Maybe Kerry had it right -we must find common cause

You, yes you, are going to hell. You're a heathen.

In today's parlance perhaps - you, yes you, are a redneck asshole christian moran who is dumb as a rock and want death because you voted for someone I didn't.

You do not hold my beliefs, therefore you are stupid. Or again, in a nother way, you don't hold my beliefs so you're not saved.

A phone rings somewhere in Missouri. "Hello?" 'You fucking stupid jackass, you're state is red, you're dumber than shit, and christians are the entire problem with all that is bad. I would also like to encourage you to, today, become saved and cleansed. Vote for a democrat, we love you all."

yeah. That will fucking work.

You want to get people to see and understand a different view than yours, tell them simply that they are stupid because their belief system (whether religious, political, et al) is not aligned with yours. And then bitch about them when they do the same. Works like a charm it does.

What did the right have we did not last election? They didn't vote against Kerry the man - they voted against what they saw as what was behind the man. The evil liberal leftists, aclu, jesse jackson, act up, and the list goes on. We voted and campaigned against a person - oh we would mention the issues, say they were important, then spend a lot of time blabbing about bush did this or that, he hired aliens to take out wtc, he was osama's buddy, he wasn't and he was simply caught with his pants down, bush bush bush.

The right has this weird knack for coming together and, at times perhaps often critical, having a focused view which is not an umbrella. Let me explain: The right has a lot of groups which will differ in smaller things but are linked on bigger things usually, and they get those bigger issues out there. The left is linked by a diverse group of smaller things and those groups also at times seem to have a different view of bigger things which dilutes messages. Anarchy, socialism, fight corporate entities - unless they are nice ones we like, fight the rich pigs who horde the money, unless they are soros and the like, wealth is evil - unless those holding it are on our list then they are ok because they use their money the way we like, be free - just don't smoke in bars, don't hate people because they have islam as a religion - only if they are christian then you can bash them all day long and that is ok here (oh, and don't bash jews, they vote democrat - but on the other hand, israel is bad sometimes maybe)

The lists go on. Now we might all have good and rational reasons behind the thinking (OK the above examples may be poor, but I am tired and it is late.)- but the messages often, even to me, seem like they contradict each other (on the most base levels for example).

Platform for one needs to be better defined and communicated. But that is another story. I have heard talk of late of building bridges. That to me is an excellent strategy. How can you get someone to come around to your ideas if you sit around calling them stupid, want to boycott states which are red (even if 49% voted blue). The point - Hate does not build bridges. Has not worked in the ME, won't work here and now.

If the right whips up hate of the ME do we tell em 'good job!'? And how is that hate fanned? Calling those we dont' like idiots, evil, wanting to punish them for not having the same values, convincing ourselves and others that they cannot change and want us all dead (hmmm, that sounds like freeper logic on the ME - guess that does not always apply...).

Do you want war? Do you want to hurt others because they are not like you? Do you see them as a threat and want to take them out - or at least impose sanctions which may harm them?

Are we progressives, or just mirror images of freepers with another label to make ourselves feel better?

This does not apply to all here, or in the movement, and is not intended against any one person who has posted X. It is merely my introspection without brash emotional interjection into some things I have gone over internally.

The common cause is not get rid of bush. That is so very narrow. The common cause should be, imho, to get our message out in a positive manner - our message, not our hatred at a person. Forget the person. Get the message out peacefully, in a way people can relate to it, and they will be able to see which people running for office really reflect their core values and who really will do the best thing for america.

We talk about Jesus being a liberal, and oh how those right wingers are oh so wrong about his views and we know better. Then we call them all manner of things from dumbasses to redneck assholes. yeah, we are setting a good example.

I am making the choice to not become what I despise. I will talk to my fellow man - regardless of his faith or who he voted for. I will treat them how I wish to be treated, and love them all the same. I will be patient with those whom see things in a way I don't, we all change some views over time - and time is the key. Sure, bush won and is in the house, but he cannot defeat or change the hearts and minds of the people, he cannot take away the spirit. The early christians had a real bad time of it in rome, they left the politics alone and changed the hearts and minds of people one to one. In the end, they won.

Had their votes stolen too.

Quit sowing discord. We're all on the same page here.

We're united against the machines.

Get up to speed.

are dangerous to the future of my country and I'm not the least bit interested in making nice with them.

There is no future..when is everyone goin get it...we lost. Not democrats...but democracy. Its over. We have had 3 stolen elections in 4 years.What the hell are you talking about. With in the next 4 years he will own SCOTUS, pass FMA and repeal the 22nd. We may have Bushit for decades until he dies. Think I'm crazy. Look at the damn 2004 map..they could get this passed in 3 years

You put it much better than I could ever do. Kudos to you. I just watched Grover Norquist on Bill Moyers. The democratic party is just a nuisance to them, that is all. We aren't people to work with, we are people to squash. So please, quit with the being concilitory route. We have a war on our hands. And like Paul Krugman has pointed out, unless we find somehting really big to bring them down, we are in deep shit.

