Wes Clark is an Idiot

On Tweety, the discussion turned to gay rights and Clark says it really hit home with him when he heard some black female fundie preacher say "God made Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve."
Wes said this really made him understand the folks who don't like gay marriage.

Putting aside that Wes hasn't heard thr old Adam and Steve chestnut which has been around for 25 or more years and has been used by a succession of homophobes, I think Wes just screwed his chances of running for President again as a Democrat. This one is going to take a lot of time and effort to explain away, and I doubt gay folks and friends and family of gay folks are going to respond to this kind of naked ignorance/bigotry.

:wtf:

Wes Clark said there is a long way to go regarding gay marriage or civil unions and used that quote to emphasize his point. Given that 11 states banned gay marriage last week I'd say he's right.

understand the concept.

What the HELL IS WRONG with DU'ers sometimes.

I swear to fucking dog.

he said it's when the issue really came home to him.

WATCH THE REPEAT.

He was referring to HIS "enlightenment". ANd if it was his "enlightenment" of how bigoted others are, that's what he should have said.

He didn't.

It showed him how fucked up most of the people are in this country.

What's your point?

"this really made him understand the folks who don't like gay marriage....and goddamn I agree with then 100%"

That's not what he said either. But that's what you're implying. Deliberately. Even though it isn't honest.

All you had to do is listen to Wesley Clark on the campaign trail to hear his position on gays. If you can't be bothered to do that much investigation before posting bullshit, then you're not worth anyone's attention.

the complexities of the interview kid.

Perhaps this will help:


http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/907/907_clark.asp

I agree.. look the man is saying...

I DIDNT REALIZE PEOPLE THOUGHT THIS WAY>>

AS IN>>

I DIDNT REALIZE THERE WERE SO MANY BIGOTS!

There are some fucking assholes around here deliberately trying to act like fucking idiots to try and stir up stupid shit.

Don't let it get to you.

I've let it get to me. :P

Ok, I'm leaving and hiding this thread now.

It's all about context.

From my homo perspective, I understand what Clark meant. "Bumpersticker logic" is a biiiiig tool for keeping the argument simplistic enough for most Republicans to understand..

Like there's anybody who's never heard the "Adam and Steve" line.

I think you are being too harsh on Wes. he has been an advocate for gay rights.

Made me cringe and I think he knew he stepped in it by Tweetie's letting the "joke" lay there like a festering turd.

me that Clark isn't commenting on the content of that quote, but the context. He's saying that a core Democratic demographic (a black woman) sees this not as a civil rights issue but as values/religion issue, which shows what a struggle it's going to be for Democrats to explain the core issue to voters.

I think you're overreacting.

He set up the "joke" by saying that a minister in an African American church he visited summed up the matter of gay marriage best by saying, "God made Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve". Now he may have been ATTEMPTING what you suggest, but it was a miserable failure if that is the case.

on edit: I will add that I personally don't think Clarke is anti-gay, but the comment was in poor taste.

But the quoted part above suggests where Clark was almost definitely headed.

He said the view of the religious was "brought home to him" when a woman in a black church... made the Adam & Steve remark. He was talking about where the country is on gay marriage. Not saying these were his own views.

his view of the religous. If he did, then I missed it. I'm gonna watch it again on the replay later tonight. You may be right.

That's what it was about. The view of people on gay marriage. Since he was talking about a woman in CHURCH, well duh, that's the views of the religious. Criminy.

like the one he used, instead of saying it came home to him how the country felt about this when he heard it, he should have said what a shame that people are bigots, or i disagree with what she said, but their bigotry came through, or when i heard it, i understood the passion on the other side, even though i think it's wrong

he said NONE of those things. He just repeated what this woman said and then said it "really came home to him" listening to her.

Anyone who is interpreting this as his way of saying that the woman was wrong but he understood her is free to interpret it that way, but those are not the words he uttered. He spoke as if his feelings had been changed by listening to these people.

He said all of that before he made that comment. In fact, he used words incredibly close to "understanding the passion on the other side", right before he made the Adam & Steve comment. It was the whole point of his remarks. The country has some pretty strong feelings about gay marriage, whether one agrees or disagrees with those feelings. It's a fact. That's all he said.

characterization.

I hope Wes is running for Senator in Arkansas. If he is, he can't win in Arkansas being pro gay marriage. Sad.

It was a valid observation on how some people react to the gay marraige issue. He didn't say he agreed with it.

It seems to me its better to know how people think, than just ignore it.

Besides, the "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" stuff doesn't make sense. If God created the whole wide world, he created both straight and gay.

Maybe God is watching how straights treat gays according to his greatest commandment, something about loving your neighbor as yourself. It seems to me some straights prefer hate instead.

some understanding of others and tolerance of their opinions; I didn't hear him on Tweety so will have to watch it later to hear what else he had to say. I don't think it was bigotry, knowing other statements that he has made, but will reserve judgment.

I would like to think that tolerance of dissenting opinions is still a Democratic virtue; God knows the ReThuglicans have no time for anyone who does not toe the party line (unless you're a celebrity, and then they will shamelessly use you to whore for them even if your views have no place in their 'big tent....')

bank on it.

(Obviously)

Plus Tweety cut off whatever else he was going to say.

get it straight

Kerry has clearly stated more than once that he supports civil unions but not same-sex marriage. Personally, I'd respect him more if he did support it, but whatcha gonna do? :shrug:

Also, where did you learn that "gays voted for Bush in droves?" I find that highly unlikely!

enlighten us, please.

elections like recently every vote counts.

so DROVE it is

for Kerry than gays with the exception of blacks and, possibly, jews.

Learn where your bread is buttered. It ain't cool to offend people.

in droves...were any demographics done on this? In what regions of the country did they vote for Bush in droves. I am as suspect of this figure as I am about the so called youth vote not materializing.

full context please. :)

Sure, it's rather simpleton to say that such an age-old commonplace homophobic slur would be enlightening. But even if he said it helped him "understand" the opposition to gay marriate, does that necessarily mean he was sympathetic to that position?

By the way, i have never been a HUGE Clark guy. Just looking for answers...

if he said he heard some white guy say "blacks like fried chicken and have too many babies" and so he can really understand why some whites think blacks are inferior. It all came home to him.

with a vigorous defense of tolerance and equal rights in light of such narrow-minded, hateful attitudes he deserves big time scorn.

tweety smirked and that was the end of it.

Not at all cool on his part.

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It would be like him saying, the views of Oklahomans were really brought home to me when Coburn said "blacks are genetically predispositioned to die early." And wow, Oklahoma elected that guy. If someone made that comment and connection, doesn't mean they approve of racism.

The fundamentalist blacks aren't any more forgiving of homosexuality than fundamentalist whites. Sorry. :shrug:

...Billy Graham Sr if I remember correctly so it's been around for much of my 63 years on this planet. That has also been a standing bigoted joke against gays in military social circles for decades. Maybe Wes Clark plans to pull a Zell Millar manuever and move over to the dark side. Military pensions for retired generals are a little lean without big corporate connections. But I can forgive Wes Clark if he admits that he did it jst to pull Tweety's chain.

and believes, you can't compete -- period.

I saw that interview and when he said that he shook his head and looked amazed.

Wes Clark was on the cover of a Gay and Lesbian Magazine for Christ sake. You obviously are trying to slander Wes Clark or you cant read body language.

Was how deeply ingrained the PREDJUDICE is against gay folks from many sectors of society...NOT that HE wanted to be a homophobe!x(

He's already stated what he thought of that predjudice when he ran in the primaries..and reitterated it several times since. He said how much he detested it in the Army when he was in...and what he told an officer about confronting the possibility of a child of his being gay. Gen. Clark is NOT a biggot in any way, and he's most certainly NOT a homophobe, either!

He's a brave, patriotic veteran who believes in equality and NOT in pre-emptive PNAC wars...a helluva lot more than I can say for the homophobic, AWOL little moron occupying the West Wing right now!:mad:

B-)

was in favor of possibly getting rid of the "don't ask don't tell" policy in the military and having a more open gay policy. So, I do not think that he is ignorant or a bigot.

He was trying to explain what this minister was saying and how it clarified how these people felt about the issue when tweety cut him off right after he made that comment. It was obvious he had more to say. Stop bashing him and think for a moment.

