I cussed out someone I've known for years

It was on another board, but we're a long-standing tight community and have had several real-life meetings over time.

I've known that he was one of the few Republicans in our mix, but thus far he USUALLY stays out of our political discussions unless Clinton is mentioned (typical, no?).

Anyway, lately Bush's "mandate" has empowered him (and a few others so things are getting heated) and he posted some idiot drivel about "we didn't start this war but we sure as hell better finish it" complete with fifty thousand exclamation points and several typos (there was more, lots more - I've seen more intelligent arguments on Free Republic if it gives you any idea). But that paled in comparison to one part of his post - in summary: that of course Iraq had no WMD, the Bush administration knew that from the beginning and the only reason we invaded Iraq was so we could send the message of "we're here, we're the U.S. and FUCK YOU" to the Middle East. And he is completely ok and supportive of that.

I told him he was a racist bigot and he should go fuck himself.

The fallout has been pretty bad, ironically by several on "our side" that feel that resorting to name calling and insults doesn't help anything. I contend that he didn't present a valid stance and that extremist views such as this need to be MARGINALIZED and no longer given any credence by responding to them intelligently - because he will just ignore that anyway like he always does. He's an enabler, part of the problem, unable to be reasoned with so from now on I won't hold back calling a spade a spade.

I have gotten some support, but it's been limited.

Thing is, it was totally out of character for me and I think that has a lot to do with the shock. Our 'group' is pretty unique in that it usually discusses things very cordially (again, most of us are progressives that despise Bush) even when debating with the other side. But that was before the election when most of us were still giving them the benefit of the doubt - hoping that if they became informed they'd see things differently.

This happened Wednesday and I still don't feel bad about it. I apologized to the others that my admittedly harsh comment upset them, but not to the person I directed it at nor for the comment itself. But the fallout from people I like and respect - and who share the same views - has kind of surprised me. I knew my comment would be a lightening rod, but that was kind of the point. But what's really shocking to me is that because of my comments, HIS outrageous statements are getting a pass and he's become the "victim". I pointed that out and even told people that this whole thing is kind of symbolic of what is wrong with us - it's a combination of the media syndrome (sensationalism over substance) and the PC factor (people on our side freaking out when anyone gets too passionate or things just get too damn real).

Opinions? Was I out of line for calling someone out for their racist, bigoted views?

But more effective marginalization may be accomplished by ridicule and getting others to laugh at his preposterous opinions, instead of cussing and swearing.

I typed it out and hit reply quickly without even thinking about it. It was so instinctive and real... which is I think why I trust it. I almost feel weird for not regretting it in the least (which is why I posted about it).

it's all part of the need for people to appease the right. They don;t know what trouble they are really in.

"We're here, we're the U.S and FUCK YOU."

and killing brown children is WHAT and does WHAT for the US.

to the others. But that guy had it coming to him. Maybe he will think about your comment and realize and think that maybe he is a racist bigot. That's the problem with most repukes, they don't THINK.

Good for you!

This is exactly why I've been avoiding several people I know, both friends and family, who for some unknown reason felt the need to vote for the shrub this time around.

Debbi

I can't bring myself to call my widowed mother.....I can't stand to receive emails from my younger sister in Calif. I completely alienated a former prayer friend, by sending her emails full of facts she didn't want to know while not responding to her very long explanations why she could find it Christian to have a "just war" and support Bush. Etc..... You know. It's so very sick.

When I drive down the street, I find myself assuming that the guy tail-gating me is a Bushie, and he/she is doing it because I still have my Kerry sticker on (I refuse to remove it until Bush is categorically proven the victor here....., besides, Oregon elected Kerry).

I find myself driving badly too, because I think, "Why the h... should I obey inconvenient driving laws when our "president" doesn't obey the Constitution??? (Of course, I always drive safely.....well, usually. The other day I cut in front of somebody who had plenty of room, but they honked at me like crazy. Maybe that was too reckless....)

Anyway, I hear you. Why do we have to be sooooo divided?

In all honesty, this part of his post is accurate.

<But that paled in comparison to one part of his post - in summary: that of course Iraq had no WMD, the Bush administration knew that from the beginning and the only reason we invaded Iraq was so we could send the message of "we're here, we're the U.S. and FUCK YOU" to the Middle East. And he is completely ok and supportive of that.>

He is a very scary Fascist.

We actually have a very informative PNAC thread in the very same forum. Doubt he's read it, but I digress. The point was that his support of such an opinion makes him a racist bigot.

