seriously, how can Evangelical bush lovers be reached?

what are the words, or bible passages, or admonitions from Christ, that will get through their bushkkko induced hypnosis, which allows the slaughter of 100,000 innocent poor people to go on without any protestations?

WHAT can you say, WHAT can you do to remind them of the true meaning of the beatitudes and the true message of christianity? WHAT?

just the 10 Commandments and snippets of Leviticus they were told to read.

fear. Trust me there are lots of scared folks, we met TONS canvassing. Make it your mission to try and calm them with rational thought, it does work.

All you'll do is waste your time and annoy the pig.

There are, however, plenty of people who voted for B*sh who are completely reachable, and reach to them we shall.

They are probably still upset that Clinton lied about having "sexual relations with that woman. Miss Lewinsky." The thing about them is that you have to forgive everyone for anything, except for having sex out of wedlock, having abortions or being gay.

They're bigots. Sorry to say it, but it's the truth. The good news is that if bushco doesn't reward them, they'll go back to not voting status, or they'll vote for Constitution party candidates. And not even bushco is going to be able to give them what they believe is their due. The fundamentalist nutcases will cause the repub bubble to burst. They're already freaking out over Arlen Spector and Alberto Gonzalez.

although I also believe that a lot of them are bigots and that they voted Rush Limblah-blah's racist emotions and hate talk over their own economic best interests. But we MUST remember that large segments of voters in the so-called red states voted for kerry, so there is a lot of hope.

maybe you could just not paint us all with such a broad brush. The Shrub does not even closely resemble a Christian - evangelical or otherwise.

i'm asking people like you to reach out to their lost brethern and remind them of christ's true message, which they seemt to have forgotten utterly.

but if you think it is hard being outside the faith (if you are), try being one of "them" and saying you disagree (which I do quite often hahaha). That is one way to weed out those that are for real and those who are not (like Shrub).

from the Fundies. Fundamentalism is a subsect of evangelicalism. Not all evangelicals are fundamentalists (to wit Jimmy Carter) and those who aren't CAN be reached.

We need to start by insisting on making a deliberate distinction between fundamentalists and evangelicals - capitulating to the fundies recent requests to refer to them as evangelicals will allow them to continue hiding.

There is virtually no essential difference between fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist Muslims or fundamentalist Jews. Fundamentalists of all three religions cause a significant percentage of all the trouble. And fundamentalists in all three religions are still, after decades, experiencing great success in contaminating other sects in their respective religions.

It is hypocrisy to the enth degree for the Repubs to say we are "at war with Islamofascism abroad" when they do absolutely nothing about the destruction the Christofascists cause here at home nor the Abraham/Mosesfascists (seemed like an appropriate coined word) cause in Israel and the middle east.

of a "fundie"? An "evangelical"?

the words of Jesus Christ straight from the Gospels, that's what it means to "evangelize." One shares the words of Christ with others.

A Fundamentalist ignores the words of Christ altogether and studies and adheres almost exclusively, as far as the New Testament goes, to the writings of Paul with a generous dose of "history" study from the Old Testament (the blood and guts, kill 'em all, every man woman and child books) and another generous dose of the hallucinatory prophetic books like Daniel and Revelations thrown into the teaching mix. That's why they are different from Christians, even though they call themselves so, they ignore the words and teachings of Jesus.

So don't dignify fundamentalists by using the term "evangelical" to describe them. A dishonor is heaped upon evangelicals and confusion is caused in the minds of non-Christians by doing so.

maybe out of a distaste for someone or some group you have kown or been affiliated with, no doubt.

By your definition then I am an evangelical, but I most certainly do not disallow the Old Testament by any means nor do I feel that the books of Daniel, Revelation etc. are what you called them. They are as real and as much a part of God's Word as all the rest - and just as valid.

I do believe that you are entitled to your own understanding of the Word as you allow God to teach you - and that I respect that right to glean what He gives you from His Word. I do not believe I need to say more than is necessary unless asked. As to witnessing, I think too often we Christians, in our zealousness, go beyond what Jesus intended... and attack. That was not His desire for us (IMO). Yes, we want to know if you are "saved" according to the Word and would gleefully share our experience; BUT, yours may be totally different. Too many of us want everyone to get saved just like we did -- nothing added nor subtracted. For me then, all would have to be 9 years old in an old brush arbor meeting at an old fashioned (now shamefully) altar.

Chances of that are mighty slim. Hahah.. dontcha think?

They cloak themselves in religion, but their world view makes them see the Bible so differently from other evangelicals.

