Anyone else feel like a dem in limbo between extremes.....

Although I respect the fighting spirit of the people who are pursuing the recount/voter fraud aspect of things, I just have not yet been convinced on that end of things. Flame away (believe me, I know you will), but while I think the system has flaws that need to be fixed and am all for that, I just haven't seen any solid evidence to convince me that anything happened that would have totally changed the results of the election. Doesn't mean we shouldn't work to fix it, I'm just not completely in the fist-in-the-air, "Kerry won!" or "Recount!" camp.

On the other hand the whole apologetic, going to therapy, completely defeatist, "we need to figure out how to reach out to the values crowd" portion bums me out just as much if not more. We have nothing to be sorry for or apologize for. We don't need therapy, we had our heads on straight and voted accordingly. We just need to figure out a better way to get our message out. We don't need to "reach out", they do. It's this whole "we did something wrong" mentality that I think is going to be our downfall every time. You can be damn sure that if their side lost they would'nt be apologizing.

But it seems like everything is geared towards either of these two crowds and I can't seem to bring myself to put myself in either camp. Am I alone in this?

if you don't investigate? Do we have to have solid evidence before we investigate? Or do we think that "the process" (firmly in the hands of doctrinaire Bush supporters) is going to police itself and dutifully let us know if it turns out that there actually was vote fraud in Bush's favor?

The evidence I have seen has done nothing to convince me. It shows me that the system in general is less than perfect and we would do well to fix it, which I'm all for. But it's done nothing to convince me that the irrgularities measure up in size and scope to the difference by which Kerry lost.

It hasn't been proven, but there is plenty of evidence that something fishy is going on.

Raise your voice, you don't have to choose any sides right now. We are all going to be different, but we are all basically fighting for the same thing. What can you offer that you are not already seeing? That's the gift you can bring to new Dem energy...

we were all depressed for a week and many are just now coming out of the fog. it's still way to early. give the man a chance to do what he promised in a slow, methodical, honorable and intelligent manner.

Forget the vote stealing distraction. Forget the "values" distraction. Forget about candidates and elections alltogether.


MOVE THE COUNTRY LEFTWARDS!

Provide a poltical framework into which
can step real progressive/liberal/leftwing political candidates.

They would not have to explain liberal/progressive ideas; they just walk right in and push buttons we have established in the public mind starting right now.

THat is how the rightwing propaganda machine moved America to the right over the last 3 decades.

We develop a prototype infomercial for late night tv and one for AM radio. These informercials are political in nature but are not
about any candidate or any party. They talk about the rationale
and reasoning for liberal/leftwing/progressive ideas. They talk
about why a progressive taxation system with high income taxes
on the upper income earners and the wealthy is a good thing. Show
how European nations, canada and Australia use taxes to provide
universal healthcare, longterm unemployment payments, welfare
for all poor people, tuition free (or low tuition) college, and free
(or nominal cost) child care (note: I am obviously not saying that
each of those nations provides all of these services for their
citizens).

Show how progressive taxation is the CORE of the progressive/
liberal/leftwing political philosophy. Show all the good things
about taxes. Tell people about how a REAL liberal govt would
work, as opposed to the faux liberal DEmocratic Clinton
Administration.

Then take these prototype informericals to organizations like
moveon.org and ask them to promote them on their websites and
in their media interactions.
On the website ask for donations to pay for air time on late night
tv and AM radio. Set up the collection so that almost all the
money goes to the actual air time. No expensive media consulants
or media buyers. No celebrities. The infomercials would be made
using all amateur volunteers. In the informercials ask for more
money to run more spots.

Concentrate on running infomericals in these states: OH, WI, MN,
PA, MI, IA, other swing states, etc. Especially in cheap rural
media outlets.

Continue this as an ongoing project.

THEN, after a couple of years of running these spots, then progressive Democratic candidates can run on a progressive platform and win.

My feeling is that things certainly do sound suspicious enough to warrant further investigation. How, I don't think that anyone can say definitively that yes, there was fraud, unless things are investigated to determine if there was.

However, I think it is right to demand that this investigation is done, and loudly, because otherwise these possible problems will be swept under the carpet. If this is not done, how can we ever trust elections again. And yes, I hope it changes the results, but if not, at least we need to know one way or another if the results can be trusted, and what we can do to have secure elections.

I agree with you, that I don't like how some of the democrat party is saying what do we need to change about what we stand for in order to attract the people who voted for bush. I would say something more along the lines of, what do we need to do to the media, so they report correctly what the message of the democrat party is, and that they correctly report on dishonest things the bush administration is. Maybe it is naive, but I really believe if may people knew all of the lies the Bush administration told, and the crooked things they did to get elected (if they were elected) that they could not vote for these people. I have friends who are republicans - I know they are good people, who could not possibly support people like this, if they knew what they were really like. I hope for stations like Air America Radio to become more widespread, so people can hear the truth about the republican party. Right now all they hear are fox news and Rush Limbaugh - no wonder they are brainwashed.

Meg

I've accepted that ** is president. I feel that voter fraud should absolutely be investigated ... but I'm also considering the work ahead based on the what we have right now. If proof of fraud exists (and it does) then there is not much point in arguing "what did we do wrong?" We need to uncover the discrepancy, see the real numbers (if possible) - then set a new course. I am disappointed that some dems are being defeatist, insist on finger pointing or criticizing without having all the information, or suggest that we need to abandon certain issues (therefore turning our back on part of our constituency). I think that the problem is that we don't act much like we really believe what we claim. I feel that with the wide range of people that we seek to protect - we need to keep the message simple ... Opportunity and equality for all. The best way to reach out to people who have similar ideals (but have given in to fear and talking points/misinformation) is to lead by example. Remain resolved. Our party represents tolerance ... we need to show it, especially to those who aren't so. Educate people, without being overtly confrontational. We did a great job this election and while I might be reeling with disillusion, my faith in my party, my candidate and my ideals has not changed from what it was before November 2. I will continue to fight.

...and vote into your black box and just trust that your vote means anything. Meanwhile, others will work to expose the inexcusable flaws in the system and work for change.