If it was stolen, why aren't the big dogs howling?

I sent my money to Bev Harris at http://www.blackboxvoting.org yesterday, so don't think I'm trying to start something here. I want so much to believe this election was stolen and the evidence, so far, makes it appear, at least some things are VERY questionable. As I lay in bed, staring at the ceiling last night one thing kept nagging me. Why does what appears so obvious to some of us, not appear so where it matters?

Why is Bill Clinton telling us not to whine? Why is Michael Moore writing little "pick me-ups" to make us feel better? I realize, if John Kerry were screaming they'd just paint him as a sore loser, but where are his lawyers? Where's James Carville? Where is our half of the Congress?

Bob Novak was on t.v. this morning saying liberals now know they can't be so liberal anymore. We've all got to be more Christian-like, I suppose. (More like the gay haters and death penalty proponents.) The pom-pon girls are jumping at the sidelines around Fallujah. Al Sharpton's getting a separation. More jobs have been created and oil prices are falling. Where's Howard Dean?

It seems we've been precision-striked. I can understand, if everybody's fallen back to take up guerrilla positions, but if that's the case, when are they going to invite us to the party?

But if the dogs didn't howl when the Supreme Court actually stole the 2000 election, why would they howl now when it's less obvious? We've got a "castration complex" problem me thinks...

I think we should just very matter of factly keep pressing for the votes to be counted and for discrepancies to be examined and explained.

....some nutty shit right there.

A character in the DaVinci Code book is a mamber of Opus Dei as well. He was one wierd mofo, but in the end you actually feel bad for him.

Heyo

...it makes a lot of noise, but has no relationship to any form of reality in the world.

There are much better, factual books about the Opus Dei.

... is a FANTASTIC book though!

All of Dan Brown's books are top notch. I love them.

They are indeed fiction, and not really outed as real, you know that right? He may claim some factual info is correct in DVC and A&D but they are, indeed, fiction works.

Heyo

"Why is Bill Clinton telling us not to whine? Why is Michael Moore writing little "pick me-ups" to make us feel better? I realize, if John Kerry were screaming they'd just paint him as a sore loser, but where are his lawyers? Where's James Carville? Where is our half of the Congress?"


It's because Kerry conceded the election. The leader has left the battle.There are no signs that the DNC is going after voter fraud.

can't do anything about it (us). Oh, I guess I could send in a LTTE or walk in a march (like that did anything to stop a major illegal WAR), but face it, we aren't the ones with the power if our vote doesn't count. Because then, we can't throw the bums out, we can't force the powerful to stop using BBV, nothing.

It's the USSR all over again, with a few more baubles in the state stores.

effective ones. The trouble is at this point, we haven't, as yet, become cohesive enough, not mad enough and haven't put together a good enough plan to overthrow their yokes.

...and never was anywhere else.

maybe we need to make them howl.
maybe we need to get it started and they will see it is right.

we need to keep up the struggle because this is life and death for many.


yeah nay. like the ussr but we have plenty of bread. :(

That's democracy.

NGU.

a 14 ft. crocodile that had a baby baboon in it's mouth.

How did the baboon succeed in such an apparently one sided battle?

Although the crocodile was far bigger and stronger, the baboon was (1) smarter and (2) more motivated to succeed.

What did the baboon do?

He leapt onto the head of the croc and began to punch him in the most vulnerable place,his eyes. The croc immediately spit the baby baboon out of his mouth. The baboon won by being smarter, therefore figuring out how best to attack a physically superior foe.

The current Republican is stronger than us for reasons you already know. But, are they actually smarter? If not, then it's up to us to figure out where their weak points are.

Our philosophy is in agreement with the principles that got the human race to its current position of success. We have risen to prominence because we are intelligent, versatile and understand that our success depends of the cooperation of others. The human race cannot continue to thrive if the basis if "everyman for himself", screw everyone else. I'll get mine. It's up to you to get yours.
The right wing likes to call that the "Darwinian philosophy". That's a
fellatios idea based on a misunderstanding of the principles of evolution ofter described in one shortsighted comment, "The strong survive and the weak perish". There's harshness in Nature, but most species survive best when the care for all as long as there is hope.

nt

Whether they stole it, embezzled it, tweaked it...whatever...we cannot, simply cannot, mount another campaign with the current election parameters next time around. We are doomed before we nominate a candidate.

The provisional ballot law simply allowed for yet another means to disenfranchise voters. In the end, it was another Clean Air/Healthy Forests/Leave No Child Behind piece of gobbledygook.