Just a thought, but understanding motivation is so important in reaching them. The religion part is almost a smokescreen.

because you do not seem to see so much of the near-fanaticism in northern states as we do down in the south. Now I am a southerner born and bred, but somewhere along the line I opened my eyes and found that honey grabs more bees, if you get my drift. Besides in this world we live in (ESPECIALLY now with the next 4 left in Shrub's hands) I do good to keep my OWN sanity let alone fuss at you about yours! Hahahah I do love the Lord and I do hope all of us make heaven, but I ain't beating nobody over the head. MOST can think for themselves once shown.

...lots of them will eventually figure out that the Bush agenda is not a real Christian agenda. They will also soon find out that they have been used for their vote and Bush really can care less about what they want.

We need to stick to our drive for equal rights for all; separation of church and state; and the lessening of suffering for the poor and the weak. This is what Jesus taught. Hello!! this is the real Christian agenda.

And finally, people do not like to be told what to do or how to think. If we say nothing and work hard, we will eventually get their vote.

But we will win. They just won't vote.

Christianity is all about commercialization now.

Television shows like the 700 club. James Dobson's books and tapes. Left Behind books. Miniseries. The Passion of the Christ movie. The Passion merchandise. Speakers like Falwell, Dobson, with their own tv and radio shows and newsletters, etc.

So, we need to do that.

The Christian Left (it is small, but exists) needs to get their message out there. We need outspoken, charismatic, smart liberal Christians to get out there--have their own radio shows, have their own show like the 700 club, write and sell books, etc. I don't know who the leader could be. The only outspoken Democratic clergyman I know is Father Greeley, but he's Catholic and we know how evangelicals think Catholics are going to hell. :eyes:

This is the only method that we can use right now...the media...and we have to find a way to get our programs on the air.

In fact, as much as some of us post on these boards, why are WE not writing books expressing our own point of view? With today's software possibilities, we really have no excuse except lack of creative imagination.

There is a magnificent minister in New York who heads up the huge multicultural Riverside Church. For the life of me, I cannot remember his name at this senior moment - he was on AAR's Morning Sedition today. He speaks and writes beautifully for the Progessive ideals. He would certainly be a great spokesperson for getting our values across and what I really like is that he is NOT a centrist.
I am getting sicker and sicker of the "Republican-Lite" bent that some of our leaders are taking.

...they find out bush is a moonie.

rev. moon claims to be christ returned, and collects billions the world over for his coffers, and the whole bush vampire family is in cahoots with the man.

but joe sixpack doesn't hear about it in church.

Rev Moon. There is a complete black-out in the media on Moon. Look at how he was coronated in a public Senate building this year as the New Messiah and not a squeak about it.

maybe this is something we can nag Olberman into covering?

and they likely will, the following things will alienate the Bush/evangelical axis:

1. abortions will actually continue to increase. http://www.baptiststandard.com/postnuke/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=2458&print=1

2. Despite lip service, Bush will not appoint a SC judge who will overturn Roe v. Wade by first sending someone who will obviously not be approved to Senate Judiciary committee and then sending some "moderate" candidate who will uphold the corporate legal agenda but do nothing on the right-wing social agenda.

3. Congress will pass some really silly, meaningless laws like the "Defense of the Ten Commandments Act" or the "Public Acknowledgment of God on Public Lands Act" or some other nonsense, then they will cut the corporate tax to 0% and raise payroll taxes in a secret 3:00 a.m. vote.

4. There will be no constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.

If this happens by 2006, the evangelical-fundie swarm will stay at home and Bush could lose either house, senate or both in mid-term. It will happen by 2008 and the Frist/Guliani/Swarzenegger bloodbath primary will begin.

have you listened to c-span lately? karl marx was right. (and no I not a fargin marxist!!)

You know that many priests and nuns have left the Catholic Church because of their problems with the Pope, the Vatican and all that goes with them. These people are religious and they are generally liberal.

You might remember the Kerrigan brothers, both priests, involved in radical causes. There are more of them out there, not so radical but on the same side. There are also undoubtedly a lot of students who left the seminary or bible colleges with concerns about conservative abduction of religions.

These people understand religion, and they understand that liberalism and religion have many points in common. Find these people. Talk to them. Get them into our political organizations. Make them our religious consultants.

IMHO - We need a Holy War of our own because the vast majority of Catholics are not like fundies. Kerry won Catholics in the blue states and lost them in the red states. They need to be peeled away.

Their actions speak louder than words.
It's their hypocrisy; let them teach themselves.

the bible. It is always about having power over others. So, the relevant bible verses will never have an effect. Gotta do some psychology on these folks.

As I read in a Newsweek article, it would be the same as Bush trying to attract sociology professors at Berkeley. Don't try.

