So where do agnostics fit in in these "Unted" States?

I don't know if there is a God and I believe that alot of the believers are a fearful lot. I, however am sick of "God" being rammed down my throat and made to feel like I'm not part the "In Crowd" because I exercise my right to rational thought. I believe that the 10 commandments are admirable rules as is the Golden Rule. I just don't see a whole lot of so-called religious people on the right exercising these principles even though I try to live by them as I believe many democrats do. It's not about religion, but power and control and I'm sure many of you know that too. There are many truly religious people who live these principles led by Jimmy Carter who to me grows larger and larger as a great man with each passing year. I wish I had his faith.

Who knows whether there is a greater power and if there is, I vacillate between our vanity that he would give a ***t about humanity who has so screwed up the works and a disinterested deity, who long ago gave up on us. We just don't know and those who claim to know what God thinks are a bunch of charlatans and snake oil salesmen.

Anyway, from what I see, religion has been as destructive as constructive, more to the former. These United States, despite what the God class would tell you were based on a secular idea of America. They gave us plenty of warning as have many leaders in the intervening years, and yet, here we are not in the future, but in the past...held hostage to superstision.

I keep my opinions to myself, but I frankly cannot see how a religious state has EVER benefitted humanity. We were the great beacon on the hill to the rest of the world until the right wing religious contingent captured the hearts and minds of the poor and pious and fearful. You'd think they'd be a little braver if they were sure of the afterlife.

IRAQ, to me is a replay of the crusades. It is a religious war and we will not win it, but we will leave many innocents dead in our tracks and for what??? If there is a hell, the architects of this war will surely burn in it.

In the meantime, I will live my life by good principles and do my best to vote these people out of office. So where do us agnostics go for solace?

n/t

I'm more or less with you on this. Where to go for solace? Into your own values, I guess, except I'm an atheist, not at agnostic. The only way I could wrap myself around "god" is that he/she/it is an entity who either accidentally or on purpose started our universe and isn't really paying a whole lot of attention to it, except perhaps to study the outcome, like a scientist with a petri dish. Remember "Men in Black" with an entire universe attacjed to a collar around the neck of a cat?

Live the life that is moral according to your own standards and try to stay sane. Not too easy. Good music helps and good friends.

I'm glad I posted this because I am so tired of all the bogus religious talk. The mouthpieces are just manipulating people and that's why we lost this election. I'm just shocked at the level to which they stooped!

to sit at the table with myself and the other gnostics. We do not even need to talk about religion at all. We likely share enough values, and have enough concerns in common, that we will be very comfortable working together to improve this country of ours.

I agree with you on all points - I'm of the Probabilistic-Agnostic/Pragmatic Atheist variety. (i.e. the universe is so very vast that mathematically, somewhere, there has to be an entity that fits my description of a deity, but because the universe is so very vast, that entity cannot possibly have any effect on the world in which I live. Therefore, I behave as if there is no god, though I cannot confirm or deny that assertion.)

I got involved in my local Freethinkers group in 2000. Wow, it's been a long time. It was also the best decision I've ever made. I have a community now that I didn't have before. I used to keep my opinions to myself - within reason; if someone was forcing religion down my throat, I tended to throw fits, but otherwise, I left others to their own vices. Now... I know that my atheism drives me to be a humanist and my humanism drives me to be both politically liberal and socially active.

If you need information on locating a local organization, please PM me. I can help.

Pcat

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I'm on the Board of Directors for one of the National Atheist organizations; I can't say I know everyone in the Secular movement, but sometimes it feels pretty damn close.

Pcat

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>In the meantime, I will live my life by good principles and do my best to vote these people out of office. So where do us agnostics go for solace?

Eachother! :) My experience has been that most non-believers realize the need to protect and help eachother is even greater since we don't believe in a diety to do it for us. My feelings of trust and belief are tied to those around me, and in the exchange of goodwill between well meaning people.

So, a hug to you from a fellow human being, who cares. :)
:hug:

We need to treat each other with respect NOW in THIS life, it's likely the only one we'll ever know. I would rather think I lived this life well and rightly (in the correct sense) than live in fear and hate waiting for someone to rescue me.

kick

There will be liberal cleansing. Are you up for the battle?

And yes, I'm up for the battle! I think it is vital that we keep America a secular state and stamp down this charge to make us "One Nation Under God". It will be an interesting task and needs to appeal to people's basic common sense. I could care less if everyone is super religious, just do that as a personal act of faith not as a political tool. That makes the Pugs especially repugnant since they truly don't operate from deep religious conviction.

1) "We were the great beacon on the hill..." This is a quote from a sermon by Massachusetts Governor William Bradford, a Pilgrim at Plymouth. He was saying that, having survived their first winter in New England, the Pilgrims would build a city upon the hill that would reflect God's glory, it would be a beacon of light on the hill. (I'm paraphrasing here.) It's based on one of the stories in Matthew, that Christians should not hide the light of their faith under a basket, but let it shine out in witness.

Just a head's up so you can avoid that phrase when arguing with a fundy--they pick that stuff right up. Because as conservatives, they think of themselves as conserving the original religion in America. (Never mind that the Native Americans and the Catholic Spaniards got here first.)

