I think the so called "Christians" are the problem

When I was a kid, growing up as a Catholic, we never had politics shoved down our throats.

Now that is what is happening to Christian churches.

Maybe we should all realize that these so called "Christians" are the the problem, not the answer and we should hit them where it hurts. In the wallet.

Maybe the other Christians should stop donating, but still attend Church.

If you attend church, question what they put out as the "truth", question what they put out as "God's Will", question how GWB's actions show "Christian values" or even "moral values."

Infiltrate a fundy church if you can stomach it, and "innocently" ask questions so you can be "enlightened", but keep on questioning the logic and "Christianity" of fundy positions.

It's that simple. It should just not be tollerated.

I am just suggesting that we invade their insular little realms and try to get them sorta thinking - at least make them answer the questions.

let's say there is going to be a majority of Islamic people in the US or ANY other religion - they TOO can press their religious ideas within the political system / cause hey, the Christians did so.

With this they opened doors they cannot understand or see yet to come cause of their short-sightedness.

It's just being a hypocrit to think that only the values of Christianity are the ones EVERYONE SHOULD like.......I really wonder how they would feel if all of a sudden some other religion would put their faith in their throat.

to the right. Not directly, but that's the practical impact. Plus there was a link on his site to a set of 5 sermons to be used throughout October, designed to steer the vote, as well.

Went to Catholic schools all the way through. Never had a music teacher or any other teacher tell us that, "candidate X kills babies".

The abortion topic never formally came up until 12th grade for a religion and ethics class, and it was debated by us so we could learn debating skills.

It was considered crass to discuss your religion or proselytize.

BTW-told by a fundie that Catholics are not Christians.

PS-we even had kids from other denominations in our school (mostly Jewish) and we never tried to make them convert. We were expected to be respectful of others' religions and opinions.

When I grew up evangelicals were heathens and we were instructed to genuflect whenever we walked past their church. Moreover, you had to get permission from the priest to enter their churches for a marriage or funeral.

The church softened after Vatican II for political reasons. In the 80's and 90's the RCC bonded with the moral majority following abortion.

Today, if abortion is outlawed and I believe it will be, the denominations will seperate to define themselves again.

When I was younger, I came off the tail of that. We stopped having to genuflect on the sidewalk around 1973, when the younger clergy made the older ones stop doing so, and making us do so.

I was never told evangelicals were heathens, nor was my mother who attended Catholic schools in the 1940s.

I, however, was told I was a "heathen" quite a few times by evangelicals, but would laugh it off as the joke it was.

I do think it is time to both stop giving and stop attending. I just can't stomach helping anyone who voted for "the present administration". I am a member of a very liberal mainstream denomination, but there are more repugs than dems in the membership, and somehow teaching the values of Jesus to their children makes me want to puke. I am sure they go home to hear about the baby-killers. I have to quit now.

its not Christians in general, its Old-Testament Christians vs New Testament Christians. The so-called "Christan Right" gets their morals from the Old and doesn't care about the turning the other cheek & helping the poor stuff. The New Testament Christians see morality as something more than just abortion and making sure two dudes can't get married if they want.

(Obviously there is nothing wrong with the Old Testament per se, look at how many liberal Jews there are... and for the record I am neither Christian nor Jewish.)

The "Values" debate has to be exposed for what it is - often harsh, legalistic, unthinking, misinformed or deliberately deceptive, easily manipulated by the unscrupulous, and merciless. Anyone who prays for judgment on humankind mocks the sacrifice of Christ. And, I will add, that person is asking to be included in judgment by the exact terms with which he asks that his fellow men and women be judged.

No thanks. I want mercy, so I think maybe I should be merciful too.

The bottom line is that there is a small segment within the Christian church that genuinely believes that it is free of any judgment. This is the bunch that has to be countered. Most of the rest are misinformed, greedy, scared or just plain confused. Deal as gently as you can with these, because sooner or later, most will recognize their mistakes, and condemnation will not be helpful for them in the process. You cannot learn mercy until you have seen it demonstrated to you firsthand.

Mac in Ga

The religous right have a stangle hold on churches, but they need to realize that without money, they cant do any thing.

Mainstream Christians should stop giving money. Period. Continue going to church, but stop the flow of money.

Let's throw a couple of numbers into a coffee can and rattle it around a bit.

We'll say your local church sends two-thirds of its contributions to the national church and keeps a third. If the entire congregation were to cut its donation to one-third, so that the local church could pay the light bill and feed the pastor, it wouldn't affect the national church in the least. This is because you have some serious fundies running massive corporations. Any denomination that was trying to hide behind the skirts of religion while it manipulated the political system to achieve its goals could easily call Richard DeVos at Amway, Truett Cathy at Chick-Fil-A, Norm Miller at Interstate Batteries, any of the Waltons at Wal-Mart, or probably any one of a hundred other CEOs (not to mention the Reverend Moon) and get all the money they needed.

