Attn: Everyone freaked out by L.A. Times nutbag op/ed

This:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2615512

...isn't the first thread I've seen on the subject. And, folks, I understand, as well as anyone, why it's blowing the treads off your tires -- the first time I heard a so-called "Christian" spew such delusional, hate-filled garbage, I was shocked out of my skin.

I'm guessing that this is the first exposure a lot of DUers are getting to the inner working of the Radical Religious Right mindset. On one hand, I'm glad to see a few new people scared to death by this kind of talk, because it means that many more folks have become aware of what's really at the base of *'s "base."

On the other hand, I'm sorry you have to go through this shock, especially this week.

In any case, trust me -- what that particular nutbag wrote is tame.

Now, I don't know whether or not if what I'm posting below is going to have the desired effect -- that is, to illustrate that there is nothing new about this kind of insanity on The Right... and, more importantly, to make you think about some of the ways we might be able to send "normal" Christians into the same state of shock you're experiencing now.

See, I don't believe a full 51% of the nation is that far out to lunch. I think plain, ordinary, God-fearin' conservatives simply do what they're told to do, and think what they're told to think -- and I am convinced that a huge majority is so uninformed, they have no idea that The Big Picture (as envisioned by the movers and shakers in the Reconstructionist movement) is to actually kill us all -- "all" being queers, atheists, feminists, and oh yes, garden-variety liberals.

Think about your stupid cousin who voted for * because "he's a good man, and a Christian." Oh, wait, that was my stupid cousin... but you get the point: Most people in this country aren't evil -- only dangerously ignorant. Do you honestly believe that every * supporter in this country wants to kill us? They may hate gays and pro-choice feminists, but in reality, how many of them really want to stone us to death in the streets (freerepublic notwithstanding)? Most of them are just like my stupid cousin.

So, since we already know that trying to rationalize with them is a wasted effort, how about shocking the shit out of them, and showing them what a theocracy really means? (Without using such big words as "theocracy.")

They say we don't know how to talk to conservatives? Okay, fine, so let's talk to them in language they'll understand.

If we can figure out how to expose the true underpinnings of the Radical Religious Right, in their own forums, we might knock a few idiots into awareness.

Caveat: I do fear that what follows below may do nothing but further depress a lot of people -- so if you don't think you can handle some of the worst hatemongering you'll ever see, stop reading now, and go to the Lounge and look at some nice kitty pictures instead.

That said, here, in no particular order, is a very small sampling (from a massive list of quotes I have been compiling off and on for many years) of the kind of murderously hateful evil that leads the Radical Religous Right.

One more thing: Bear in mind that not all of these wingnuts are the twins of Fred Phelps; we're talking leaders in the Christian Reconstruction movement, and opinion-makers via the "religious" broadcasting that pollutes the airwaves 24/7:


When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed.
-- Randall Terry, Operation Rescue, to doctors who perform abortions, August 8, 1995

We are to make Bible-obeying disciples of anybody that gets in our way.
-- Jay Grimstead, February, 1987

God, we proclaim death to anything or anyone that will lift a hand against this network and this ministry that belongs to You, God. It is Your work, it is Your idea, it is Your property, it is Your airwaves, it is Your world, and we proclaim death to anything that would stand in the way of God's great voice of proclamation to the whole world. In the Name of Jesus, and all the people said Amen!
-- Paul Crouch, Trinity Broadcasting Network, November 7, 1997

Unless we get medically lucky, in three or four years, one of the options discussed will be the extermination of homosexuals.
-- Discredited Christian "researcher" Paul Cameron, 1985 Conservative Political Action Conference

Read the parable of the Wheat and the Tares in Matthew 13:24-30 and you will see that at the end of this age the angels are sent forth to remove evil from the earth. That word 'angels' also means 'messengers.' So God may use some of us to finish up the work of this age.
-- Paul Crouch, Praise the Lord Newsletter, March, 1994

Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism.
-- Randall Terry, Operation Rescue, August 16, 1993

The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant -- baptism and holy communion -- must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel.
-- Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism

Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody's pseudo-right to worship an idol.
-- Rev. Joseph Morecraft, Chalcedon Presbyterian Church, August 31, 1993

Tolerance is the worst roar of all, including tolerance for homosexuals, feminists, and religions that don't follow Christ.
-- Josh McDowell, 1994 Youth for Christ rally

I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good.
-- Randall Terry, Operation Rescue, August 16, 1993

It is the stated goal of orthodox Christianity to preach the gospel of salvation in Christ to the Jews, until not a trace of the traditional practices of Judaism remains.
-- Gary North, Institute for Christian Economics

AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotiers.
-- Jerry Falwell

We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America.
-- Pat Buchanan, campaign address at an anti-gay rally in Des Moines, Iowa, February 11, 1996

Salvi deserves a medal. He's a hero.
-- New Hampshire anti-choice activist Andrew Cabot, referring to to John C. Salvi III, who murdered two and injured five other employees at two Massachusetts abortion clinics in 1994, New Hampshire Sunday News, January 1, 1995

We love you. Thank you for what you have done in the name of Jesus. As long as the deed is done to save innocent babies being put to death, any action to save those babies... is moral and just.
-- Donald Spitz of Pro-Life Virginia, praising convicted abortion-clinic murderer John Salvi, Washington Post, January 2, 1995

We... do officially declare war on the child-killing industry...every pro-life person should commit to destroying at least one death camp or disarming at least one baby killer.
-- Army of God Manual, 70-page manual on methods of killing abortion providers and forcibly closing women's health centers. Kansas City Star, February 25, 1997

If you think abortion is murder, act like it.
-- Randall Terry, Operation Rescue, US News and World Report, January 14, 1994

More violence is inevitable, and it is righteous... It wouldn't bother me if every abortionist in the country today fell dead from a bullet.
-- Charles Roy McMillan, Executive Director, Christian Action Group, Jackson, Mississippi, Time March 27, 1995

It occurs to me: Was Moses arrogant and unbiblical when he instructed the Israelites to kill every Canaanite in the land (Deut. 7:2; 20:16-17)? Was he an elitist or (horror of horrors) a racist? No; he was a God-fearing man who sought to obey God, who commanded them to kill them all.
-- Gary North, The Sinai Strategy: Economics and the Ten Commandments (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1986), p. 214n.

