HELP! need intelligent response to freeper relative argument!

I know nothing about tax code, but this is what I got today. I don't have time to research right now and want to blast him. I just c&p'd this long and silly thing, sorry if there is a better way to display. He also sent me one about comparing the redistribution of wealth to the sharing of GPA in college. :grr:

edited to add: warning, I was insulted in the first sentence! And, they guy who sent it is very smart so I need a leakproof response to shut his condecending mouth. Please help me! I am furious with him for multiple emails over the last few months that I suffered alone!

Understanding Tax Cuts (author unknown)

“It’s just a tax cut for the rich!” claim the politicians, journalists
and knee-jerk liberals. Because it appears to be valid to the simpleminded,
it is often accepted as fact.
If you want to understand how taxes really work, please read the
following.
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner and the bill for all
ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it
would go something like this:
a. The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
b. The fifth would pay $1.
c. The sixth would pay $3.
d. The seventh would pay $7.
e. The eighth would pay $12.
f. The ninth would pay $18.
g. The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
That's what the ten men decided to do. They ate dinner in the
restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until
one day, the owner threw them a curve.
"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce
the cost of your daily meal by $20." Dinner for the ten will now cost
just $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, so
the first four men were unaffected. The first four would still eat for
free.
But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they
divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?
They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted
that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would
each end up being paid to eat their meal.

So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each
man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the
amounts each should pay.
a. The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing.
b. The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
c. The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
d. The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
e. The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
f. The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four
continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men
began to compare their savings.
"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He
pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar,
too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!"
"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back
when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get
anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat
down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they
discovered something very important. They didn't have enough money
between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, is how our tax system works. The people who
pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax
them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not
show up anymore. In fact, they might start eating overseas where the
atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

I need to tell him he is stupid in a much more eloquent manner.

That is just like the counting back of the fingers

10, 9, 8, 7, 6, and look on your other hand, and 5 makes 11

"Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not
show up anymore. In fact, they might start eating overseas where the
atmosphere is somewhat friendlier."

The tax rate in Russia is 15%. Why the fuck don't all rich Americans move there? (it's also 15% in Iraq, fwiw). Damn, there is nothing worth than whiny, rich people whining about how fucking overburdened they are. Tell any of those rich mofo's that I'll gladly swap them my tax rate for their salary. See if you get any takers.

NGU.

right click - delete

I hate analogies. If someone wants to talk about reality, let them cite facts from reality. Analogies add loaded language and situations and cloud wahtever is being discussed (unless they are simple which this one isn't).

Bush is not fiscal conservative -- Bush is a fiscal liberal.

it has heated up and I am tired of him feeling superior. he's an ass and I want to call him on his tired arguements with irrefutable facts.

http://www.bigpath.net/politics/Stats/RTV1_Federal_Deficit/RTV1_Federal_Deficit.pdf

Made by a fellow DUer.

I didn't like that analogy, cuz it sounded kinda silly...
But I know one fact you can throw at him..
with social security tax, if you make $80,000/year or more you are only taxed for social security on the first $80,000... so the richer you are, the less of your money is taxed.
I think that little story is oversimplified because the rich get loopholes that the rest of us don't. If that were true, then the middle class wouldn't be the supporting tax base of this country!

thanks...I am compiling

The "tax theory" on that was, since there is a cap on the income that a retired person receives there should be a cap on the amount they pay. For instance, a person's social security income would be the same if they made $80,000/yr or $160,000/yr or $8 million/yr.

Just one of the many screwed up things about taxes & social security. That said, when FDR started it he was starting from scratch, and the way it works is based on that. The first people that got SS hadn't paid anything in to it...because it was brand new.

I understand that...but of course, all things must change. If, say for example Bill Gates can't save for retirement or afford to pay more social security tax, then he has some major problems.
One thing I have never been able to understand, since I was in middle school (i'm now 23) is how 1. now, people who never pay in - never worked in their life deserve social security and 2. why people who are richer than most of america get social security when they retire, even though they don't need it.
I think social security is good and greatly needed; I don't agree with privatizing, but I do think some changes should be made to reflect how the world has changed...

In the real world

#1-4 eat scraps
#5 eats gruel
#6 eats Ramen noodles
#7 eats canned chili
#8 eats a hot dog
#9 eats a Ham on Rye with a side of fries

And #10 has Filet Mignon and a twice baked potato.

good point and so simple.

