Alas, the Nader-haters have lost their boogeyman

Please note that this is addressed to the sterling members who employed such colorful phrases as "Nader is the GOP's anal sex toy" (yes, this was used).

Seriously, what are you guys gonna do now?

In lieu of a Democratic Party that exerted more energy in attacking a populist candidate than it did plumbing the depths of the BBV fraud (despite the efforts of patriots like Bev Harris); in the face of a pro-war candidate ("winning the peace" is a bit too Nixonian for me) who gave a craven concession speech callling for "unity" while our country plunges further into fascism, well...you're looking a bit reactionary, and silly, now.

Ralph Nader can now stand alongside Eugene Debs (who was right about Wilson) and Henry A. Wallace (who was correct about Truman) as a prophetic shit-stormer who exposed a corrupt political system.

BTW, I know about Ralph's seedy side, and what can I say, Huey Long got his hands dirty too, and managed to use the power he wielded to push FDR to the left?

* would not have been an incumbent in 2004, with all the advantages thereof.

Nyah nyah nyah.

(And before you go off on me, I voted for Nader - in 1996 AND 2000.)

The fault lies with a debased Court, a corrupt Florida government, and bad advice from Gore's staff.

Including Nader.

Statistacally speaking, Nader was one of many factors that could have swung the election the other way.

Support Nader, but dont lie to yourself about what he did in 2000. You cant just ignore one of the most significant effects of his choices.

Again, his part was incidental, dwarfed by the disenfranchisement of minorities, the crimes of a political machine, five insidious judges and a spineless Democratic party that only contested several counties.

The other stuff is stuff that Republicans pulled that we couldn't do anything about, or where we were backed into stuff by them. Ralph knew our goals were closer to his, and that his goals couldn't be reached, and chose a path that ended (hello) in the IRAQ WAR.

There was little semblance of leftism in Gore's campaign--or Clinton's presidency, for that matter. When Gore did employ populist rhetoric in the final weeks, the DLC chided him. Nader was fighting the rightward shift of the Democratic Party.

And don't even blame Nader for the Iraq War. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a latter-day Gulf of Tonkin resolution take place in October 2002? And didn't KERRY AND EDWARDS help pass it through (oh yes, I forgot, they trusted the president, despite the fact that you, me and everyone on the DU knew Bush was hellbent on going to war)? Poor guys.

And what would have happened if Gore won? The sanctions would still remain in effect, which had claimed the lives of an estimated 500,000 to 1 million civilians. Clinton accrued quite the body count; unfortunately, Bush seems intent on besting his predecessor.

The blood of 100,000 Iraqis is on the hands of Kerry and Edwards, not Nader.

It didn't authorize the war Bush fought. It only helped Bush because Bush lied about it.

I choose to blame Bush for that.

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I seem to have struck a nerve. Two points:

1. I'm a pacifist--I haven't participated in violence, let alone dabbling in anything lethal

2. I voted for Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004; I am defending Nader who, against all logic, will still be assailed by moderates and liberals in the face of a crumbling "opposition" party.

Iraq - then you are also responsible. Your vote for Nader in 2000 helped in his efforts to elect the man who really got us into Iraq - GW Bush.

Pacifism is also about making intelligent choices.

You came in here knowing you'd just stir up shit amongst people who actually belong here. Your entire thread is bait.

I've never alerted anyone--your replies have been far more vitriolic than mine ("baby killer"?).

It could have swung the election.

Was it the biggest such factor, no, but it was such a factor. You are trying to downplay that fact. In 2004 the spoiler effect was incidental, in 2000 it was not. That is just a fact, do the math.

I simply feel that to emphasize Nader, when there were far greater dangers to consider, was misguided. I am not adverse to rational debate about the role of third parties (and I appreciate that you've always resided on the rational end, K-W).

Remember, my thread is not directed at those who thought Nader was wrong to run; rather, it is targeted at those who spewed their vitriol at him for nearly four years.

bashed Kerry? Was it incidental that he took money from Republicans for his own campaign and thought that was great? Wake up and smell the coffee.

...While I did think Nader was being stubborn for running again and potentially spoiling another election, I gained a new amount of respect for him.

Yes, he did accept GOP money, but the man still stands for something and he will hopefully continue to fight against a corrupt system.

I don't see him standing for much of anything. Where was he from Jan 2001 until he started running again when the GOP was destroying the country?

Unless he is delusional, he knew what he was doing in 2000, and he knew what he was trying to do in 2004 -- and it wasn't helping progressives.

Apparently, he feels (like a lot of people) that elections are a game -- only about winning and losing. But between elections, real people suffer -- the GOP will gain more and more control over the House and Senate -- they will add more idiots to the Supreme Court -- they will go to war in who knows where -- they will strip more civil rights -- the environment will be harmed -- etc. etc.

So what exactly is he standing for??

don't see Nader it's because he's an egocentric?

He's been out there.

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And I never said anything about Dean, did I?

I think people looking to Ralph as a savior are looking toward the wrong person.

He isn't on our side -- never will be on our side -- he is on his side. Sorry, but that is the way it makes sense.

Just imagine the force he could have been had he chosen to use his earlier reputation to do something constructive.

He didn't.

As for "fighting against a corrupt system," all he did was expend time and money and bile on a campaign that essentially got no results. He knows that there are ways around the campaign finance reform, he knows he could be using his voice to zero in on one particular cause (say, for example, universal health insurance), and he knows that 2 percent of the vote and $3 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

Nader's problems include the fact that he doesn't strategize and he doesn't create allies. I find it pretty hard to take him seriously as anything other than a perverse 70-year-old man.

same way when they announce that they wish they could have Clinton back. (If you don't understand my feelings on this, then you probably missed out on Michael Moore's "Stupid White Men")

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and that's he's a sex toy of the right.