They would have us believe that Islam is just as good as Christianity. Christianity was founded by the virgin-born son of God, Jesus Christ. Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives, the last one of which was a 9-year-old girl.
-- Rev. Jerry Vines, former president of the Southern Baptist Convention (1988-1990), at the 2002 Southern Baptist Convention

If Christian people work together, they can succeed during this decade in winning back control of the institutions that have been taken from them over the past 70 years. Expect confrontations that will be not only unpleasant but at times physically bloody. This decade will not be for the faint of heart, but the resolute. Institutions will be plunged into wrenching change. We will be living through one of the most tumultuous periods of human history. When it is over, I am convinced God's people will emerge victorious.
-- Pat Robertson, Pat Robertson's Perspective, Oct.-Nov. 1992

It is your god-given right to destroy any man or woman calling themselves doctors who willingly slaughter innocent children.
-- Keith Tucci, Executive Director, Opration Rescue

Lesbian love, sodomy are viewed by God as being detestable and abominable.... Civil magistrates are to put people to death who practice these things.
-- Christian radio talk show host Rich Agozino, Crosstalk, KBRT-AM 740

The State carries the power of the sword, that is, the power to prohibit conduct with physical penalties, such as confinement and even execution. It must use that power to prevent the subversion of children toward this lifestyle, to not encourage a criminal lifestyle.
-- Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore

Those who practice homosexuality should swiftly be put to death by the government. God emphatically condemns the practice of exchanging proper gender characteristics among men and women. God justly calls for the death penalty for anyone who practices homosexuality.
-- Citizens for the Ten Commandments

The Bible doesn't say that homosexuals should be executed. What it says is this: "If two men lie together like a man and a woman lie together, they are to be put to death. "
-- Gary DeMar, "Sound Off," WSB, Atlanta, Georgia, January 4, 1991

God told the Israelites to kill them all: men, women and children; to destroy them. And that seems like a terrible thing to do. Is it or isn't it? Well, let us assume that there were two thousand of them or ten thousand of them living in the land, or whatever number, I don't have the exact number, but pick a number. And God said, "Kill them all." Well, that would seem hard, wouldn't it? But that would be 10,000 people who probably would go to hell. But if they stayed and reproduced, in thirty, forty or fifty or sixty or a hundred more years there could conceivably be ... ten thousand would grow to a hundred, a hundred thousand conceivably could grow to a million, and there would be a million people who would have to spend an eternity in Hell! And it is far more merciful to take away a few than to see in the future a hundred years down the road, and say, "Well, I'll have to take away a million people, that will be forever apart from God because the abomination is there." It's like a contagion. God saw that there was no cure for it. It wasn't going to change, and all they would do is cause trouble for the Israelites and pull the Israelites away from God and prevent the truth of God from reaching the earth. And so God in love -- and that was a loving thing -- took away a small number that he might not have to take away a large number.
-- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club

When people curse their parents, it unquestionably is a capital crime. The integrity of the family must be maintained by the threat of death. ... And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.
-- Gary North

Wonderful things were to be seen. Numbers of the Saracens were beheaded ... Others were shot with arrows, or forced to jump from the towers; others were tortured for several days, then burned with flames. In the streets were seen piles of heads and hands and feet. ... It was a just and marvelous judgement of God, that this place should be filled with the blood of unbelievers.
-- Raymond of Aguilers, describing the 1099 massacre of Jerusalem by Christian Crusaders

As a Christian I have hope not just for this life but for Heaven and the life to come. And many of those people who died this past week are in Heaven right now. And they wouldn't want to come back; it's so glorious and so wonderful. And that's the hope for all of us who put our faith in God. I pray that you will have this hope in your heart.
-- Billy Graham, looking at the bright side of 9/11, in his speech at W's National Day of Prayer and Remembrance service at Washington's National Cathedral, September 14, 2001

Mrs. O'Hair died horribly, a victim of the world she helped to shape. Without the Deity she fought so hard against, there is no right and wrong, increasingly people are ruled by their passions and humanity is a tragedy waiting to happen.
-- Christian zealot Bill Murray, condemning the atheism of his mother, Madlyn Murray O'Hair

No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.
-- Then-Vice President and presidential candidate George Herbert Walker Bush, 1988

As a former fundie myself, I really want to add something here, too :

Whatever else these people are, they are not "stupid". They know EXACTLY what they're doing. Their eyes are wide open. They cannot be given the word "stupidity" as an excuse for it.

And I would also object to calling them "Christians". What they practice bears about as much resemblence to real Christianity as did Jim Jones or David Koresh. There's been a lot of talk on progressive boards about "framing" and about how the right wing works to redefine words in order to favor their cause. Their religious factions have been working on this, too, trying to redefine the word "Christian" to mean whatever they want it to mean at the moment, whatever is politically convenient for them. We must stop going along with this. They are misusing and perverting the name of Christianity, and we need to start making an issue of it rather than attacking "Christians" in general for what these false "Christians" are doing in their name. This matters. It matters more than I know how to express in words.


MDN

They are misusing and perverting the name of Christianity, and we need to start making an issue of it rather than attacking "Christians" in general for what these false "Christians" are doing in their name.

While I'm bracing myself for a deluge of replies calling me naive, wildly optimistic, etc., I honestly believe that if we can paint a true picture of what the machine that drives the RRR, the real Christians can wake up.

Talking as we do among ourselves on the Left just doesn't work. That's the lesson we can't quite accept -- it's frustrating, and almost inconceivable that many people refuse to digest anything resembling "analysis," but it's the truth. They get their (mis)information from pre-digested sound bites. That's why far too many never understood Kerry's position on the issues; it was all clear as a bell to me, but I was picturing millions of undecideds glazing over during the debates, snapping to attention only at the sound of one of *'s short, easy-to-remember (and utterly meaningless) buzz phrases.

So the question is how do we get this concept -- that they are being led by the nose by these false Messiahs -- into their awareness?

I would think the best avenue would be their own media, but I am at a loss as to how to begin to accomplish such a thing.

Ideas?

Nadin Brezinski made a *fantastic* post on this subject today, and she put it far better than I can. It's worth quoting in full :

-----

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2613354



(freeper) : You have no morals

(NB) : Well you only care about sex. You only care about Adam and Steve, what happened to thou shall not lie, thou shall not steal, thou shall not kill, thou shall not covet your neighboors wife, which could also be translated to his wordly possesions, and thou shall not put others in front of me? When did these commandments become optional?

(freeper) : But, but

(NB) : You don't care about poverty, that is optional to you, not to Christ. You do not care about lies, Christ would have been horrified. In other words your moral majority only cares about one issue, and you do worship a false god, MONEY (was tempted to say Bush, as some fundies believe him to be the direct representative of god if not worse, which incidentally is heresy).

He just stood there as if I had hit him on the gut, I did not apologize... and I will never apologize anymore.

Then he said, What you think things are going to get worse? You could almost see it in his eyes, what did I do?

(NB) : Yes, because of YOUR MORAL CHOICES, when your only daugheter is DRAFTED... don't cry to me. When you cannot put food on the table, don't cry to me... when you have no health insurance, don't cry to me. You made that moral choice about Adam and Steve, so Adam and Steve will not marry, not that they were going to marry before... but now your only daugher will get a free and all paid vacation to Fallujah... enjoy the hell on earth you have made. Unfortunately I have to live in it... but you are right, Adam and Steve will not marry, victory for you... and you dare call that morality. What is even sadder is... you vote on one issue... not noticing how they are fleecing you... because they covet YOUR wordly possetions and yes, even your daughter.

