against my state rep & senator. But, throughout the South, people care about jobs, education & medical care. There's a Southern tradition of military service; but why die in an unjust war? These basic Democratic causes must be preached down here. And it would be nice if the national party looked upon us as more than a source of funds.

I've lived in Alabama all my life and can remember when Republicans never had a chance. This has not been that long ago but man how times have changed. I don't believe you can just write off any section of the USA and say we don't need them.
Like I said many long months ago,if you can't make a dent in the Bible Belt there is no way you can become President. Not one state carried in the WHOLE SOUTH for Kerry. Without taking some of the south you're just pissing in the wind.

What we need to do is start a Southern Conference - get progressive white folks to join the NAACP and get more black folks into Barry Lynn's outfit. Get blacks, latinos and whites to the table along with secular follks and open minded Christians..

them?

It's a lot more serious than what Dean suggested. Democrats just support things these fucking hicks don't understand.

Don't get all "stop hating on the south" with me, I live in PA, the Alabama section and I know what it's like to live with these fuckers.

a lot of rednecks that live north,east and west. It's not where you live as much as what's in your heart.

which is a Kerry Northern state and live next to rednecks. They are everywhere but are HQed in the god damned south.

...talking about the south. It wasn't fair at all.

ok, so i deleted the initial ant-south rant. trust me, it was nasty. i really do hate this place. i've seen most of the country now, enough to know the difference. thing about the south is, most of them were born here, and most of them never make it further than two hours from where they were born. they don't know that things can be different. and by god, you have no chance in hell of convincing most of them otherwise.

one small bit of good news, baton rouge elected its first black mayor, kip holden. he got beat bad last time around, but this time some outside money came in, and i'd bet the big GOTV effort at southern university really helped. one small bit of good news, in a state that elected fucking vitter, a gay-bashing piece of shit, to the US senate. the black community came together in this city, and elected a mayor that actually represents them. it was close, and the whites are gonna be fit to be tied. makes my heart glad, even in the midst of all this shit.

But a nice atomic wedgie wouldn't hurt.

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??

namely, Iraq.

So would Dennis Kucinich.