Is there proof of voter fraud?

Solid proof?

The only reason that any government would force a voting system that could be clandestinely manipulated and not possibly be recounted is for the purpose of committing voter fraud.

I know y'all were not born yesterday. Do you understand me? Please, please don't be brainwashed idiots. No matter how they spin it:

The sole purpose of using easily hackable, non-recountable voting devices is to be able to control the outcomes of elections. To commit voter fraud.

Please, tell me you are not STUPID enough to believe that there is any other reason.

Okay? It is really very simple to understand.

Am I wrong?

I love you all, and only care about what is best for my country and my people.

(Sorry "Johnny Cougar", nice try)

We are all computer security professionals, and we all agreed.
Designing security into a system like that is not rocket science.
The only reason NOT to do it is if you were up to something.


   "committed to helping to deliver the electoral votes of Ohio to the President"
      Walden O'Dell, CEO

You, see, when you ask "is" there proof of voter fraud, it all depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

Is there voter fraud that can be proven to an impartial scientist, statistician, or citizen? Yes.

Is there proof of voter fraud that would be accepted by a puke-controlled Congressional committee, a puke federal court judge, or the SCOTUS pukes who got us into this mess? Not if it bit them on the nose.

Is it nutty to think that people who would lie (Iraq ties to 9/11, WMD, etc.), cheat (for many people their supposed tax cut turned out to be a rebate, i.e., they didn't save a dime in taxes), steal (where did our surplus go, and what happened to all the money that disappeared to create the deficit?), torture (Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, etc.), and kill (Iraq, and quite probably 9/11), might also rig elections? I dunno, is it?

I wouldn't put it past this goddamned bunch, in fact the only action I can see them taking in this election is one of fraud. I just can't imagine that they would sit there and "let democracy do it's finest" when it is the only way to remove them from power. No, they would never do that, it is in their nature to be evil and dishonest as much as it is in the cobra's nature to bite you.

With that in mind, nobody has proof of this fraud here, or else they would be in contact with the FBI and the MSM this second. Furthermore, I don't see it as beneficial to be dispersing theories of voter fraud when we have no proof. Most people can't think backwards like we can and ask themselves, "If Republicans run the elections process in Florida and Ohio, manufacture the machines that have no paper trail to count the votes, and write the software that supposedly secures the vote "counting" effort, what on God's green earth is stopping them from stealing the election!?" If nothing was stopping a power hungry Machiavellian like Rove, one would have to assume he goes for the power at all costs.

But people can't think like this, and saying we know there was fraud, even if we do, gets us nowhere. Fraud is a trigger word that immediately turns off partisans of a different feather to this whole story. If we just say the system is insecure, and that terrorists can hack into it as easy as their children's home computer, they will immediately work with us to change this horrendous voting process.

Unfortunately, there is next to no way we can prove any fraud if it was done on the paperless ballot machines, short of someone confessing. With the way administration whistleblowers have been treated in the past, that is not likely to happen.

Hopefully, Rove (or one of his cabal) tried hacking into the op-scan machines or central tabulators, too, and tried to skim off votes that will be turned up in recounts. This, however, will have little likelihood of leading back to Rove or his minions.

My plan is to support recount efforts, and get information out about how ridiculous central computers tabulating all the votes are, and how irresponsible it is to have people vote on computers open to fraud. As for accusing the Republicans of fraud right now (at least to the media), I will not do so until more convincing evidence comes up. Making sure this won't happen again is the key.

Is the question really about the evidence? I don't think the burden of proof rests in the blogosphere. A legitimate election is demonstrable because a tangible record of the will of the people has been made. In our current system we each know in our gut we can't possibly know the truth anymore. Not after an earlier bogus election, a large-scale domestic attack with myriad unanswered questions, and a war based on a fake threat. The nationwide cognitive dissonance sometimes makes it hard for us to admit to ourselves some pretty obvious things.

Let me say unequivocally: We have no BASIS for confidence in the legitimacy of the results reported in US elections.

The No Confidence Movement recognizes and rejects the real-time manipulation of public attitudes accomplished by American media coverage shortcomings. For more information, please see: http://guvwurld.blogspot.com.

like the 124 year old lady who voted, the letters that told people they had been taken off the voting lists, or gave them other misinformation, and in some places people have actually been charged with crimes.

But as for the widespread fraud that we believe occurred, we don't have the smoking gun yet, just a lot of circumstantial evidence.

For example, we know that in many districts people complained that when they tried to vote for Kerry, the voting machine kept giving their vote to Bush, and we know that in those same districts the results showed that many Democrats apparently voted for Bush.

Now, if I said I was going to do something criminal (like the owner of Diebold who said he was going to do everything in his power to deliver the Ohio vote to Bush), and the crime actually happened, I know that I'd be the prime suspect even if nobody saw me do it. If the prosecutors then realized that I had motive and opportunity to commit the crime, and that I profited from it, I'd be in jail right now awaiting trial, proof or no proof.