If we don't make a holy stinkaroonie about the present state of our electoral process, we may as well stay home in 2006 and 2008.

This vote FRAUD investigation is not so much about 2004 as it is about 2006 and 2008. Do you want your votes going into a black box again??

NGU.

THEN, you can and should change parties. I'll be going Indep.. My guess is that a substantial percentage of the country suspects something amiss re: electoral fraud. Bottom line is: if you reasonably have no confidence in representative aspects of "the system", then you owe nothing to it. But you need to wait to see if "something" happens that restores your faith. I'm giving it until ignauguration day.

If nothing happens to assauge the concerns re: fraud then ideally anarchy should logically follow, but the middle class is being played, like they always have, by being given just enough scraps from the master's table that they consider the question of starvation to be their #1 issue if they turn on them. Being cowards by nature they won't rebell until they are actually starving or being so mistreated that their children are suffering in front of their eyes. Like good cattle, electoral representation is not their #1 concern.

Gyre

about investigating voter fraud.BBV

anyone with any celebrity must not discuss the BIG LIE less they find themselves in the poor house, audited by the IRS, or in Gitmo.

That's why no one is saying anything.

Welcome to the new coporate theocracy of 'Murika.

...Sore Losermann all over again. I have a feeling there's a reason everyone's so silent. Something's going on. Something, I think, along the same lines that Bev's working.

NGU.

And intuition is simply processing stored information until the conclusion percolates to the surface.

Howard Dean seems nowhere to be found. Isn't that mysterious? Or maybe it isn't.

This ain't over. We aren't doing the 2000 Circus this time. We're doing the Normandy invasion. Wait. Be ready to give support when it's most needed. Have pen and paper ready.

And, mind you, I'm still a little fuzzy from sleep and just getting going.

What matters is that we need to have our curiosity about the voting machines answered. I don't care what Bill Clinton or Kerry thinks about it. I care about what I care about. And if Dems want to get elected, then they're going to have to take some risks and stand with us on this. They're the ones who seek a career in public life and need us to fulfill those dreams.

And I believe that supporting Bev Harris and her group is worth it. Even if Kerry et al won't whisper a peep. It's because *I* want to know what the hell went on even if we can't afford the legal process of overturning the election.

If fraud was committed by the Republicans, I want to at least be sure that we can drive around with bumper stickers claiming that for the next four years. And the evidence will be so strong that the least articulate person can declare the fraud with certainty. Let it then tarnish the "mandate" of our President Slush. And let it help us to affect the midterm elections. Be damned with politicians who won't stand with us now. Someone new will emerge.

It's whether, or not, we can have faith in the process. Thank you, for helping me to see that.

clearly defined personal agenda that don't give a damn about America.

men don't give a damn about America. They are Americans. We all express our "love" in different ways. Bob Novak only loves part of America and I truly believe Clinton loves all of America - despite his latest "Put down the inclusivity and move away from the gays," advice. He's a politician and understands what a hot button issue that is for many Americans.

:eyes:

It was bought and paid for? Money changed hands for the Fix?

...maybe there is a reason for it. Why should our team be running around with bullhorns broadcasting what it's doing? Thing is, none of us are in the loop to know exactly what is going on, which is the way it needs to be.

It's like waiting for the other shoe to drop - while knowing the shoe might not even exist.

:shrug:

Maybe I need a new :tinfoilhat:

:shrug:

:shrug:

You are in the company of 99.9% of Americans. They haven't looked either.

I believe the exit polls.

They have been 'discredited' by all in the media. Just heard them cackling about it on CNN. They were having a massive giggle attack over the loopy heretofore trustworthy exit polls.

:tinfoilhat:

and I'm not so sure that is was stolen. However, somebody should be looking into it because even if it was just tweaked a little we have serious problems on our hands.

I think you deliberately try to discourage people from taking action.

Sorry.

There is plenty of evidence.

Trot out the alleged evidence.

Machine Error Gives Bush Extra Ohio Votes
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=962344&mesg_id=962344

More than 4,500 North Carolina votes lost because of mistake in voting machine capacity
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/2004-11-04-votes-lost_x.htm

Warren's vote tally walled off
Alone in Ohio, officials cited homeland security
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/11/05/loc_warrenvote05.html

Election problems due to a software glitch
http://www.newbernsj.com/SiteProcessor.cfm?Template=/GlobalTemplates/Details.cfm&StoryID=18297&Section=Local

House Judiciary Committee Letter to GAO (PDF)
http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/gaoinvestvote2004ltr11504.pdf
(not everybody is being silent)

Get back to me if you ever find any evidence.