Funny part? He hasn't argued that he's not a racist bigot and only seemed upset that I told him to go fuck himself. Heh.

if you had told him to go Cheney himself. ;-)

I think Dem's like to think of themselves as the "nice" party, where we don't do anything to anybody, even if they deserve it. Ya know. Also, they're mega-sensitive to the claims of the Right that we're dirty and evil and cuss and swear, whereas the Right NEVER does that, oh nooooo, never!

So..you stepped out of that illusion and made them see you and all of us are REAL, and that scares them. It's just the same as the Right, only they'll get mad at me for saying it. I've been on both sides, so I've seen it. We don't want our illusions crumbled by someone we think is just like us...ya know.

You were perfectly right. I might have said, though, "Go Cheney yourself." I think that carries more weight these days.

Your "friend" is scared, because he knows Bush deserves to be impeached. If not worse. That's why he came out the way he did. Folks here probably want to see us stand in solidarity without blinking an eyelash while the Bushies writhe, you know. But it isn't going to happen, because we're human, and will react humanly.

That's why we're all in this together, because we're human. They're not.

You were probably over the line with the go fuck yourself sentiment (even though it's the epithet of choice for the current administration). But it does remind me of a story a friend of mine told:

He was in church, talking about some good cause or other, trying to drum up a little support and a little action on its behalf. He rounded off his remarks by saying that during the time he was speaking, another 10 kids had died of malnutrition. But that the bigger tragedy was that people just didn't give a shit. And that the biggest tragedy was that more people were probably offended that he'd just said "shit" in church than that kids were dying of easily corrected circumstances.

Similarly, I'm sure most of the people on the board you mentioned are upset and offended by the continuing atrocity being pursued in Iraq in their name and with the tax dollars. But they're even more upset and offended that you named it for what it was, and told a supporter of the atrocity to fuck off. Which is worse?

same lines.

I had a fallout with a neighbor who can't seem to (won't) keep her kids and dog out of my yard. I have had it up to my neck with her and finally "laid down the law" to her a few weeks ago. Well guess what, neighbors are taking her side like I am the big meanie. Of course these same neighbors who are supporting her don't have the 70 pound dog or the kids running around their yards every day or any day. Maybe if they did they would get the picture that this woman is breaking the pet leash laws and the constant trespassing is also breaking the law. SO here I am the big mean bitch who finally told off the person breaking the law and I am the BAD GUY. Some people are weird is all I can say.

same lines.

I had a fallout with a neighbor who can't seem to (won't) keep her kids and dog out of my yard. I have had it up to my neck with her and finally "laid down the law" to her a few weeks ago. Well guess what, neighbors are taking her side like I am the big meanie. Of course these same neighbors who are supporting her don't have the 70 pound dog or the kids running around their yards every day or any day. Maybe if they did they would get the picture that this woman is breaking the pet leash laws and the constant trespassing is also breaking the law. SO here I am the big mean bitch who finally told off the person breaking the law and I am the BAD GUY. Some people are weird is all I can say.

...getting a bit 'Apocalype Now', innit? "We can butcher women and children - but we can't write 'fuck' on the side of our helicopters...'

You 'Merkans are really hung up on swearing. I remember a DU thread a couple of weeks ago where people were getting upset about the use of the 'c-word'. I understand that in the US it has specifically mysoginistic overtones - like a stronger version of the 'b-word' - but in the UK, while it's still the most offensive word you can say, we mostly don't get too upset about it. In Scotland particularly, it's become a regular part of conversation... "Oh yeah, I know him, he's a really nice c**t". If you go to see the wonderful Jerry Springer: The Opera, which I'm sure most DUers would enjoy and which is massively successful in the UK, you'll hear the c-word literally a hundred times...

And over pureness (think cursing, Janet's nipplage) on the right.

Oddly enough, in this case the PC police decided to attack my comments and not the racist views.

Does he say how his pea-brain twisted the Iraq war into NOT being our fault?

1. All Muslims and Arabs are guilty. The entire Middle East needs to burn.

And along with the racism and bigotry, he'll have a side of either ignorance or viciousness (and judging by his comments, I'm guessing he'd order up #3:

2. He thinks Iraq had something to do with 9/11

OR

3. He knows they didn't and just doesn't care (see #1).

are the appeasers. The whole problem with this party.

going around saying, "What we have to do is become more like the Rethuglicans." God help America, if this is the best we can do to counter fascism!!!

Martin Luther King said it best: Silence is consent.

And some other famous person (whose name escapes me) also said it in another way: Those who do not speak up are assumed to consent.

Call that racist bigot a racist bigot. He should be proud of that label because he gets such a kick out of being a racist bigot. Ain't it funny how people want to act a certain way but then they don't want to be defined by their actions.