But when you find the proverbial smoking gun, and it turns up in the pocket of the prosecutor, he is unlikely to bring charges against himself, even if everyone saw him commit the crime and he knows damned well that he's guilty as hell. For there to be justice, you have to have checks and balances, like some other prosecutor who could bring charges against the bad one. That's what we don't have.

We know there was fraud in Florida in the 2000 election. We know that they illegally removed people from the voting rolls (and they still haven't let those people get back on the rolls). There were investigations and we know exactly what happened. And the woman who was mostly responsible got elected to Congress. The people in power now don't punish crimes that benefit them, they reward them.

Proof is worthless without the power to do something about it. In a democracy, nobody is above the law. In a fascist regime, the law is what the dictator says it is, and the only way crimes against humanity by the regime ever get prosecuted, is if the regime crumbles and the dictator is ousted. Ya wanna post a poll asking which one we've got?

From the conservative Indianapolis Star:

Vote machine error brings recount in Franklin County

By John Strauss

November 12, 2004

A programming error discovered in voting machines has triggered a recount of the Nov. 2 election results in Franklin County in southeastern Indiana.

A Democratic official, whose party was shortchanged in the mistake, said the only change in the results might come in a County Council race. State officials are investigating.

"The Indiana Election Division is aware of the problem," said Kate Shepherd, spokeswoman for the agency. "We are awaiting more information from the county and the vendor about what exactly happened."

The error caused votes for a straight Democratic ticket in Franklin County -- selecting all Democratic candidates -- to credit Libertarian candidates instead.

<snip>

Ripley, Scott and Switzerland counties are in the 9th Congressional District, which had the state's closest congressional race this year. Democratic Rep. Baron Hill lost to Republican challenger Mike Sodrel by just 1,430 votes.

http://www.indystar.com/articles/1/194039-4421-102.html

Only it was not voter fraud. The voters were not the perpetrators.

It was Election Fraud - On a grand scale. Election fraud done by a verity of means in various combinations of shenanigans.
This fraud was even admitted to by the CEO of Diebold, a major supplier of voting equipment.
We have in a swing state(again), a republican Secretary of State, who is also a bu$h campaign manager. Can you say conflict of interest? Maybe? Just maybe? Well then, how about Treason against the citizens of the United States of America?

These are High Crimes and misdemeanors committed for the 3rd election in a row, brought to by the same nice people that brought you illegal wars, an empty treasury, and shifting the tax burden from the rich to you and I. What more proof do you need?

And we still have respected members of DU thinking it is just business as usual? What kind of proof do you need that something very wrong is going on? Our job it to prove the obvious and make enough noise that something has to be done to imprison the perpetrators so it cannot happen again.

We have to get the Kool-Aid taken out of the refreshment area, folks. It's been poisoned. Quit drinking it.

Was there fraud, I think so. Was it coordinated and did it have a greater effect than usual? No, not that I can see.

Did both sides do it to some degree? Probably.

There is an abundance of irregularities and evidence of voter machines miscounting in various states to call for a re-count and therein lies the proof of whether there was voter fraud or not. Regardless of the outcome, whether it changes the results of the Presidential election or any of the other state elections is immaterial. Your question is misleading in that it demands proof prior to an investigation to provide proof. Why are some so afraid of a re-count, one has to wonder!

:eyes:

You only offer sassy comments to any of my posts. I haven't heard one opinion yet.

If you are so turned off by my posts, why do you keep responding and kicking them to the top?

No - there's no solid proof of voter fraud, however, there is enough evidence of irregularities/problems to cause extreme doubt in the integrity of the system.

No system will ever be 100% foolproof, but the system should be demonstrably secure. The process should be transparent to create trust in the results. The people in charge of elections should not be elected. The rules need to be clear and not subject to change for at least six months prior to the election.

There must be a way to do a recount.

And they have kept that up being the most secretive and the most deceitful of ANY ADMINISTRATION EVER.

FRAUD, you want to know if there is PROOF of FRAUD???

FRAUD AND DECEIT HAS NOW BECOME THE WAY THE SYSTEM WORKS.

80% of Americans' ballots now vanish into Republican-owned proprietary software, leaving no paper trail. These machines cannot be audited.

The machines are demonstrably hackable, and the variance between exit polls and their tallies suggests they were hacked. (A variance which does not exist where paper ballots were used.)

Your elections are now faith-based. Happy with that?

:boring:

Just remember, whether or not we can conclusively prove there is voter fraud in the 2004 election (an extremely assymetrical contest with the BushFascist machine), we must never lose sight of the fact that the entire Bush administration is a complete, utter, and illegitimate FRAUD upon the American people and the entire world (who are not fooled like Killers for Khrist in the US).

And that is the inherent problem with non-verifiable BBV.