I think the idea of his only daugher going to war really scared him... you could, no pun intended, see the fear of god in his eyes.



-----

In a nutshell :

Call them out. Loudly. Expose their redefined "Christianity" and "values" for the frauds that they are. Throw down the gauntlet. They want to talk values? Fine, they lose. They want to talk morality? They lose again. Christianity? They're nowhere near it.

The point is : these are discussions WE WANT TO HAVE, because they have absolutely no leg to stand on. We need to be clear on that, and we need to make everyone who hears us clear on that, too.


MDN

The fake xtian plutocrats who love money (the megarich & CEOs who back Bush, as well as Bushco itself) and whose values are "flexible" figured out how to steal from all of us by swaying the segment of the population that cares about values over money.

them to have a lot of money, they will. If not, it's just not God's will. If you believe having a lot of money is God's will, then you can justify almost anything to make money.

I don't know about everyone else, but it came as quite a shock to me to finally realize that job security, healthcare, and good schools don't mean a whole heck of a lot to the "God's will" group.

My first reaction to being admonished by smug, Monday-morning quarterbacks regarding Dems' inability to "talk to" conservatives was anger and disgust, because the message has been that in learning to speak their language, we're expected to capitulate.

Well, screw capitulation.

The point is, you're right, BlueEyedSon. And once I was able to get that difficult-to-comprehend concept through my skull, I looked around and went, "Well, if they don't give a damn about their financial security, OBVIOUSLY I'm missing something even more fundamental to them than survival."

All of a sudden it clicked for me, the moment I saw how horrified a lot of DUers were by that L.A. Times op/ed. I thought, "This many people have never been exposed to this kind of garbage before?"

That's why I think we have something solid to work with in this thread. We don't have to accept that our "moral values" (peace, social programs, etc.) mean nothing to them -- we have only to understand that that's the case, and re-work our strategy within those confines.

Wasn't it Elmer Fudd who said, if you're going to catch a wabbit, you have to think like a wabbit?

so many of the real Christians out there are heavy on the denial. They think that such hateful attitude is in a tiny, tiny minority. One would have to search far and wide to find such hateful monsters as far as many are concerned.

They would rather not see the monsters that spring from their religion. Selective vision, it makes life much more pleasant.

Julie

...we catch as many as we can. That's why they use shotguns in duck-hunting.

The day the you and your brethren forcibly and publicly expel them from your ranks...will be the day I will agree they are not Christians....until then the mark of Cain is upon you all.

Bush is the Anti-Christ.

Sounds to me like you and the rest of the "real" Christians have some work ahead of you. It is not MY job to define Christianity for Christians....it's yours. Don't tell me what a "True" Christian is....tell your fellow Christians.

RC

I am an ex-Christian (ex-fundamentalist-Christian, to be exact) who still believes that the teachings of Jesus have some good things to offer. That aside, I also know from direct experience that most of these ultra-right-wing so-called "Christians" wouldn't know real Christianity if it walked up and bit them on the ass.


MDN

Can I ask why you no longer choose to refer to yourself as a Christian?

RC

RapidCreek wrote:

Can I ask why you no longer choose to refer to yourself as a Christian?

Honestly? It's because I simply don't believe that religion's teachings are true. I still think Jesus' teachings are in many ways a good example to follow, and I think the world would be a better place if more people actually did follow them -- particularly many who falsely claim to be "Christians" -- but the "God" and the general theology described by that religion is still simply not true, so it pretty much ends there for me.


MDN

...that, like Mike, I, too, was a near 'fundamentalist' Christian in my early life. My grandmother on my father's side would have me in church almost every time the doors opened. It took me getting out of my tiny home town of Olla, La. - by going off to college - to eventually start opening my eyes to the fact that just because someone doesn't believe the EXACT same way as I do, they are NOT necessarily an EVIL person. Today, I would best be described as a DEVOUT ATHEIST; that is, one who does not believe that there is some big, bearded guy sitting on a throne somewhere up in the sky, just waiting on me to 'fuck up' one too many times, so he can gleefully cast me into eternal damnation for not 'grovelling' enough at his feet. Today, I like to think that 'most' people are OK, and just want to 'get along' with their fellow human beings, and if they from time to time need a helping hand, well, I'll try my best to give that comfort and reassurance, because it could be ME needing the helping hand, later. And yeah, the historical Jesus was probably a very good man and a very fine teacher and philosopher, whose teachings, for the most part, are a pretty good set of guidelines to live by. BUT, and, as Monty Python would say, this is a very big 'But', I truly believe that if Jesus Christ were to return to the Earth today, and someone would take him to one of these 'good-ole-boy' Southern Baptist Churches, and let him hear what was being preached about, IN HIS NAME, he would probably just sigh, hang his head, and turn and walk slowly out of the door, shaking his head from side to side.

and your welcome for the courteous response....It's seldom I'm refered to as courteous here on du :) and I guess for the most part I'm not.

Ah well, I gotta be me!

RC

besides Christians. A Christian is a follower of the example and teachings of Christ. These people have overlooked him altogether. For those of us who do believe in what he taught and consider ourselves Christian, please for the the love of God, Goddess, Buddha, whoever, call these people something else!

I studied the bible in a non-denom Christian fellowship for 5 years in the 80's and trust me, these people are not drawing the message they have been given. I spend alot of time with these people because of where I live and trust me that they have been totally mislead by the likes of those Sapphocrat has quoted above.

If they truly believe then they would understand that God gave man free will to choose as he pleases. Even from the story of Adam and Eve.

I have countered them every chance I get with Christ's teachings that to love your neighbor is second only to loving God and they both go hand in hand and he put no qualifying statement on that, it means everyone regardless. I tell them that by their hate and condemnation they are the other side of the same ugly coin that bears the image of Bin Laden on the other side.

Today I will be standing on a corner with numerous other peace activists. Some of us are Christians, some atheists, some not sure, some are straight and others are gay but we will stand as we always do together with signs that say "War is a moral issue" "Hunger is a moral issue" "Poverty is a moral issue" "Faith depends upon free will" and so many others. We are confronting these people in this heavily religious right wing town.

Christians do not think or believe what these nutjobs in the original message are saying, so please call them something else!!

They follow the dogma of the AntiChrist The High Priest of Amerika Tiberius Bush*.

It is as accurate a name as I can think of for them,as the Middle Ages prepare for a second go-round.

http://www.yuricareport.com/

In particular, if you haven't already, read "The Despoiling of America": http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

I saw this on another thread, and I'm pushing this meme for all it's worth.

Just to bring closure and no ambiguity:

Christian In Name Only

Christians In Name Only. Perhaps if we use the acronym enough, it will start coming automatically to us -- and who knows, it may spread beyond DU, as have DINO and RINO.