Wingnuts have a very clear, "black and white" understanding of the world outside their own communities. They fail to make the effort to engage or even consider cultures or ideas beyond their small world views. You may not get points for playing the role of teacher, but what's the point of that if your "student" doesn't want the lesson. It's simply time to call these creeps what they are: bigoted, war-loving American "love it or leave it" boobs.

You did the right thing.

I've stopped associating with those friends of mine who have expressed more tolerance of opposing and unsupportable viewpoints than I can bear. Those nambypamby idjits don't know the difference between tolerating a difference of opinion and enabling ignorance and outright hate speech.

I'm fucking sick of it, and I'd rather have no friends at all than wussed out "liberal" friends like that.

You might guess that I spend quite a bit of time alone.

:+

you are not as alone as you might think. I very rarely if ever speak to any of my family because of what is going on in this nation.
Even our D.E.C meetings are littered with appeasers, and it makes me ill, I've quit going.
And I as well associate with very few people anymore, particularly at work.

page I am on.

I get upset that some people have the right to vote (the ones who don't think at all but just listen to what their ministers tell them). Garrison Keillor recently did a talk show where he espoused taking the right to vote away from people who want a theocracy. His point was if they don't want a republic, which is what we have, then they should be disenfranchised and let them go set up a theocracy elsewhere.

but giving these lunatics our tacit approval is out of the question. We need to speak up, if only to inform them that they're wrong and completely out of line.

Polite silence is always read by these goons as approval and agreement.

However, don't expect to get through to them. Only when disaster hits them hard will they start to question this rubbish.

By the way, is he draft age?

I told him that while I know he's too old to enlist in the military he should definitely check into being a mercenary, especially since he doesn't want to pay for this war he supports with his tax dollars (he's one of those people that freak out over taxes).

My tact has been slowly dwindling and went out the window a week ago. If I didn't know him I may or may not have said it, but there's a history there. I know he's a hopeless case.

Especially Guardsmen & Reserves. If he really wanted to, he could probably do his part. Does he have children old enough to serve?

Politeness & reason are generally the best tactics, but sometimes you just have to say "fuck off"!

what's to feel bad?

i have always been taught to take the "high road" and not stoop to their level, but my god, sometimes it just has to be done!
I agree that when unintelligent babble comes from someone on such a heated topic, then really the only thing a person can do is tell them how dumb they are... and i think you effectively did that!
remaining silent never really solves anything and just makes others think they have won. and trying to reply with intelligent information doesn't usually work.
in this kind of circumstance, let your opinion flow - if they don't like it, to hell with 'em.

You said "fuck you" to ONE GUY.

He said "fuck you" to AN ENTIRE NATION OF PEOPLE.

Perhaps you should suggest that someone who is willing to denigrate millions of people shouldn't be such a big fuckin' baby when a little flak comes his way.

Getting mad at someone in a debate and yelling at them is something Sean Hannity does. I know debating right-wingers can get frustrating, however yelling at them only makes them feel like you don't have a rational argument. Instead you should've explained to him how the Iraq invasion was bad for America.

If he really thinks it's OK to bomb a random country to 'teach the middle east a lesson,' why bother?

and who cares what they think? RWers hate liberals either way.

Perhaps a glimmer of hope you'll convince him he's wrong. Secondly, you have to be able to understand why a person may have that view. It's silly to assume a person you disagree with is "the enemy" and/or stupid.

And he's been privy to those conversations and debates, it's not like he doesn't know any better.

If he would have presented anything that resembled something rational, I wouldn't have said that. If he would have presented what was clearly an uninformed, yet meaningful argument based on incorrect information/assumptions, then I would have debated him civilly.

He didn't do that. He supports carpet bombing the ME. HOW do you rationally argue with that?

I guess you just shouldn't have responded. All I can say is that by getting angry and cussing at him you're making him think his view is rational and yours isn't.

NO. Letting things like this slide are the reason why people feel unashamed for having these sorts of opinions. It's the reason why they've become louder and more obnoxious with them.

Things like racism against blacks and bigotry towards gays, for example, are considered taboo in most civilized circles. Gay bashing is making a comeback, obviously, thanks to people like him. WHY have they become taboo? Because people like that have had their opinions marginalized and demeaned over time by people calling it what it is and not beating around the bush. If we accepted their views as rational, or just simply ignored them, they'd fester and infect more people with hate.

As a side bonus, there's always the hope that a shocking statement like that might snap someone into reality. Make them wonder "WHY did they call me THAT?". If nothing else, maybe someone else reading might think about it. This also goes for people on our side, because I think it speaks volumes about how dire things really are.