Wes Clark is hardly an idiot, and his position on gay marriage was that they should not only have civil unions with full rights, but that if they wanted to get married, that was entirely up to the church that did so, it wasn't the government's business.

finish a thought which might make the soundbyte ineffective.

And distort the whole thing.

:eyes:

...that I don't think Clark would be the best person to run at the top of the ticket, but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit on the sidelines and watch people make ridiculous arguments tearing down good democrats and try to drive BS wedges into the left without commenting on it. I've noticed that 65% of what's happened on DU in the past week tends to be one or both of those things. I guess the sharks smell the Democratic blood in the water.

thanks for tellin like you see it. We may see differently on "the top of the ticket" but we still have to stick together as a party.

BTW, you might want to update your avatar now, I just changed mine back.

Cya.

Thanks!

By the way, I got an email from Elizabeth Edwards today, & I sent her my best wishes for a quick recovery.

She is a terrific lady, & has lots of spunk!

When one of us feels the nee to talk about "channeling babies."

Jesus was a young man who was never married, hung around with a pack of guys.

Now what was that all about?

You obviously know nothing about Wes Clark & his positions...

Wes is not the idiot...

Wes Clark should be our candidate in 2008. In fact he should start campaigning immediately.

different that what anyone else has said.

Please let these people have their moment to do what ever it is they need to do to blame whomever it is they need to blame for what ever it is that needs a scapegoat.

Clark has done alot for Gay soldiers in the military. He's counseled and wants people to serve who want to serve. HE's done more good things than many people for gays in the military.

you shouldn't take things out of context!

He has the concept of "Don't Ask, Don't Act Up" for gays in the military, for instance.

...I saw the interview, and he had a look of disbelief on his face before he said that. The point he was trying to get across, is that was an insight as to the WHY evangelicals are against gay marriage, not that HE was against gay marriage. For corns sake the guy is a Rhodes Scholar, and has been on the cover of Gay and Lesbian Magazine.

because you don't like their views? Get a grip.

You get a grip!

because he was unfair to Wes during the primaries. hmmm...I bet he was tonight too. I did not have to watch what he said to know that the man is NOT a biggot or an idiot.

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was said. Based on things so far, Wes has some 'splainin to do.

If you think differently, love to hear it.

read the rest of the thread rather than tag-teaming with friend Ruggerson.

about Clark-bashing.

I was responding to the call to lock the thread because the poster didn't like the content. That's where my "FUCK THAT" was directed.

Damn, he's good lookin'! :loveya:

After the Adam-Steve comment, Clark was getting ready to say something else, but big mouth Tweety interrupted him and asked him about giving advice to the troops in Fallujah.

Clark also said that most of the country is not ready for gay marriage YET, but that civil unions could be a possibility.

Clark was just saying how there are still alot of people opposed to gay marriage and the Adam-Steve comment is used to justify their position. Unfortunately, we'll never know what else Clark was about to say after that.

I think he was going to make a point about God DID make Adam and Steve!!

Pay more attention to the "context" next time.

I saw that -- I don't think Wesley Clark meant to be bigoted. Matthews didn't let him finish the story. He has spoken about this topic before & expanded on this story. That was part of a story on how to get from one view to be more accepting. He's trying to reel support in...

It takes a very concentrated and deliberate act of extreme willpower to twist what was said into the interpretation you've given.

I salute you with three fingers.

It sounds to me like Wes understands that there are indeed people out there that don't like gay marriage. Well, DUH! Guess what? There are many people that, sadly, lose sleep at night over this bullshit wedge issue. I personally don't care what two consenting adults do with their lives. I've got my own life to live, and I don't understand why people have to stick their noses in everyone's business. But I do understand that there are people with that mentality.

And so does Gen. Clark. I don't see anything bigoted in realizing that.

and you couldn't be more wrong.

He was using it to introduce a point, and Matthews cut him off, so he didn't get to finish it.

Clark isn't a bigot and he sure isn't an idiot.

I knew it.

know Wes Clark's thoughts on the discrimination of gays instead of taking what he said on Tweety's show out of context. Wes Clark gave a very eloquent answer to a question on gays at that debate which left NO question on which side of the question he is on. He is, in no way, in the anti-gay corner!