2) As to your question about where an agnostic is supposed to turn in America, I suggest the Unitarian Universalist Assoc. (www.uua.org) or the Humanist Society (http://www.humanist-society.org/). Both are well-established groups and you should be able to find both in most urban areas.

Good luck!

He found solace several different places.

I'm not really sure Bush is religious, he just listens to the voices in his head.

When it comes down to it, facing death and pain everyone is an agnostic. The nature of life is we do not know. No matter how sure you think you are there are doubts. That is why there are Churches, Mosques, Synagogues, Temples, etc..

Actually I am afraid the fundamentalist are right they do go to their own special heaven. My fear is this, I will go with them and it will be my own personal hell. Will Rogers decided he did not want to go to heaven since he was told there were no dogs in heaven. He wanted to go where the dogs go.

Remember this. The three hardest words for a man is "I don't know". Since you are not a man it just comes easier.

I grew up in a very Catholic family. As a young kid, I never had "bad thoughts" because I thought God could read my mind. (Made me a little repressed).
An interesting turning point came when, having questioned the concept of infinity, I came to a personal crisis as a 10 year old and in confession told the priest I was afraid of dying and what would be there. In comforting me he did the opposite. He told me in heaven you played ring-around the rosie and didn't have to worry about food, etc. So I'm like, where are my mom and dad? What about the cat? Well the cat goes to it's own special heaven and I was so I play ring around the rosie for eternity?? To me that was like hell and started me on a process of questioning faith and eventually I made peace with, "I don't know", but must do the best with the life I have.

Anyway, I outgrew it when I began to think for myself and fortunately, as religious as my parents were, my dad was a republican and my mom a yellow dog democrat and they both had opinions! Also, we watched the news every night. I started out as a republican but quickly morphed into the democrat agnostic I am today!!

animals, perhaps without a sinning parent or daughter, or without one's best (sinning) friend ain't no heaven to me. The ring-around-the-rosy story, while disturbing to you then, was just a priest's clumsy attempt to comfort you (boy, and do I mean clumsy). Many, many people find comfort in religion and do their best to be good people, and I find no fault with them. Others USE religion. To my mind those who use it are the evil people. These people would NEVER see heaven even should it exist.

He claimed Deism, but even that was pretty abstract.

I know that, if there is an afterlife, and there are fundies in the "good" place, I'm headed for the bad place. I'd much rather be around the dregs of human society than around hypocrites.

Pcat

(Who happens to live in the City of Dis, according to the Dante's Inferno Test... City of Heretics, all the way!)

It's amazing how heaven can be made like hell.

I wonder if Jefferson would have said: "I don't know". He suffered greatly from that male curse, (being a male I understand the problem). I will have to hide this from my wife and 13 year old daughter they will accuse me of being sexist.

To this day Jefferson's Bible infuriates many fundamentalist Christians. He edited it cutting out those passage which he disagreed. See there it is again not willing to say "I don't know".

Actually saying "I don't know" is not all that bad if it is balanced with intellectual curiosity and an open mind. I am willing to tolerate and listen to those who say they they know, as long as they do not force their views on me. Finding out for yourself is what life is about. Someday there will be closure. I am working on not being sexist but it takes time.

My wishy washy response is:

"I don't know, but I have strong suspicions"

I really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks and I wish all of you the best.

10 commandments are admirable? Come on! It's a very nice thing to say and all that but think about it! All 10? The part about not having other gods? The part about making graven images? The part about taking the Lord's name in vain? The part about keeping the Sabbath? Golden rule they ain't!

I forgot about those stinkin' graven images! There goes my new kitchen decor, and those false prophets??? Gotta throw out my son's CD. Point well taken, by the way.

DianeG5385 wrote:

Anyway, from what I see, religion has been as destructive as constructive, more to the former. These United States, despite what the God class would tell you were based on a secular idea of America. They gave us plenty of warning as have many leaders in the intervening years, and yet, here we are not in the future, but in the past...held hostage to superstision.

I can tell you one thing: when you try to harness religious fervor to serve your Machiavelian ends, it will come back to byte everyone in the ass. This is what has happened when the neocons tried it in Afghanistan. And this is what is going to happen from the neocons doing the same in the U.S.A. within the Republican party. Unfortunately, it comes back to byte all of us in the ass and not just the neocons (heck, the neocons might ultimately benefit --as they have from Afghanistan).

I read more moderate Republicans talking about all the stands on the issues that the present administration seems to be taking that they don't particularly care for (constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, abortion, whatever) and they just dismiss them saying the administration will never get anywhere with them anyway. I think there's a good chance they are wrong and that they are underestimating the administration. In other words, I think the choice made by Republicans many years ago of tapping into the fundamentalist mindset will come back to haunt us all.

nt

But I'd like to move there. . .

:)

and they'd want you to keep fighting for the Union.

has no place in the political arena. We don't need to make this an issue which it isn't anyway.

I bet Bush has already hired architects to come up with neat designs for the concentration camps. You either swear an oath of allegiance to King Bush and his God or you'll get a free ride to their camps.

It's a fun place for the godless.