I'm going to assume for now you're not a troll, and tell you that being nice (and silent) is not helping. OBVIOUSLY. I've had my head held in the mud for years now and these deluded views are directly affecting me and mine.

Even on an issue like racism I think it's better to ignore the person than to go crazy and attack them. If you really felt attacking him was the right thing to do then you wouldn't be seeking reassurance in this thread.

ignorant universe while I'm being polite. I'm just mad now, and don't want to hide it anymore. The reason that jackass got any respect at all is because our minds have been ruined by all the lies. In therapy, that's called "crazy making behavior". When your alcoholic dad keeps getting his way all the time. Or when the husband who beats his wife walks around acting like he's really a good guy. It makes you crazy, because everything that is really wrong is being presented as if it is right and acceptable.
You were not out of line under the circumstances. This is real serious shit and that guy represents the idiots who got us into it. I say let it be known that you are mad as hell and you aren't going to take it anymore. I can read your post and see that you are a thoughtful and caring person. Only bullies, hate mongers, liars and rich pigs would ever imagine identifying with the GOP. Fuck 'em all. They're stepping on my personal space now. Fuck them for that.:hug:

You'll appear reactionary and irrational and they'll appear rational.

Not only will this make the right-winger feel more rational it'll further radicalize the viewpoint opposing the war in Iraq.

If you go nuts and attack people it'll make people think opposing the war isn't a rational viewpoint.

Surely you jest!

The only people that dude appeared rational to were other racist bigots.

And it can't be said enough - if you are an enabler, refuse to reason, refuse to educate yourself or are driven by blind racist hate with no room for logic - WE DON'T GIVE A RATS ASS WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT US.

I said going nuts and attacking people for supporting the Iraq war radicalizes opposition to the war. Yes, I believe calling someone a racist for supporting the Iraq war is an irrational position.

There are many good reasons to oppose the Iraq war and racism isn't one of them. The response will be that it can't be racist to remove a leader who killed thousands of nonwhite people from power.

Read my initial post. Read the follow-up posts. See why he supports it. THAT'S why he's a racist.

He didn't make that argument you just made - but that is a very flawed argument in and of itself and I'm not going to bother with it because I suspect you're a troll.

You seem simply angered by any opinion remotely differing from yours.

I'll show you reactionary.

It seems your position is that our original poster should have, in the words of Bill O'Reilly, "shut up" about it.

Take the high road???? Get out!

Where was the high road when all you right-wing fascist evangelical republican gutter monkeys were talking about blue dresses, semen stains, and cigars?

Where was the high road when you were burning up bazillions of our taxpayer dollars with the Whitewater investigation that found no guilt or crime?

Where was the high road when your beloved cheat of a president stonewalled the formation of a 9/11 Commission and then finally funded it with pennies and bread crumbs, and then refused to appear before the commission, and then pussied out by inviting Daddy "Big Dick" Cheney along to hold his hand?

There is no high road for you hypocrite self-centered short-sighted fatalist gun jockeys. There isn't even a freaking map.

Oopsie! I kept saying "you" in the above paragraphs. I meant "the" and "they," not "you."

Of course I don't think you are are a right-wing fascist evangelical republican gutter monkey. But They are out there, you know, and you just can't be trusted. No, I mean, they can't be trusted. Silly me. You can't trust anybody.

Nothing personal. Please forgive. Jesus loves me. I'll accept Him yet again as my personal lord and saviour tonight and I'll sleep well. I've been born again so many times that I'm practically a fetus each morning when I awake!

Either I must think we should annihilate and destroy anyone who espouses any hint of being right-wing or I'm one of them. That's the type of paranoid and aggressive method of arguing Rush uses. Thanks for demonstrating your ability to debate maturely :)

I guess you think Barack Obama is a Bushie for also saying we can discuss issues without demonizing and attacking each other. The argument of "they attacked us first" only works with children.

Some people have been cutting off contact with Republican family and friends, others have let them have it, while most continue to suffer through continual provocation and insult. We are not allowed to go about our lives in peace and tranquility, and live like hunted animals now.

Here is what I did, which I don't necessarily recommend for anyone else.

I lived and worked in a 90% Republican community with a 90% Republican client base.

I recently gave it all up, went underground, and disconnected from everyone including family. Now, I communicate with them on my schedule, on my time, when I am ready to, and I control the context and the topics and the tone of the conversations. Where I am and what I am doing is my business, and the business of those whom I know I can trust fully as I choose to let them into my life.