And I won't hesitate to post the transcript when its available to show that you have distorted Clark's response. You must not have been payin attention during the primaries. Clark was one of the most open and honest candidates about Gay rights issues in the past election, certainly out of the top 4 candidates. He really believes in civil rights. He will be there when GLBT need support in the political arena. It sounds to me like he was making an honest assessment of our country's current morass on this issue.

...made the remark. THAT was a light bulb moment for him in which he fully understood how deep the hatered is --- if you have a so called person of God, who is also from one of the most discriminated classes in the country preaching this stuff - its not an easy issue to reconcile with a segment of society.

He didn't.

breathe in a paper sack for a few minutes and tune down your outrage. He was not allowed to finish his point.

Up until tonight I had no feelings about Clark either way. I would have supported him, had he gotten the nomination. I thought he was a good man, not a very experienced politician, who seemed to be a quick learner on the campaign trail.

What he said tonight was idiotic, despite all the spin and dodging you see here.

And if his character is anything like the rabid, ugly wolves his supporters seem to be, it's going to drive even more people away.

If you were really paying attention, you would have seen that Tweety did NOT let him finish. He was about to say something else, but Tweety cut him off!

All you had to do is listen to Wesley Clark on the campaign trail to hear his position on gays. If you can't be bothered to do that much investigation before posting bullshit, then you're not worth anyone's attention.

You have CHOSEN to interpret comments that could be taken two different ways in a way that COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS STANCES AND POSITIONS CLARK HAS REPEATEDLY GIVEN.

And I therefore question your motives, dub you a disrupter, and invite you to please embrace my hairy ass in all its grandure.

God didn't create Adam & Steve? Actually God did create both Adam & Steve along with everyone else. I saw the interview and thought it was just another example of the dem leadership's effort to pander to the right. First Clinton, now Clark.

when the host of the show cuts you off.

I saw it , didn't like it and have as much right to say so as anyone else has to express their opinion.

way. You two seem to want to take Clark down for some reason.

doesn't make one wrong. This last election is proof of that.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,:spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

Where in the interview did you hear Clark say that "God didn't create Adam and Steve" was HIS position?

I didn't think so.

Do you understand how offensive it is? Not that it matters, but it's the exact same slur that basically ended Donna Summer's career about twenty years ago, when SHE became "born again".

Think before you speak. Especially if you want to be a leader.

Because you wouldn't be acting this way after several of us who watched the same damn interview saw that Clark was cut off before he finished the story!

he did not mean.

I'm reacting to what I heard.

If he comes out tomorrow and clarifies it, I'll be more than happy to listen to what he has to say. But he did NOT say that he disagreed with this woman, and those who are intepreting it that way are doing so with the HOPES that that is what he meant.

We KNOW what his position is on gay marriage.

and tell him not to use age old bigoted offensive slurs to make a political point. I'm sick and tired of my family being under attack by one nitwit after another. It would be nice to see ONE of these politicians stand up and say, you know what, this discussion about the negative political ramifications of gay marriage sucks, because MORALLY it's the right thing to stand for and these are real Americans, with real lives and we've got to stop treating them like political footballs.

It gets real old after a while.

or you're a troll.

Have you even bothered to read the links posted for your edification and enlightenment? Do you understand that you're attempting to argue with people who know Wes Clark's positions cold? Why is there no concession on your part that you could have misunderstood his remarks?

and I heard what he said. And you're not going to convince me that he said "black" when he said "white".

GET REAL!

Clark was repeating what someone else said and commenting on it. GOD DAMN IT!

but a bigot he ain't.

You know you just WUUUUUUUV Wes Clark! :D

DTH

we just have to give him time

interpretation of a political situation ever posted on DU.

:hurts: :hurts: :hurts: :hurts: :hurts:

Wes is a pragmatist. He said that the country clearly is not ready for gay marriage.
I think that the country pretty well made that point on election day.

Wes was proactive for gay rights when he was in the service and is today.

So calm down.

If Wes decides to throw his hat in the ring again, I will be right there with him.

He is the simply the one.

n/t