And the best part? If Richard DeVos sent a thousand dollars to George Bush to try to abolish abortion or liquor, he'd have to report it and there would be limitations as to how much more he could send. But he could send a million dollars to the Pentecostal Assemblies or the Southern Baptist Convention, never have to worry about reporting it as a political contribution, never have to worry about there being a limit, and he can even deduct it from his taxes!

and today few Germans attend church. I believe the hypocrisy of the churches largely turned the next generation against the church. The fundies don't realize that their moral hypocrisy will eventually turn people away from the church and God. From what I read here, it's already happening. Be aware that the leadership in many of the oldest denominations in the USA oppose this dministrations policies and some even support gay unions/marriage.

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that's just a nice excuse for how people can be both liberal and christian.

The problem is magical thinking. The problem is the idea that we are NOT responsible for our own lives and futures - that somehow God will take care of it. It's horribly irresponsible.

who holds any type of spiritual belief system attack an atheist on their positions. Believe as you like or not but discounting anothers beliefs is prejudicial and bigotted behaviour. Quite an un-liberal trait, I would say.

as a gay atheist, and then tell me about your experiences.

This is not about what happens on DU - it's what happens in MY country. And religious idiots have ruined it.

I may not live in it as a gay atheist but I also know many Christians like myself who do not believe nor behave that way. And we are very responsible in the way we live our lives. We ascribe to the sentiment of judge not, lest you be judged. We are open, generous and understanding.

There's no need to be so dismissive of and confrontational toward all Christians when we are not all the narrow minded fundies that your anger is directed at. Don't take on the behaviours of those you despise.

Like Margaret Cho has said, (paraphrasing here):

It makes no sense to be prejudiced toward any one group of people when there are so many perfectly valid reasons to dislike each other on an individual basis.

;)

sorry you don't like it. Christians control almost every elected office in the country. They control our media and our culture. They control vast wealth. You can't walk through any town in America without seeing a church every few blocks.

If you're an atheist, you can't get elected dog-catcher. A former President has said we're not real citizens. We are scapegoated, abused, beaten, insulted and crapped on.

I'm sorry a few posts on a message board threaten your 99.99% control of my country. I know you all wish it were 100%, but cope.

Claims of anti-christian bigotry are nonsense. You have it all - learn to take the occasional snide comment.

direct your anger where it belongs...at the fundies that are trying to tell us all how to live our lives. I fully believe that God gives everyone free will and that faith is dependent upon it. I'm pro-choice, I'm for gay rights, women's rights, freedom to speak and believe as we all choose. I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone except maybe the control the hyper-religious are gaining in this country..it's anti-Christ and anti-Christian.

I'm not your enemy, I stand with you.

But I believe God helps those who help themselves.

but I have to disagree. The NT basics are simply: love your God, and love your neighbor. Jesus didn't specify what kind of neighbors we have. That's not magical thinking; that is extremely practical, because it's hard to get angry at someone who likes you regardless of your differences, and does what people who like you do.

The spiritual aspect of the debate, I think, is where we differ, and that's our mutual privilege. The abrasiveness and arrogance of the right wing in the debate over "values" seems to me to indicate that there is a translation of the Bible somewhere that qualifies loving your neighbor as yourself, depending on what you think of them. Nope. False doctrine.

Mac in Ga

...mindset of the OT - rules, commandments, orders - and the Christian Progressives tend to follow the nurturing way of the individual whose name both groups claim - Christ.

NGU.

A fair number of the more radical fundamentalists seem to want the NT standard to apply to themselves and the OT to their enemies. This isn't cognitive dissonance; this is mercilessness and should be called as much.

Mac in Ga

I hadn't thought of it that way.

NGU.

i agree with everything you have said, and gracefully so.

i had expected my remark to be an easily recognized metaphor, but apparently it wasn't.

the pyschology of the old testament is different than that of the new testament, and if one examines the right wing and strident chrisitan dogma, there is inherent in it a philosophy of violence and vengence, of God towards Man and men towards men.

that is not the message of Jesus as preached in the Gospels. However, it is the viewpoint of the Old Testament.

i am not a Christian, for to be a Christian one has to accept that Christ rose from the dead. that is what started it all vis-a-vis Christianity. However, one can admit that all religions (and philosophies) are merely attempts to reconcile waking consciousness with the mysteries of the universe of our senses.

i am not so much afraid of any religion as I am of the dogmatists who demand that only their reality exists.

so i do understand where dookie is coming from, i feel ya' dog! but there are many followers of Jesus who are not your enemies, and that is because they are not dogmatists who want to force you to think or act like them. actually they are on your side and struggle against the dogmatists of their religions who demand fidelity to the letter but not the spirit of their faiths.

it's the biggest problem we face. We have turned our backs on the Enlightenment and are being gleefully led back to the dark ages.

