BBV: Ralph Nader has agreed to ask for a

Recount in New Hampshire. This is good news! There is apparent fraud in that state and this could move to Ohio and Florida as well. Ralph knows he lost those states...but a hand recount in Ohio and perhaps Florida could help us achieve a win we so desperatly need. Lets help drag John Kerry kicking and screaming into the White House.

Today was a very good day...lets not let the momentum we gathered today go to waste.

Andy

THAT'S HILLARIOUS!

If he fails I will go back to hating his guts.

:D :D :D

but I admire your honesty...made me lol

Surprising turn of events!

So maybe THIS was why he took GOP $$$ to get on the ballot?? Hmmmm...

NGU.

More power to him!

amazing stuff today! you're amazing!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:


You GO Ralph!!!!!!!!!!!!

Democracy here we come!!!!!!!!

:dem:

All incompletes. Guess we really ARE burning up his fax machine! God bless Bev Harris, too -- I'm sending her $$.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=24517&mesg_id=25109


go for it!

dp

It took me awhile to get through.

I kept hitting redial an finally got a connection to the fax machine

Keep trying.

I got to rethink this love hate relationship with Ralphie a bit more! LOL

:yourock: :toast:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=24517&mesg_id=25109

dp

I sent my fax but was not sure if we had made the deadline. This is good to hear.

how does this help us?

I think if he gets enough signatures to look into NH, he'll go forward in other states (fingers crossed).

that the asshat coalition SKIMMED VOTES to pump up their PV 'mandate'

duh.

This is one of the places where the numbers didn't add up. And it took them almost forever to actually project a win for Kerry here. If we investigate this one and find fraud, we will have a couple legs to stand on for looking at OH, FL, and NM (imo).

I read on another thread on DU, that it cost too much? (Something like 30-40k).

Please update us, so we don't have any false hopes.

How could it move there?

...they have to look at the other states.

Florida?

but this sudden Ralph Love disturbs the shit out of me.

Since when did DU wave in the wind so much? <shudder>

back to his old self.

to damned early...we have to do this for him...If we don't we get 4 more years.

Heard it on rhandi (rerun), just seconds ago, but did not get the actual number.

fax: 202 265 0092

Here is what Randi Rhodes asks you to write on the fax:

"Ralph Challenge the election results New Hampshire now.
Black box voting activist "

and have to admit we were expecting huge victory for Kerry, The internal state polls (one done by Franklin Pierce College) had him with as much as an 11% lead over Bush a few days before the ellection.... The final results even though they went for Kerry were by such a slim margin a number of us were stunned... I have not heard till today specifics on a recount and am wondering if any of you have more detailed info on where/what/when/who..

It's graphs of several states, some with paper and some with electronic voting, showing exit polls vs, "actual results" --

:hi:

:bounce:

He'd best go back to worrying about NBA officiating. He is a useless Repuke.

for all to see--that is more important to me than winning.

:shrug:

Remembering how we told him we've got his back...

NGU.

What is the point of this effort? Are you announcing similar attempts in Florida? Wrecker Nader was not on the Ohio ballot, if recollection serves, and so would have no standing there....

"You can't pick your family, but you can pick your friends."

it opens a lot of doors for recounts. This is the whole tactic.

Ralph is a hero right now...Don't be so dismissive of this action. It is a very good thing.

Wrecker Nader is a pile of turd, and worth less....

"I did not attend his funeral, but I sent a nice note saying I approved of it."

.......and he who pulls you from the shit is not necessarily your friend. :)

I'm a little wary of this as well.

But this fellow is hardly attended by a reek of credibility nowadays....

"Life is like a sewer: what you get out of it depends on what you put into it."

First smile i've had in several days.

He is a steady comfort to the thoughtful soul.

"I have heard nothing against him except that he is a human being: that ought to be enough to hang any man."

there is political dissagreement and there is moral disagreement.

a lot of us were not very keen on ralphs tactics in this election. that is politics.

on this, honest elections and integrity we are in total aggreement and are staunch allies. this is a morality issue.


so put your hate aside, save it for politics.