Why keep questioning this as you continue to apply the wrong standard for "proof."

There is more than sufficient evidence to raise suspicions about the integrity of this election. That is all that is required to demand a full and thorough investigation.

There is no evidence any stronger than what we are seeing that you could ever see uintil and unless there is a full audit and recount. So the TRUE question is NOT "where's the evidence to prove this?" as you keep saying, but rather "is there enough evidence to FIND OUT if there was any wrong doing?" The answer to that second, and more proper and rational question must be an unqualified "yes!"

All of the evidence being presented is in support of beginning an investigation and should not be judged by its merits as final "proof." This is so standard for election fraud investigation - for ANY criminal investigation- that I can't believe people keep muddying the waters here.

What if the police were precluded from asking any questions ir gathering any evidence on a suspect until and unless they could prove his guilt? No crime would ever be solved with that method.

If there is any hint that any election results are tainted - and there certainly is much more thsn a hint here - I cannot understand why anyone would be trying to stop citizens from calling for a complete investigation. It defies imagination. What could it hurt???

on edit - typos

is not sufficiently close enough to warrant an investigation under the law.

Sorry, but that's a fact. Not a single automatic recount law went into effect in this election in any state. Not one.

No law trumps the right of the people to have their vote count and to be free from the tyranny of not knowing whether or not is has been influenced by those in power.

There have been laws on the books preventing women from voting, African Americans, and many others.

The right to vote is the supreme law in this case.

That's the fact. We own the country. The laws are designed to protect our freedoms, not the other way around. This is fundamental to the overriding documents upon which our whole structure of law depends and is subordinate to.

In any case, this argument is STILL misleading, because we are suspicious of law breaking by others, and that supercedes recount laws.

If the law was broken, no other law prevents us from seeing that justice is done.

Try http://ideamouth.com/voterfraud.htm for starters. Check out any of the numerous threads here for further info.

Not that I seriously expect you to do so. From what I've seen since your latest political persona flip-flop, you've displayed all the willingness to look at evidence that doesn't go along with your newly-adopted worldview that creationists demonstrate upon being presented with scientific proof of evolution.

:eyes:

Not a speck of hard evidence in any one of them. Not a speck, but a lot of conspiracy theory bullshit.

Maybe I didn't get this :tinfoilhat: on straight this morning and the Bushco mind rays are affecting me.

:eyes:

...close your eyes while shouting "I don't see anything."

Then dismiss anyone not swimming in your particular stretch of De Nile as a "conspiracy theorist" or "tinfoil hatter."

Look, I'd be strangely happy to find convincing arguments (or at least more convincing than a "La, la, la, I'm not listening, I'm not listening" approach) as to why the election wasn't stolen. If we could be sure the election was on the up-and-up, we could start strategizing for how to triumph in 2006 and 2008. However, all our work will matter little if the system is rigged so that every election will wind up with an apparent "decisive heavier-than-expected Republican turnout."

At this point, there are some troubling questions on the table, and some evidence that seems highly suspect. Is it a case you could bring before a court of law today? No, but it's a case that warrents further investigation to determine whether there is a provable-in-court case. Until that investigation takes place, dismissing the issue because "it hasn't been proven" would be somewhat akin to deciding that, if police haven't caught the murderer within twenty-four hours after the body is found, they must stop and declare the death to have been caused by natural causes.

:crazy:

but hopefully something. It would be better not to start a huge media frenzy until they/we have all the facts to throw at them. I would like to think that is what is happnening now but I just don't quite feel it.

Maybe everyone is a little scared to uncover truth. What would we do if we actually found out the election was rigged. Especially if the other side refused to accept the results. However, if we don't seek out the truth and allow fraud to be accepted there is little hope that we will ever escape this enslavement.

The only peaceful resolution would be for the facts to be so overwhelming that only brain-dead individuals would not accept them. Somehow, I don't think any group that has the ability to rig a presidential election would be so careless. Maybe we need to hire our own skilled operatives or form our own buerau of investigation.

the coup was much less heavy-handed this time. All we have are the polls, and yes, we were struck with precision.

But that doesn't make it any less true. With all the cross-overs, from Sen Bob Smith to all those diplomats and generals to the nobel economists to my neighborhood (90% * signs in 2000, 50% this year), these numbers are complete bullshit.

I will stick with my "silver lining"theory that I proferred throughout the year - that this make-up of the government is going to get so bad, so fast, the there will be open revolt within the US by the 2006 electins. then a small group of real patriots (not me, I am too old and tired) will rebuild us in Jefferson & Washington's image, using 21st century advantages. The next American century (beginning ~2030, IMO), will be even better than the 1900's.

