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I'll hang in there...it isn't Dec yet

thesaurus to figure out hundreds of ways to say "I told you so" without literally saying "I told you so".

That's good to know.

That implies there is no expected change in outcome of this election.

you can. I know its not over ! Tell them what you can without ruining the Dec, surprise. You are on the inside and I am not that far from it so please reassure these people !

There is no shame in defeat...only in not fighting

And we're fighting for all we're worth and more. We will NOT give up. We've got Senator Kerry's back and each other's.

is or what he does or says. If the elections are made irrelevant, then nothing else matters. If this is allowed to stand *again* it
all is irrelevant.

Don't even bother voting if the machines are not destroyed. It would be a waste of time. Pen and paper.

cause it doesn't look like he is up front.

the silence from our leaders is somewhat disheartening.

Let's just say that Pete gets around. ;-)

For a few days, it felt like we were kicked off a cliff without a parachute.

with so many atrocities, I can't imagine anyone stopping them now. I have to have faith in Kerry that things will be known soon. Hope is all I have now!

With the amount of participation we had in this election, I don't think all the people who volunteered and organized are going to stop no matter who else of big stature is going along with us!

Edited to add: And Gore also had a half a million popular vote lead.

So far I wish that Kerry WOULD pull a Gore.

Bushies rigged the vote to give Bush a heftier cushion this time.

btw...what Pete was saying is that Kerry isn't going to go away for a year and regroup. That's all. Nothing derogatory.

I attended many of the court hearings in Tallahassee, FL when the Gore legal team fought back with everything they had in 2000. If that's a "Gore", I'll take it over a "Kerry" anytime.

I do hope that you are right. But fighting in the Senate is an uphill battle, unless Kerry can drag the conservative Democrats along to block the more draconian * initiatives, particularly in the judicial appointments.

Gore fought - under attacks from left and right. never had the left behind him, the way kerry did. But Gore has integrity and courage.

Famous last words
He is impatient with Democratic oratory about the "stolen" election.
"Stop crying in your teacups, It isn't going to
change. Get over it."

John Kerry, campaign July2003
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/connelly/129019_joel02.html

and we're ready to fight the fight.

:-)

It has been just too quiet and if Senator Kerry can fix it from the inside I am behind him all the way!

but I'd really like to hear him speak out soon.

This is a constitutional crisis in the making and we got troops being blown to bits. He can't speak out nor can Edwards on what is going on behind the scenes.

the casualites numbers rise as high as Nam....I hope they realize this scenerio is indeed possible, they use such noise to their advantage in shutting the true soldiers of liberty up...

There is more at stake here than just having the idiot in office another four years, after one is gone, there is always another clone in the making ready to take his place....

I will take heart from the fact that Kerry is known to have worked dilgently without stop to expose such criminal elements...I hope I am not giving him misplaced trust...woe to us all if he is part of the problem and not the solution we so desperately need..

all that "diligent work" of Kerry's was a very long time ago, and while there have been plenty of opportunities to add to his record since, Kerry has been silent. You can put a lot of faith and trust in that ancient record of Kerry's if you want to, but I won't. If I'm wrong, I'll just be pleasantly surprised. But I don't think I will be wrong -- coy whispered hints about secrets and surprises that can't be revealed until the time is just right notwithstanding.

So, if you are telling us to hold on, I will.

it hurts like hell but I will.

Tell us, Pete or vetwife,are we helping or hurting the situation to keep trying hard to prove this was stolen?

Tell us, Pete or vetwife,are we helping or hurting the situation to keep trying hard to prove this was stolen?

You think there's ANYthing to be gained by not trying to prove the election was stolen? This isn't about getting Kerry in the White House any more, it's about saving democracy and ALL our asses. And there's not a minute to lose.

Under what possible scenario, with what possible goal, could the course of action outlined in your question have any merit? Really, I'd like to know. I can't think of any.

sanity reigns!

:)

I understand what you both are saying. All I needed to know is that there is grave concern going on with our leadership.

One thing, though, this is the second presidential election in a row that this crook has stolen -- what's going to be done to repair the faith we've lost in our election system? The momentum behind Kerry was STRONG -- EVERYONE thought Kerry would win this election. The people were HUNGRY for a change -- look at the multitudes of people who went to Kerry's/Edwards' rallies!

I feel very badly for all the multitudes of young people who did their part to get out the vote for Kerry. They must feel so disheartened with their first experience in democracy (if we still have one).







SOMETHING IS ROTTEN IN THIS ELECTION

So I trust he knows what he's doing.

I think Kerry should stay out of the voter fraud question. This should be a bigger issue than a Kerry presidency.

