We need to move away from being Anti-Bush

and toward more positive efforts

Frankly, this election is a catharsis for me because I believe that we lost it straight up, and we can finally realize that we need to change our approach

Added:
I do not mean that we should be pro-bush, or even change party positions. I mean that we should seek to define the party in positive terms rather than strictly as anti-bush

Also, we did not necessarily lose because more people voted for Bush, but we lost because we could not adequately expose any cheating that occurred.

Frankly, I agree with him.
I will stop being anti-Bush the day he's carried out of the White House in shackles.

Can someone tell this old goat just what Bush's "plan" is for social security? Am I to lose my little check I worked for all my life? I really don't know what his "plan" is -- does he? Do you? Simple explanation will do.

the same way he wants everything under the sun to be micromanged, macromanaged and plundered by private corporations (BIG business. The way he's going, OUR government will be OWNED by Corporate Interests, uber alles...

but I feel like the defining element of Democratic efforts recently, if you had to pick one, would be the quality of not being Bush. This is never going to be successful in the long term

In other words, we maybe should quell our tendency to shout our opposition and instead clearly espouse our liberal beliefs? That I agree with. I have already started. On the outside, I have professed to be okay with the decision. I have pretended that it is okay and that I will reserve judgement and future predictions until they actually come to pass. When told that HE will govern more from the middle now, I have simply said, "I hope you're right" like I really believe everything will be okay.

Is that what you are saying?

I don't know about pretending to believe that everything will be okay, but an opposition with more explicit alternative approaches rather than a simple Bush Sucks approach -- focus on saying what you believe, rather than only saying that Bush is wrong, for sure

Its easy to be Anti-Bush. Its harder to be Anti-republican. Often times they are our friends, neighbors, family etc.
We need to find a way to positively promote a sane agenda. Right now I don't know how, maybe I'll have some ideas later.

To not bash him and his destructive, evil policies only enforces the Freepish claims that we are bleeding-heart wimps and PUSHOVERS. I we don't condemn the man & his thug cabal, the world will think the majority of Americans agree to their crimes.

Either way you slice it, I would rather shout out the truth at every single opportunity that arises.

I will NOT shut up and make-believe that I'm a nice little well-behaved girl! I will be a RUTHLESS truth teller, whether people like my honesty or not.

other than their hate for Clinton? They used that hate to cultivate and capture the family values, moral "Christian", base that has given them their power.

I hate facism, therefore, I hate *! I hate liars and moral frauds, therefore, I hate *!

The democratic party tries to find positive, sane agendas. The repukes know that politics, like religion, are often not sane and are very personal. We have forgotten the "personal" edge that is necessary to promote our agenda - therefore, our sincerity and passion are questioned and we are seen as the "elite".

the idiot and his administration at every possible oppertunity. Do you realize how much damage this moron can do now that he doesn't have to think about re-election?

anti-bush is more important then ever.

Never surrender. Never give an inch. The Democratic leadership has done that, and what did it get them?

AWOL? Worthless.

Moron? Worthless.

Calling him a "liar"? Worthless.

Over the next couple of years, war and jobs will be the issues. That's where we need to work.

...and I'd disagree that he has no conscience. He's just looking at things from a really different viewpoint.

He's dangerous, but I think he really believes in what he's doing.

...perhaps that makes him even MORE dangerous.

There's a basic fundamental corruption of his soul. He has no moral fiber, nothing. That is not simply a "viewpoint". Hitler didn't simply have a different viewpoint--he was evil to the core. I believe that Bush is, too.

And so its just as good as argument as any, because the pro-*ies don't care about logical argument anyway. Until their own kids die in Iraq, they won't listen. Until their own Hummers are repossessed, they won't listen.

I think that he honestly believes that he's doing the right thing, "God's work" if you will, by fighting the "evil" that exists in the world. I don't see it as a lack of moral character.

Unfortunately, a little over half the people in this country agree with him.

Regardless, we've MADE that argument and it didn't work. I really think we'd do better by attacking the policies and not the man.

But we can't let up on the dangerous mean-spirited right of this country. All out political warfare is the only way we can recapture the zeitgeist of this country.

We can be anti-Bush but also we need to be more than that.

DICtator for life!

Although I am anti-bush, I'm no more anti-bush than I am anti-rightwing anything.

I am pro-liberal. Pro-left. Pro-REAL moral values. Pro-gressive. :)

to keep ALL these issues on the table and NOT fade into the background. HE created this division - it's HIS problem - Not mine.

That's the whole point - HE made us feel the way we do today, and WE ought to be his biggest problem that will never slither away quietly.

will be running for preznit!

He's the reason why we are re-energized. He really is a "UNITER".

and while anger is good for short-term energy, we need to be FOR something to sustain any kind of movement

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and ALL I am saying is that being Anti-Bush cannot be the defining characteristic of the Democratic party -- there is nothing to be sustained in that

And as far as losing the election, I agree that it is hard to believe the vote totals given the black boxes. That said, it is also impossible to adequately prove that the black boxes were anything but accurate. We need to get rid of them, yes, but more importantly we need to work so that fewer Americans can be motivated to vote by fear and hate.