We have to consolidate our party, and attract independents. Don't try to do the impossible.

i haven't been able to get through to 3 of my own family members for over 30 years now, without success.

I lived in a student center run by the Church of Christ as a graduate student. Frankly, I did it because the rent was $35 a month, and because I had a friend over there who kept telling me how great the place was and served as a reference.

I had to attend two devotions a week. One was the entire group, and one was a smaller session focusing on different portions of the Bible. Now, I want to preface the rest of what I say by making it clear that I met some very good, and some very bad people there. There's the same spectrum of personalities there as anywhere. I also want to make it clear that my descriptions do not necessarily apply to all fundamentalists, but are just my personal observations.

Fundamentalist Christians are generally very Pauline in nature; that is, they focus more on the books authored by Paul than they do the Gospels. During discussions, I heard "Paul says" more than "Jesus says"; in fact, I pointed that out during more than one meeting. Unfortunately, Paul's books are full of rules and admonitions. What happens in many cases is that fundamentalists are brought up emphasizing these rules, and emphasizing how people not of their church don't follow them. This leads to a very black-and-white worldview - with them or against them - and leads to a very insular kind of community. Additionally, the fundamentalist churches and communities that I've seen have tended to be very homogenous in terms of race and ethnicity. Look, I've seen businesses that were predominated by people from fundamentalist churches. The people in these businesses were around people of their own mindset 24/7.

So here you have the setup - first, that there's a real lack of diverse viewpoints, and second, they're told that their worldview is the only correct/holy one. It's very easy for these two things to get conflated into a genuine fear and animosity towards viewpoints and people that are different from them, and into a sense of superiority regarding viewpoints and people that are different from them.

The only thing that I've seen that works to change this mindset is more exposure to different worldviews. This has one of three outcomes:

1. The individual becomes more defensive and hard-shelled with his/her beliefs; e.g., circles the wagons.

2. The individual becomes more moderate for a while, but then retreats to his/her former position after his/her experiences with different viewpoints are over.

3. The individual makes a break with his/her viewpoint. What this means for them is that they are alienated from everything that they've grown up with. Churches "disfellowship" them. Families and friends can refuse contact with them. It's a real trauma, and understandably, not many take this path.

Frankly, the only thing that will effect change in fundamentalists as a whole will be when their leaders - preachers, televangelists, and so forth - change. Even then, there will be groups that break off in order to keep their old views. The Church of Christ is a result of Joseph Campbell breaking off from the Presbyterian Church in response to a more moderate worldview.

In short, I don't think it's possible to reach them. Right now, Christianity and Republicanism have been conflated in their worldview. Until something drastic happens to change this - basically, until they are actively alienated by the Republican Party, that won't change. At that point, they will either form their own party or take over one of the smaller parties like the Reform Party.

The key to regaining national preeminence doesn't lie with recruiting fundamentalists. It lies in reestablishing Kennedy's message: ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. It lies in making "screw you, I've got mine" a socially unacceptable statement or viewpoint. It lies in convincing people that a rising tide lifts all boats. And it's going to have to happen in soundbites and easily repeatable aphorisms. I'm not smart enough to come up with those, but I know that this board abounds with brainpower. :-)

This matches my own experience very closely.


MDN

Thank you for taking time to write this explanation. I really understand this better now.

I'm not sure if this was attempted, but do you feel think any of those folks you dealt with could separate and analyze the teachings of Paul from the teachings of Christ?

Just a theory: Paul gets mentioned way more than Christ in my limited experience. Consequently, I wondered if these folks can see what Paul said goes well beyond, and often contrary to, what Christ said, they may see things differently. A tough sell, but it's all I got.

Thomas Jefferson once said Paul was the first corrupter of the gospels of Christ. Not sure if any of them can see that.

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org

BTW, welcome to DU.

They won't let go of Paul or dissociate between Pauline books and the Gospel for the simplest of reasons: they feel comfortable emphasizing those portions of the Bible. Those who don't feel comfortable with it join a more moderate church, or make a break with Christianity entirely.
I made a number of enemies at the center simply by saying, "Forget Paul. What does Jesus say?"

The irony of it is, many of them have vague concerns about being too "legalistic" (in other words, strict literalist), but aren't about to deemphasize any of Paul in order to address that concern. My purely personal view is that they're very Pharisaic in that they pay so much attention to the law that they can forget love and compassion; ironically enough, that's precisely what Jesus opposed.

Jefferson's quote brings up a peculiar discomfort with me: I can't feel comfortable with it, but I can't entirely disagree with it, either.