Question for you, hippywife...

I have countered them every chance I get with Christ's teachings that to love your neighbor is second only to loving God and they both go hand in hand and he put no qualifying statement on that, it means everyone regardless. I tell them that by their hate and condemnation they are the other side of the same ugly coin that bears the image of Bin Laden on the other side.

What's their reaction been, generally? If you could offer an anecdote or two (where your efforts have been successful, and not), it might help the rest of us form/hone our own methods of approach.

My success rate in speaking truth to blindness is about 50%. Best win: My born-again, soccer-mom cousin in Idaho, about whom I've ranted and raved here, and who, after years of endless attempts on my part, finally "got it"... and voted Kerry. (The whole ordeal has been extremely frustrating for both of us, but I'm happy to report that we've become closer through this turmoil than we ever were as kids.)

Most dismal failure: My super-rich, ultra-Catholic, eldest cousin, who simply delights in dismissing all truth, and especially in taunting me with, "I'll bring you around eventually." (Would you believe this jerk had the nerve to start an attack on my politics while standing over my mother's bed in ICU? I kid you not. Some people have NO shame.)

The funny thing is, I have a better handle on how to deal with born-agains than I do with blinded-by-the-right Catholics (and I was born & raised and am still "culturally" Catholic)!

that these people are not Christians. Anybody who believes Jesus was God and worships the triune deity is a Christian. They aren't acting with a great deal of mercy or humility, no, but they worship that deity.

To 'worship' is one thing, to BE A CHRISTIAN (that is, someone who LIVES by Christ's principals of truth, love and forgiveness) is quite another thing.

I won't even grant them 'worship'. If truth be known, they 'worship' WHATEVER JUSTIFIES THEIR OWN HATRED. All the rest of it they completely ignore. Jesus warned about such people: They see the mote in everyone else's eyes but not the BEAM that is in their own.

but I fear we may have to agree to disagree. My POV (as an ex-Roman Catholic) is that anyone who holds as an article of religious faith that Jesus was/is divine and is their deity of worship is a Christian. But that's me; I totally understand where you are coming from.

"They are misusing and perverting the name of Christianity, and we need to start making an issue of it rather than attacking "Christians" in general for what these false "Christians" are doing in their name. This matters. It matters more than I know how to express in words."

This is so important, so important. I too, have difficulty expressing this in words and don't know how to convey this to people. Talking to Republicans, they see this faster than Dems, and I don't understand why. The dissidents and drop outs in the evangelical movement, and the small but important segment of dissidents within the Republican party are being abandoned by Dems who are more interested in pushing partisanship than saving our democracy and our freedom. We must address the fascism in the church and the Republican party WITHOUT attacking all Christians and all Republicans. We are taking the oxygen out of the room for dissidents on the other side.

On edit - we CANNOT turn millions of people away from Christianity. We CANNOT turn them all away from the Republican party. But we CAN - and MUST - turn them away from fascism.

but not surprised. Growing up in Texas in the late 80's put me right in the middle of a lot of this crap. Just listen to Hagee sometime. Blech.

I did a report on Operation Rescue and the Christian Coalition in high school and found a book that reprinted a memo from one of those org's regarding taking over city governments as the first step in taking back the country. The main point of the memo was to make sure no one revealed their ultimate agenda, get elected first, then make the changes for the cause as soon as possible. Then, of course, move up thru the ranks and keep getting elected no matter what.

Now we have bushCo. in power 15 years later.

Wish I could find that paper or at least the bibliography for that source.

WHO is in the White House, these people are so obviously crazy that no one will allow their ideology to become the law of the land. That said, I do feel we are gonna have a big fight on abortion, school prayer, evolution/creationism, and school vouchers. These four areas are where they are going to strike first, and we gotta be ready for them. We gotta fight to keep ultra right nominees off the Supreme Court. That's the battleground, and we can't let them defeat us there. We still have an unbreakable filibuster power in the Senate, and we have to be prepared to use it and use it with strength and stamina.

They are obviously crazy (very smart, but very crazy), and this is not going to become a Levitical theocracy overnight.

What we have lost in this election is bitter, beyond words, but we're not looking at state-sanctioned death-by-stoning for quite a while yet. I still trust in America -- if I thought the RRR freaks were actually representative of the whole, I'd be in an underground bunker right now, waiting for their "Rapture" to be over with.

The thing is, there needn't be any genuine danger in their words -- yet. But these are the crazies responsible for leading a lot of otherwise sane believers down the garden path. Trickle-down economics is a bust, but the trickle-down theory works all too well among the churches. But your average Baptist family in Bucksnort, Tennessee only gets the filtered version -- "gays will bring down society, and if you don't stop them, Jesus will hate you, so vote for *!"

If they can be made to see the origins of what they take to be the "Gospel truth," most of them would be horrified out of their socks. And, while that may not prevent them from ever voting Repuke again, it may start enough of a backlash that the most radical factions of the GOP would be (to borrow Grover Norquist's vision of the Dems) neutered.

But these are the crazies responsible for leading a lot of otherwise sane believers down the garden path.

...maybe we should begin calling them exactly what they are, a CULT!

Sorry, just my two cents worth.

...call them cults, and they are. The only difference between these wackos and People's Temple and Heaven's Gate is that Jim Jones and Bo and Peep convinced their followers to kill themselves instead of somebody else.

Actually, I liken these whackjobs to Charlie Manson & Co. The similarities are truly stunning.

The trick is to refrain from calling them cults to their faces.

These people aren't Christians at all. Even Jesus didn't want governement and religion to mix.

"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to God what is God's"
-Jesus

These people are nuts.

Quoting the Bible back to them. I don't even bother with the "clobber passages" they use against us (e.g., Sodom & Gommorah), because their attention span isn't that long. It's Jesus' short, snappy admonishments (holy sound bites - LOL) that have the biggest impact.

Seriously, JC would have done just great in the media today. Sharp wit, uncompromising integrity and an unparallelled ability to put a hyocrite in his place with a well placed line.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I love Jesus. I have serious problems with people who think they are his followers.

If Clinton had had any REAL balls, he would have called a press conference, walked out with a milk crate full of stones, stepped in front of the podium, dropped it and glared at the gathered media for a full minute, then walked off without saying a word.

I remember when the election results were basically over. As I was looking on TV and as I was reading other websites where quite a few dems/repubs all post together...and in the area talking to them directly...a LOT of them had a weird reaction. It was almost like they didn't believe it. They thought Bush was cooked. They weren't really ENTHUSIASTIC about a vote for him...but they voted anyway.

I can't say any of them thought fraud took place (though I'm guessing a few at least had that thought cross their minds in light of 2000 election where they doth protest to much)

Well, anyway...my point is not all Republicans are like this sector of society just described above. I want to ask that we don't immediately label someone as evil because they did what they have always done--support the GOP candidate.