I like that one. :yourock:

It won't last. Believe me.

have the privilige too. the rich that pay 49 would be able to write off $20 and pay only $29 and the middle group would have to make up the cost, as would the poor thru other taxes and adjustments

and they dont they have attorneys to make sure they dont.

this mans presidents own words

Through a variety of clever ways, the rich avoid taxes almost completely. Your relative could read David Cay Johnston's Perfectly Legal

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=ZYw1o5WkzQ&isbn=1591840198&itm=1

FROM THE PUBLISHER
The rapidly widening gulf between the super rich and everyone else is an American tragedy. Pundits have raged about it, but until now, no one has explained exactly how it happened, why it's not a normal part of capitalism, or how much damage it's really causing -- not just to the poor, but to 99 percent of all Americans. Whether your family makes $30,000 or $300,000 a year, you are being robbed because the IRS and other institutions have been systematically corrupted -- under both Republican and Democratic administrations -- to serve the needs of people who make millions.
If you're the kind of person who works hard and plays by the rules, prepare to be outraged. Perfectly Legal will show you why the American Dream is turning into a lie. This explosive book, by an award-winning investigative reporter, reveals exactly how the tax code and many other laws have been twisted over the past three decades to subsidize the richest and most powerful fraction of 1 percent of our country.

What we have is a system where the poor don't pay much or anything in income taxes but are subject to FICA. The middle class pick up the rest of the tab, and the super rich get off without paying.

they walked to a box under the xway.
the fifth man rode his bike there
the sixth man got a ride to the low rent apt where he lives with his wife, parents and 6 kids.
the seventh drove his late model car to his apt where he lives with his struggling little family worried about his health insurance.
the eighth drove his average car to his house in the lower middle class suburbs.
the ninth drove his new car he is making payments on to his mortgaged house in the upper middle class suburbs.
the tenth had his driver come pick him up in the limo and take him to his million dollar house, the one in the posh upscale neighborhood, he might spend the weekend at his apt in new york city or a week at his house in aspen. cant decide.
he makes 400 x the salary of his average white collar employee (the eighth man) and 1500 x that of his laborers men 1 - 5. he will never have to want for anything nor his children.

That's not the case. The rich get a society which delivers so much more to them in terms of wealth, health and happiness that it isn't outrageous to ask them to pay into the government a little more for the continued provision of an infrastructure which allows them to reap such great rewards from society.

A truer analogy is that the rich want a dinner from Chez Panisse for the same price the poor are paying at McDonalds, and they want the poor to make up the difference in cost.

Also, paying for the infrastructure of America isn't an act of voluntary consumption. It's an assumption of the burden of reproducing the best society we can create. It only makes sense to ask people to make contributions to that burden according to their means. You can't ask the poorest to pay a larger percentage of what they have so that the rich can contribute a much smaller percentage. That shifts wealth to the wealthy in a way that is very destructive to social and economic structures. You can't put the yolk of providing for society entirely on the people who work the hardest for the least reward or you will see society crumble down -- which is exactly what has happened to every single society which has shifted that burden on to the middle and working class in human history.

You can have your relative check out.

www.responsiblewealth.org

The first "numbers" part of the analogy is really a pretty accurate description of a progressive tax structure (the higher your income, the higher the percentage you pay in taxes; 10%, 15%, 20% etc.).

The "story" part is where it has weaknesses, and the analogy falls apart. The government can't be compared to this "restaurant", the eating arrangement is unrealistic, the violence doesn't fit, and the weathiest diner's ability to not participate at all is a stretch at best.

If you don't know much about taxes I'd advise you don't get into that fight. I'd suggest you consider 1) agreeing that that the current tax system is screwed up but the story doesn't solve it's problems and 2) spend some time learning about our screwed up tax system. It's a big part of any political system.

Why the rich man should pay more taxes in reality, not some wierd restaurant story.

---in fifty two, highest tax on rich, was ninety perct.

Now, a third of that is the rate... thirty five perct.

If ikes rate today, fed would get extra three trillion for tax pool.
In fiftytwo, no big flight overseas by disgruntled rich, as suggested by the wierd restaurant story.

Whole fed budget is about 2.4 trillion. So resuming Ike's rate, would double funds for feds... for pothole repair,... or total end of poverty {cost is 300 Billion for that}.

Reaganomics cripples the economy. Wages now lower than when Reaganomics began, 1980. {adjusted for inflation}.

Reaganomics always was just an excuse,... to cover for giving taxcuts to the rich. Wages down $1500 under this bush. A million jobs lost.