...for what I write here, as it is not my desire to in any way belittle your impact in discussion. However, I think it would be very easy for a "believer" to dismiss anything you or I have to say on the subject in causal conversation.

On the other hand, if, for instance, someone in a higher profile position could initiate the topic of Jesus vs. Paul, this could create a domino effect in multiple news cycles forcing conversation on potentially divisive topics that Republicans rely on not being divisive.

It wasn't Jesus that said slaves should be submissive (Titus 2 : 9-10), women should be subordinate (1 Cor.: 34--35), and wrote the Letter to the Romans 13 that could be easily interpreted to justify following Hitler. This was all Paul. I think it would be interesting to see Jerry Falwell or Sean Hannity defend Paul (possibly at the expense of Jesus), consequently forcing people who thought of themselves as Christian reconsider if they are really Christian or rather Paulian.

If the 2008 Democratic presidential candidate said, "I love Jesus Christ. I can't live without Christ in my life. I can live without Paul though. Big difference. The Republicans, however, can't live without Paul.", I can potentially see this working to dividing at least part of their Christian base.

You said the Jefferson quote brought a "peculiar discomfort" to you. And you're on our side. Imagine how they would feel when confronted in a 24/7 news cycle.

Hey, I was just pointing out what my experience led me to. Perhaps I haven't thought it through well enough. I just never had the idea that someone in a higher position should confront the matter in this fashion.

"I love Jesus Christ. I can't live without Christ in my life. I can live without Paul though."

Put that way, I have no discomfort, peculiar or otherwise. I think that there are many who would agree. I would love to see Falwell or someone of his ilk cornered in that fashion. I'm just not sure that once fundamentalists have given their allegiance to someone, they'd give it up for anything short of what they considered betrayal by that person. Perhaps I'm not giving them enough credit.

At least 50% of the these nitwits have never read Paul. How could any female with the IQ potential of a radish, find Paul even remotely acceptable and/or reasonable?

I'm one of the 'evangelicals' referred to various discussion topics here. Actually had my first DU post this morning, and was overwhelmed by the kindness of the folks who welcomed me. Anyway, I'm a late middle-ager, just retired after 30 years as a foreign exchange trader with a big bank. Have lived in Argentina, Chile, Brasil & Ecuador as part of my job. Joined the ranks of the "Christians" when I was a young fellow (35) and attend a church that, while smaller in numbers, would be regarded as an 'evangelical' church.

That said, GaYellowDawg's comments hit the nail on the head. The vast majority of the folks in my church (&denomination) do in fact fall into the category of the time-worn 'values' voters. It is real, real hard to find a democrat in the bunch, & at times the church (not consciously!) comes VERY close to equating christianity with being a republican. (You can't be the former if you're not the latter.) It comes in various shades of gray, but it is there. I have repeatedly gone to the Administration to take them to task for allowing political literature to be handed out on church property (guess what party that supports) and, in fact, my wife had to run off a couple of people who were stuffing Republican literature under the windshield wipers of our car on the Sunday before election day.

The key (as I see it...and bear in mind I'm not a particularly astute observer) to appealing to evangelicals is to stick to the basics of presenting the great tents of the Democratic platform: fighting for those who cannot fight for themselves; heeding the call to take care of the poor, elderly and disenfranchised (sorry to use that word, but it works); being on the offense in protecting the environment; and capably protecting our nation (in a military and economic sense). I'm sure there are more points to be made here, but the fact remains that we should not be shy in espousing these views! Of course some evangelicals...maybe even a majority....just won't listen, but, as lawyer friend continually tells me, "The Truth is an Absolute Defense".

As an evangelical, my world view is clearly affected by my faith. But rather than pulling the cover over my eyes and kow-towing to the republicans/big business, I mold the truths of the democratic party into my message to confirm that a society really is defined by how it treats its weakest! The democratic message DOES NOT CONFLICT with the practical effects of the Christian faith. In practice, a lot of Christians allow this conflict and, indeed, seek to nourish it, but that does not disparage the democratic message.

I have to say one thing that has dismayed me (beyond the election results!) is the spate of violence that I've seen reported in the major media done to republican political offices. There may very well be similar republican instances of violence, but that type of thing does not contribute at all to the democratic cause.

Sorry for the length of this post; I'm new at this and thank you for your tolerance!

