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What can we do now?

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

Thanks for the welcome...GREAT to be here!

when it was obvious the whole thing was rigged? why not jump off and start digging up some answers right away?

too much second guessing going on right now, imho. we need to chill and let things settle with kerry and quit bashing him until we see what the real deal is. it's time to stay hopeful and not let the negativity take over.

See my post, #9. We agree.

(and even right wing red necks understand it) "I dance with the fella that brought me."

Damn all of you Kerry bashers and "he shouldn't have conceded" whiners, Kerry won, they stole the election, they stole the votes from him.

The question is can it be proven (and it is being investigated:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=33278#33588).

Now, when you guys decide you want to run for office, campaign for 600 days, have the election stolen from you after putting your own money into the race and mortgaging your home and after putting your heart and soul into the race, I will be happy to remind you all of your stance on concession.

:mad:

I proudly stand by Kerry, my vote, my support of him and his decisions relative to the election. :hi: I salute him and his efforts.

to those of us who were spending weekends cajoling occasional voters in Ohio to bother to vote (there were thousands of us),

to those who bothered for the first time ever, or in years, to vote (70-90 in my precinct that I identified - probably a lot more I didn't identify)

to those who bothered to vote provisional when registration screw-ups (or years of voting inactivity) resulted in their names not being found in the poll book.

Waiting to concede until the provisional ballots are counted is not the same as insisting on a long drawn out battle (which may or may not be advisable - I haven't sorted that one out yet for myself). Failing to wait was a slap in my face - and in the face of the voters identified above.

Kerry should have listened to US, and postponed any talk of concession until the votes were counted. He didn't have to go to SCOTUS (though, why not? It worked for Dubya, didn't it?)

If Bush** had been behind by the same amount, with the same number of votes uncounted, do you think Bush** would have conceded?

Apparently we aren't allowed to be disappointed that Kerry didn't even wait for the provisional ballots in Ohio to be counted before conceding. If we say that we feel abandoned by Kerry, we are labeled "Kerry bashers." :eyes: Note to self: Stop "whining" and stop "bashing" Kerry. Oh yeah, and "Get Over It!"

How long do we "chill" for? I mean does anyone even know if Kerry is going to do anything?

Do we wait 2 months, 6 months, a year, or until 2008? I don't have a problem with the waiting as long as there is an indication that he's
got some kind of plan in the works.

What is the real deal? Do you know, does anyone know?

How many people will have to die before Kerry makes this move that some seem to be convinced he's going to make? What if he has no plans to issue a challenge, what if we're all just placing our bets on a
lost cause?

Waiting is fine as long as it's not indefinite.

So let's reverse this campaign starting today - our own is just beginning.

No, they are owned by the right wing.

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I know I sound nuts, and I keep posting this same information everywhere I go on DU, but the legal facts are that a concession has no legal standing, and Kerry's concession speech meant absolutely nothing in terms of anyone being elected.

The election is not over until the electors meet to cast their electoral college votes, as described in the U. S. Constitution. This takes place on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in November - in this case, December 13.

Until then, it's all up for grabs.

And, before any recounts could ever take place, fraud must be alleged, and lawsuits filed. Those lawsuits cannot be filed without good evidence, and, as it's only a week since they stole the elections, I should think the coming month - which is how long it is until the electors meet - might bring us lefties some interesting and welcome surprises.

I may be wrong, but I got this feeling ..............

(And, yes, I'm an old leftie lawyer.)

yes, like i said, we need to chill out a bit.

in this instant society where we tap our foot impatiently while water heats in the microwave, we have to come to terms with the fact that not everything is instant.

it's only been a week for crying out loud! it took a long time to scheme this fraud into being, it's going to take a while to dig out from under it.

concession isn't an admission of defeat! if you trusted kerry enough to vote for him, you should give him the courtesy of a little more time than a lousy week before you start ripping his eyes out.

http://www.verifiedvoting.org/

can't leave that out of the MAIN body of the narrative of WHAT really happened, now, can we? ;->

He's got to weigh in on this....as well as the entire Democratic leadership. They have to speak with one voice on this....really, nothing else matters until this is fixed.

Kerry and the DNC have got to start canvassing voters (at least Democrats) in OH and FL to validate their vote. They got to do it with affidavits to give the data credibility. We should be reaching out to Republicans who voted for Kerry, too. Ask them to reaffirm their vote. Let's prove it to ourselves who voted for who. Secret ballots are beginning to be used against us, I fear.

If the Democrats don't take concrete steps now to show they are concerned and motivated to make our votes count, they will find their base giving up and not bothering to vote next time......

they count the MF'ing votes

let the rethugs win every effing damn race.... I'm sick of the dem leaders treating us like "assholes"

We told thme about computer voting....they are ignoring us!

Did I mention I agree with every word you just wrote? Thank YOU Old!!

Pete:

"Over the next few days, Kerry will be back on the attack..."

Pete, this is a bit cryptic. Could you be more specific, please? Thanks!

I've voted a straight Democratic ticket since 1970! But if we get no justice here we might just as well hoist the swastika, piss on the fire and call the dogs! I don't give a damn what Jesus would say to Kerry, but I think I know what Thomas Jefferson would say and I don't think Kerry would like it! Welcome to the US of EXXON!

I felt like I was left twisting in the breeze. It felt like when we needed leadership the most, we were left with scorched earth. I hope we hear from Senator Kerry soon, for I have so much respect for him. I have to believe that he will continue to fight for us, but I must say, his concession was a huge body blow.

We need leadership now more than ever. We need a voice of courage who will stand up to these fascist bastards.

Don't be devastated. Be informed.

See my post #9, above.

You'll feel better. I assure you. .. .. . . . . :)

If I may make so bold, I have to agree with Myrna. She said it all with the line "We need a voice of courage who will stand up to these facist bastards".

Something is wrong. Randi, in her inimitable manner, is discussing some very interesting vote totals. Very interesting indeed, and that must be faced head-on by our Dem representatives. It cannot be ignored and it is a cancer upon the body politic as a whole.

Of course, I do not expect all cards to hit the table right now. It has been a week. Not long at all, by any measure. But as the facts continue to mount, this is the make or break issue for the party and the country. It cannot be explained away. Indeed, it must not.

If they do not confront this issue with all the agressiveness they can muster and more, then the effect upon the activist base of the party...well, I just do not even want to consider that. It just tires me so to consider that and I am too young to feel that tired and I just don't want to feel that tired.

Of course, as always, this is just one guy's opinion.

what should we do about the media?

The thing is, they don't care. Paul Vitello is a columnist for Newsday. The Friday before the election he want to find and talk to some Bush voters. Now, we went for Kerry where he was looking, but very narrowly and there were plenty of Bush voters to find and talk to. The Iraq/Terror thing was a common reason. So, how come they didn't realize Bush has been doing a pretty bad job on those? Because they haven't read a word past the first paragraph of anything and don't watch anything on TV except sports and reality shows.

Here are some telling comments, starting with Michele Malone, who described herself as a behavioral consultant:

"I think he should reform health care - make it more affordable for middle class people, especially the elderly," she said. "And he should put more money into the schools."

"I'd like to see him do something about outsourcing," said Wes Freeze, a truck driver. "And fix Social Security ... but not privatize it."

"He's got to find a speedy way to end the war in Iraq," said a financial adviser who did not want his name used.

These people not only don't know who Bush is and what he stands for, they don't know his stated positions on basic issues that they claim to care about. It's all image. You cannot win an election with substance. No one cares about it. No one wants it.

worrying about what that bastard in the White House is doing, or is going to do.

Yet, these morons have votes that count the same as mine. Or, in some cases, even more.

These people are getting the government they deserve, but, you know, I deserve better. I care, and I take the time to get the information and work out the best-thought-out opinions I can have. I put my money where my mouth is, and I love my country.

I can't fight image. Now, we're probably going to go bankrupt because of it.

My number one thought on November 3rd, was "they stole my reality".

And it's this basic gut feeling(shared by my closest friend, my husband, who isn't sure about fraud, but whose gut check told him the same) that Kerry won.

If we don't fight that issue, now then it's all moot. I never knew how hard some people had to work JUST TO VOTE. My eyes can't believe those lines, standing around after working all day in the rain, waiting to vote for John F. Kerry to have him tell them it was over and they needed to find unity with what they were voting against.

If there is going to be such a divided country, with every vote being crucial for our side to keep this country sane and progressive, then every vote must count. If our votes are going to come from the cities, from the miniority voters, then having enough polling places and a verifable vote must be the number one issue.

Those people are not going to wait in line in 2008. That will be Kerry's legacy, unless he has some magical plan being in the Senate.

Kerry is in a place to fight for this as a presidential candidate. As a Senator, won't it really look like sour grapes? The time is NOW and it's fading. At this moment, unless he fights this, I have more faith in Nader(whom I rejoiced for being off the ballot in my state-Oregon-where voting is EASY) than I do Kerry.

you, buddy, for this heads-up.

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is going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy....

in choosing thy screenname.

To quote Shane MacGowan: "And far away, a city stands, tombstones against the sky. Tombstones against the sky..."

I've seen little evidence that mainstream dems are fighting back. Just refuse interviews unless you have a true journalist.

I think the fight now is about honest elections. K/E owe us a challenge. I'm not sure they will pull out a win but we have to fight back and raise this issue. Our democracy is at stake and we need elections that are more accountable.

The Republican strategy was and is to control the minds of the people through the media. Control the image on television, and control the discourse on radio. Obviously, they've been very successful at it.

Democrat/liberal = whiny, wussy, weak, and waffling in the minds of many, many Americans thanks to 30 years of media pounding, so much so that a decorated war hero who speaks in complete sentences is believed to be less able to protect people from terrorists than a babbling, draft-dodging chimp.

But, seriously ... how can we fight that? We need a couple of major liberal TV networks with complete news channels (like FOX) and several more liberal radio stations with national coverage to even begin to undo this damage. Forget the newspapers. The voters we need to affect don't usually read the newspapers. It's TV and radio that we need a presence in.

But who's going to do this? Al Gore's youth TV network is not enough. Whatever we do, it needs to happen fast, or else it will be too late. It may be too late already.

Oh, and the black boxes need to go too. None of this will help if the R's can still steal elections.

-Laelth

I just got off the phone with my fundie mom and it looks like the SB Liers got to her. "How could I vote for Kerry when he only spent four months in Viet Nam and still calls himsef a veteran ? "

Bless her heart, she is realy a good person, but definately programmed.

I honestly cannot understand why people think this way. It simply does not compute for me.

Nixon's "Southern Strategy" is bearing fruit (and has been for the last 20 years at least).

I am a bit tired of the blame Kerry threads and the self recriminations that imply there were huge errors on the part of the campaign and the party.

Black is white? up is down? you bet! Another truth is that bush ran a dirty campaign with the intention of sowing doubt in the minds of voters about Kerry's ability to lead. The centerpiece of that effort was the swift boat liars. We must never forget that in order to protect the image of a coked out, daddy dependent free loader, Kerry was smeared by the entire army of RWer's and their complicit media. Hell - they only had to buy a few slots for their ads and the media made sure the entire country saw those ads over and over again. Remember Michelle Malkin suggesting that we needed an investigation to find out if Kerry shot himself just so he could get medals?

Another truth is that Kerry was an intelligent, honorable and dignified man in the debates and bush was an incoherent babbling idiot. america is so brainwashed that they actually preferred the idiot.

Kerry is a good man and he was a good candidate who worked his ass off. The tactics that got this election for the repubs were stealing votes and denigrating our candidate with lies via all forms of controlled media. A great percentage of the american population has been turned into Pavlov's dogs for the RW over the last 30 years and they received the message loud and clear.

Rove is busy defining the reasons for the win - new ones every day to suit their agenda. He is trying to cover his tracks for posterity but I will not forget his despicable lies in this campaign.

Seriously, how can a candidate win when the media is dogging him since August giving credibility to the swifties and trying hard to make sure the labels Bush created for Kerry stuck?

The most frustrating part of the whole election experience in my opinion was the media more than Bush's distortions. Bush is supposed to behave like that but the media isn't.

I haven't watched any cable news since the election and it feels great not to have to watch misinformation in action.

The very act of bringing it up is a winner: why would you not ABSOLUTELY guarantee the truth of voting? Anyone who stalls or deflects attempts in this direction should be labeled defrauders, liars and haters of America.

