Overturning the results of an election

During the era of the Clinton impeachment, Democrats accused disgruntled Republicans of attempting to overthrow the results of a legitimate election.

During the era of the 2000 Presidential election, Florida recount phase, Republicans accused Democrats of attempting to overthrow the results of a legitimate election.

This is a powerful, frightening argument used by parties in power against those challenging their right to rule, regardless of the authenticity of the challenge. This simple argument has a powerful, immediate adverse public relations impact.

Once the results of an election have been announced, particularly if the vote by states has been certified, and ostensibly if the slate of electors has been determined, the use of this argument can have devastating results simply because of the implicit suggestion insurgents are attempting to overthrow a legitimate government.

The odds of challenging election results retain the lofty appearance of simply adhering to the Constitution and our rule of law if that challenge is launched BEFORE that stamp of election finality is cast as opposed to AFTER. Should the challenge, no matter how pure in motive it is driven, be hoisted into public view AFTER that stamp of finality is cast, for example, after the Electoral College Vote, the inevitable cries of "this is an attempt to overthrow the results of a legitimate election" will be heard blasting from the tops of every neo-conservative mountain to the depths of every Evangelical valley. Echoes of "sore loser, sore loser" will rebound from every red state, debilitating through deafening pure motivations driving those analyzing the backfires and misfires of our election machine.

My point is this. I am extremely disturbed at what I have read and heard about the irregularities persisting throughout our election process. Taking an objective view of this 2004 election and remembering the plays executed by the same operatives in the 2000 election, it is disturbing to me to realize how time is not on our side. There is so much to be done, and so little time to do it in, how will we ever collect, analyze, and distribute data on election irregularities before the Electoral College vote? If it can't be done before then, any evidence surfacing after that will be tainted with the paintbrush the Republicans always use to resurface its typical dirty election tricks: playing the public relations angle as opposed to playing by the rules. Galvanize its radical base rather than coherently and truthfully responding to the questions focused on voting irregularities. Its spin will be the Devil is trying to undo the Lord's will in this election.

Time is of the essence. We cannot spend the next four years discerning how the Republicans did what they did (and how they did it) and subsequently comfort ourselves by saying, we will get them the next time. Our party, our goals, and our concern for the less fortunate among us, coupled with our alarms and our fears regarding the overabundance of the overly-assertive, bullish, motivation-by-intimidation political opponents we now face tell us this: we cannot wait another four years to start getting this corruption out of our government.

The Republicans utilize the maneuver of delay, delay, delay in responding to FOIA requests, such as those contemplated by Bev Harris. How do we expedite the collection, examination, analysis and distribution of information buttressing our assertion of election fraud, should that be her and others' finding on the matter? It's naive to think we can forward this info to Congressmen and the media for revelation to the public. It didn't happen in 2000; it won't happen in 2004. Is a partial answer simply cooperating with the foreign press and hoping some of these outlets will willingly investigate the information and, if collaborated through their own efforts, report the findings to the world?

I pledge to do whatever I can, including sending a contribution to Bev Harris. I challenge you to post whatever your thoughts are on this subject of expediting the inquiry into the legitimacy of this election.

What is your response?

last election by the people in the US. I think they were right. Amazing that the senate races of 2002 where the Democrats were ahead in the exit polls lost by pretty much the same amount as Kerry did in states with electronic voting machines. Another person said the 2002 was the test for the machines. And the California recall.

The graphs are sickening. I did calling for the Democrats in Florida and the ones we got a hold of were very eager to vote for Kerry. Of course most of them we never talked to, so maybe there were at republican meetings at the time.

I feel this is our last chance. If we do not expose the fraud before the Electoral College vote in December, it's over. Really over.

Any evidence gathered after that time will not carry the same weight. The expose Palast did on the vote in Florida in 2000 was not picked up by the main steam press in this country. No one would touch it. On one will touch exposing any evidence contrary to the results of the Electoral College vote because (1) the corporations dispense the "news" and they only broadcast what they want you to know; (2) if a broadcaster of conscience breaks with the trend and dispenses the literal truth, the message has been sent, we will take you down.

the voting machines will be everywhere and casting one's ballot will be a meaningless, ceremonial gesture designed to create the illusion that the people have some impact on the process.