Reaganomics is a failure.

Time to resume Ike's rate, to spark the economy. Ike's rate gives the feds money to repair the middle class, which produces all GDP. We had prosperity in fiftytwo. Middle class spending creates new jobs.

There is the SPARK to the economy. Repair, as in free health care, free college, good crime control, regulation of stressful ripoffs, fix potholes and bridges, etc.

=== i hope this large framework of facts takes care of that flawed restaurant story. Flaws: the rich flee overseas.. not in fifty two:Flaw -- the rich spark the economy... no, the middle class produces the whole GDP. Repair the middle class, and you spark the economy.

The middle numbered eaters in the story produce all the cash and food, so even if no. ten left, they would have produced their own meals and enough cash for them.

Yet, the Republicans have rigged it so that the red counties are the ones who believe they are the aggrieved taxpayer.

Where did you get the numbers that the Blue states pay 90% of federal taxes and the red states only pay 10%?

Do you have different stats?

That assumes that the only tax which each person pays is the federal income tax. This says nothing about each person's tax burden as it relates to state sales taxes, property and school taxes, payroll and SS taxes, or even local fees for services (like garbage pickup fees in most cities). Tell them they have no understanding whatsoever about the tax consequences of living in America.

And give them these-

Matthew 19:21-24 "Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

James 5:1-6 "Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you."

Revelation 3:17 "You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked."


Tell them those hate tax and spend liberals are simply helping them get into heaven by confiscating their wealth.

Hey, separation of church & state ;)

Seriously, nobody will throw your butt in jail if you don't tithe, so it's not a good argument. Give unto Ceasar & all that.

tend to also be fundies. It's good to remind them that the rich really aren't so cherished by Jesus as they are by repub leaders.

this has been all over web for a while now. consistantly and sonstantly the repug has to send these stupid ass mass mailings of others words. i never here them spek for them selves or express their own thought. it is a cult like mentallity of warpness going on here. i ignore their mass mailing and tell them they they want to talk about something i have higher expectations of them than someone elses word.

out of paying any taxes. So, according to your story, the 10th man brings his accountant and eats for free while the other 9 pay for his meal.

so both the 10th man and accountant get to eat at the expense of men 5-9.

How about this one:

Ten men went to dinner.
The first Five had the complementary bread and water.
The Sixth had a side order of fries and water.
The Seventh had a small house salad and water.
The Eighth had a chicken fried steak, some fries and a soda.
The Ninth had a nice steak and salad, with a glass of wine.
The Tenth had a five course meal with salad, soup, lobster and steak, desert and coffee.

When the check came, the tenth picked it up and said,
"Well there are ten of us and the bill is $100.00. That will be $10.00 each."

This is terribly flawed also, but it's no worse than the other one.

(1) Although the division of the $100 tab may be a fair representation of a graduated income tax (with an income floor and no deductions), the distribution of the $20 reduction is contrived to create the illusion that the "rich" man is getting a small reduction. This is done by distributing the reduction to each man in proportion to the base amount that each paid (remember, we also use fractions of dollars), THEN rounding the results for the first nine men DOWN to whole dollars, and allocating the fractional parts of their dollar costs to the tenth man, resulting in an artificially high percent reduction for men 5-9 and an artificially low reduction to man 10. The effect of this math trick is further exaggerated by the small numbers used in the example.

(2) Your relative put no thought at all into his e-mail (simply passing along an old bromide), and therefore does not deserve an intelligent reply.

On edit: Since I seem compelled to fool around with the numbers, I also note that, even accepting the dollar figures given in the analogy, the 10th man's reduction is 16.9%, not 16%. The guy who created this thing was a real dick.

They should be expected to pay more in user fees.

And tell your relly that a cheap analogy doesn't make up for the constant pick-pocketing of the average American's tax dollars.

NGU.

After dinner, the poorest four men have to excuse themselves and go into the kitchen, where they work as prep cooks and dishwashers.

But on the night that the restauranteur only charges the party $80 instead of $100, he enters the kitchen and says to one of the four men, "I'm going to have to let you go, because I've been charging my preferred customers less for meals now. Sorry." So now, one of the four guys is unemployed.

The same thing happens the next, and the next, and the next night after dinner, until all four men are unemployed. Each night, the owner pulls aside one of the men and says that because he's charging his preferred customers less, he can't afford to keep these guys on staff.

The four men go looking for other jobs, but all the other restauranteurs say the same thing. "I cut prices for my regulars, so I can't afford new help."