Unlike previous defeats, John Kerry remains in the Senate, which will be a major battlefield.

Without the gerrymandering of the House, Dems would have gained seats this time, as they've done in every election for the past decade except for '02.

We are now a theocracy, so all arguments must be framed in a religious context.

Nice post; thanks.

They voted for an illusion created by the RNC, against an illusion (Kerry) created by the RNC, and for issues framed by deception by the RNC.

The whole of political discussion in the media has become no better (and maybe worse due to its stealth) than one, big Rush Limbaugh show. A bunch of dittoheads.

And it did take 3 decades to get here. Think it's going away in 4 years when we have another election? No way. No matter who runs and what the issues are, we are going to face nearly the same problems getting the public to see the real candidates and discuss the real issues. Fascist governments do not give up power without a fight.

I agree that the media exacerbated the problem. The people I explained the issues to were shocked to find out the truth.

It is sad really, if all you saw were what was on the nightly news and all you read were (their) local newspapers you too would be clueless.

"John Kerry represents basic/sensible/human/American values and principles. He and his supporters have NOTHING to be ashamed of or sorry for."

Thank you Pete.

.........to put it simply:

THEY LIED ABOUT EVERYTHING!! From what happened on 9-11 to everything about John Kerry. They are nothing but a pack of LIARS!

and apparently Democratic Leadership has decided not to do anything about it.

There will be no real election in 2006.

And by 2008, America will have already accepted that it's become a banana republic.

people who voted for Bush were misled. We are a poorer nation under the leadership(?) of this bunch. How could so many people believe such a dishonest person could be "moral"? Why did he have to tell so many lies about John Kerry and John Edwards to win? If THAT is their "morality", I don't want any of it.

completely explains why the neocons have suddenly come out to spin the voting irregularities as "conspiracy theories". they don't spin unless they have something to worry about. our diligence is paying off...

For a week now, bloggers, here on the DU and everywhere across America from the Playgrounds where Moms like me go with our kids, to cocktail parties, people are talking about it - yet the media is silent. Suddenely, Keith Olbermann covers the topic, yet even he on his blog seems to belittle Bev Harris by joking about how he didn't get the "memo" of his job being on the line...funny, but was that because he's mocking his bosses or us? Was that a way to kind of say to the far right - here you go? Or was it to throw off those of us who think there is something to this story? Or better yet - to have any moderate intelligent free-thinking person who might be listening to then think its just a "conspiracy theory"?

They should be worried (they being the Rove's and Neo-cons)...Karma is a bitch....

--make sure he KNOWS how angry democrats are at the fraud and the 'apparent' absence of any democratic party leadership at this critical point in our history

if votes aren't counted accurately and fairly, WHY BOTHER TO VOTE????

(I believe months ago you were working in Kerry's campaign office in NYC??)

I have been politically active for over 20 years and I have never seen the "irregularities" ...*cough* fraud, that this election has shown--and that says alot considering 2000 was a doosey. As someone who has lived in the south all my life, I can honestly say, that people did not stand in line for hours for 4 more of the same. My spouse voted for the first time in his life--for Kerry-- because he believed in him and knows the Bush mantra. My spouse said the other day, "so I stood in line for 2 hours for nothing." Made my heart break, 'cause I told him his vote would count.

Why doesn't anybody in this campaign see how Karl Rove weaves his web of deceit. I said it time and time again--never underestimate this twit's ability to steal an election--and what happened. When I heard Lisa Meyers, on election night--at 8:20--say "it seems the exit polling was off, and Bush is getting more votes," I posted a thread right then that Karl Rove was stealing this election--and they did.

