Not moving left or right, but re-imagining the debate

Find a way to get these "moral" voters in the South and elsewhere to say:

"You know, I really disagree with the Democrats on gay marriage, but I agree with them on X so much that I will vote for them anyway."

I believe that issue exists for us to take up, and it may already be in our platform. What remains is intensive and imaginative marketing and packaging. It wasn't our position on gay marriage or guns or god or whatever that killed us in '04, it was that this was all some voters could see as the debate. That was our failure--not refusing to legislate bigotry. We failed to find something more important than the petty hatred of some voters, and it shouldn't be so hard to do that.

After all, this is what the GOP uses their famous "wedge" issues for, from racism to the current form of fashionable bigotry. The GOP exists primarily to push the Powell doctrine, or the march of free market adventurism, corporatism, and right-wing economics. These are all consistently unpopular and won't net votes. But guess what will? Moral issues, bigotry, fear and hate. We can beat this, I think, but not by being a little bit bigoted, fear-mongering or hateful.

We have a message that is TRUE - common sense, based on decency and genuine concern for our fellow humans - we're not conveying it to the average masses who have been too suckered into the commercialized reality show haze to remember what counts in this world. We need to get to them - not sell out the ideals.

I think honestly if we talked about social justice which to me is helping out the poor, the hungry, and sick etc we could pick up so votes. I agree with what youre saying here.

what we're trying to do here - to make this Country into one in which we're all living a good life. One where we are all fullfilled and able to reach out to the greater world and help. Shit - there's no god damned reason why the prosperity of the world can't be spread. For fuck's sake the prosperity of towns isn't spread.

One of the reasons why I want to help the less fortunate is because my grandparents grew up quite poor and instilled in me a belief that helping the less forunate is noble, we need to I think give the people of this country I think a desire to help people not as well off than they are and to inspire them to serve their country, you know like peace corps etc.

empowerment. The meaning of solidarity. Let me help you up brother or sister so we can march on to the promise of a life where we are at peace and productive.

One of the reasons Bush feared to directly support the sunset of the Assault Weapons Ban was because of its name. This was one of the few times he really faltered and couldn't push an issue that was red meat to his base, and it was because the debate was framed against him. Being against keeping "assault weapons" off the street would be too vast a political liability. We need to frame these economic issues in such a way that being against them would be too large a political liability. We would give them the choice they've tried to give us--to stick with their unpopular elitist "principles" on these economic issues, or to take a milquetoast stance that would be seen throughout the country as a sign of weakness.

for the 87 billion before I voted against it" crap. The way the Republicans have played this shit is they get legislature passed by making it political suicide for their opponents not to pass it. Then they win no matter what. We need to be shrewd in the same way - but at the same time uphold the REAL fucking values!

Plans aren't enough. The plans have to be explained with a vision and with morality. This is how it was done in the early twentieth century when progressives beat the robber barons.

You have to drop water and retardent, dig lines, protect structures, set backfires, hit spot fires, and hope the weather is on your side.

I had hoped we would do a good job with all the different groups we had, each hitting their own portion of this right wing raging fire. But we didn't.

A new voice of morality is certainly necessary. But so is leafleting their churches with information on exactly WHO the Christian Coalition is and where their money comes from.

And doing the same at union halls about outsourcing and trade issues. And Walmart about the profits and stockholder earnings, while their tax dollars go to subsidize those profits through food stamps, medical, housing, energy.

A truth squad in front of every news outlet in the country, handing out fliers about the news that isn't getting reported.

All kinds of things we need to do, and registering voters at the same time. I'm not sure we've got the tenacity to do it. And I'm not sure the existing activist groups can put aside their own political agendas to create the solutions that average people will agree to anyway.

:)

I'm such a bitch because I'm scared shitless about corporate control. They are trying to get us to willingly give up the only power we've ever had, the Bill of Rights and the right to hold the government accountable to us. All the trial lawyer bullshit, junk lawsuit, tort reform, that's all it is. Then they're going to gradually take every social program we have now and turn it over to corporations. Then we will have no power because they've already got the media and we will have given up our right to sue in a meaningful fashion. I'm truly scared shitless.