Wrecker Nader has no more moral standing than political standing: he is a shabby disruptor, and nothing more.

why would any democrat oppose a recount...anywhere? who cares who asks for it? for god's sake...some of us are worse than them.

Particularly not in a state that Sen. Kerry carried.

Nor can charges made without evidence behind them be of use in swaying the public on this matter.

A legitimate petion for recount in Ohio would be of use. So would documentation concerning machines and procedures there, and witnesses to activities of various county officials. There could well have been skullduggery after the votes were cast, and anything that actually could work to cloud the legitimacy of this election in the popular mind, as opposed to the activist mind, would be very much to the good.

Most of the damage was done, though, before the votes were cast, by suppression of registration, intimidating anouncements, and inadequate provision of equipment and supplies. These things are impossible to rectify afterwards, unfortunately. But it would be useful indeed, for next time, to nail down as many facts about them as possible, and cook up some possible pre-emptive remedies.

"Just because they're dead don't mean they stopped being Democrats."

i understand kerry can't do it because he would get gored. but someone has to take stand against what we all know is voter fraud. kerry and nader are friendly...consider the possibility that there may be some collaboration here, in a state that is sympathetic. there is far too much at stake here to continue to shoot the messenger. whoever is challenging this election, wherever, deserves the support of the so-called opposition.

This will not be the first time we have disagreed on some particular point, and probably will not be the last. It is, of course, always a pleasure to find myself in agreement with you.

"The bonds of friendship are so strong they can support anything except a request to lend money."

unless of course you prefer * the lesser to take office in january of 2005. personally...i find that far more offensive than the possibility that nader might not be as useless as you think. isn't collaboration what all of the nader-haters here wanted?!?! well, now you have it on a silver platter, and might i ask, what could possibly be the harm in a recount? even if it is nader who requests it? the fascists will not like us any more or less, that is for sure.
i want them out of office, and i don't care who gets credit for it.
LOL...and don't ask me for any money either :7

Regardless of our feelings in the matter, and regardless of the possible fraud and any other thing. That, unfortunately, is a given. It is important to understand what can, and what cannot, be accomplished with the means at our disposal.

"These are crimes that reach the sky. Heaven is perturbed."

too many on our side have forgotten that, i'm afraid. they call themselves "realists" when in fact they are conformists and defeatists. heaven is perturbed...and so is earth.
go nader...go anybody!

There are no conditions to that statement.

But it is growing late, and well past Beelzebub's bedtime. My nature is as it is, and will not change.

May you prove the one who is right!

really, it doesn't. evil can only flourish when good people do nothing. goodnight, :evilfrown: i hope the good people prove me right, but i do not count myself among them. tonight i berated a woman old enough to be my mother because she voted for bush. she believes social security should be privatized, but when i asked her what would happen to the people who invested with the ken lays of the world, she said social security would protect them :crazy:
i cannot fathom another four years of these folks and their supporters, so forgive my passion...that's what i'm calling it these days.
rest well, friend...there is much to be done.

vote anymore.....there isn't any point to it.

RC

We're all out to get you.

NGU.

My little heart is all a'flutter in anticipation....

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

Mr. Nader has given his life to progressive politics and he has NEVER deviated...not once....which is a hell of alot more than can be said for your "democratic" heros.

He will quite likely be the only candidate with enough NUTS to challenge Bush.

I'll tell you who is a pile of turd. Some chicken shit panty waist who has his VP nominee come out and state that he will not give up until the last vote of the last person in the last line is counted....and fourteen hours later throws in the towel....tells me I should join hands with the closest fascist and sing kumbaya.

RC

If there was fraud in Ohio, then get a recount in Ohio.

If there was fraud in Florida, get a recount in Florida.

How does what happens in New Hampshire open a door anywhere else?

I don't trust Nader. He helps Republicans.

New Hampshire produced results that were out of whack then the results EVERYWHERE these machines were used to tally the votes is in question.

It's already on the AP wire that the machines are wacked.

Why do we suddenly love Ralph?

Why should you? Because he's the only candidate with big enough balls to challenge Karl Rove. I guess you'd prefer to join hands with his fascist minions and sing kumbaya as Kerry suggests.