Not only Gore fought for the counting of votes, but he spoke againsty the IWR (kerry voted on it) and was a louder voice than most on all important issues. Shame, shame, shame to lash like this.
You guys still feel superior to Gore, huh?
You were supported like he wasn't - but blew it. And this attitude only shows me the depth of arrogance.
Riddle me this f*ing story then:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6407226/site/newsweek /
The "Outlandish" McCain Offer. Kerry's courtship of
Senator John McCain to be his running mate was
longer-standing and more intense than previously
reported. As far back as August 2003, Kerry had taken
McCain to breakfast to sound him out to run on a unity
ticket. McCain batted away the idea as not serious,
but Kerry, after he wrapped up the nomination in
March, went back after McCain a half-dozen more times.
"To show just how sincere he was, he made an
outlandish offer," Newsweek's Thomas reports. "If
McCain said yes he would expand the role of vice
president to include secretary of Defense and the
overall control of foreign policy. McCain exclaimed,
'You're out of your mind. I don't even know if it's
constitutional, and it certainly wouldn't sell.'"
Kerry was thwarted and furious. "Why the f--- didn't
he take it? After what the Bush people did to him...'"



Famous last words
He is impatient with Democratic oratory about the "stolen" election.
"Stop crying in your teacups, It isn't going to
change. Get over it."

John Kerry, campaign July2003
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/connelly/129019_joel02.html

it refers to the following two years where Gore disappeared from the public eye, instead of continuing to speak out against Bush's policies.

Kerry is still in the Senate, and I'm sure he'll use that pulpit well - and his effectiveness as a critic can only be helped if the coalition he built continues to support him.

Rather than attack him, like you've been doing these last several days.

After the 2000 stolen election the media made it loud and clear that they had drank the kool-aid and they wanted Gore to go away.

The way the press treated Gore (go look at DailyHowler.com) in 2000 election cycle has been documented. It shows that the press wanted Gore to disappear.

They especially wanted all taint of their complicity in the 2000 debacle to go away after 9/11.

Gore spoke out forcible against the war in Iraq. He spoke out and called Trent Lott on his remarks concerning Strom. Did the media want to cover this? No, because they were beating the drums of war in 2002 to bolster their ratings. Then, instead of analyzing the reasons behind the war and remind * that even his own father waited until AFTER the midterm elections to call for war to de-politicize it, they switched to covering the sniper 24/7.

When has the press ever given Gore a fair shake? When have they given a fair shake to any Democratic leader?

Gore practically went into hiding for two and a half years.

Kerry will not do that and that's the point of this thread.

...I worked for his campaign, and the press was absolutely relentless against Gore. They hardly even acknowledged he was in the race, when in fact he was one of the last left standing. In Gore's speech the day he dropped out of that race, he thinked everybody who took part in the campaign. He then said he wanted to say something about the press, and then looked at the camera and said nothing, then he went back into his speech. It was a classic moment.

The press has always had it in for him, which probably is just a reflection that the establishment doesn't like him. Afterall, they give the media their marching orders.

:P

These little teasers from you insiders are driving us crazy!
BUT - the fact that you aren't saying GIVE UP leaves me with some hope...

I really hope that if we should give up you'd be telling us to.

Just hearing from a few insiders...any crumb seems like a loaf...

I'm trying to find out myself from our local Kerry group...someone has to know something!! Vetwife- can we trust you?? Just by saying..."wait"...I will...just say if things are being done or anything remotely to that...PLEASE!!!

Please just let us know that SOMEBODY is doing SOMETHING!! I can call or write or picket or march or whatever. Just tell me what to do!! If that means waiting, then I'll do that, too.

Arrgghhh! It's hard work being disenfranchised.

but we are on the verge of a consittional crisis and there are troops in Fallujah and I know a little more than some but I too would be disappointed if this thing is not true but the man did not just walk away. He is in Kennedy country. Wanted to be President all of his life. Kerry knows he cannot win at the Supreme Court. Do you really think those lawyers were retained just to stay home?
You can trust me to tell you to trust Pete and to trust your gut and to be ever so sure that things are not always as they appear. If this does not work out, then I will be upset as the rest of you.

and the United States as much as anyone. If you, and Pete by way of you, say to trust Kerry, then I will. I've trusted him with my time, my energy, my tears and my vote.

I can hang on but am willing to do whatever it takes to help.

Pete is Pete and I am who I am and there is definately something afoot !

Thanks for your honesty

Please tell him that.

It isn't about him or *. It's about US and our votes. We want them to be counted!

I trust Kerry and have supported him from the primaries. Please, please tell him that millions of people's votes weren't counted. This is fraud.

Also, if he could come out and let us know he's alive, that would be great too, but I trust his judgement. :)

Florida sucks anyhow.