It isn't so much a sacrifice as it was a recognition and adaptation to reality for me. If I can't live and work without having to continually be in a state of low level terror and wade through endless confusion and uproar, then that life isn't worth protecting.

I read an article by Sam Smith this morning that expressed what I feel about this. -

"We are overpowered and afraid. We find ourselves condoning things simply because not to do so means we would then have to -- at unknown risk -- truly challenge them.

Yet, in a perverse way, our predicament makes life simpler. We have clearly lost what we have lost. We can give up our futile efforts to preserve the illusion and turn our energies instead to the construction of a new time.

It is this willingness to walk away from the seductive power of the present that first divides the mere reformer from the rebel -- the courage to emigrate from one's own ways in order to meet the future not as an entitlement but as a frontier.

How one does this can vary markedly, but one of the bad habits we have acquired from the bullies who now run the place is undue reliance on traditional political, legal and rhetorical tools. Politically active Americans have been taught that even at the risk of losing our planet and our democracy, we must go about it all in a rational manner, never raising our voice, never doing the unlikely or trying the improbable, let alone screaming for help.

Getting Through Hard Times
http://prorev.com/badtimes.htm

often in america, the harsh reality of a statement such as yours is more than many can deal with. they know it to be true, but there is a unconscious agreement not to acknowledge it among some. so, as you have found out, the naming of the beast is far more problematic than the beast itself. and when it comes of the use of the word "racist" there are apparently A LOT of rules you have to follow and you have to be very, very careful. some people will always be eager to tell you that it's not *really* racism. some will tell you that you need tons of "proof" before you can use that word. others will tell you that you should consider interpreting his words in a different way, or cut him some slack because he's otherwise a nice guy, etc, etc, etc. you can't just cry racism, when it might possibly be a whole host of other meaning to what he said, or meant, etc, etc, etc...that's what they often say :eyes:

no...YOU weren't wrong. but this is the dissonant dynamic:
yes calling a bigot a racist is more of a problem with some than the bigot's racist statements.

welcome to america :hi:

...the chest-beating neanderthals who've been 'emboldened' by the results of yet another stolen election - or at best one that was won by a very, very, very thin margin (aka Man Date)...

You were NOT out of line. The best tactic I've found with these apes is to just ignore them until they crawl back under the floorboards like the cockroaches they are. That'll happen quicker if you give them the persona non grata treatment (ignore them as if they didn't exist).

Doing so keeps the 'power' in YOUR control. It's not easy sometimes to ignore their alpha-male delerium and chest-beating, but it seems to work best.

The fact is, however, it's the wrong question altogether.

First of all, the only "line" to not be "out of" is your own integrity.

Secondly, what is the REAL question? The real question is: how do we make an EFFECTIVE response?

Obviously, name-calling and swearing have little shock value -- they are ineffective weapons. They cause no damage to the target, they don't break through the hard crust of the target's assumed righteousness, and wielding ineffective weapons diminishes our stature as serious warriors.

We are at war, we are at war against the fascists. Therefore, we ought to be thinking of ourselves as warriors, and honing our combat skills. Our anger and disgust with rascism and bigotry are completely justified and morally righteous.

My humble suggestion for a more effective response: show him (and coincidently, all the other board participants) how his attitude is a perfect mirror of the attitude of the "terrorists". Say something like, "Wow, I didn't realize that you and Osama Bin Laden were such ideological soulmates! I'm sure he justified 9/11 on the very same grounds -- a big 'Fuck you' to America. Are you proud of yourself that your mindset is the exact same as his?"

That sort of response has two benefits; it puts the knuckle-dragger on the defensive AND provides an opportunity for the audience to make a valuable insight for themselves.

Wildly swinging a broadsword may bring some momentary personal satisfaction, but if your opponent can easily duck the blow, it doesn't really accomplish much. Far better is a little verbal ju jitsu that turns the opponents arguments against him.

sw

...the difficulty we have is assuming that these people are NOT stupid. They are.

Secondly, why are we maintaining any decorum again? Some people on this thread have (over)intellectualized this to the point that I swear their IQ has to have regressed in the process.

"We should be civil because otherwise they will think they have a rational argument????" Yeah, most RW bigots I've met are real deep thinkers :rolleyes:

Our biggest problem is that WE are dumber than we think or else we would see these assholes as the shit-for-brains they are and remove the kid gloves once and for all.

THESE PEOPLE ARE TOO GODDAMN STUPID FOR FUCKING WORDS!!!!!

I don't see anything in your post that would appear to be a response to what I wrote.

As for "removing the kid gloves", how, exactly, do you propose that we do this?