There are no words or slogans or anything else that will reach those people. You have it reversed. They are trying to reach out and "convert" you. To bring you into their conservative, intolerant, hate on demand evangelical religion. You see without a "schism" or appearance of one there is little to define fundamentalist christians. The fact that democrats are supposed to be the party of inclusion and tolerance, caring for all people and fighter for civil liberties and most every other aspect that effect people is what "defines" right wing fanatics. When you are a fanatic and full of hatred for their well defined enemy there is nothing you can possibly say to any of these people. They do not respond to basic human interplay. Everything must be done and seen from their very warped ground rules. These people are nuts. When you have a "group of folks" (That's a direct quote from Bush when he was having such a hard time formulating an inclusive title for a bunch of terrorists) a group of folks that no longer wish to live within the laws of the United States of America, the rule of law itself and especially our constitution you are left with fanatics that instead, as I said, living within the laws of our nation which includes the decisions of our courts, are now hell bent of "altering" our government to suit their needs. You are looking a people that instead of living within constitutional decisions now want to destroy the constitution and to use congress to so weaken the power of the courts that they will not have the power to rule against things within their agenda you are talking about people who represent a direct threat to the security and the "life blood" of this country. And you want to try to turn a cleaver phrase to appease these maniacs. I submit to you that if you have such a problem living within the very clear ideals of the democratic party and you think the enemy is more moral and righteous then I recommend you change your color from blue to red. I will not allow this democrat to allow my ideals to be "watered down" to sound more like those that seem more like terrorists than concerned Americans.

They've been convinced that the Democratic Party represents Satan. This folklore will be passed on through their mouth-breathing descendants and their mouth-breathing descendants and their mouth-breathing descendants... on and on, until the mountains fall into the sea. We will never have a candidate good enough for them, because we represent Satan to them. Forever.

These people are old-testament Christians, they have no idea that there is a new testament. Well, they do like the Christmas story, that spooky virgin birth and all, but the crucifixion story is soooooo much better because of all the blood and gore and violence. But as far as the teachings of Jesus are concerned, his words...? Nah, they don't countenance any of that junk. It's too "nice," and "nice" just doesn't jibe with their view of a vicious, violent, spittle-spraying, thunderous, batshit, baby-killing God. (They forget how many babies God killed in the Bible, don't they?)

Anyway, my final answer: YOU CAN'T. EVER.

who need to be deprogrammed.

Most of them are simple, descent people who are just trying to make ends meet.

They are not political junkies like we are. They do not have a lot of time to catch more than a few sound bites a day and the sermon on Sunday.

These are the folks, we need to start talking to, educating, and has they say, show them the light.

Just like in the early days of christianity, there were assorted flavors of christianity. However, when the Pauline christians joined up with the Roman Emperor, Jesus was left behind.

The neo fundie christians today are actually followers of Paul, not Jesus. That is why they so easily deceived.


John 14
6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


In other words, you can't follow Jesus, if you follow George Bush. (or Paul of Tarsus, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell...)

They are drawn to fundi-ism for twisted psychological reasons. If they sincerely wanted to follow the teachings of Jesus, it couldn't be more simple, it's all in the NT in black and white. That is NOT what they desire.

to feed the lions

repeatedly and time.

This is a hard lesson for truth-tellers to grasp but grasp we must.

This is so important that it is the key to the survival of our species.

I am working on the manual for change and will share with the DU Choir very soon on just how to do it. I promise.

They've excused everything that Bush* has done, as long it has nothing to do with sex or gay marriage. Their brains are off and they're bible-thumping zombies.

They use the bible to justify their hatred and fear of people and things..

who was expressing her views on the subject of Palestinians and the prospects for peace in the Middle East:

Christian fundamentalists will vote Democratic when they can love their own traditional families more than they hate gay people.

and the attempt to do so by the Democrats simply diverts resources from the important stuff. I believe it to be silliness to think that it was the Christian vote that lost this thing for Kerry (and the world).

Democrats have lost their way, should do some very serious inward looking, ponder what to do and then cast out the neocons who are ruining the party, return to its roots and send out a clear message to its real base, the youth, the families, the working people.

underscores your position. Now we hear that groups of centrist Democrats are coming together under a unified title to become a stronger force in the Party of "Republican-Lites." For the life of me, I don't understand what they think separates them from the Republicans and WHY they want to lean this way. Can anyone explain this?

Can someone enumerate the beliefs of the centrists from the beliefs of the Lefties?

A Centrist used to be simply a moderate, but , as we are become increasingly splintered and estranged, one from the other, the term may mean different things to different people.Also, and most importantly, people tend to believe themselves always to be in the center. Most folks do not envision themselves to be extremists, left or right.

Those in leadership positions within the Democratic Party may consider themselves to be in the center, I think them much further to the right, and definitely in the way!

As long as these folks are charged with steering the course of the party they will vie for the same votes as do the conservative Republicans and will lose to them every single time.Issues go begging, the real problems that energize most people have little to do with religion, values, or someones idea of morality. The support for leftist agendas is not being tapped, is vast and alienated, and is the key to regaining the WHO.

