I'm a Changed Man, Thanks to This Election

I have strived to be a moderate. I've always believed that no one person, or even one paradigm, has all the answers. In fact I, like most moderate Democrats, have adopted conservative ideals like striving for a balanced budget, for instance. Bill Clinton proved the merits of that to me.

So here I am, in line with at least half the voters (again), depending on how much fraud there really was in the election, and I am feeling totally disenfranchised. I am in the vast majority of voters in my state, Illinois. I have a President who is a divider, not a uniter, claiming that he doesn't have to listen to me any more (as if he ever actually did) because he has a mandate.

Moreover his supporters are all clucking about how Democrats are now dead and how Democrats have to figure out a new direction.

I look and see that our New Deal has only made this nation the greatest nation on earth by empowering the middle class. I see the pukes only wanting to destroy everything and bring us back to what we were before the Great Depression. And, to add insult to injury, I am arrogant because I don't agree with them.

I almost can't believe I'm saying this. I don't want to say this, but I am a changed man. I think my differences with the right are irreconcilable. I am ready for a divorce. I cannot compromise with any group that cannot see fit compromise. I cannot work with opposition that sees fit only to ridicule and deride, based on nothing other than their own homespun, ad hoc, piece of shit philosophies of limited government and no taxation.

I think we need to agitate for secession. I'm actually serious. They should go their own way and drive themselves to ruin, and allow us to carry on the great traditions that brought us here. I'm tired of sending our tax dollars to red states only to get scorn and disdain in return.

My only real concern here is what to do with nukes. Any ideas?

because we can always make more, and the bombs are built in my home state, California. Let 'em keep the bases in their states. Except for Cali, they'll be a buffer state between us and Mexico. They get no submarines. We split the Air Force. They get NASA Houston and Cape Canaveral, but in exchange we get all the carrier battle groups, keeping us a dominant naval power. This keeps us in the space business, since we still have Vandenberg AFB (where the spy satellites are launched) and Edwards AFB. Silicon Valley and the aerospace business are in Cali, and most of the rest of Big aerospace is in New England.

There'd be trade-offs, but we could figure it out. We'd have to keep most of the conventional military hardware, since it would be predictable they'd start an Arms Race right away, and they'd be a scary military power.

That way, they can never be used against us.

it wouldn't be right.

I'm not suggesting cutting all ties here. Our frontier should be unguarded and there should be no tariffs. I'm not at that point, yet. The arrangement should be just enough so that they can do their thing and we can do ours.

They are a scary enemy though. I have to ponder this a bit more.

you're doing the right thing by coming here, we're all in this together, we'll get through it, and we'll all be better for it not sure how long it's going to take, just know you've got friends here.

I read a lot. This is a great site and yes, it is always home.

Let just ONE person say anything about this election to me. On the Sunday before the election, a Catholic running for Congress was outside our Church passing out literature. I said, "Are you a Republican?" He told me that he was and I said, "Forget about it" on the way in to mass.

My new bumpersticker is going to say, "59 million Americans chose to reward failure."

Seriously, i really love this idea it is PROGRESSIVE. It would be like changing a flat tire and getting back on the road again.
I hope to see politicians take up this banner and strike out for that something bold and new.

A nice symmetry, I think.

any more than they're going to let the Iraqis elect whoever they want in January. They have you, they're going to keep you. They can take your money and force their religion and their values down your throat. What makes you think they'd let that go?

Welcome to my world (I live in Texas).

Cary, I'm from Chicago and damn do we feel angry, confused, shocked, appaled, slightly enubriated, and alone. I now consider myself a Chicagoan or Illinoisan first, then American. However, it hasn't become so bad that a secession is needed, I propose that we be like JOAN OF ARC and change things from within. Plus, we are already in.

I think we're the center of the progressive movement right now. We should have a rally here or something.

be successful. It is a bold statement and if we make that statement it will set them back. They need some humility. They need to be set back.

The fact that you are in their world is a plus. Keep on keeping on!

I like Texas too.

The economic neo-cons in both the DLC Democratic and republican party are probably not as opposed to secession in the future as you might think, and it is actually already possibly on the drawing board.