We need to differentiate between the relatively small and previously marginalized religious fascists who are the most outspoken right now...and the straight fiscal conservative Republicans that have been around for years and years.

Heck, some of these moderates may well be interested in hearing info pointing out corruption in the voting process. If it can effect general election, it can also subvert their own primaries process where they will see increasingly hard line nutjobs beat business-minded moderate republicans.

This is a time to peel off some of their moderate base and bring them into our fold. Do some of those folks REALLY want to associate themselves with this holy roller? I doubt it.

Just something to think about as we go forward and do what we can to expose these e-voting machines and push the necessary corrections through Congress and into reality.

...the uncharacteristically subdued tone of many RWers, both in the media, and in meatspace. I still haven't quite figured out why every Repuke relative I have wasn't immediately in my face with the gloating.

my point is not all Republicans are like this sector of society just described above. I want to ask that we don't immediately label someone as evil because they did what they have always done--support the GOP candidate.

We need to differentiate between the relatively small and previously marginalized religious fascists who are the most outspoken right now...and the straight fiscal conservative Republicans that have been around for years and years.

That's the idea. If they can finally see past that beatific facade to the rotten core of religious extremism in this country, there are enough of them (yes, I'm thinking especially of the traditional, fiscal conservatives, too) who will want to distance themselves so fast, it will be the GOP left in the dust and forced to rebuild.

No, I'm not talking about starting a party war either (or advocating the destruction of the GOP, the way they want to destroy us). But had the average American traditional conservative been aware of this folie en masse when these nutjobs first got their claws into the party, the GOP would be a very different animal today.

And just think, the word "bipartisanship" wouldn't sound like a joke right now.

Got a lot of friends marinated in that shit. Real friends, lifelong. They're essentially good... no, they're uncommonly good people, will readily share their homes and table with hardluck strangers. If it weren't for some of them, I'd have been dead long ago.

Yet, underneath... there's that ugliness. Now, they wouldn't dream of acting so vile as the assclowns above, but when confronted with that shit, they won't disavow it -- "it's harsh, but what can you do, it's truth." A biblical proscription is a biblical proscription.

It's boggling.

I don't know if shoving more of that stuff in their face would make a difference.

However, I'm all for keeping this stuff in the public's eye. I want the apocalyptic asswipes to be the Face of the Republican party. I think this election's elevation of fundies to the position of dealbreakers and kingmakers in the party is a good thing. And the more agitated and outrageous they get, the better. Republicans climbed into bed with these loons, it's way past time that they regretted it.

that basically we gotta figure out the best calculus on this. Keeping the VALUES people out front and center may very well be a way to get the ball rolling that ultimately flattens them.

It's weird. THis badness started when some religious leaders took Christ's teachings and twisted them to fit some egomaniacal, greedy purpose. Then the wider group of Christian denominations bought into it. THen they got politically organized and active. Now the Republican party is taken over by them. And now they are trying to take over the whole country's dialogue and direction.

It would be something to read more and more reports out of European news agencies commenting on these nutcases similar to how an AP or CBS or NYTimes guy might go write a long form piece on the whacked Taliban or the earlier fascination with Ayatollah Komeini and that brand of arch conservative Islam. THese folks should be treated like the National Geographic oddity they are.

...who throw up their hands and say, "Well, God's will is God's will." You're right -- I doubt stuff like this would have much effect at all.

On the other hand, there are HUGE numbers of self-identified Christians (born-agains, too) who weren't steeped in this filth from an impressionable age. Think of the number of Catholics in the U.S.; while I know the abortion issue sent millions of them dashing to the polls for *, exposure to this sort of extremism would be a very rude awakening for many.

I complain a lot about how cruel the nuns were to us, but the actual catechism is gentle compared to the fire-and-brimstone used to terrify, say, little Southern Baptist kids. (I think it's safe to assume my experience with Catholicism wasn't an anomaly.)

And Catholics are just one denomination. Sometimes when I start to think that every church in America is being held hostage by wild-eyed fundies, I just think about the Protestants I have known... and it is impossible to conceive of your average Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, First Covenant, etc., etc., being anything less than utterly horrified by this brand of hate.

(Mormons are a tough call, what with their "blood atonement" thing.)

Anyway, I'm guessing the number of sane, normal Christians who voted for * because "he's a good man and a Christian" outnumber the total-loss brainwashing cases.

And, I'm with you -- I'm ALWAYS up for keeping the most radical factions of the Right out in public, where everyone can see them. That's why I was disappointed to see Trent Lott go -- he was a magnificent poster boy for the GOP!

charlie wrote:

However, I'm all for keeping this stuff in the public's eye. I want the apocalyptic asswipes to be the Face of the Republican party. I think this election's elevation of fundies to the position of dealbreakers and kingmakers in the party is a good thing. And the more agitated and outrageous they get, the better. Republicans climbed into bed with these loons, it's way past time that they regretted it.

This is exactly the tactic the Republicans have excelled at over the last 30 years. They deliberately pick calculated fights with the most "unmarketable" elements of their opponents' camp, in order to provoke visible reactions that will "scare off" the voters they want to recruit to the GOP. They do it over and over and over again, and progressives just keep falling for it. We need to wise up to this tactic, and start using it against them instead.

Call it "The Art of Picking a Fight". We need to learn it. Fast.

The real whack-jobs on the "religious" right are a great place to start. Find some seemingly innocuous cause that sets them off, then push it. The more insane they get, the more we spotlight them. Then do it again. And again. And again. No retreat, no surrender, no mercy.


MDN

Has anyone actually taken the time to trace out the funding networks behind the emergence of this newly-redefined, uber-right-wing "Christianity"? I'm talking from probably the early-to-mid-70's onward, but maybe before that (my experience with it only goes back so far, thankfully). I keep thinking that the money would tell a really interesting tale, but I've never seen any real effort to trace it out.

Anyone know of anything?


MDN

Me, I've been keeping track of all the best links I have, but others have attempted to trace the entire fundie-money trail. I don't think it's ever been accomplished in full, as it is THE most convoluted network one could ever imagine. (Counting brain cells would be a simpler task.)

However, if I had to pick just one organization as the nerve center of the entire cabal, it would be the Council for National Policy:

Club of the Most Powerful Gathers in Strictest Privacy
New York Times, August 28, 2004

Three times a year for 23 years, a little-known club of a few hundred of the most powerful conservatives in the country have met behind closed doors at undisclosed locations for a confidential conference, the Council for National Policy, to strategize about how to turn the country to the right.

Details are closely guarded.

"The media should not know when or where we meet or who takes part in our programs, before of after a meeting," a list of rules obtained by The New York Times advises the attendees. ...

Mr. Bush addressed the group in fall 1999 to solicit support for his campaign, stirring a dispute when news of his speech leaked and Democrats demanded he release a tape recording. He did not. ...