And people want to talk about moving left or right on gay marriage or dumping the gun issue. :eyes: We've got WAY bigger fish to fry. And no matter what we do on gay marriage or guns or anything else, they'll just throw up another hate campaign the next time anyway. When they manage to destroy a man's war record, a decorated WAR record, there is absolutely nothing they won't do.

It's the corporate control, it's the lies. We have to stop them.

In reality the dem politicians in congress have never actually done a damn thing for gays except vote NOT to vote on the FMA. And not even all of them did that.

life, nor donated money to them, nor worked my butt off to get them elected. I do all that for Dems. But what have they done for me, except SAY they support equality. Nothing, just like the republicans.

You didn't answer me when I posted earlier, so I'll try again.


When you say you've gotten nothing in 25-30 years, well then you're just being full of shit. And when you say you've gotten nothing from John Kerry in 20 years, you're even more full of shit. You may not think it was a big deal that he introduced equal rights in the workplace back in the 80's, but maybe you've forgotten the AIDS and gay hysteria at the time. You may think it's nothing that he fought for Ryan White legislation too, but there's a whole lot of gay people who benefited from the drugs and other assistance. And there will be alot more folks benefitting from the AIDS legislation he wrote in 2000.

We wouldn't even be talking about gay marriage if it weren't for the Democratic Party standing beside you all these years. And John Kerry as well.

So go ahead and be pissed about people wanting to throw you to the wolves the last few days. But you can get off your high horse when you start saying people haven't fought for you at all for the last 30 years. In fact, I just dumped a 10 year friendship over gay marriage 2 weeks ago.

passed on the issue of equality for gays. Even when they held the majority they did not do this.

John was one of only 13 Senators to vote against DOMA when it passed anyway, and then Clinton signed it. Not only have they not faught to pass legislation for equal rights, most of them have stabbed us in the back on them.

They talk a good game, but they do nothing for us when it comes to gaining equality.

In exit polling and other polls, better than 60% of the public support SOME form of legal recognition for gay partnerships. Why haven't the dems, including John Kerry, who SAYS he supports it, introduce legislation for federal civil unions?

It's all talk, no action.

I understand your desire for a more proactive approach, but I'd rather hear you say we haven't done enough than that we haven't done anything.

because I'd like them to actually do what they say they support, preferably before hell freezes over, particularly if they are going to blame me for losing elections.

See how far you get with no Dem support. You've got equal rights legislation in all kinds of states. Hate crimes legislation. Clinton also signed an executive order to prohibit discrimination in the federal workplace. AIDS funding. John Kerry stood up on gay rights in the military and for civil unions and would not support any constitutional amendment anywhere that banned gay marriage. He stated gays are children of god and had quite eloquent words in the last debate. They put gay marriage on the ballot, why didn't gays put civil unions with full partnership rights on the ballot? Blacks and women don't have full equal rights yet either.

Truly, I am so sick of this. I am talking about federal politicians. Presidents, senators, and congressional reps. And no, they didn't help us do a damn thing about "equal rights" in the states (which don't exist by the way except in MA and VT -- where the hell did you get that idea?). They have not helped pass one single piece of legislation in support of equality in 25 yrs. Not a single one.

Haven't you folks noticed that fewer and fewer minorities vote for dems every year? Look at the stats. Blacks and hispanics feel the same way. Dem politicians talk a good game, but there is never any action.

But yeah, some "stick with you" because the alternatives are worse, but when they get tired of being taken advantage of, they just say screw the whole process.

Dems would never lose an election if all blacks and gays voted for them -- if they all turned out for the election.

If the Dem party would have some balls and actually put their money where their mouth is minorities would drown out the Christian right. ANd that is a fact!

Enter closet. Lock, throw key away.

Is that what you want?