Pick me up on your way to Boston. I'll help pay for the gas! :)

But we'll find a way. All I need is a request from above.

My car has new tires and she's ready to work for Kerry. A few extra days in this tour of duty won't kill her!

And please tell him we'll always have his back.

Apparently a couple of people around here demand instant gratification and aren't aware of the monumental rewards which can result from patience and perseverance.

Though feeling as though one is in a vacuum doesn't help the overall morale.

Think of No surrender. Think of Max Cleland and the Band of brothers. Think !

to be enervating our revved up electoral warriors around here.

I have a slew of war-time strategies running around my head right now.

I won't post to the boards because I also have the saying "Loose lips, sink ships" running through my head as well. And my 18 or so years of opposition research I've done, and, oh well, you get the idea.

My brain is full to brimming with all kinds of ideas and scenarios.

How the heck are you, btw?

:hi:

for there are many Al Gore supporters in our party who respect and admire the Vice President for his service to our country, we all need to stand together not knock our candidates from other elections.

I think you didn't think before you posted Pete, you could of worded it differently then you did....it was disappointing how quick Kerry conceded and I hope there is hope...on it's way!

Perhaps it's time to organize a viable 3rd party. I'm sick of the lies.

If Gore had spoken out in the first year and a half after Florida, you can bet that the media would have crucified him as a 'sore loserman'. He kept his powder dry, and when we needed him he was there. I didn't see a lot of other Democrats fighting against this insane war when doing so was akin to treason. And, I might add, Gore opposes this entire adventure - the same one that Kerry voted to authorize. This takes on a little more weight with me today as we're preparing to massacre and entire fucking city.

Kerry is still in the Senate, so of course he's going to be engaged, so stop with the 'pulling a Gore' crap.

I wish people would give up on these false hopes that he's doing something behind the scenes about this election. The establishment wouldn't dare rock the boat, and Kerry is part of that establishment. It's over.

And I say this as someone who spent months volunteering for John Kerry, walking precincts, working phone banks, doing literature drops. I'm just a realist, and I know better than to think he's doing anything now other than recouperating from the campaign.

say Bush isn't going to destroy America without a fight and that includes the good Senator Jeffords and Congressman Sanders. They won't break a filibuster.

The dark red state of Montana just elected a Democratic governor and good fiscally responsible, socially progressive men and women were swept into state and local offices all across America. Let the Republicans be cocky for now. Pride comes before a fall.

Gore fought.

He quit.

If he were fighting with us, we'd be much further along in our battle.

Don't give me any crap about Kerry being admirable in any way. By his silence he is shitting all over democracy and the constitution.

He conned me out of money under false pretenses, too. Money that came from a $600.00/mo disability check. You know -- the kind that will now disappear under Bush, because Kerry cut and run.

He cut and run in the name of "national unity"? What drugs are he on? Because he cut and run, our nation is closer to civil war than national unity. Has he bothered to learn about the spontanious demonstrations and riots that are popping up? Does he think that thwarting the will of so many people can be smoothed over with some country club agreement to be polite?

I SPIT ON KERRY BECAUSE HE ABANDONED US TO FASCISM!!!

Now carry this message to Kerry. I dare you. You won't, right? Well guess what -- what I'm telling you isn't just the view of some crazed activist. It's the view of most people I've met, too.

"His voice will be loud and clear in the coming days. He's got the support of million of Americans. Trust me, he knows it and he won't let go of the issues he fought for."

Yeah, well, save that for the next stump speech. Bush has declared a mandate. His minions are on TV daily solidifying their base, and increasing the perception of a mandate with half the brainless Americans out there, and probably a 1/3 more of demoralized Democrats. There needs to be some effort in countering this right now. And if you do have "connections" inside the Kerry camp as some have suggested, would you please pass on a request from me? Please tell him that the next time I tell a Democratic politician about the concerns I have with the voting machines - as I have done for the last 4 years - that they not look at me with glazed eyes as if they've never heard of this issue before. Because that really leaves the impression, that they aren't working for me.

Sorry for the rant. Peace.

i think the only thing will happen will be the result of us making a stink about it.

i expect absolutely nothing from the so-called democratic leadership.

they have NEVER showed spine, and i don't expect them to show one now.

if something DOES happen, they will be dragged kicking and screaming along, IF they allow themselves to go along at all.

doesn't fit with the DLC/DNC prime directive, you know? that drive to be more republican than the republicans, lackeys to the corporations.

i say clean house.

Fer crissakes, empower yourselves. Wait and see what Kerry is gonna do before spewing venom and in the meantime, take action. We can all become our own Band of Brothers/Sisters from this point forward.

There are forces behind the scenes working for us, for that I am sure. Let's not just sit around and wait for daddy warbucks to show up and pay our dues.