The secrecy that surrounds the meeting and attendees like the Rev. Jerry Falwell, Phyllis Schlafly and the head of the National Rifle Association, among others, makes it a subject of suspicion, at least in the minds of the few liberals aware of it.

"The real crux of this is that these are the genuine leaders of the Republican Party, but they certainly aren't going to be visible on television next week," Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said. ...

Worth reading:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/28/politics/campaign/28conserve.html

This one's very helpful in connecting the dots:

THE COUNCIL FOR NATIONAL POLICY (CNP)

When the Rev. Tim LaHaye founded CNP, he enlisted the help of several Texas billionaires. Today, LaHaye is the co-author of a series of popular books about the "end-times" and the Second Coming of Christ. He was also a co-founder of the Moral Majority. In the 1980s he headed the American Coalition for Traditional Values. While heading that group, LaHaye said, "If every Bible-believing, Christ-loving church would trust God to raise up an average of just one person over the next 10 years who would get elected, we would have more Christian candidates than there are offices."

LaHaye's wife, Beverly, founded Concerned Women for America, a politically active group claiming 600,000 fundamentalist women as members. Tim and Beverly LaHaye met while attending Bob Jones University. ...

While all the members of the CNP are not Christian fundamentalists, they are hostile to church/state separation and work toward implementing an ultraconservative agenda. Its secretive membership boasts antiabortion activists, gun rights proponents, religious crusaders, anti-tax advocates, financiers, politicians, and political organizers. The CNP has more than 500 members, who were admitted by invitation-only, including senators, congressmen, and leaders of almost every national radical-right group.

Among the membership are Christian Coalition president Pat Robertson; political strategist Ralph Reed; Sen. Jesse Helms of North Carolina; Congressmen Dick Armey and Tom Delay of Texas; the Conservative Caucus' Howard Phillip; Gun Owners of America head Larry Pratt; radio talk show host Oliver North; direct mail wizard Richard Viguerie; Texas billionaire Nelson Bunker Hunt; Amway Corporation founder Richard DeVos; Focus on the Family head James Dobson; recent presidential candidate Gary Bauer, and the founder of the American Family Association, Rev Donald Wildmon. These are the cream of the Religious Right. ...

Link:
http://www.tylwythteg.com/enemies/Bush/bush9.html

From there, I would go to this site, which includes an old, but hard-to-find member roster:

http://www.buildingequality.us/ifas/cnp/index.html

Once you start cross-checking names and organizations, you'll probably start to feel sick to your stomach to see how inextricably entertwined are the Radical Religious Right and the GOP.

That's where I would begin if I were going to attempt a definitive "family tree."

And, considering the stakes, it may be well worth the trememdous amount of research required to do just that.

On edit: Almost forgot -- this is the most wonderful source of 2004 campaign-donation records on the Web:

http://www.fundrace.org/neighbors.php

Nothing new or insightful in my comments, but to me the ideology of the Christian Right has always been based on fear, just as are bigotry, prejudice and intolerance. Because it represents all of these things, all equally alien to true Christianity and Enlightenment, as dangerous as it may seem, I feel certain that such incogitancy will never be fully woven into the fabric of our Constitution.

Fear of thinking for oneself, fear of that which one has never taken the trouble to understand, fear that perhaps one is *not* chosen or superior to others, fear of the unknown and a nagging suspicion of being unable to respond to it should the need arise, are totally responsible for GWB's re-election.

Just my opinion.

this is exactly what might split the republican party in half. They always needed their vote but they only throws cookie crumbs to keep them hungry. If they feel powerful now , and they probably do, they are going to make W jump through hoops for them. If he does he will lose the more northern republicans, who bankroll that party, and the separation of church and state folks.

Even Rove can't stop this runaway train. I might enjoy this stress within their own party. The need their vote , now they get to lie down with them.

As a child I was very shy and as a result I did not make friends easily. As a consequence I was ostracized during grade school and junior high. There was a core group that would torment me no matter what. Everyone else would be nice to me if I was able to provide a skill that helped them look good. For example in grade school we had field day, which was a series of athletic contests. I excelled in the 600 yard run so they would want me then because I could do something they could not.

What I am getting at is that there is a core group that will never be convinced. Most of the red staters who went for Bush are subconsciously happy that gays and other liberals are being ostracized and not them. It boils down to convincing them that if one group is picked on any group can be picked on.

As long as one shat-upon group (crazy CINOs) can stay even just one step above any other group (gays) on the steaming dung pile of society, they'll believe and do anything, even abandoning all true morality, to maintain their place. Sometimes the motivation is sheer pack mentality, and sometimes it just makes them feel like "better" people.

What I am getting at is that there is a core group that will never be convinced. Most of the red staters who went for Bush are subconsciously happy that gays and other liberals are being ostracized and not them. It boils down to convincing them that if one group is picked on any group can be picked on.

True, there is a core group that will never be convinced. But I don't think the rest of them are so easily persuaded by the "First they came for the Communists" train of thought. The one thing CINOs have in common with Catholics is the glory of martyrdom; feeling persecuted is a good thing to them, as it indicates a higher place in heavenly society. (I am trying desperately to keep my eyes from rolling right out of my skull as I type this, but that's the way they think.)

So trying to make them understand that they may be on the list of groups to be persecuted/eliminated won't work with a lot of them -- that's a worldly concern.

But if we can make them see that they are directly supporting people and ideas which go directly against their core beliefs, then we stand a chance.

I can attest to the facts of everyone's assessment of this "movement".

I've seen many people who fit into this frenzied category of conservative Christians. I watched it growing up. Geez, my family used to drag us around to "tent revivals" in the 50's and early 60's...WOW was THAT ever HEAVY DRAMA

Speaking in tongues, rolling on the floor, jumping from chair to chair, (no snakes, thank goodness)"healing" crusades: SIGNS AND WONDERS etc... FAKE miracles, and hells fire and brimstone.

In the sixties we saw the:"JESUS FREAKS" which led to an upsurge in Charismaticism in a lot of churches. That was the beginning of the end of ordinary, Christ centered church doctrine, IMO

Eventually, my family moved into a "tamer" version of Pentecostalism: Assemblies of God (Ashcroft anyone?) *gag* It's the same message only "whitewashed". Women wear pants to church now, they play upbeat rock christian music to ENTICE the young. And who can forget the upstart world wide PROMISE KEEPERS.....all the same messages but with a slightly more alluring face. They don't come right out and say the things that are mentioned in your article, but they secretly believe the dogma is correct. They don't come right out and "condone" clinic bombings, but they send their women out onto street corners with signs: Honk if you are pro-life.

Pentecostal/charismatics have reached out to Charismatic Catholics and joined hands with Baptists and other sects now. They've become ecumenical. Why? Because "something" or someone is telling them they NEED to do this!