You seriously see no progress in 30 years? That's truly sad.

You aren't aware that state after state has passed various rights for state workers to have partnership access to medical care and all other workplace rights? Did you forget you used to be able to be discriminated against on housing even? There's GLBT groups on high school campuses these days, homosexual tolerance is taught in many high school sex ed classes.

You're throwing a temper tantrum. Like I said, people have been acting really horribly the last few days. You have a right to be upset. But you're going way overboard when you say there's been no progress at all and that nobody has stood up for your rights.

We do need an LBJ, somebody who knows that sometimes you just bite the bullet and get the job done, like he did on civil rights. The Democratic Party is still having a hell of a time on that one, but we'll survive.

Again, federal level politicians and federal rights is what is being discussed here. But if you must talk about state rights I live in WA state, where we STILL have no equal rights to housing and jobs, even though they have been introduced in the legislature of 27 straight years, many of those years with dem majorities in the legislature.

Before that I lived in Ohio, Indiana, KY, and TN, where I also had none of those rights. It's perfectly legal to fire me for being gay or deny me housing, or just about anything else. Man, straight people sure are ignorant about all these imagined rights we have.

And despite that, for 25 years I have supported dem candidates. Let's just say it's getting a little old at this point.

Glad to know YOU will survive. Good luck getting elected with your brilliant strategy of alienating and scapegoating your supporters though. That will be quite a trick.

I support you completely, and then you turn around and say I'm scapegoating you.

California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Vermont and Wisconsin prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Colorado, Maryland, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Washington bar discrimination in public employment based on sexual orientation.

I bet it was Republicans what done this.

Colorado, WA, Ohio? I am not going to look up every state you mention, but I can safely say you are full of baloney on several of them. In fact, we have been trying to pass that law in WA for 27 yrs. I should know - I am the chair of the board for the state LGBT org.

Maybe the reason you feel the way you do is because you are so badly misinformed. I would suggest you educate yourself, starting today, if you want to have these discussions.

Start here:

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Your_Community&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=8471

What, do you think I just pull shit out of my ass and type it up? I'm not saying it's perfect or even enough, but damn, things are a hell of alot better than they were 25 years ago. You need to take a few deep breaths and do a little reality check. You do know women are still being beaten, raped and killed in their homes every single minute of the day, right? Just because they're women and some male pig thinks he's got to prove he's better than her.

http://speakout.com/activism/issue_briefs/1223b-1.html

They seem to have taken one or two cities in each of those states and extrapolated that to the entire state. Most of those states do not have ANY state laws that protect the rights of the gays and lesbians at all.

Is it legal to beat, rape and kill women in their homes everyday? I don't think so. So what does that have to do with this topic?

This doesn't mean you have to slavishly agree with everything they say. At worst you'll have a group who will defend you from bigoted legislation, and at best in a few years with the right leaders, they will give you the equal rights you deserve. If those rights are your goal, I guess I don't understand what abandoning the party does to get you closer to it.

Would blacks support dems if the party, it's supporters, and the media spent three days (and counting) talking about how (mostly fictional) Dem support for blacks supposedly caused the dems to lose an election?

Truly, I believe black voters would run from the dem party en masse. And why shouldn't they? I really don't think you folks realize how horrific the things you say sound to gays and lesbians.

What about abortion? Did you just miss all the abortion threads? My mother died when she was pregnant. Maybe she needed an abortion and couldn't have one back in 1960, I don't know. I'm 47, god knows I couldn't go through another pregnancy. I still have to call and make sure the local hospital even does abortions because my daughter is pregnant and what if she has an emergency. But hey, I'm not throwing a personal hissy fit because people are talking about abortion. Grow the fuck up.

And if no dems stood up for you as you lost the right to choose and then the media blamed YOU for wanting the right to choose if it resulted in dems losing an election anyway, and then the dems stood silently as you were blamed, you might "get it." Let's hope you don't have to find out.