The time to raise questions is now, not when people have accepted as legitimate the highly suspicious results of this election.

When was our last real election held?

If not a recount, an audit of the states that use paperless ballots?

That's how I feel. We cannot count on the Democratic party. For whatever reason, it did not react when the same thing happened to Gore. We must assume it will allow Kerry to find the same fate. The problem is it is not all about Gore or Kerry. It is about representative government: it is about we the people.

for all.

the states to adopt uniform ways of counting and utilizing uniform equipment. I think there should be a lot of discussion between the states on simple rules of procedure should there be any controversy. I don't think violence will accomplish our goal. And at this point, that is not our immediate goal (looking at the equipment we use); it's a long-term goal.

The short-term goal is to examine the results, the raw data, of how many votes were cast and how many will be counted, and what voting anomolies existed within the process, affecting the outcome of the election. That's the immediate goal, the urgent necessity.

However, don't lose sight of our long-term goals once the current examination of the vote is conducted.

The use of those provisional ballots when one arrives to vote and cannot vote because his or her name is not on the register is an agreement made from election reform efforts. Think about all of those provisional ballots sitting in Ohio right now still to be counted. Those people would have been totally disenfranchised, not to mention those in Florida also denied, had not that agreement been made.

Because we continue to face serious difficulty, I only suggest we have a way to go in our efforts to resolve our election inequities.

While there will always be minor glitches and attempts at cheating in any voting system, the history of voter's rights is either/or, whether for non-landowners, women, former slaves, or former serfs. There is no such thing as partial voting rights, and there is no need for some complicated program in order to hold elections. Voting rights denied partially are voting rights denied.

Voting rights are also not negotiable, so I cringe when I read "they would have been disenfranchised had not agreement been reached" in your post.

You wouldn't accept "partially" being able to eat or breathe. The ideas that the Republicans are spreading about "all of the voting problems" and about "how hard it is to hold elections" are permeating the country. Elections are not rocket science. It is not some new experimental and untested activity. Elections have been successfully held in this country and others for a long, long time, and it has just been since this latest crew took over the reins that it all seems so error-prone and so difficult to fix.

We are 5 years into a systematic and determined partisan effort to discredit, undermine and destroy free elections in this country. That is what is happening, and that is the problem - the only serious problem.

would have faced the same plight in 2000 had not an agreement been reached for immediate relief? You must have misunderstood my statement. Let me say it again, thousands of people voted this election year through provisional ballots who would not have voted at all had steps not been taken to correct our problems. This arose out of a compromise reached from the disenfranchisement of thousands of people in 2000. That is not to say all of the problems have been resolved. That is to say because of the lawsuits and continued examination of each defect as it appears, we continue to eradicate voting irregularities.

Do I think in four years a near-perfect system could have been devised? Yes. Do I think that was slated to happen? No. The only way it will happen will be if the people insist that it does. But for this election year, in any event, people victimized by deliberate disenfranchisement had a avenue of redress ON ELECTION DAY, as well as those victimized by simple clerical errors. If that makes you cringe, so be it.

I WAS A PERSON DISENFRANCHISED IN THE LAST ELECTION SO I DO NOT THINK I THINK TO BE EDUCATED ABOUT IT. This is not about "rights." We know our rights. What we did not have before but have now is real alternatives when our rights are threatened. One can eventually look at a 100 percent fail proof election procedure, but one will never see a world where people do not exist who attempt to take our rights away. So it's not only the system but that latter problem which needed relief as well.

My use of the word "partial" was intended to suggest we might not be there but we have made progress. I am encouraged.

I wrote to tell you that I didn't mean to be contradicting what you were saying, and that I hoped it didn't sound as though I were.

It was an unclear post by me, and I apologize for the confusion. I agree with everything you are saying.

This election is in doubt so now the truth needs to push through.

Count every vote. Fuck those criminals.

THEY control all of the machinery. How will we get our message out? It's naive to think we can assemble information and evidence, present it to the mainstream media and they will report it. Bullshit. It's naive to think we could file a lawsuit, even a class action lawsuit, and any court would fast-track it. We must brainstorm on how to disseminate information we find into venues that will act on it. How do we do that?

I too don't care what the republicans say. I am not believing that crap floating on the networks regarding Moral Values triumphing the election; exit polls out of skew. This is a blatant attempt to sell the public on the smoothness of this election process and to circumvent any introspection into the underlying of the execution of the Bush* win.

Already congressmen are submitting a request for an inquiry.

They may have had a temporary dip in the polls, but that's all.

The biggest problem is all the collusion at the highest levels of both the Democratic party and the courts, the press, etc.

The worst is Kerry stepping aside. I could see the repukes taking it to court again and winning based on Kerry leading the country to believe that Bush had won and the damage that would ensue if it were reversed--totally bogus argument but so it was the last time around.

Proving criminal tampering with elections would unravel the whole mess in one stroke. We would still have conservatives in this country, and that is OK, yes? We don't need to demonize "them" and it doesn't accomplish anything in any case. We need to break up the pseudo-conservatism that is really just a fig leaf for fascism and is not REALLY what most of the Bush voters want, they have just been fooled. Nothing new there, as the populations throughout history have been fooled just as our Republican voting fellow citizens have.

There is a lot of hateful screaming, cursing and name-calling being directed at all of the Republicans and their supporters. That is understandable, but if you take a deep breath and think about it, it is only because you feel helpless and trapped that you do this.

It is not hopeless and we are not trapped.

We can curse this, or we can overcome it. Energy put into hate is energy we can't afford to squander now. It does not help, it clouds our minds, it confuses the message, chases away the support we need, and cripples us emotionally.

I think all of us are having very complex feelings resulting from our disappointment in Bush* being called the winner of this election. Looking beneath the surface, however, you have touched on parts of the complexity.

I agree we must feel compassion for the conservatives, and yes, I guess we sometimes are reacting in simple anger. Not all conservatives are complicit in the underhanded theft of the last two elections. Some are simply brainwashed; some are simply naive. But there is a small portion of the Conservative wing which does exhibit fascist tendencies. I have seen it first-hand, and it frightens me. This is something I never thought I would have to deal with in my lifetime, and I openly admit I am unprepared. I am not afraid, I am unsure of the correct tactics. I think for some of us that problem might be complicated by the fact we see some of this radicalism in both our friends and family. That is a huge, huge problem to confront.

as much as I can to Bev Harris.

I don't see any easy way out if this dilemma and it is disturbing that so many people who should understand what the situation is are talking about completely irrelevant things like the future of the Democratic party.

This isn't going to go away and I think people are living in a dream world thinking that they can go about their lives as per usual. Many here are mouthing the right words, but are acting as though it is still all a matter of theoretical discussion rather than a hard reality and a growing crisis that is moving very quickly now. It will not resolve on its own in any happy or safe way. You can't wish it away, which is what a lot of people are trying to do.

Marshalling public opinion is the most important thing we can do and the more of us who are talking about this the more credibility it will gain with people. There seems to be an almost total news black out about this so we have to assume that most of the population is unaware of the crisis.

We are in unknown territory, as we have never faced anything like this before. This is the greatest crisis the country has ever faced, I believe, even greater than the Civil War. People can get ahead of events or events will hunt them down and bite them in the ass.

The combination of people's desperate desire to deny the truth, infiltrators intentionally steering and diverting the discussion, and other infiltrators over-dramatizing the situation to make it less credible and easier to dismiss, make for a poisonous mix that is clouding people's common sense and judgement.

You said more precisely what I was attempting to convey. This is an immediate urgent crisis which must be resolved before the Electoral College vote. Afterwards will not "count." Time is of the essence. What is our plan?

The only coherent thought which keeps running through my head is taking the results out of this country. If we find this election was in fact stolen, we need to broadcast that information to the rest of the world, to those who will disseminate that information. We cannot be cowered. But we cannot move so fast and so irresponsibly that we damage our own reputation. We must have undisputable evidence that we experienced election irregularity. I think it's important not to place the blame at first on any one person. Find the facts first; ascertain Who Done It later. But "first" means within the next few short weeks. That's the critical part. That's the mistake we made last time, thinking if we could only discern the truth, that truth would set us free. How naive we were. The impact of the truth must be made in a timely fashion. That timely fashion is pre-Electoral college vote.

You are absolutely right. This is crisis mode. Do you have any ideas?

Failing to overturn the election means the end of America as we know it. Most here know that. Not all are ready to face it.