So there.

and can still go to hell.

The only people to make amends for 2000 are Michael Moore and Al Gore.

Nader's still a corporate whore.

Hey, that rhymed... Cool..

Challenge and pay for the recount in OH, now that will make amends.

NH is not enough.

He wasn't a boogeyman, he legitimately acted as a spoiler in 2000, he put himself in the exact same position in 2004 and only by scheer lack of people voting for him managed to not really have much of a spoiling effect.

There are plenty of people around this country who are just as vocal on progressive issues as Nader. Some even get more publicity. All Ralph did was preach to his own choir and waste money and human potential that could have gone towards a progressive endeveour that actually produced something resembling progress.

He could have built a grassroots organization, independent of any election, to unify progressives, spread progressivism and build towards gaining political power, that would have been great.

But instead he used his resources to run for President, again. And hey, publicity is great, but we need more than just big stunts.

Ralph Nader is right about alot of things. Good for him, so am I, so are most people here, so are plenty of people on the left.

Ralph, not I, not you, not alot of people, has resources. That he constantly chooses to use them in ways that are at the very least ineffective for our cause and at the worst counterproductive is the issue here.

Does Ralph care more about progressive issues or his own ego?

I think the evidence is clear, as you just laid out.

Doing absolutely nothing like he did for the last 4 years until election time rolls around to come out and make a bunch of noise about how the two parties are just alike.

Part of my contempt for the man comes from the singular fact that he didn't do much of anything since 2000 to really try to strengthen the progressive movement and grow it.

Then he came out of hiding to bash mostly democrats during the election to make yet more noise while taking gobs of money from republicans for no apparent reason.

I am not going to apologize for saying I have nothing left but comtempt and distrust for him anymore.

I've loved Nader, I've hated Nader, and if Nader wants to do something worthwhile, it's O.K. by me. Not that Ralph is doing very much to win my love.

Somebody really called him "the GOP's anal sex toy" ... ? That's hysterical! It also says more about the inventor of the phrase than s/he'd probably like to admit.

--bkl
One-and-a-half cheers for Ralph.
Hurray! Hur!

...their smugness, and their vapid minds.

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People really don't like you.

aren't gonna let you near them, though, since they like swinging elections in their own favor.

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You stood up to the corporate duopoly!

And way to address that rigged voting system problem!!

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Nader's 2000 lies are the issue.

he gave us NAFTA and GATT and refused to sign the Kyoto treaty.

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And what was vapid about their assertion that Kerry was running a uninspiring, centrist campaign that depended on an ABB coalition? It sounds spot-on.

BTW, I voted for Kerry, and will never again betray my conscience and vote for Republican-lite.

...plus the idea that he had any purpose running, or that our contributors are not OK while they're Republican contributors are, or that they don't realize that they're serving as smug self-righteous pests and cult members that will never have any credibility with us again and don't deserve our time, or that they disregard the concerns of the Congressional Black Caucus.

Plus they don't care that their LIE put in place the Iraq War.

2000, 2002, and 2004 were all stolen, eh?

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Nader supporters would still be vapid if they only got one vote in Utah.

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he's still a self-serving egotistical asshole who'll stab any fellow leftie in the back to prove his ideological purity.

And 2004 happened because of 2000.

and his supporters aren't even a blip on my radar at this point. That is not meant as snarky as it sounds. Just more of an "eh."

The illogic of the Nadirites and their childish attempts to escape responsibility is endless.

We trounced Bush in Oregon with Nader voters. If Nader voters had went with Nader this year, the country would have been almost completely red. Nader running around saying Bush and Kerry were exactly the same did not help this year either. If they're the same, may as well put Bush back in. That's exactly what they did.

Fuck him. I said it then, I'll say it now.

Fuck Ralph Nader.

"Nader is the GOP's anal sex toy"

Sounds about right...

RL

for STEALING those elections are just living in a fantasy world. They are **lovers and are complicit in his re-election because they refuse to do anything about the broken election system.

"What broken election system? It's perfect as it is, or would be if Nader just stayed the heck out of the race!!" (It's like ** was with that Bin Laden PDB. "Strike? In the USA? Doesn't gimme an address, guess it isn't a problem. So Karl, what are we gonna do about them gay folk?")

As if Nader has anything to do with ** receiving magic votes in those black box ballot machines.
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Should we give him a medal for doing the right thing now?

Maybe we'll be MORE WILLING to listen to you people if you don't approach us by saying "we don't care about your issues or if the Republicans make your life miserable, we're gonna fuck things up for you" and then after we spend months trying to contain your intended damage against African-Americans, Iraqis, the working class, gay and lesbian citizens, and women, in effect, most of us, you didn't come back and laugh at the panic YOU caused.

When you use the kind of tactics you people do, our first instinct is SURVIVAL, not who signed GATT, NAFTA or who didn't sign the Kyoto treaty. You make those issues IRRELEVANT with your tactics. We don't CARE about those things because of what YOU DID AND CONTINUE TO DO.

And he didn't have the cash to request it with.

Bow to Ralph!

...the Nader-hater circle jerk will go on unabated! These folks are stuck in a positive feedback loop: "Hating Nader makes me feel good, so I hate Nader even more, and then I feel even better, and so I REALLY HATE NADER, AND OH GOD! OH GOD! NADER SUCKS! OH GOD!"

that this man, once a champion for the average citizen and consumer, traded in his legacy for something very dark and shameful: enabling the right-wing takeover of the U.S.

2004 couldn't have happened without 2000, and the fact that Nader persisted in his folly this year only showed how pitifully deluded this once-great man has become.

When our heroes turn their backs on our country, what does one have left, other than a nostalgia for what once was?

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