Organize nationally -- run locally

Organize around issues -- then around people who champion them

Media school our candidates and spokespeople. "Media schooling" is coaching and instruction on how to debate, how to be interviewed, how to get your points in, what to do in a media ambush, crisis management, etc.

The problem is more than Bush. Bush could step down tomorrow and most of these problems would be as bad or worse (worse if a better liar/spokesperson takes his place). Just imagine how bad it would be now if they had someone like Reagan again who was much funnier off the cuff and had more skills than Bush.

They can assassinate character but not issues.

Our priority must be to paralyze the bushslugs. We must stop every initiative they propose. We must emblazon every signpost with the idea that they are illegitimate and that everything they say is a lie. We have to get down and dirty and vicious in our attacks. No quarter. No mercy.

I don't argue that we need to fight against them, but we need to justify our actions in terms of positive goals

.

We need to focus on issues, not the person, otherwise our efforts won't help prevent Candidate X from getting into office and continuing Bush's policies.

What's the point in trying to demonize a man who can't run for reelection anyway. It's the policies that will still be around. That's what we need to attack.

press for our issues. We need immediate, focused action to illegitimatize the cabal.

speak for your own life. This man is killinf our nation. He's killing the environment, he's killing ouir economy, he's killing folks in need of healthcare, through his negligence and indifference.

I will never capitulate to the agenda of the republicans. They have never represented my concerns or needs. They never will. They can rot in hell, along with anyone who wants to lay down and let them walk all over them.

I said define the party and your actions in a positive way, for crying out loud

And I believe we lost because this SHOULD HAVE BEEN A LANDSLIDE. The fact that it was remotely close enough to steal means there is a fundamental problem with democratic party

I refuse to accept that I should modify my efforts just because a majority of idiots bought Bush's lies. I'm sticking with the fundamental values and the positive direction that our party has always represented.

Screw that notion that somehow we were wrong because we lost by 2% in one state. What you are sugesting is a retreat from our agenda which I refuse to repudiate just days after our excellent campaign.

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won.php

Kerry Won
Greg Palast
November 04, 2004


Bush won Ohio by 136,483 votes. Typically in the United States,
about 3 percent of votes cast are voided—known as "spoilage" in
election jargon—because the ballots cast are inconclusive. Palast's
investigation suggests that if Ohio's discarded ballots were
counted, Kerry would have won the state. Today the Cleveland Plain
Dealer reports there are a total of 247,672 votes not counted in
Ohio, if you add the 92,672 discarded votes plus the 155,000
provisional ballots.



While I realize that there is nothing we can do about it since Kerry
rolled over for them it does tell us that bush doesn't have any
where near a mandate. I wanted to post this so that you didn't
think I was some raving lunatic looking for conspiracies. (I do
believe that they padded the votes in the red states, especially
those that used computers, so Kerry couldn't get the popular vote as
Gore had. Why the red states - because they knew no one would ask
for a recount in those states)

but we KNEW THIS WAS COMING, and still it happened -- and therefore we lost.

WE worked hard and got the votes, the DNC didn't carry through with there responsibility - again.

But I'M not. I don't feel anything but disgust and hate toward that wanna be dictator. He came in with the GOD theme and managed to fool all these so called "christians" into thinking he is better than JC himself. I think it's shameful and a disgrace the way he and his fellow repuke politicians use God for political gain.This idiot has out done Jim Jones. He only had over 900 drink the kool-aid,while JC bu$h has MILLIONS. I am amazed so many people in this country are this ignorant,but they are. It's downright scary. :scared:

I'm saying that defining the party as anti-bush is inadequate

His agenda has NOTHING in it for us. It's for all the rightwingnuts. Don't you get tired of us being left out all the time? This insane fraud is AGAINST everything that helps the poor and middle class. The first thing on his agenda is to attack Social Security as we know it. Who does he think he is? How can this moron get by with so much? When are the people in this country going to stand up and say ENOUGH,already? Geesus....

I agree that we must go for a new approach, but I still think we need to keep hammering on Bush. I think people voted for Bush on social issues. It sure wasn't the war or the economy. He's a failure on both counts. We need to show how our liberal values are better for the country. That means contrasting them against the Bush administration.

home the points enough in order to appeal to the 'swing' votes...

BUSH was the issue and will be in 2008 when JEBtm is the nominee.

And, yes jeb will run that has been the plan all along.

but issues. What if Jeb doesn't run... what if it is Ghouliani? what if it is Frist? We need to make sure our short-term goals help achieve our long-term goals.

Kerry/Edwards DID appeal to & convince swing voters, even convinced long-time Republicans to vote against Bush.

The friggin' election was HIJACKED in the most strategic places and even CNN skewed the exit polls to make things look legitimate!

Why aren't you getting the same news that I've been reading? Do you depend on TV's talking heads and the tabloid press? If so, you are not very well-informed, I'm sorry to say...

Not so much. It should make you weep for humanity and fear for democracy, but hey... whatever gets you through the day.