RC

they are optical scan.

Diebold optical scan in Minnesota are associated with one of the anomalies that is on our "A" list. Optical scans in Florida are also tied up with an "A" list problem.

Bev

There are some who manage to see all kinds of connections where none exist, and grow quite fond of the exercise....

"I'd give anything to have that man's eyes."

ie. Diebold optical scans, used in 30 states, it opens up inquiries into all the other Diebold optical scans. Got it?

Bev

An enquiry opened by a discredited fringe candidate in a state won by Sen. Kerry will not serve as a fuse to ignite an investigation of other states won by the criminals of the '00 Coup.

"God is on the side of the biggest battalion."

What the fuck are you saying? Might makes right? the end justifies the means?

Just who the fuck do you work for anyway?

Some hold that might makes right; some hold that right makes might: some hold victory goes to the biggest battalion; some hold victory goes to the last fresh battalion. What is certain is that might can impose its right, and you might consult the Melesian Dialogues for further explication of the matter.

As to your other question, perhaps you might be good enough to suggest who you think employs me? We could all use a good laugh about now....

"Intricacy and subtlety are very different concepts."

Thank you. :)

...the talking points that hurt us and regurgitate them whole, but can't stay on the same page against Bush* even if their lives depend on it - and they do!

NGU.

Everything happens just the way Bush, Rove, James Woolsley and the Pentagon say it does...

Isn't that right, sir?

NGU.

But are you not revealing an attachment to homophobia by casting such an aspersion against someone you evidently dislike, on the grounds that he must share some other trait you despise...?

Once the Sage wrote: "The King has his executioner, but you are not that man. If you try and be him, it would be like trying to cut wood like a master carpenter. If you try and cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand."

And, frankly, a bit insulting - I'm queer, and some say I'm somewhat feminine, and to hear you talk, those who disagree with you are somehow effeminate disruptors.

Cut Magistrate some slack. It's not a law that we all have to agree. It is a rule that we don't attack others, we attack the issue.

I've had problems with some of Magistrate's views at times, even to the point of fiercely arguing. But your post is pointless and kinda dumb. There's no need to makes things personal.

"Honey, I couldn't be prouder of you if you thought you were Napoleon."

Dropping the soap and stuff??

NGU.

"Accusation is invariably an act of self-relevation."

Nader is going to challenge New Hampshire--OK got that one.

He was not on the ballot in Ohio and was not on the ballot in other states because it was determined there were false signatures on his petitions to run in that state.

So I cannot understand how is this challenge in NH is supposed to give a charge to Florida and Ohio supposed fraud, and please tell, how is anyone going to prove it with the digital ballots if there is no way to recount those votes who are permanently in cyber space somewhere.

... is cause for a thorough investigation everywhere.

The first step emboldens others, makes it more real for people, ends the "tinfioil" disruptions, gets more people looking and thinking and talking, and starts a wildfire burning.

and this is the reason for choosing a challenge in NH over Florida? Or is it the relatively smaller number of voters in that state.

What does that mean "apparent fraud" in the header of this thread?
What's the apparent fraud that is not as apparent in Florida?

Plus, if you have the attention of a relatively competent SoS, also one with at least a modicum of integrity, doesn't it make more sense than to go banging on the door of an SoS in a state like FL or OH for starters?

I am wondering if everyone understands those charts and their implication. I think we see too much analysis and take in too much information and don't always put our full attention on things - we suffer from information overload and are in a kind of stupor that nothing penetrates.

If the problem is proven, and if it implicates the central tabulator, all the other places with the same central tabulator come under question.

We know they can print "reports" from optical scan- as worthless as printing reports after the fact with touch screens.

Page-by-page, "reports," saw them used in a functionality test.

(A test that failed to catch problems, too)

Here is the fax #.....202-265-0092...write the name Ralph....your name....Black Box Voting....ACTIVIST....Challenge the election results in New Hampshire.

And a signature.

My hatred of him can be turned in an instant - I guess I'm a flip-flopper!!!

Just blue-skying here, but it's an entertaining thought.

Couldn't hurt to get the "recount" and "potential fraud" memes out there, and as one DUer said, Nader can get media attention.