Each night, they return to the original restaurant for dinner with their six companions. Because they don't have to pay, it's now the only meal they can afford. Each night, the tenth guy gripes and harumphs because he has to pay $49. Each night, even though he's now paying less for dinner, he makes more demands on the waitstaff: "More breadsticks! More iced tea! This isn't as big a steak as I got last night; maybe I should start eating somewhere else! More coffee!" After dinner, he stops off at a store, and finding that he has a spare $10 in his pocket that he didn't have to spend on dinner, he buys a can of boat wax for his yacht. Then he drives his shiny Hummer to his 12,000 square foot luxury home, falls into his custom leather recliner and watches satellite TV on a wall-sized screen.

After a few weeks of desperation, the first four men go to the original restaurant owner and beg him to charge more for dinners so they can work again. The owner shakes his head, and says to them, "But guys, by saving my regulars all that money, I'm giving them the freedom to hire you. That's how you create jobs. Don't worry, once the meal discounts 'kick in,' there will be jobs everywhere."

Several months later, the four jobless (and by now homeless) men go to their rich dinner companion's house. By now, he's saved a lot of money from discounted restaurant dinners, and he's trying to decide how to spend it. The four men beg the rich man to hire them to take care of his house. The rich man laughs. "You've got to be crazy, right? For what it would cost to hire you four, I can get 20 illegal immigrants from Mexico to clean my house. And besides, it's my money, and I don't want to spend it on employees. I've decided to buy myself a really cool private jet." The rich man gets up and escorts his four visitors to the door. As they leave, he yells out, "Hey, you know, if you guys went back to college and studied real hard, maybe you could get jobs at the airplane factory!"

The four men just look at each other. One of them has a quarter in his pocket; the others have nothing. College, indeed.

The rich man did buy his jet. He flew to a beautiful tropical island in Asia. He went to a fancy restaurant there for dinner where they only charged him $3 for a sumptuous meal befitting a king. The waitstaff were young girls in chains, and the owner forced them to bow in front of the customers and do whatever they wished. "Wow," thought the rich man, "the atmosphere really IS friendlier over here. Should have come here years ago!" Unfortunately, the rich man contracted food poisoning and died a few hours later. No health department on this island; nobody wanted to pay for it.

so no jobs here for the four jobless.

Otherwise, superb story Pen.
welcome to DU. Stay and post a lot.

Suppose you had $100 with which to pay 100 people for work they'd done. If you distributed it the way people really get income in this country, it would go like this:

You'd give

50 people an average of 26 cents each.

another 25 people an average of 79 cents each.

another 15 people an average of $1.41 each.

another 5 people an average of $2.14 each.

another 4 people an average of $3.62 each.

the remaining one person $20.81.

And only the first 75 people would have to pay Social Security taxes on all their income (the 26 cents and 79 cents).


These are from Adjusted Gross Income figures published by the IRS.


Your relative thinks the guy who gets the $20.81 needs a break?

That if two of the poor men got food poisoning then they wouldn't be able to go to the doctor because they don't have health insurance.

I'm not up to par on the tax code myself, but I know that that is certainly true.

Nice term for that is

"Medically indigent"

Since the dr sent bill collectors after these two, professional bill collectors, hammering on their door and yelling "deadbeat" so the neighbors would hear, the stress on the two sick guys was so hard that it killed them. Later, reposession repo men came and took all the furniture from their houses. Their dogs became strays, which the restaurant owner kicked away from his trash cans. Wimpering, the dogs curled up and died of internal hemmoraging.

I've received this email numerous times over the past couple of years. It is pretty much based on the fabrication that people who are not rich are money-hungry assholes looking for the next handout, and the rich guys are benevolent christ figures, unabashedly dispensing cash to quail the raging middle class.

It's just another attempt for rich, white republicans to further perpetuate the claim that they're the victims of an unfair economic system that has made them stinkin' rich.

By now, we all know the ten-men metaphor Hannity has been using to sneer at liberals' objections to tax cuts on the rich.

Sean Hannity being a right-winger and an admitted fascist, he tends to leave out a few things. Here's the whole story:

Every night, a group of ten friends met for dinner. They'd served together on the USS Forrestal in Vietnam, so no one thought it unusual that four schoolteachers, a garbage truck driver, a machinist, a plumber, a chiropractor, a lawyer and the president of the bank dined at the same restaurant every night.

Because teachers don't make as much as garbage truck drivers, who don't make as much as chiropractors, and because the restaurant's owner was also a Vietnam veteran, a special selection was prepared just for these men.