Remember back when all the different denominations and sects FOUGHT each other? Protestants against Catholics and vis versa, Baptists against Pentecostals, "True Christians" against Mormons and JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES..each calling the other doctrinally incorrect or, worse yet, CULTS. Today, they all seem to be merging into one. Way too much power in that.

I don't mean to say that EVERY single person in these congregations has a dark heart like this or even KNOWS what goes on behind the scenes at District HQ's; but the infiltration by this dominionist/reconstructionist movement is almost complete in these churches/alliances.

I said before that I should be among the few that try to go back to the duped folks and try to show old church friends how they have been led astray. I haven't even started to do that yet. I'm so appalled by the Church at this point, I can hardly drive by one. Maybe the time will come when I can approach this task with strength and love.

There are so many great sites on the web where one can find out more information on this insane movement. This is only one:
http://www.yuricareport.com

Who woulda thunk it would all come to this. :(

I largely kept my trap shut, but when Orwellianism, Medevalism (Fundamentalism of all stripes and the merger of Church and State), and the Greatest Proaganda machine and Lie Laundry in human history come together, what else can the Enlightenment and freedom do but expire quietly?

There is deep within us all the Nazi, the desire to strike back at The Other.

These feelings were deliberately unleashed by what I like to call Goebbels v2.0 (the Bushevik Propaganda Machine and all the rest of their multi-pronged offensive against Liberty and Rationality), which used religion deeply just like v1.0.

Combine that with a 30-year effort to, as Vonnegut put it "disconnect the burglar alarms from the Constitution", a functional Constitution and a majority of people who believe in it being the only thing that keeps us from returning to pre-Enlightenment Medevalism, and you have your success.

Then, program your Zealots to believe they are fighting evil which allows them to break any law or ethics "in the service of a greater good or God" and you are ready to take over.

It was bound to happen, and I don't think Anerica will ever be free again.

Now, we wait for a whole truckful of Other Shoes to drop, including Bush Employee (or perhaps merely close personal business associate) Bin Laden, who's pro-Bush Campaign Commercial may have helped cement the "win", to attack us again.

Then his employer/business-associate Bush* can begin Phase 2 of the Reconstruction.

And May God have mercy on our souls.

Thank you more than I can convey for putting this together. I'm sending this puppy to some folks who REALLY need to read it. :thumbsup:

According to the serious Christian Reconstructionists. All those whose church services you find tasteless (they reflect African American influence) may not necessarily hold the same political beliefs. The Reconstructionists also mistrust the ecumenicism of the charismatics--coming from old super-conservative Presbyterian roots, the Recons despise the Catholics above all. Mormons are also heretics, by the way.

There is no unified Christian Right, although they may have worked together in this election (with hacker help to be detailed later). The Catholic bishops & priests who chose to emphasize anti-abortion instead of all the Church teachings that Bush insults should realize that they represent the Whore of Babylon, the Scarlet Woman. All the charismatics & all the Mormons will be given a chance to convert from their errant ways. Most of our neighborhood Fundamentalists are not as extreme as the Recons. Recent research on Recon sites has revealed, for example, the command to abolish all Popish/Pagan holidays; will the 1st Baptist Church of Houston cancel its Christmas extravaganza this year?

All these groups plus the Republicans who voted for non-"moral" reasons awoke in the same bed the morning after Election Day. Let's hope some are feeling regrets. Some may be trying to chew their leg off as we speak. (Old coyote joke there.)

If we can find a way to show Pentecostals, Mormons, etc., how much the Reconstructionists hate them, and what the Ultimate Plan is for them, and why, then there's your answer. They may not care about the "Ultimate Plan" so much (see my post about the "glory of martyrdom"), but NO Christian, CINO or otherwise, will stand for "My God is better than your God."

Btw, you wouldn't believe the number of Catholics who reel in disbelief at, for example, the Seventh-Day Adventist proclamation that the Pope is the antichrist. "But we're ALL Christians!" cry the Catholics. And these are generally smart Catholics -- they just don't get it yet.

in context with the bush administration buying up anthrax antidotes, it gives way to frightening imagination.

over the years as a atheist/humanist

It's probably easier for me than it is for those who are believers to debate these . The most interesting debates I had with a Baptist minister who I admired very much for his intelligence and respect shown toward me. He is dead now, but I loved that guy.

Atheists are used to it already. The quotes above did not shock me. I have read them for years and pretty much know the background of all of those and more.

I sympathize with the plight of those sincere persons who are witnessing their core Christians beliefs being hijacked, especially when a president is one of them and does not hesitate to promote what is causing you this pain.

Some thing I have noticed though. It may make you feel better, but one of the things that is a consistent part of the rhetoric of the literalist extremists is that they say often they are the "real" Christians. So when I read some here adn other places say in their own defense, they are the "real" Christians it is a mirror on what those "other" Christians are saying and ends up a trivial squabble. You are all Christians and that fact cannot be denied. The history of Christianity is full of these squabbles, indeed the country was landed by religious refugees caught up in one of them and then they almost immediately reverted back to the same thing that they fled--persecution of others not like them--not "real" Christians. Unless you want to go and start a new zion somewhere else perhaps a reading of the history would be beneficial to try and work it through for yourself would help get you over this outrage and the sullying of your faith and beliefs. For every quote in the bible that would prove who is the most pious or who is more privvy to the truth, there is an equal verse/quote that would refute that so it is a waste of time to get into a chapter and verse tug of war with them.

There are laws in this country that would protect you and I don't believe ever that we would return to stoning a woman who committed adultry, or that, in the most extreme I have read, kill our sons if they transgressed. This movement may be at it's peak, to fade out (only to return another time) and I think it will self destruct. I think that as other conditions in the country and the world, change, so the extremeism will change. I also think that an education is very very important in helping people become more astute and aware thinkers in order to begin to doubt what they have been taught and doubt is not bad. That is another thing that is shunned by the literalists -- education is scoffed at-almost forbidden as a sin-the reason is obvious.

Hang in there--you have each other.

It has been a HARD, heartbreaking lesson to learn, crushing even--like the death of a cherished child, but I no longer believe in christianity as it has been taught to me; as it has been passed down to us. I think we've been punked.

Did a bit of research and found some astounding facts that brought me to this conclusion. I'm not ready to write off a Higher power yet..it's just too painful. Baby steps.

One other thing you might have added in your piece is the "churches" age old conflict with
the SCIENCES(unless it's something that benefits them). That is a huge core paranoia from the beginning of the "faith".

In general terms, I see that civilizations have always come together in some form of "community/spiritual community" in order to survive. I have no problem with that. There are merits in this type of grouping together to support one another. Modern, "Organized religion" is another thing especially in it's present, frenzied incarnation.

Nuff said...

that keeps track of right wing christian immoral activity.
mike niendorff{sp?} is on the right track -- but we need to gather evidence to present to whom ever will accept it and look at it and spread it.
rove uses right wing christians as a political tool -- take it away from him -- well not just rove.
right wing christians steal from their churches, abuse children, conduct character assasinations, etc -- keep track of them and publicize them -- go after them tooth and nail!

kick

They don't want your land, they want to take over your mind and make your future conform to their ugly little desires.