The guest on AARs Unfiltered today was Simon Rosenberg. He has started a multimillion dollar organization called the New Democratic Network at www.newdem.org.

Their major program is the Hispanic Project. They are apparently seeking to capture more of the hispanic vote.

Liz and Rachel asked him to address the problem that so many black Americans were disenfranchised during the election and how did he react to the outrage?

He totally skipped the topic altogether and jumped right into talking about the Hispanic Project.

He doesn't want to be described as "centrist" but that is what his policies are.

He also would like to be the Chair of the DNC. From what some of the AAR personalities are saying, WE, the voters, have no say-so in whoever is chosen or elected for that spot. Liz and Rachel said Rosemberg wasn't such a bad guy. Of course, I don't know who they thought could be worse.

the old GOP to this gal whose been around long enough to know.....

Monkey-see monkey-do...Bush talks about increasing support among Hispanics, and he does, to a smallish degree, so the dems rush to recapture this group. As if attention to one small demographic makes up for their totally ignoring all the minorities within the party. As if these folks cannot see right through their phoniness, fail to note how the black caucus has been shunted aside within the former "big tent".

As to Rosenberg, here's a link to his biography and work history within the party, including speeches and interviews:

http://www.newdem.org/leaders/rosenberg.php

He doesn't sound so bad at all.........but Ive little optimism left.

I read a really cool article written on behalf of Christian churches and organizations that explained how single issue voting (abortion) is not morally responsible, and that Christians should consider many issues (including poverty, health care, wages, education, the environment, etc.) before voting.

The reality though, as I've experienced it in Texas, is that many people are voting for Republicans based on "values" propaganda. Somehow, if the values or basic ideals of the Democratic party were defined for them, and contrasted with the Republicans' disregard for the common people, MAYBE it would make a difference. I'm just not sure how to reach this audience.

only when leaving Oklahoma in droves looking for grape picking jobs in California....Still even then, those who remain and have home shacks will vote Republican, just to piss me off.

But to do so requires neutralizing the wedge issues that the Republicans used to pry them away in the first place.

To do that probably means compromising on issues like abortion and gay marriage. And the only compromise I can think of that might not start a civil war in he Democratic Party would be to grant authority over those issues to the states.

we haven't had their vote in three decades.

Let the GOP have'em. They deserve'em.

They are guilty and they should fear for what they have done.

or the business side of a hammer right through their thick inbred skulls... j/k

My in-laws came at me after the election with a very "see we won " attitude.

I hit back i WILL NOT tolerate family members questioning my moral values.

I nicely explained that I felt their "good" religious intentions are being manipulated by
the political right and that self righteousness alone can not make the world a better place... and in fact abortion will rise in the next four years.. yada yada..
and I attached several lefty Christian articles.
Absolutely no reply.

They think they bought the moral high road.
They always assumed that because I'm not Catholic and like them ( keeping my beliefs to myself to keep peace), I'm not a Christian.
oops.

question them... and keep questioning themIt is the only way to break through the political brainwashing.

i thought you were in your other thread too. so i told you, lol lol lol. then i come here thinking boy, this question is really being asked. and i was going to copy reply on here from other thread

mopaul, this is energy of universe in action. this is where the faith i talk, that faith i have in. i have yet to see in experience where purity and stillness was not a possibility

lets remember who we are as a people, cause we get dissed so often, it is hard for even us to not buy into repug talking points. we do the f*in research. 9/11 every dem i know started learning middle east, muslim religion......whole friggin history of middle east. we are that good. now we are having the fundie issue, what do we do, spend over a week researching it

one of the points i now make, when starting talk with republicans, dems are all over the place learning about the fundie, to try to understand, not a chance in hell a republican does that, and they know.

gives me an edge from the start

sittin in truth gives the tools and power and ability.

I believe fundies need a swift kick in their bible thumping asses. Problem is that as long as Bush is seen as their surrogate savior not much that could happen which is horribly fucked up will effect their point of view. So given that point, Bush will need to be caught in the act of doing something so horrible that even a necrocognate fundie could deny. Photos of Bush giving Arnold Gropenator a hummer in the White House Rose Garden could do the trick.

faith. Most all are seeking to touch that unknown that is as invisible as the wind.

I have an aversion toward someone proselytizing to me and one being judgmental toward anyone that doesn't believe as they.

It'll be too late. You can't reach them; if you could they would understand that the message Jesus sent was not about killing to force your viewpoint and not about being selfish and greedy.