Given that the election needs to be overturned, then it becomes a matter of how to most safely do this. That means putting aside partisan concerns and making the saving of democracy the priority.

Given that the election needs to be overturned, and given that we will succeed in that, safety is a function of numbers. The adminstration will not go quietly or peacefully. Their most rabid supporters will not give in peacefully. So, the larger the numbers supporting the overturn, the more likely it is to happen safely. If there are a sufficient number of people, from a broad enough cross-section of the society, standing down the tanks the people can overcome any tyrant.

That means influencing public awareness and opinion. We don't need to sell them, we need to show them.

So hypothetically speaking....

What if there were a coup d'etat going on right now? What if the mass media were unreliable and corrupted? What if people were not only unaware, but unwilling to hear the truth?

If we were in a situation like that - hypothetically speaking - how would we get the most number of people to hear the truth in the shortest period of time?

"We don't need to sell them, we need to show them" is a rationale, logical analysis, but who do you define as "them." I am thinking you mean the Christian Evangelicals, but I do not believe rationale thinking will trump their conviction Bush* is a good Christian man who could not possibly lie or cheat to steal an election. I say this because I have people like this in my family.

That is why I asked the question in my original thread, how do we disseminate the findings, should what we suspect be proven. I believe we must incorporate the foreign press in our investigation because the mainstream press will never report it. If the stink reaches the level stretching to (excuse the phrase) high heaven, perhaps the embarrassment and humiliation of turning away from hard evidence held under the microscope of the international community will be more than even moderate Republicans can bear. Then and only then will an acknowledgment of irregularity be made.

I am hoping by this thread I convince many DU'ers to start thinking about this problem.

The only way anyone will pay attention to this issue is when we have been pushed to the point that millions will take to the streets. I don't think we should wait that long. I think we should start organizing a huge protest. Not a peace protest, not a civil rights protest....a protest the loss of our democracy by voting machines. Millions in the streets and the media would HAVE to pick up the story. If I never made it to a protest before, I would find a way to get to this one.

if the strong rhetoric such as that exhibited by Kay Bailey Hutchinson (spelling?), for example,

the behavior of the Democrats in acting as an opposition party when blocking our judges' nominations was met with Daschle's being defeated (paraphrasing) and that's the message to all Democrats. If you act as an obstructionist, we will take you out.

How threatening will the discourse become? Does it not occur to her that she represents the will of the people, as did Daschle, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Her short threatening message was followed up by Bush*s rhetoric on spending his political capital. Well guess what, if the Democrats who represent our best interests are incapable of blocking and obstructing on those issues we find damned important, I am sure you will see people in the streets on an issue-to-issue basis.

My hope is it won't come to that. My hope is we can ascertain before the Electoral College votes irregularities to the extent Kerry wins more slate of electors and Bush* loses some. We have about four weeks ....

I keep seeing people tie the issue of election irregularities to Kerry or to partisan politics. The issue is so much bigger than that, and there is no way for a peaceful outcome that preserves the integrity of the democracy to happen without support from average citizens who are Republicans.

So..... "every vote counts" is much, much stronger than "Kerry should have won."

Personally if I had a choice between Kerry winning or saving democracy, and they were mutually exclusive, I would save democracy.

Don't know what the scenario would be....

But hypothetically again, would you support throwing the election out and push for that rather than a Kerry win? "Throw it out and start over" would fly better with the non-Kerry supporting public than "we want Kerry." The election was flawed, so let's do it over.

:)

country!

Whatever it takes, if you pay your taxes and you serve your country your vote should count! Look to the Constitution!

Follow my link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2620148#2620529

If you are a political orphan?

I read an article recently which said people are relocating based upon their political viewpoints. People like to live among the like-minded.

I realized when I saw Tennesee go red once again I can never go home again. I don't know how old you are or how committed you are to Missouri, but if you feel you will always maintain your current political viewpoints, I think you should consider moving to the East. But in the event you do not, good luck with your outreach....

Can't move

News Release 11/5 - Green Party 2004 presidential candidate David Cobb today called for a thorough investigation of reports of voting fraud, suppression and disenfranchisement.

Will you take a stand for freedom?

Yes or no?


http://www.votecobb.org/news1/document.2004-11-05.8107345760