Good god. "Partial-birth" abortion is a piece of phony crap that was voted on by most of the Democratic Party. Women NEED those abortions in late pregnancies to save their goddamned lives! Harry Reid is a pro-life Democrat. Maybe you need to come out of your self-centered little world and recognize other people have problems to deal with and are fighting very important issues too. Most women think of abortion as a choice issue, but if these nut bags have their way, they're going to outlaw it altogether and alot of women are going to discover they can't even get them for their health or they have to tell every private detail of their life to get them if they've been raped or molested. Everybody is suffering right now, everybody.

for choice. It's ridiculous for you to even imply that gays and lesbians have gotten that kind of support from the democrats. It's purely ludicrious.

Our issues have been on the back burner for 25 yrs, and we have stood loyally by anyway. And what thanks do we get? We get demonized by our own party. And then your attitude of love or leave it just to top things off.

Have the last word if you choose. I am done trying to reason with you.

They don't care about anything else. As lonag as they're fat & happy, they could care less about little things like Life, Liberty & the Pursuit of Happiness. If the GOP can motivate 10 million people to vote on these issues and nothing else, then we've got a lot of work ahead of us.

Unfortunatly, they usually live in the poorest areas of the country, so they'll be the first to starve under the Bush "recovery" plan. Perhaps if they see their kid slowly die of a disease with an expensive cure thats been made unavailable to them, they'll change their mind.

A lot of religious, moral voters in that culture, particularly in the South. Poverty is also extant. Yet they look beyond this "moral" issue and find something more compelling in the Democrats--something that wins their vote in astounding numbers. Now ask yourself how that can be, and yet a white person of similar background, religious nature and geography votes differently. The difference is, we've found issues and leaders that inspire those moral african americans to vote Dem even while they disagree with our stance on the GOP's lame moral wedge issues. We just need to find issues and leaders to appeal to those poor moral southerners over the GOP's nonsense, and we will win election after election.

and social conservatives. I am a big social liberal but I always consider my political influences two socially conservative Catholics, my grandparents, who despite being socially conservative taughted me that social justice was important, that is I believe in helping those who don't have as good as life as I do. That's why I am a democrat.

This represents their overall hatred of all things liberal. PETA people who disrupt hunting. The tree-spikers. Stopping 4-wheeling and outdoor recreation. Regulations that make no sense for small towns or small businesses. Like making a school handicapped accessible when you've got no handicapped kids. School requirements where when a kid forgets to take his hunting rifle out of his truck, he has to be expelled. Janet Jackson's boob flying out in the middle of the Super Bowl, it's not the boob, it's that the Super Bowl isn't supposed to be a strip show. All kinds of things. They've got nothing, don't expect to have much of anything, that's the reality of the economic world and they accept it. They DO have their morals and values though, and they would like to keep some sense of their traditional family life. If the rest of this crap could be resolved, if we would have the teensiest sense of when a boob is appropriate and when it's not, then we could easily make inroads on abortion and gays. Because they all have gay family members and friends, truth be told; and they all know some girl who has needed an abortion for whatever reason. But until we respect that their lifestyle is different, not bad, and bridge those gaps; we'll continue to have these culture wars.

The Fundies are working to turn this country into a theocracy
like Afghanistan, except with Talibornagains instead of Taliban.
Look up the Christian Reconstructionists.

When someone starts in about the political ramifications of gay marriage I usually respond with something like this:

Excuse me? Over 2 million kids went to bed last night in a cardboard box, and they were starving. And you want me to care about two dudes holding hands? Get a clue.

I've been more tactful, but that's the basic thing.

We have to give them a compelling choice between bringing themselves and others up or tearing a minority down. Right now, the only compelling option is the bigotry, because we've dropped the ball on articulating our side for their ears.

especially poor pregnant women. we can market it as something that can help prevent abortions. and it has to be focused on pregnant women rather than women with kids since they usually don't care once kids are born.their

the law can include the basic medical care a pregnant women needs. financial support if she doesn't have a job. maybe include something to force corporations to provide something to them.