Nor will Wrecker Nader gain much media attention with this stunt. Having failed in his effort to do damage to the Democratic candidate, he will subside into an extreme and uninterrupted privacy, so far as news organizations are concerned....

"Americans looked into the abyss, and fifty-one percent said: 'Hmmm...I wonder what's down there....'"

Hope they find the abyss to be wanting...

It is taken from a newer forum member, a Mr. "pk_du", who put it up Wednesday morning last. It seemed so strkingly good to me as to be deserving of wide circulation, and has been adopted into the repertoire.

"In this wicked world of sorrows, there remain things to be thankful for: for my part, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."

And good stuff from a newbie!

Look, the fucking point here is only a candidate can demand a re-count. Since Kerry won't, be glad someone will. If they can prove the results were faulty in a BBV machine then they have to examine all the BBV machines. Since N.H. isn't the only place the machines are in question then the ball is rolling. I don't care if Satan himself got it rolling... as long as we get to the truth. If the truth turns out to be Bush won fair and square then I'll accept that but somehow I doubt he managed to get more than half of America to vote for him...

They do this shit all the time...and they CERTAINLY aren't helping anything!

I'm with you, Walldude! This is A GREAT idea to examine NH.

It's a small enough state that KERRY WON, so therefore it will not appear that Nader siding w/ the Dems. Since it's small enough, it won't take too long to re-count, and EXPOSE THE LOPSIDED BUSH VOTES!!!!

Nader also ran in New Mexico, did he not?? And Florida! Once he shows that votes were wrong in ONE state,

THE WHOLE COUNTRY IS HIS OYSTER!!!

And we'll be able to show that these friggin' machines stole 1/3 of the country over to bush, when it actually belonged to Kerry!!!

THEN we'll see the "moral issues" that were so friggin' prominent in the right wing theft.

O8) May this attempt at reclaiming our Democracy be a CROWNING SUCCESS for the Dems and the BBV Patriots!!! O8)

:freak: I wonder if the repukes are going to contribute to Ralph's election in 2008???

:kick::kick:

anybody bitching about a recount request, from anyone, is full of :hurts: nader...wouldn't it be too rich if nader ends up being the catalyst to crack this fraud?

Enquiring minds want to know....

"Children make the best opponents at Scrabble, as they are both fun to beat and easy to cheat."

Wasn't the deadline to ask and pay for the recount missed in NH?

http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=46674

Nader requests recount of NH Presidential ballot
By GARRY RAYNO
State House Bureau Chief

CONCORD — Presidential candidate Ralph Nader yesterday requested a recount of the Presidential election ballots in New Hampshire.

However, the Attorney General's Office is not treating it as a valid request because a check to pay for the recount did not accompany the request.

Both the request and the check have to be filed with the Secretary of State's Office by 5 p.m. yesterday by law.

Assistant Attorney General Orville "Bud" Fitch said "At this point, we don't consider this a valid request."

Nader writes "We have received reports of irregularities in the vote reported on the AccuVote Diebold Machines in comparison to exit polls and trends in voting in New Hampshire. These irregularities favor President George W. Bush by 5 to 15 percent over what was expected. Problems in these electronic voting machines and optical scanners are being reported in machines in a variety of states."

more...

the reporter is NOT privvy to inside details.

that is all I can say.

I HEREBY FLIP FLOP.

I'm not going to say anything bad about Ralph again. For a while. :D

BTW, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. PM me or post a link for contributions. I'll give to BBV too, I mean specifically for the Nader recount request if necesssary.

how many of us would be sitting by if we found out our party was guilty of this?

I would not, i would be calling for their heads.
when some asshole like dick morris writes a book and says how they use exit polls to determine the validity of elections and then comes out and says in "THIS' election it must be the exit polls that are wrong, i see a man whose greed and party loyalty trump his morality and honesty.

this is about as unamerican as it gets. we are supposed to be about fair play, elections, majority rule and freedom. there is a group of people in this country that see this as their litter box to shit in as they will. bush/cheney they know no law that they consider binds them, for them it is the law of the jungle.

we see, ralph nader, who we may have differences with is in the truest sense "one of us".
One of the real ""moral majority"" that would not revel in a stolen election who would not allow corporate corruption to go unpunished and who would not kill except in the direst circumstance in self defense.