I would think a single tape recording of some preacherman advocating any political position would be enough to shut the mofo's DOWN.

My freaking hippy community radio station has to be super careful not to even appear to endorse somehting political why the hell can these jerks get away with it????

Bad ones punish it.

any christian?

who wouldn't recognize a Beatitude if it bit 'em in the butt. The Kristians. The Kee-ris-terinis. NOT "any Christian"

At least that's how I see it. But of course I defer to the poster.

Why is it so hard to be clear about whom we are speaking about?

Are we talking about Martin Luther King Jr. Was he a "so-called" Christian? I just don't get this. What does "so-called" mean in this context.

I respect Christians who recognize those aspects of faith- Blessed are the merciful, the peacemakers, the meek, those who hunger for justice, etc....Those who adhere to the spirit of the word rather than the letter of the law, finding more holiness in caring for the aged, poor and infirm, than in imposing society-wide legalistic restrictions.

I wasn't talking about MLK at all!

"Fundie" isn't a good term, imo. I used the "k" like I might say "Faux
instead of "Fox" news. I know some fundamentalist Christians who somehow have peace with not converting everyone and their brother- they live their faith and do good things.

But those who use the religion as a political tool...they don't get called the same thing. Not by me.

...THIS Christian.

NGU.

But we already have words for them, so why use some vague and offensive formulation?

If you had a problem with Fundamentalist Hindus, would you talk about "darkies"? I really, really doubt you would.

I just have a problem with "Christians" being painted as such villains. That's like saying blacks are criminals and gays are perverts. None of that is true in the whole. Now, I'm sure that some blacks are criminals and some gays are perverts. And there are DEFINITELY Christian villains. But we aren't ALL villains.

NGU.

IMO we need to find a phrase the clearly identifies exactly who we're opposed to in order to avoid attacking those who are on our side. We need to stop striking out blindly in our anger.

How the hell else could you define a group of people who claim as their savior a man who preached peace, honesty, tolerence, understanding, etc while they support a murderous lying theif.

The only "morals" that the fundies are interested in are the private ones -- and almost exclusively those dealing with sex.

I prefer these morals:

Matthew 25:14-40
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'"

...for the Christian Progressives who share this space with you. Cool?

NGU.

btw, wth is ngu?

CINO. That's great. As a Christian, I LIKE that designation. It says it all without casting aspersions at those Christians who seek to embrace and follow the 2 most important commands that Christ left us. In fact, I'm adopting it as of now. I never liked "fundies" anyway.

Christians have the idea of a watchful, judgemental, often scornful God overseeing our accomplishments and our sins, sitting on high and choosing or condemning us. That's a scary God. I like the Buddha idea that God is not some great one on high judging us, but is the spirit within all of us; we are of God and God is of us. That makes us all Gods.
I like that idea.
If there is a God, then within each of us is where the God belongs, within all of us, and not up there in some heaven judging us high above and far away.
I think I could be comfortable with this species of God who resides within us because this reminds me that we all came from stardust when the earth was created, and from there we will return. That is about as close to religion as I can come.

I'm a Christian, and my God loves me a lot, and I don't think He likes it when I'm less good to other folks than He is to me. It might make people think badly of Him.

I believe He wants His people to stop picking fights with those who are no real threat to them and take a long look in the mirror that is supposed to reflect the Christian spirit in them. It's really hard to put someone else down, no matter how right you think you are, when you know in your own heart how empty you really are. And woe to you if you still can. Arrogance is an evil; humility, penitence and longsuffering are virtues. I don't see much of those on the right.

This is a very important key for us to remember: to win the values debate, we have to be kindly to those around us. Then, when people ask us about our vote, we can answer with authority. People who are nice to others aren't denounced as idiots, except by, uh, idiots. People who are good to others, when attacked, draw sympathy more often than contempt - and that sympathy is valuable indeed when you hold to your principles in the face of attack.

Mac in Ga

When's the last time you've belonged to a church? Do you really think you know what you're talking about?

When should we expect your lectures to blacks and gays and accordian players on what they should do? (Assuming you're none of the above, of course.)

NGU.

blindly following some a$$hole without questioning who, what, or why. I never did appreciate anyone trying to instill their opinions or beliefs on me and that's how I see the fundies and their agenda.

It's politics. Like the Falwells and Robertsons of the world. If a democrat does it were a demon, if a republican does it, well they just don't talk about it. The far right-wing fascist extremists believe their political aims are more important than their religion and their morals. So in otherwards, what they have done is inserted politics into religion rather than the other way around.

By your very attendance you are giving those preachers legitimacy. Stay home. Read the Bible yourself. You'll realize just how brainwashed you were.