I can no longer pretent that we have to 'choose' our candidate for 2008. There will not be an election. We had one shot at this and .........lost!

THE DEFINITION OF INSANITY

...is repeating the same behavior and expecting different results. We must be certifiable because that's what we did in 2000 ,2002 and it appears that's what we'll be did again in 2004. People are actually talking about mobilizing for 2006 to regain the Congress. LOL!!! After all I have read in the last 3 days; Kerry won....and they did a better job of 'stealing' it. There won't be a 2008

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7217.htm

I'm glad your glass is half full...mine isn't...it's over and we will never get this country back in my lifetime. As much damage as he did in the first 4 years is nothing in comparison to the next 4.

are dangerous to the future of my country and I'm not the least bit interested in making nice with them.

hop on over to freerepublic and look for threads on islam - the ME hates us, we cannot make them like us, kill em all.

When we use the same lines and beliefs they do, we have become them at the core. Might have different issues and labels, but the base/core is the same.

That is because I believe that this administration is corrupt, started an illegal war, neglected our national security on every level, lied to us, alienated our allies, and has attempted to corrupt the election process.

Same core beliefs? I don't think so. I can't equivocate their hated of me because Clinton got a Blowjob with my hatred of them for the above mentioned fallacies.

When I vote I could care less about their religious beliefs. Leave that to the Bush, Falwell, and Robertson. Canada is looking better each day: www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/11/con04485.html

Maybe he'll wake up when he's allowed a window seat on the last cattle car to the re-education camps. For being a GOOD Liberal...

on edit:

I'm assuming your pissed at Franken's dissing Red Staters on Letterman.

Trust me, Franken's part of the problem.

Just talking more in general. This election is pretty much over. * is in the house doing his thing. We can attack his base all we want, which will only make them do what we do when attacked - pull together. If we want to take things back we need to work at the local level and build up from there. We have 4 years (*or 2) to get people to see our view - if we spend all that time attacking bush and the right and calling them names 2006/8 won't change much.

We cannot force our ideals down the throats of peple anymore than a christian can force it down yours. We need to talk, discuss, shelve the hatred, and educate with factual information about issues and not about individuals. We can convince people to not like bush, but he is not running again, so they may retain their values and ideals and vote according to them - so we need to work to change those things.

I think Kerry lost because he didn't have a dirty politicking motherfuckker like Rove to back him up. Dirty politics works. If you can't beat them (and we can't), then we must join them in this sense - I say taht we need a Ken Starr for the left and a lot more liberal radio shows and talk shows. The repubs are FAR FAR FAR better at marketing than we are. We could take a lesson from them in that regard. Politics is a war - make no mistake about it. We could play nice and everything, but thast has always hurt us in the past. I say we should get meaner.

Here is what Karl Rove did to unseat the democratic incumbent judge on the state level of Alabama earlier in his career. He would start whisper campaigns. The best way to do this, it was said, was to start rumors in a law school for a state. These are the educated elite and they will know something about a judge, so things they say about a judge will be listened to. Then when the state law school students go home for breaks they spread out throuighout the state. They mention something here and there and suddenly a rumor has spread statewide. Then, after a while, the rumor seems like less of a rumor and more like common knowledge. Well, this particular judge happened to be very involved with charities for children, so Rove decided to attack what a person with a conscience would consider unassailable (Like Kerry's Vietnam service even when bush and his cabal were all chickenhawks). He started a whisper campaign with a rumor that tthe judge was a child molester. Then it became an issue (like flip flopping or swift boat crap) and it was discussed so frequently that it would either have to be denied or ignored. This is a catch-22 and there was no way out. The incumbent democratic judge lost and the republican judge became one of the first in a long time for Alabama. I wish I could remember the source wheree I could cite this story, but if you look hard enough, then you might find it. I read this a few montsh ago. The same article talked about the dirty tricks that LBJ used to pull - kind of similar actually. Politics is a dirty game for sharks only.

people don't have a core belief. It is akin, once again, to christians - they can hold a belief no matter what, and whispers won't make them change their mind.

I don't want to spend the next four years focused on bush this and bush that. I want to spend it increasing the base and on bbv and such things.

2008 can be good - as an example of what I mean in that, we are going through a merger at work and people fear all the change. But in that change is oppurtunity. in 2008 people have to have change, and such a time is ripe for us. If we spend it spewing hatred of people and calling them stupid then it is obvious who they will choose.