Jesus would have gotten along a lot better with Gandhi than with Bush or any of those BS artists on national TV.

I listened to a Wall Street Journal reporter (this am on C-Span) smugly deliver a lecture on Christian Morals and how the Democrats didn't have any and I wondered where his greedy, self absorbed, view of life would fit in with the true teachings of Christ.

But he's a reader and curious, unlike the others, so I don't know if it would work with others. What got him was the murder of children going on in Afghanistan and Iraq (He has two small children so I think that brought it home). He views abortion as not a huge issue because the "children" are innocent and therefore go straight to heavan.

I say to keep pushing the murder of innocents in Iraq. They can only pretend it's not happening for so long. Lot's of pictures might help.

By the title of her return e-mail, I'm guessing she is going to try taking the moral high ground. Again. I give up. Let someone else reach my family. They're impossible.

They really don't represent the majority of religious people in this country. I think what we need to to is find someone who can contextualize progressive ideas with the language of the new testament. You know, helping the poor, working for peace...all that stuff Christ said. It won't be easy since the whole idea of 'morality' has been hijacked by the religious right, but I think that's the best road we can take, and the only way to get a big enough block of the religious voters without sacrificing our ideals

Just the point I've been trying to make; I don't have any ideas for "how", though.
Frogtutor

they reject reality, reason, logic.

Fuck 'em. They can pray for food and medical care.

It has to come from the pulpit, not from us. They look to the ministers, preachers, pastors, and priests for guidance.

So, unless and/or until we get more of these spiritual leaders to speak up, it's an exercise in futility to reach 'them'.

For every 'one' that is reached, ten or twenty have been brought to the fold.

BTW, have you heard about "Hell Houses"? I just learned about them a week or two before Halloween. Now, THAT'S some scary shit! :scared: :scared: :scared:

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=8953

I do have a new product to offer them.
Rapture Koolaid.
Just drink the rapture koolaid and off you go to meet your maker.

End of problem:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

It won a Pulitzer Prize for History in the early 60's. Brilliant analysis of fundies.

If you know the story of Adam and Eve....they were tempted to eat from the tree of knowledge, and once they did everything was changed and they could not turn back. I believe that for the evangelicals, Bush is the tree of knowledge, and the GOP tempted them to eat from it.

A little background....

I'm not a Democrat. I come from a LONG line of union dems and was one long ago, but the party left me by become Republican-lite during Clinton, so I left it. I'm certainly not a Republican however. If I had to put a label to my political beliefs, I'd say I was an extremely left leaning anarcho-redneck with libertarian tendencies.

I didn't vote for John Kerry. In fact, I didn't vote, period. Mainly, I was so disgusted by the way the Democrats behaved during 2000 towards Nader and the attempts by them to keep Nader off the ballot in 2004, that I sat this one out. I live in a safe state so it didn't matter.

Bush, while he scares the living shit out of me, I see as a more honest version of Kerry. They're both going to screw me in the end, but at least in the Bush version, he's so ham handed about it, it blatantly obvious that I'm being fucked. They both supported the same things that I disagreed with, so I was left with the choice of which white rich skull and bones asshole who is going to fuck over the world should I choose to rule me. So, I abstained.

That said, I thought long and hard about why the Dems lost this one and the 10 most important things they can do to win.

1. Stay as FAR away as possible from ANY Hollywood celebrity for 2 years prior to the election. Most Americans couldn't give a fuck if you know Babs or Sean or whoever and in fact, are less than impressed if you show up in their company.

2. If you're gonna try to pander to the rural folks, don't go hunting unless you normally do. And if you do go hunting, don't go scurrying back like a rat to sign the gun ban. It didn't fool anyone. In fact, the best response to the whole gun issue is: "I'll protect the 2nd amendment the same as I'd protect the entire bill of rights." or something like that. In fact, run pro-gun democrats (like Dean) and watch the red states turn blue.

3. Don't run anyone other than governors and vice presidents. Senators always get creamed. This is common knowledge. In fact, I challenge anyone to name the last president who wasn't either a governor or a vice president. It was a while ago...

4. Stop running wealthy Catholics from MA with the initials JFK. Both times you tried it, they got murdered (one literally, one figuratively). Quit now. Besides, while the majority of the Protestant denominations pretend to like Catholics, the fact is, a good chunk of them still dislike papists.

5. Stand for something. Even if you don't think it's popular, stand anyhow. Make your explanation simple (enough of this nuanced crapola).

6. There is nothing wrong or disgraceful with getting into a knock down drag out fist fight. Don't be afraid to be partisan. In fact, require the candidate to say "fuck that, I ain't reaching across the isle!"