For absolutely no good reason. For that matter, Gore was a thousand fold more the fighter for us than Kerry has shown himself to be.

I'm incense, and I'm not even that big a Gore fan (or wasn't at the time). Unbelievable. Absolutely shameful.

Man, you don't do your guy any favors, Pete. None at all.

...especially coming from a camp that folded like a deck of cards, whereas Gore took it all the way to the Supreme Court.

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Damn, we don't have to concede our principles for rural America. He needs to stand up on this one in a hurry.

Don't knock Gore, though. He fought hard until SCOTUS made their selection.

Dream the impossible dream.

Right now it's gotta be a chess game. Think rove is just sitting around with champaign, toasting the victory?

How easy would the media bury this if an attack in the US occurred, or if we have a major offensive in Iraq?

Plus - if this is fraud, we're looking at a total breakdown (duh) in the US in terms of the entire politcal system. We're talking impeachment?, treason?

This is the chess game of all chess games.

Start at the bottom and they'll all roll over on each other in order to save themselves. The blame may never make it all the way up the ladder, but the sheer numbers at the bottom would ruin the neocons' reputation forever.

I am tired of titillating hints from magical thinkers who read code words in every bit of news and from bloggers who I am beginning to think do it because they want hits on their web site.

I am tired of trusting that in some magical, ethereal moment(cloud music playing) in the "days to come" we will be unshackled from these fears of fasicsm and a great saviour will save us from all of it because he has millions of Americans behind him (?) and he won't "pull a Gore" What? Is he running against Gore now that he lost to Bush?

Sorry, I just don't like the smell of this and if I am wrong I will apologize immediately.

Whatever Senator Kerry needs, just ask. I mean that.

regardless. If we don't address this issue how will we ever trust the voting system again. I won't continue to vote when I know they are gonna cheat anyways. I hope Kerry understands this, it could really affect this party. Of course we are always ready for the fight, whether Kerry joins us or not. I wrote Kerry last night and will continue to do so every night. I will make sure he keeps his promise to us. I smell a Watergate coming. Could take two or three years to get it, but I can smell it. Someone is up to something. So maybe it's best they keep quiet.

as much as i want to believe pete and vetwife, i have no way to know where they come from. does anyone have any links to their previous threads, or can give me some reason to believe they have some pull.

Gore won the popular vote and the vote in FL differed by only a few thousand out of 6 million. Under those circumstances, Gore was right to challenge the FL vote. Ultimately the varioius recounts, including the later one by the Wash. Post/LA Times/ NY Times concurred that Bush won FL by less than a thousand votes.

This time, Bush won the pop. vote by 3.5 million. Not a landslide, but impressive, esp. given the high turnout. In OH, Bush won by 136,000 - a far bigger spread than in FL in 2000. Even if Kerry could turn the OH vote around, he still would have lost the pop. vote by a significant margin.

Kerry's situation was quite different from Gore's and explains why Kerry conceded. Kerry is a gentleman who considered that a clear pop./electoral decision for Bush was better for the country than a narrow, lawyered Kerry victory in the electoral college and a wide loss of the pop. vote.

Kerry acted in the best interest of the country, not for his personal best interest.

...Yes, thats been the arguement put up by those who said he had no choice but to concede. However, if he had decided to fight, that would, I assume, be one of the contested points, i.e. Bush didn't get the popular vote, the machine count was wrong, and that he, in fact, got the popular vote. There has already been tantalizing information coming out that exit polls did not match machine vote totals. Now, if Kerry had legions of attorneys, and deep pockets to initiate a recount, as we have been told, I think he would have been a lot more effective than Bev at bbv.org, who is having to scrounge for $1 donations just to check into possible illegalities. By filing litigation, he possibly could have bought time to uncover what bbv.org is uncovering right now.

Anyway, that would be one counter to the popular vote arguement. Right now, I'd just settle for a Democratic leader - any leader - to stand up in a press conference and say, "No, I don't agree that he has a mandate".

speeches for us from moveon.org.

Kerry will be in a better position to get coverage, though, as a US Senator from the evil Liberal State of Massachusettes!

I trust Pete and vetwife too. I'm new to DU, but not a new democrat. I do understand the need for silence. I have been saying all along that things are too quiet. And I'm glad about that too, because the media and the republicans would have a field day with it. So for now I will be real patient. And I would like to see a little less "sensitivity" over Gore. I voted for Gore. No swipes against him, and less sniping about him. I believe that Gore is probably helping with this effort also!!!!! Al Gore would want us to unite. John Kerry would want that also. So Pete would you please apologize and let's be done with the "Gore" remark? And Pete, thank you for telling us "something", without telling us "anything".