Kerry sucked it up, like it or not (and sometimes I don't because I think he should have at least mentioned voting issues to give that a boost which might help change things) and bowed out in a way which says to many people 'ok, we lost this time in a close race, but we are not going anywhere - our ideals will still work and can work' which sets up the right because they cannot energize their base on things like 'kerry was a sore loser and could not accept it, blah blah blah' - and this allows us an in-road. We don't need to worry about the folks on the left, we know how they vote. We need to focus on changing as many as we can on the right.

Reminds me of the whole Jesus eating with sinners thing - the sick need the doctor, not the well. How did he treat them? Certainly not like some treat those on the right. We are not them, and I for one will not act like them.

Temple.

I talk about my hatred against certain Republicans. It's mostly hatred against Republicans who are trying to make it clear that they own our asses now.

The Republicans that aren't being that arrogant are people I'm still talking to. Those are the people I'm trying to build bridges with.

We might not be able to work with Bush, but we might be able to convince some of his Republican colleagues to not piss off 55 million people any further than Bush already has.

You're right. One problem in the ME is that no bridges are made. The hate's not going to go away between the two sides as long as it's like this.

People have already voted for Bush now. The damage is done. What do we do? Hate and have an eternal civil war with the 58 million? That could happen if people from both sides don't start trying to get to each other in the better way NOW.

If those supporters would be willing to work with me on moral issues that we both agree on, then I'll work with them. I'll work with them on anything that it's actually possible to work with them on (which doesn't look like too much right now).

I do have to say that I think that more of this burden lies far more on the Republican's side though. They've been telling the Kerry supporters and the rest of the world to piss off and that they'll do whatever they want to to whoever they want to for three years now. They're going to have to put some effort into working with us. I REFUSE to bow down to them, and so do millions of other Americans.

who voted for Kerry, I can deal with that. However, if they supported Bush, and I know many as I live across the river from Idaho, I am trying to stay as far away from them as I can. I just do not have the respect for someone who is either that ignorant or uncaring.

Sorry.

into something they are. I won't let them.

I think maybe they want us to hate them, and spread that hate because it energizes their base - kind of like osama and such folks can use hate to get people to do things (like kill people from women to children without a thought).

I won't be a mind numbed robot running off pure emotion, and they cannot make me be that. Bush may be seen as the enemy, but he is only a single factor in it all. Have we utterly failed to, if you will, 'evangelize' the people and get them to swing to our faith/ideals? If so, why?

This is a time for analysis of methods. Keep on bush and crew, that is cool, but let's remove the hate - such things are what they live off of and hope for. Uncover fraud this year - even if some of it is on our side, be impartial and open minded, let people know we care about all people; from christians to gays all are our fellow humans.

Hatred is what has led us to war, death, and more. It always seems to have the same result.

I will not make nice with these people, the ones who are really wrong and will not listen. The racists, for example. Too many people have ignored racist statements for too long. I won't put up with it anymore. Or the homophobia or any of that crazy Bush was appointed by God nonsense.

Which is different than creating a Democratic Platform of values and economic and social justice. That I will talk about, but it's going to take alot of educating because these folks have some pretty fixed ideas about economies and society too. Like tax cuts create jobs. And trees should be used like wheat. And regulation stifles business. And alot more.

The Despoiling of America


How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State




By Katherine Yurica



With Editorial and Research Assistant Laurie Hall



February 11, 2004







Image from GQ Magazine
















The First Prince of the Theocratic States of America




It happened quietly, with barely a mention in the media. Only the Washington Post dutifully reported it.<1> And only Kevin Phillips saw its significance in his new book, American Dynasty.<2> On December 24, 2001, Pat Robertson resigned his position as President of the Christian Coalition.



Behind the scenes religious conservatives were abuzz with excitement. They believed Robertson had stepped down to allow the ascendance of the President of the United States of America to take his rightful place as the head of the true American Holy Christian Church.



Robertson’s act was symbolic, but it carried a secret and solemn revelation to the faithful. It was the signal that the Bush administration was a government under God that was led by an anointed President who would be the first regent in a dynasty of regents awaiting the return of Jesus to earth. The President would now be the minister through whom God would execute His will in the nation. George W. Bush accepted his scepter and his sword with humility, grace and a sense of exultation.



As Antonin Scalia, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court explained a few months later, the Bible teaches and Christians believe “… that government …derives its moral authority from God. Government is the ‘minister of God’ with powers to ‘revenge,’ to ‘execute wrath,’ including even wrath by the sword…”<3><snip>

VERY long, but a MUST read. THIS is where the religious right want to take YOU and every other citizen of this country. I refuse to go there.

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm