Is there a Progressive Christan/Non-Christian schism?

This is not to flame. It's just I have seen venom spewed from both sides and so thought this was a good topic to discuss. My rant is a bit long, sorry about that. If anything, skip to the bottom two paragraphs...

What do the CIvil Rights, anti-war, environmentalism, maintianing the sep between Churchand State and the Popularist Movement have in common?
They all were started by and/or had a strong RELIGOUS COMPONENT/ADVOCATE. And they are ALL PROGRESSIVE ISSUES. And becuase Christainity is the most common faith in the US, by religous, I also mean predomintly Christian. (not to say other faiths and atheists don't contribute greatly as well. But christians have the advantage of numbers)

yet I also see a great deal of misunderstanding and even resentment over Christianity. Non-Christians point out, accuratly) that the religion has several past abuses. And that it is people calling themselves "Christians" that are attacking non-christians and others with whom they disagree. The progressive Christians feel (not without justification) that they are being attacked by thier fellow progressives, that's it's not thier fault that others have abused thier faith. To these guys, they are Progressive BECAUSE they are Christian. (and since I am progressive becuase I am Pagan, I can certainly understand the sentiment).

Oddly, I see both the non-Christians and christian progressives having parts of the truth on this .

Does this seem like how it is to you guys? That's how it seems to me.

Anyway, my point. I think the problem is..who speaks for the Christian community? Who has laid claim to the title, officialy or not? Why would non-Christians feel that ALL Christians are attacking them when the religouse right does?

To put it this way... when the Family research Council puts out another baseless rant saying that gay people are out to recruit and should have thier kids taken away, who speaks out against that on the Religous Liberal side? What Christians are trying to defend Gay Familes?

When you have politicans saying that pagans shouldn't be part of the armed forces or act as Chaplans at prisons or hospitals..what Theists speak against them besides the Pagans being attacked?

When the media says that the election was swung becuase peopel voted thier "values" to ban gay marriage, why don't they mention how many people voted thier values in opposing an illegal war or the abandoning of social and economic justice?

What is the Liberal counter to the 700 Club or Focus on the Family or the thousand other hate groups masquerading as "christians"?

when Falwell or Baur is on the news talking about the "Christian" perpesctive to an issue, where is the LIBERAL Christian to counter him?

I am not saying there aren't any. I see points here and there. Jesse Jackson and Sharpton are preachers. The Advocate frequently has Clerics writing guest columns. The interfaith council does preach tolerance (usualy).
But whether you want to blame the media or the right's ability to lock step or just better PR and organization, the Religouse Left seems lacking.

Intellectually we non-christans know progressive, non-bigoted christans exist. But when the religouse right is attacking people, emotionally we get blinded by the fact that people calling themselves "christians" are responsable. The Heart blinds what the Mind should see.

So I guess, to sum up this long ass rant, maybe we should think about two things...

1. Most importantly remember the Values that unite progressives, no matter what thier religion or lack there of. One doesn't have to beleive in Jesus or not beleive to think that this war is wrong or that gay people deserve to be as happy (or as miserable) as the rest of us. Be careful about being overly sensitive or offensive and remeber the goal.

2. We need to work to get the religous left on better footing with the right. If they insist on making a religous excuse for thier crap, then fine. we should counter by using religion to show how they are wrong. we can still use facts and such. In fact, that is best. But we can't run away or turn off everytime they use God. When they use religion and we don't, we let them control the debate. But the point is to specificly counter thier religous arguements, not turn a debate into dogma. They have abused the notion of Divinity and used God like a club.. They need to have that weapon taken away.
In other words, show how they are factually and if they insist on using scripture as proof, wrong there as well.

Just a thought...

see past their blindness.
When you try to tell them any facts, they just get this blank look on their face and repeat, I don't care, Im a voting for him anyway.
I consider myself a liberal and a christian. In fact I have trouble with the views of the right wing when they want to cut all the funding to the less fortunate and support a war among other views.

fundies vs. the "immoral" ...

However, I have seen Christian leftists take on the Christian wRong on several occassions.

I saw a Methodist pastor recently take on a Southern Baptist.

What you also should realize is that our Christian leftist candidates risk turning off the likes of some if they promote their personal beliefs to a great extent.

Many of our liberal heros had a strong "religious" conviction.

Paul Wellstone
John F Kennedy
Martin Luther King

and on and on.

We need tolerance among the Christian left as well as on the agnostic/athiest left. For example I spend much time discussing Christianity with Athiests from a "fundie" view point. Some discuss the bible with me as though I'm a literalist, and I'm not. I don't believe in the garden of eden as a literal place, nor do I believe in immaculate conception. In fact there are Christians who don't believe in Heaven.

The Center For Progressive Christianity is a good group and might be what your looking for? There are actually several Christian leftist groups that would to be given a voice against the likes of Dobson and Fallwell.

http://www.tcpc.org/

you said it perfectly. that statement applies to so many things. that statement is why we lost the election. that statement is why we can't get others to see what is really going on. and yes, when we got emotional at kerry's concession, that statement fits as well...

blessed be

The better to counter the religosue right? Insist that when they have a right wing "christian values" guy on, they need ot have a progressive Christian as well?

Most religious people I have known that would vote Democrat and favor Democrat economic policies, still don't think gays should be allowed to adopt kids. You won't catch them bashing gays blatantly but they don't believe homosexuality is in keeping with "God's law".

If you are talking about socially-liberal evangelicals, in short, you won't find any, though you will find alot of people who will favor liberal economic policies and favor some toleration (Rev. Tony Campolo, for instance). You'll have to go to Unitarian Universalits or Episcopalians, and those people won't have resonance with most regular churchgoers.

Most of the founding father were, and the majority of presidents, too, fwiw...

I have this debate going on inside myself internally.

I was raised in the Catholic Church and even attended a Catholic School.

We were taught things like Jesus loves you and forgives you in one breath, but then basically told we were all scumbag sinners who were going to hell for the slightest transgression in the next instant.

We were shown the passages about "judge not less ye be judged", yet again we had the Priests up on the pulpit giving their sermons filled with judgements.

Plus this is not to mention the violence we were subjected to, under the guise of "corporal punishment," yet they'd tell us Jesus loved children and was "non-violent."

Of course you can probably guess what they told us all about sex, and now comes the stories in the press about some priests and sexual abuse. For the record I never saw that particular problem in our school, just the corporal punishment stuff.

You can argue that it is just different interpretations of the Bible, but the Bible itself has contradictions. Then of course you get those saying but men wrote the bible and they could have gotten some parts wrong, but then how do you know which parts are wrong and which parts are right.

More and more I find myself moving away from Christianity. I am not gay but I refuse to judge any one who is. I probably would not have an abortion but won't judge anyone who does.

I know not all Christians do judge others but more and more seem to be doing so. Then of course it is not just Christians but Muslims etc trying to impose their beliefs on others. And again, I'm not saying all but some.

I just can't personally see where religion helps anything, it has hurt me more than anything. It has me so messed up, I've had to be in therapy for the past ten years, but that's just me.