I love how Bill Murray even condemns his own Mother.
They seem to want to kill, kill, kill and kill some more.

:scared:

If you doubt this, read "Ralph's Gift" over at DailyKos. It turns out that Repug leaders are rather ticked-off at Ralph Reed for hogging credit for the outcome of the election on behalf of "moral values" fundamentalists.

First of all, they're convinced that the fundies really only had a small part to play, and that their grabbing of credit prevents the G.O.P. establishment from doing what it wants to do: claim that Bush really won because of popular support for his economic, war on terror, and Iraq policies. :crazy:

Second, because it gives a false (in their opinion) impression that the party is controlled by religious nutcases who want to impose the fundamentalist version of Christianity on everyone else by force -- which is an impression which they are concerned will hurt them with voters down the road.

So, since they're trying so hard to distance themselves from the religious reich, you know what we need to do...tie them even closer! :evilgrin:

Seriously, make a point of taking Ralph Reed at face value, and spread the narrative that the reason we lost was because of this huge "hidden base" of fundamentalist votes that came out of the woodwork to stop gay marriage. Then go further and point out that this same fundie army, now emboldened by how they won the election for Bush, are now pushing to remake the country as a "Christian nation." Give examples such as appear above, and make it sound like the Republicans are completely under the control of Christian Reconstructionists, who are well on their way to imposing their agenda. Because, however large a percentage of the electorate fundies now are, there's a much, much larger percentage that, while willing to let the religious right live and let live, has no desire to live in a country controlled by said fundies, and hasn't really thought about the possibility until now. By the time the next election comes around, particularly if the fundies have been successful in demanding concessions from the administration so that it looks like they are, in fact, on their way to taking over, we may well find that the "moral values takeover" of 2004 has bred a much, much stronger backlash that will sweep this year's winners off the political map.

that documents every crime, immoral activity, theft,etc. that these right wing religious -- shit right wing? all churches commit.
i'm in the episcopal church -- but any church now is fair game.
these actions -- which are as bad as any other human institution needs to be shown.
let's get it out there.

Conservative Babylon: Sex and the Not-So-Single Republican

Intro:
http://blogs.salon.com/0002551/2003/12/08.html#a515

Part 1:
http://blogs.salon.com/0002551/2003/12/08.html

(I've already moved the entire piece over to the new www.GoQueer.com site I'm almost ready to re-launch, where it will be much easier to read.)

I have a lot of material ready for the next installment (which I never got around to doing), which exposes Radical Religious Right sex scandals.

And this wonderful page still sends me 300, 400, 500 hits a day:

Republican family values sex criminals
http://www.johnjemerson.com/zizka.sex.htm

Also, TrogL has a GREAT site exposing the RRR. (TrogL, what's the link? I don't have it in front of me at the moment!)

will get cocky and start showing their true colors to the American people.

I'm from Kansas and IMHO that ugly hatefilled mockery of a human Fred Phelps has done more to generate sympathy for the gay community then all us liberals put together.

I hear Kansas is considering putting a gay marriage ban on the ballot as the Republicans picked up a few more seats in the state legislature. I seriously believe that if Fred Phelps gets out and campaigns for it, it would lose. Fred Phelps is the face of the Radical Right and sometimes I think the more people who see it the better. He is HORRIFYING and most sane people are horrified by him and his hate filled obession.

specifically mention one in your post?

Msongs
Riverside CA

2005 Beatles calendars are here
www.msongs.com/gallery_three.htm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2615512&mesg_id=2615512


MDN

Re-kicking so this thread doesn't land in the archives while I read and respond!

:kick: :kick: :kick:

I mean't what I said. I canceled my subscription this morning. I know this hateful rhetoric is out there, but in the LA Times!?
Two disappointments in one week was just too much.

nothing more, nothing less.

They are just as dangerous

i'm saving this and passing this along to everyone i know. :kick:

Note: Paul Couch was all over the tabloids a few weeks ago. He was having sex with a MALE African American that worked for his church.
He tried to pay him off but the Brother demanded more money.

Another moral values bigot bits the dust.

http://www.tbn.org/

********************************************************************

God, we proclaim death to anything or anyone that will lift a hand against this network and this ministry that belongs to You, God. It is Your work, it is Your idea, it is Your property, it is Your airwaves, it is Your world, and we proclaim death to anything that would stand in the way of God's great voice of proclamation to the whole world. In the Name of Jesus, and all the people said Amen!
-- Paul Crouch, Trinity Broadcasting Network, November 7, 1997

So it doesn't sink into the archives before Sapph can respond to it. Plus, it is just such an important thread, that we need to keep this one active for a bit.

:kick:

i'm not computer savvy at all -- but if someone could create a page -- a website -- a room here that documents every crime, theft, child abuse, nut job remarks that indicate intent -- and get this stuff publisized it really could help.
the church as an institution -- whether liberal or conservative is subject to the same crimes as any other.
the point is to shake and shape the publics view about who and what holds the moral high ground.

:kick:

Because my mother, a nice Mormon lady who doesn't like any of those people except for GHWB and most people would say is reasonable, would find a way to justify or something to agree with in every single one of those comments. And I wouldn't expect any of the Mormons I have ever known to stand up against the kinds of things being advocated.

I'm not trying to single out Mormons. I know there are some here, and I apologize if they're offended. It's just a very large group that I know from personal experience. They and a lot of other decent churchgoers who believe abortion and homosexuality and what have you are evil would remain silent and do nothing to stop it.

It's not just the hateful nutbags; it's the millions who would not oppose them.

Keep your sights set on the millions we can reach. I think I suggested somewhere above that Mormons may be out of the running (i.e., the "blood atonement" thing, among other reasons) -- and that's true of the majority of members of many other denominations.

But if you focus on "lost-cause" groups, the whole idea seems overwhelmingly hopeless. Ferret out and redirect your attention to the (for lack of a better word) "average" Christian who does church duty once a week, and isn't consumed by far-right religiosity the rest of the week.

Again, I have "faith" in American Catholics -- there are certainly plenty of Mel Gibson-type lunatics out there (and stubbornly uninformed idiots like my cousin), but I am convinced that if most Catholics could be made aware of the evil motivations of the political company they're keeping, they'd run right back into "the Light."

You can still try to reach the Mormons, but I think the only way to is through something they understand, all too well: state-sanctioned religious persecution. For them, the Martin Niemoller school of thought might have some impact -- even if it affects only the old-school polygamists.

The thing is almost everyone else I know is as upset about the election and disturbed by the religious talk as I am. The other three or four I'm pretty sure will not come around until it affects them personally.

I moved from one bubble to another, much better bubble and don't get much exposure to anything in between.