The schoolteachers each received a pizza and a soft drink for free
The garbage truck driver got a bacon cheeseburger and a beer for $1
The machinist ate chef's salad and a glass of white wine for $3
The plumber got a sirloin steak, baked potato and a glass of the house red wine for $7
The chiropractor had steak and shrimp, steak fries and a bottle of the house red for $12
The lawyer ate prime rib with a well-dressed baked potato and a bottle of French wine for $18
The bank president had veal cordon bleu, two lobster tails, chilled vegetable appetizer, three fine brandies, a bottle of the finest white wine in the cellar and a Punch After Dinner cigar for $59.

Everyone was happy as hell. The schoolteachers loved pizza (and loved the fact that it was free even more), the plumber thought seven dollars for a steak dinner was more than fair, and none of the other nine could figure out how the bank president managed to eat that much food every night. Coincidentally, the total bill came to $100.

Now, while all this was going on, the restaurant's management noticed something: People thought that if the bank president ate at the same restaurant every night, it must be an excellent one--and the restaurant's sales soared. We must do something for this man!

They fiddled with his menu a bit; now he receives escargots for his appetizer course, a Caesar salad prepared tableside and instead of a Punch After Dinner cigar, he's lighting up a genuine Cohiba Esplendido, rolled on the thigh of a Cuban virgin and smuggled into the United States at great risk and expense. Also, his bill has been reduced by seven dollars.

The owner walked into the office and asked what his maitre 'd and executive chef were doing. When he found out, he was furious. "I'm a brownwater sailor! If it weren't for those ten men, I wouldn't be here today. Cut their total bill to $80!"

Well, let's see...we reduced his bill by seven dollars and ran up his food cost by twenty. If we are to break even on these ten sailors, we'll have to play with the food cost on the meals of the other nine.

Hence, the schoolteachers have gone from a whole, freshly made pizza to half a frozen one (and the kind you get at Wal-Mart for a buck apiece, to boot), the garbage truck driver's also getting frozen pizza, the machinist's chef salad has become a "vegan" chef's salad (the meat, eggs and cheese have been removed from the recipe), the plumber's steak is now as tough as the soles of his combat boots, shrimp has become a memory for the chiropractor and the "well-dressed" part of the lawyer's baked potato is now a lump of the cheapest margarine they can find.

As the other nine watch the waiter whisking and tossing the bank president's Caesar salad, they look at their suddenly diminished rations and wonder what's up.

The restaurant manager comes out to mollify them. "Men of the Forrestal! You're all receiving a reduction in your bill--well, except for the four schoolteachers who didn't have anywhere else to go. The total bill's now $80! Doesn't that make you feel good?" The garbage truck driver holds up his hunk of frozen pizza. "I liked what I had before. If I pay you a dollar can I have my burger back?" 'No, that's not the way the cut works." The same response answered the request for little hunks of meat for the machinist's salad, a meat tenderizing hammer for the plumber's boot-sole steak and some sour cream for the lawyer's potato.

It was nine carrier sailors against one riverine warrior; the nine won in the end. With his arm twisted behind his back, the owner admits to shortchanging everyone so he'd still make a little profit after giving the bank president such a huge reward for making his business so successful.

The nine took action. They grab their former friend, beat him until he's in critical condition, and throw him through the front window.

Things are never the same at the restaurant after that. Now that the bank president no longer eats at this restaurant, diners are eating at the hospital's cafeteria. (If the bank president eats there every day, mainly because they won't let him leave until all 212 of the bones his buddies broke heal, it must be a good place.) Within a few months, the restaurant fails and is sold--to the nine blue-water sailors who threw the bank president out the window. Their first acts are to change the name to "The Nine Swabbies Grill," to post a sign in the window reading "no dogs or bank presidents allowed," and to throw away all of the frozen pizza.

Business is good now at The Nine Swabbies. After all, if the bank president used to eat there, it must be a good place.

Ummmm, ok. So the lower FORTY PERCENT of wage earners in the US pay NO income tax, and the next 10% above that only pay ONE PERCENT income tax? Etc...

In what fantasy world is this?

-Grant

While it is actually about how much each group pays toward the total tax revenue for the country. I would check if the figures for total tax revenue are even correct.

Very, very deceptive.

There are many good retorts in your responses, I love DU! I will compile and send away, I knew he was way off and it was a shit story, but didn't have the ammunition. Many humble thanks from a math idiot.