Hence, people should've been in place gathering evidence. At this point we don't know whether this was done or not. We don't know if there is any serious evidence. I will say that, as a DA, I know it takes some time to pull documentary evidence together so you can present it in a way that means something to the average person. Pulling together this field of evidence would make proving your average Workers Comp fraud case look like a walk in the park.

Wait to see what, if anything develops. But, don't get complacent and don't concede anything.

Gyre

This could all be a ruse on the part of the Dems to keep the wolves at bay while the real hard evidence is being assembled. The time for despair will be if the Dems take no action if voter fraud is shown.

in 2000 it was one painful month of repugs tearing apart every shred of evidence they collected.

What You Won't Hear on TV Today
Governor Howard Dean sent this message to Democracy for America supporters today.

Montana, one of the reddest states, has a new Democratic governor.

First-time candidates for state legislatures from Hawaii to Connecticut beat incumbent Republicans.

And a record number of us voted to change course—more Americans voted against George Bush than any sitting president in history.

Today is not an ending.

Regardless of the outcome yesterday, we have begun to revive our democracy. While we did not get the result we wanted in the presidential race, we laid the groundwork for a new generation of Democratic leaders.

Democracy for America trained thousands of organizers and brought new leadership into the political process. And down the ballot, in state after state, we elected Dean Dozen candidates who will be the rising stars of the Democratic Party in years ahead.

Tens of millions of us are disappointed today because we put so much of ourselves into this election. We donated money, we talked to friends, we knocked on doors. We invested ourselves in the political process.

That process does not end today. These are not short-term investments. We will only create lasting change if that sense of obligation and responsibility becomes a permanent part of our lives.

Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."

We will not be silent.

Thank you for everything you did for our cause in this election. But we are not stopping here.

Governor Howard Dean, M.D.

and from his blog-

...This election has affected millions of people in a profound way, but instead of succumbing to disappointment they have turned this defeat into a challenge. The progressive community has galvanized in the last three days.

Democracy for America staff and volunteers have been surprised and delighted at the surge in new supporters and emphatic offers to help. Our inboxes are overflowing and our phone lines ring from early morning until late at night. We have seen a wave of new "faces" on the blog and host of long-lost supporters return home. If this is the kind of "get back to work" spirit we can expect from the progressive community, the Republicans are in for a tough few years.

http://www.blogforamerica.com/archives/005486.html

To some, anything that could be described as a "conspiracy" is de facto illegitimate.

To party powerbrokers who might know, or suspect, I suspect they are keeping quiet because they think the revelation could shatter the system; possibly the nation. It wouldn't be the first time Democratic leaders became partners after the fact in a cover-up of high crimes "for the good of the country."

How fragile is our democracy? And how, precisely, do the powerbrokers think "the revelation could shatter the system; possibly the nation"? What, precisely, do they think/fear would happen if the truth were widely known?

I really would like to know what their fears are, what people/groups/institutions they think will run amok. Because if these fears are based on real danger, then the danger needs to be addressed, not covered up.

I have been disappointed, sad, angry and frustrated. And afraid of what BushCo* and/or their various support groups will do next. But I think what makes me most fearful is this fear I perceive in the leaders of my own party. It would help if I knew more precisely what they fear. That it is there, but so amorphous, is making me fear that things are as bad as my worst imaginings. The truth would be a great relief (maybe). At least, it would be real. Right now, too much of what is going on seems surreal, disorienting.

May I add, Minstrel Boy, that yours is one of the DU voices I most respect and trust. I hope you speak more of this in the coming days.

Because WE aren't yet. It is OUR vote. It is our government. If we don't care, no one will.

If we are of waiting for rich and powerful men to do something for us, then we have chosen to be slaves rather than free men and women.

If you won't listen to me, listen to Sam Adams -

If the people have put it in the power of a wicked and corrupt ministry to make themselves absolute lords and tyrants over them by means of a standing army, we may at present pity them under the misfortune; but future historians will record the story with astonishment and indignation, and posterity, who will share in the fatal effects of their folly and treachery, will accuse them.

We are obliged at this time to struggle, with all the Powers with which the Constitution hath furnished us, in Defence of our Rights; to prevent the most valuable of our Liberties from being wrested from us, by the subtle Machinations, and daring Encroachments of wicked Ministers.

Or are we just lemmings.

Who cares if the "the big dogs are not howling" right now.

If you are convinced of something-- prove it-- work on it. Make it an issue that you can beat the big dogs over the head with until they either howl with you or slink away in fear and weakness.