If you look at politics in Europe, since the creation of the EU, struggles for autonomy within states have become irrelevant as the overarching state has been constructed. The UK has let Scotland gain its own Parliament and home rule. The Republic of Ireland no longer cares much about reclaiming Northern Irlenand from the UK. The Czech Republic let Slovakia go its own way peacefully. The Basques have drastically stepped down their campaign for independence. <Obviously Yugoslavia was an exception to peaceful devolution.>

Why are struggles for secession in Europe irrelevant? Because there is an overarching state -- the EU. What difference does it make if Northern Ireland is part of Ireland or the UK if they are all part of the EU, for example?

The same is happening here and the economic neo-conservatives of the DLC and the neo-cons of the republican party are on the same page on this. First NAFTA made Mexico, Canada and the US essentially one economy. Soon, Free Trade Area of the Americas will incorporate South America. One North and South America are governed under one corporate economic mega state who gives a fu*k if Jesusland is separate from the United States of Canada?

Only anti-neo-colonial resistance in South America seems to be against this trend.

You do understand that the neocons WANT a tactical nuclear war in the Middle East, right? Much cheaper than a conventional war.

I have never changed my beliefs. Thought myself a moderate liberal - then reading more positions here, called myself liberal period. I stayed away from "progressive" because of the "they are all the same" connotation in 2000 (nader hijacked it).
At this point, I have no problem calling myself a progressive liberal. Considering how the center keeps slipping to the right though, Arlen Specter seems to be the new left, I am probably some extreme left....

my thoughts on this are that i believe it's more or less true: that the EU provides an umbrella and the net effect is that other participating EU countries sort of water down their own sovereignty a bit. But I don't think this Federalist system is quite as simple as that.
What i believe, is that in order for a system like this to succeed those nations that participate must of themselves, be confident of their own sense of identity, confident of their culture, their history and be mature enough to allow a Federalist system have a say in their affairs. Or at least they're willing to forgive a certain amount of nationalistic instance to reap the monitary rewards the EU provides them.
But i think those places where the people do not meet the above: places where people haven't enjoyed self-determination, the EU doesn't resolve their grievance. Places like Scotland for example where they've been denied real self-determination via Britain, and Wales i think too. This is why it's important for places like Scotland to have it's own Parliment. Wales will probably get one too.
For them, the EU is just another layer of foreign influence taking decisions that affect them while providing them little say. That's probably a little bit harsh but i think it's more or less true.
I don't agree that the EU resoved things in Northern Ireland. That community that felt grievance in NI did not feel any better about their lot in life just because another silly flag flew from some pole and decisions were being made in Brussels AND London.
It was only the fig leaf of a semblance of self determination (the Northern Ireland Assembly) that enticed that community enough to stop blowing shit up. The politics of the Republic of Ireland are another matter altogether which i won't go into here.

There are many other examples of this theme: Slovakia, all the Balkan states, former Russian republics..
This is of course, not to say that Federalist systems don't work, just that they have to be comprised of places that are willing participants.

The European example doesn't exactly fit the USA obviously. Because Europe really does consist of patches of cultures that (in most cases) evolved their democracies through the centries and are now willing to participate in a Federal system, whereas the USA is predomainetly a homogenous bastardized breed for former europeans that were always thrust into a Federalist corporate meat grinder.
But i think secession can play a role here. In one way, i feel that such a huge Federalist system is contrary to the natural order of things, and the only way to keep it glued together is thru iron-fistedness, repression, etc. Or i suppose thru brainwashing and getting people to be dumbed down flag wavers. I mean how often do we really expect places like Chicago to allow themselves to be governed by the likes of these inbred rednecks from the deep south? Or from cowboy country..?

What real interest do Illinoians have in being part of some meglo-maniacal, hyper-power Federalist government that bullies it's way around the globe and into peoples homes, making enemies of everyone.
Does Osama Bin Laden really have a grievance against Illinois?
Do the Palestinians?
The Iraqis?
What is the benefit?
Who benefits right now?

http://www.secession.net/

check it out.