Edited to add: And/or Bev.

Well, the money is rolling in to BBV.org. That's great. Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy made big pitches for donations, and there was more than just a little panhandling on BBV's behalf right here at DU as well. All good, all for "the cause."

But what I want to know and indeed all those who donated need to know -- and we'd like to know it definitively -- is this: since you've posted this thread (as if BBV.org spearheaded the Nader recount initiative or something), is BBV.org using all these donations to help FUND the $40K Nader recount? Yes or No, please.

Just good accounting, you know?

An eye must always be kept on the money in these matters....

expenses. I never got the impression that it was exclusively, or even MOSTLY, for the Nader thing.

If I'm not mistaken, Nader has some $$ left over from the republicans' donations, but I believe he needed some signatures.

The BBV donations are to help fund all of the work in ALL of the states that are under examination, the FOIA requests being drawn up, etc.

I'm pretty sure that's what the extra $$ is needed for. At least, that's what I've been donating for!

:kick::kick:

the donations we have recieved are for the costs of the FOIA requests. Just as an example Colorado charges $20 an hour for research (which they vastly over estimate) and $1.25 per page for copying. Some of the reports we have requested can be up to 150-200 pages long.

Do we need to have a call offline about this? I can't stick him or his team with the bill after all the begging I did, and I don't have that kind of money lying around....

details real soon.

they charge for the FIOA searches and they charge *per page* for the results. I believe Andy discussed this aspect on Randi's show yesterday afternoon...

1.25 per page + $20 hour research time.

:yourock:

We are looking for fraud, not looking for ways to help Kerry. Since Kerry won NH, no one can say that the Dems are pulling tricks for the purpose of overturning a result in a particular state for partisan gain. This is much, much bigger than Kerry, and bigger than the Democratic party.

The less partisan the more effective. The Republican propagada machine started back before the election parroting the "Democrats will do anything to win" theme.

Of course, any intelligent observer would see that as a strong indicator of prio intent on the part of the Republicans to tamper with the elections. Otherwise why try to prepare public opinion about Dem recount attempts before the fact? Now, we all now that Democrats don't "do anything to win" and are, if anything, reluctant to contest elections. But the average person out there is not well enough informed to know this and to therefore question why the Republicans would start repeating that as a mantra. But we do know.

That is interesting, because the Republican leadership must know that we know, yet they aren't worried. They may be overconfident. Always think in terms of "how are the Republicans trying to get Dems to react?" and then don't do that.

on edit - added a missing word

And please say it to Bev, too. I'll get back to work crunching numbers now! :) Best, Ida

you ROCK!

why not recount Colorado or something.

I busted out laughing over that one. Hi Andy! Hope you are well.

ummm I have been on for this cause a lot the last two days.

preferably a drink. we need you now and you can't leave to go anywhere. time for a little toddy. You deserve it. Hell, we all deserve it.

Look at your original post.

:crazy:

didnt we win N.H? so why focus on this state?

Plus, NH has a paper trail. Establishing a pattern of 'miscounts' helps us move on to investigating in OH and Florida. My take on it, at least.
Oh, also because Kerry won in NH, so the GOP is less likely to point fingers about 'sore losers'.

I've read several reports saying that Nader's request (which was submitted one minute before the deadline) was NOT considered valid because he lost less than 1% of the vote and therefore had to send NH $80,000 to cover the cost of a hand recount. One article I read said he could appeal the ruling, but at this point his request isn't being considered. Can anyone verify this? If so, it seems like Ralph's big attempt at redeeming himself is kind of an empty gesture. How are we going to move on the voter fraud issue if we can't get the state gov'ts to recount the damn votes??

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AI...

and if need be we will sick the lawyers on em.

That makes me feel somewhat better. I'm still wondering, though: couldn't we get the Dems to cough up some of that money they had set aside for the recount that Kerry called off?

anyone on the ballot or any 5 registered voters could ask for a recount and they had to recount. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure
it was Ohio.