And I call bullshit on being "anti-Bush". We have four more years before there is another election (well, we hope they'll be one...). It is our civic and moral duty to speak out and fight back when your country is being ruined by fascists with a frightening agenda.

In case you weren't paying attention, there were PLENTY of us who supported John Kerry, his ideas and positions in a positive way. Did we still speak out against Bush? Absolutely. Did we underscore Kerry's positive and progressive ideas when voicing our support of him? Absolutely.

You can't change why people vote they way they vote. Some vote against someone more than they vote for someone and that's always been the case. Don't think for a moment that a lot of people voted against Gore because of Clinton's cock. It's just the way it is and the nature of people. But don't think for a moment that we didn't have a message of hope, because we did. Some people chose not to listen to it, but that isn't completely our fault. Bush ran on fear and spreading lies about Kerry. Kerry ran on hope and exposing the truth about Bush.

Who had the better day? Thought so.

There will be plenty of time in the upcoming weeks and months for us to figure out how we can reach more people with our message. But the bottom line is that unless we change our stance to that of hate, fear, racism, bigotry and fascism we're not going to win over Bush supporters. Our message is trumped by the personal interests of the rich and the desire of of a theocratic rule by the fundies. They wanted four more years of Bush and now we've got it. When the country turns to shit, maybe some will wake up. That's our only hope short-term. Long-term depends on our children... sadly, they average more kids than us.

One thing I agree with the fundies on - the Rapture can't come fast enough. Once they're all gone, maybe then we can have some normalcy.

and I'll say "amen" to that!

I feel better today about organizing for the future than I did after the 2000 election, when I was very bitter for a long time -- that is what I mean by catharsis

Yeah, our only hope for the future is that, as you say, when the country turns to shit, maybe some will wake up. Sadly, I feel that will be far too late. Bush's agenda will bring the collapse of our economy, our environment, our nation as we know it. And I'd like to say that I am a "fundie" (now lapsed) who does NOT believe in the Rapture. I used to, but I've changed my mind, and I now believe that all of us, Rapturous fundies included, will be around to suffer what these fools have done. I'll be interested to see their reaction when they suddenly realize the truth as it hits them squarely in the face. Meantime, I'm contemplating my own "escape plan", but it doesn't include being "snatched up" with my clothes and jewels left behind. Sorry about your wish for normalcy. Guess it's up to us to make it happen. Let's do it!

Tired Old Cynic

I live in the south - buckle of the Bible belt. These folks don't think critically & Bush is their boy. By and large, with the exception of the well off who are able to send their kids to college -many of these people are vocationally educated at best. Most have never been out of their state of residence and really don't give a crap about the rest of the world. The democrats need to get a backbone and keep going for the throat. That way, when things turn to absolute shit in the next 4 years, maybe the scales will fall from their eyes and they will see what a disaster Bush is. For example, there is no reasoning with these folks on the reproductive rights issue until their daughter becomes the victim of a back alley abortion. Interestingly, many Repubicans seem to have an empathy deficit until they themselves are on the receiving end. I can't deal with that lack of imagination b/c that's what the root of it is. Nor am I willing to compromise on a woman's right to choose or any of the other issues that Democrats have championed. What I'm saying is that you can't understand these people unless you also come to believe in the tooth fairy.

opposition to Bush does not necessarily mean defining the Democratic party as anti-bush

I think most the people here are intelligent enough to look at the policy vs. the politician. It's just that nothing he does is ever a compromise to even the moderates, much less to the progressive elements in this country. Just because he's suckered half the people half the time... well, you get it. Bush is, by policy, anti-progressive, anti-liberal. Even his father and Reagan were at times conceding and diplomatic. And certainly less dogmatic. I will not change my ideals and beliefs just to accommodate his bull-head non-compromising policies.

I said (or meant to say) to change our approach to electoral politics

I read your add post, and it makes more sense...

I do agree... people don't like having their leader ridiculed or pointed as a failure. After all, he DOES represent them (at least on paper)

We can mentally multi-task. We can work towards positive movement, which we will, but we can also despise **, and I do.

Because the only thing really uniting the supporters was opposition to Bush, there was no set of common principles for the supporters to organize around.

Sure, the Busheviks bashed Kerry a lot, but they spent even more time promoting a deceptive, distorted vision. The Bush supporters were for Bush as much as they were against Kerry, and they would have been equally against anyone who ran against their guy.

On our side, I doubt that we would have been so motivated if our opponent had been a less obviously evil Republican, like Oregon's Gordon Smith or New York's Rudy Giuliani. We had a disparate group of volunteers who hate Bush, and that's enough to motivate the people in the know, but it does nothing to convince the ignorant and apathetic that the Dem would be better.

Next time we need a candidate who can inspire loyalty on his own, outside of reference to any opponent. We need someone who will enable us to say not just, "I think the Repubican is bad," but "I think my guy is wonderful and exciting, and if you come and hear him speak, you'll think so, too."

BBV or no BBV, we need someone who can generate an uncheatable margin of victory.