7. All those red states. GO TO THEM! You never visit them and then you wonder why you get creamed in them. DUH!

8. Listen to what the other side calls you. They're giving you free criticism. If they say you're a flip flopper it's because you are.

9. Appeal to your base and your base will get your back. It's that simple.

10. Fuck over your base and don't expect them to show up at the polls. Example: Don't go asking the queer folks for money when you won't stand up for them.

However, maybe liberal Christians need to take the approach St. Paul did with the Gentiles. He made converts by meeting the Gentiles at a place they could agree on and then through persuasive words led them to Christianity. Remember he was a Jewish scholar and well indoctrinated into the techniques of teaching and proselytizing. Although I think St. Paul distorted the teachings of Jesus somewhat, maybe he was on the right track.

Epistles anyone?

Short of bankruptcy, a draft or divine revelation, there's no way. Trust me, I grew up with these people. It's pointless.

They must be driven from us.

As an ex-fundy, I know. Breaking through that brainwashing is next to impossible. Concentrate on people who don't filter everything through a ludicrous world view.

LH

...if it got organized and put on televangelism shows of their own. Otherwise, forget it.

:)

Real Bible readers will eventually get this.

Bible says political fusion with the church is the "Harlot."

www.libertywhistle.us

they're not about to let go. They just wanna flush the world.

They're christian zionists. They want the rapture.

An amazing 50% of U.S. christians now identify themselves as evangelical and compatible with the radio preachings of the dispensationalists.

And the radio preachers are so amoral, so flush with power, they're not about to follow Jesus.

He bought and paid for them. They aren't going away until someone takes away those tax cuts. They are brainwashed by thier pastors! I read the Bible alot. I have used every passage I can think of to prove my point to them. The fact of the matter is the Bible is open to interpretation. The real message of Christianity is that Jesus was persucuted by BOTH his church and the POLITICAL leaders of that time. The Bible is a story that warns not to follow either blindly. Only God has the answers. However, they seem to neglect those warnings completely. There is also a specific passage in the Bible that warns of signing any knid of oath. I tried to argue that point to all those oath swearing attendees of Bush rallies. The only thing I can say is that these people are sooooo eager to BELONG somewhere they are willing to overlook any and all great Bible passages to do so! Somehow WE have to give them a place to BELONG!

...but true evangelicals, can.
Use the Ten Commandments.
Thou shall not murder (the 'kill" word was wrongly translated, since mankind kills everyday--in order to eat!)in particular.
Tell them that nowhere in the Bible does it say that abortion is wrong.
Tell them that Jesus said {paraphrasing here} that "he who does to the lesser among us, does unto me."
I am a Christian, although not an indoctrinated one. I left the churches because I got tired of listening to their doctrines that have nothing to do with Christian values, and Christ's teachings. Nothing.
Explain to them that even Jesus favored separation of Church and State (remember the "give to Ceasar what is his, and to God what is his?), and that any laws by governments allowed to take root under God never supercede His divine laws (they always try to come back with God being the one to appoint governments) much like State laws under Federal laws are trumped by Federal laws where there is direct conflict.
That usually shuts them up.

They could be as nice as you please, and would help you if you were in trouble. So long as your conversation does not venture near politics or religion or what they call morality, they are just regular people.

But the moment you do cross that line, their eyes become opaque, and they spout canned rhetoric spawned by their 'pastors' and literal translations of the Bible. At that point reasoning with them is absolutely futile. I have heard them argue points of view (for example, the world was created 6,000 years ago and there were no dinosaurs) that they KNEW were absurd. Yet as if programmed, their mindless babble and recitations continued. It was indeed scary.

Look, we've got to fight fire with fire. If we can't turn this election around with a recount, or even if we can, we HAVE to start to work on the mid-term elections, to get back the HOUSE and the SENATE. If we can't accomplish a decent recount and get Kerry in, then we must do what we can to tie Bush's hands, with the mid term elections.

Now, towards that end, I propose that we get down and dirty and do what the Pukes do. For those of you who disagree and think that we should take the "high road," I will tell you that if you're in a fight where someone kicks you in the balls over and over again, sooner or later you are ENTITLED to kick them in the balls BACK.

I, personally, am going to use my computer to print up fliers about every Republican candidate running for re-election having a homosexual lover and ask my fellow "brothers and sisters in the Lord" to pray for him. I'm going to put these fliers under the windshield wipers of all of the cars in the lot of the local Fundie churches in every area that I visit.

And PLEASE, my bi and gay friends out there, don't take this as a negative comment about your sexuality. I am only trying to turn these peoples' hate back at them--exactly where it belongs.