are feeling and what is at stake right now, then I firmly believe that they may very well have signed the death certificate for the Democratic Party - not Karl Rove. I firmly believe that if the Kerry Team and especially the Democratic Party does not do something SOON or that over the next 4 years the Democrat elected officials capitulate and compromise to the Republicans and this administration in some kind of effort to appease, then they will have guaranteed the creation of a Progressive Movement like they could only fear. I mean it...Even I, who has given no less than blood, sweat, tears and all the money I could, will not only defect, I will even run personally as a candidate for the Progressive Movement and take on Dems that don't. I called my Senator Diane Feinstein last week and told her aide after she had suggested publicly that the Dems loss might be related to Gavin Newsom (a friend of mine) and his support of Gay Marriages, that I not only would never contribute donations to her and stop raising money for her, but I would personally support and back any viable candidate to take her on in 2006. These are not just feelings coming from me, but lots of "loyal dems"....These loyalties run deep, but I'm not loyal to any party that abandons its principles and its base....Atleast you have to give the Neo-cons and Bush that credit, regardless of how despicable they may be....I raised lots of money for the Kerry GELAC (General Election Legal Accounting Compliance Fund) that was to be used by the massive legal team that Kerry had put together....I pleaded with people to donate money - held house parties with large donors and organized events at $1000 a head - those people aren't going to give a penny to the Dems if they don't show some backbone and support to the people who supported them. In fact, I've had some people calling me and asking if they can get their GELAC fund money back....my husband even asked me since we contributed!

The jury is still out...we'll see what the Dems do and I still have faith that they will do the right thing....I haven't given up on Kerry...I met the man, I looked him in the eyes, I know his record...I'm waiting...

PS: Fully agree with you on your assessment and disgust with the media...these days its like watching the 700 Club.

they would riot in the street with pitchfoks

You had your chance at bat.

"Most Americans who voted for Bush don't have the slightest idea what he REALLY stands for or who he really is."

Based on the emails I received from Ohio, many don't even know the difference between BinLaden and Hussien. Some even think he is the same person. These are people that live inside a glass bowl.

CBS and Dan Rather tried to help but was overrun by the bloggers. NBC and ABC have not been that bad either. It's just the cable news that's not getting the message out.

Have you been watching TV in Bizarro World again? And WTF is all this nonsense lately about the media being overrun by bloggers? Is that the latest talking point--discredit the bloggers?

I think the point was that CBS was overrun by the freeper bloggers immediately after the story about *'s TANG memos.

My apologies. I think I need to get out of this red state for a while. I'm too jumpy.

I stand by my position that the MSM is not now, and never has been, friendly to or even tolerant of our side.

say that even though the numbers weren't looking great, he had promised to make sure every vote counted and he would wait at least a week to see that that happened. Even if the country had ended up in a uproar, he would have held the high ground.
Also, I know people who voted for Bush even though they didn't like him or his policies because they had absorbed some of the lies about Kerry and though they had no real choice.

The DNC should put their money into a campaign to educate this country about what is going on every day/week and not wait for an election.

I actually heard a pundit say that many people thought Kerry was 'too intelligent for some voters' or some such rubbish! This is the dumbing down of America in it's purist form. Kerry actually acknowledged the intelligence of his base while Bush championed the simple-minded sound byte: "you can run but you can't hide"..yadda..yadda..yadda.

I hate negative advertising and Rove used it against Kerry mercilessly. I realize Kerry tried to take the high road but there has to be a way to tell the truth and still be above the slime.

We Democrats need to launch a weekly report card on these thugs. Tell it like it is. Hopefully it will get through to some of these thick heads out there. End each message with a call to action such as email their representatives. Email the White House. Email their local and national media.

I doubt anyone hears the weekly radio address Democrats do to answer the WH propaganda. It isn't even on any station I receive. We need Radio Free America and we need it now!

I can't go with you on the faith in Kerry coming to save the day, I'm afraid. I do expect the D's to eventually break their silence when the mourning/shock period is over. Oh, do I. But you are absolutely correct: this mess was long in the making, and it won't be fixed overnight.

Maybe this really was the wake-up call that was needed. sigh. lord knows this country has been hitting the snooze button enough times...

I didn't catch it all - Greta's telling the latest on the Scott Peterson trial!

:eyes:

None of these is easy.

1) Reforming the media may be possible via economic pressure, remember 1/2 of the country is with us.

2) Everyone please read mzmolly's thread, the real issue is "voter confidence", which we will never have with electronic voting, for a myriad of reasons (don't think open source gets you out of that problem either, because it all comes down to faith that the right software is running at the right time all imposed by an imperfect bureaucracy).

On edit: This thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2656706

3) Education, at every level, starting first in K thru 12, and general education of the population (which is one of primary the functions of the media)