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Michael_UK Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:24 AM
Original message
The Repubs are probably happy some of us say Kerry won
I'm one of those Duers who believe that Bush won (fairly and squarely) as much as I dislike it.

I suspect that there were irregularities and even some fraud, but nowhere near enough to have given the election to Bush unfairly.
By saying Kerry won, I fear it makes us look like freeper creationists, dismissing all evidence that a priori, we disagree with because it doesn't fit into our conclusions.

We on the left should be about reason, fairness, and enlightenment thinking.

(I'm sorry if this pisses some people off, but it's how I feel)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. in a way , who won is a side issue...what's important: that elections
are truly fair....that everyone entitled to vote is registered and gets to vote without harassment or any problems.....THAT THE VOTE IS ACCURATELY COUNTED

If we cannot be sure our vote counts, then we don't live in a democracy
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. Go back to sleep. n/t
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. HELLO??!! yes, let's ignore all those "irregularities" & slink away
like tail-drooping dogs

Even ONE "irregularity" is grounds for a recount if "democracy" is to have any meaning at all. And with each passing day the stories of "irregularities" increase--all "strangely" in favor of Bush and none in favor of Kerry.

But we should be about "reason, fairness and enlightenment (sic) thinking"--so don't question those results, bow down to your newly and illegitimately "elected" emperor.

good-bye
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Michael_UK Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I agree
Let the recount go on, but don't all pretend Kerry's gonna win!
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. There is much more at stake here then 2004
Those of you who refuse to acknowledge what is going on are a big part of the problem.

Don't pretends that the evidence of irregularities , all favoring bush, doesn't exist.
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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
5. No apologies needed . . .
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 06:46 AM by TaleWgnDg
here are some relevant quotes:

"We know this was an emotional election, and the losing side is very upset," said Daniel Hoffheimer, the lead lawyer for the Kerry campaign in Ohio. But, he said, "I have not seen anything to indicate intentional fraud or tampering."

"A preliminary study produced by the Voting Technology Project, a cooperative effort between the California Institute of Technology and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, came to a similar conclusion. Its study found 'no particular patterns' relating to voting systems and the final results of the election."

" 'The 'facts' that are being circulated on the Internet,' the study concluded, 'appear to be selectively chosen to make the point.'"

"Whether that will ever convince everyone is an open question."

" 'I'd give my right arm for Internet rumors of a stolen election to be true,' said David Wade, a spokesman for the Kerry campaign, 'but blogging it doesn't make it so. We can change the future; we can't rewrite the past.' "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x47124

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/12/politics/12theory.html?pagewanted=all&position=


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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Nothing relevent here.
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

A few here are like the proverbial frog in the pot of water. Until it's too late they will pretend that everything is fine and they will do nothing.
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markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. All of the voter suppression doesn't amount to Fraud or Tampering?
That is wrong, wrong, wrong.

This has been going on for decades. When I joined a U.S. Senate campaign in the south in 1986, I was sent a folder almost four inches thick with documentation and legal proceedings against the GOP for prior vote suppression in the 1980s.

The public must understand by Nov. 2006: Republicans lie, cheat and steal. It's not a perception. It's a fact.

And anyone who denies it lies, cheats and steals.

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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. How can you say bu$h won (fairly and squarely) when
everything these criminals touch gets corrupted?
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Bark Bark Bark Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
8. The Evidence Mounts--Who Will Choose To See It?
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 06:56 AM by Bark Bark Bark
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=homepage_archives&page=4

A simple peek at the graphs in the article "Kerry Margins: Paper-ballot and Non-paper ballot states..." should give anyone who genuinely gives a damn about America a little chill; further reading will make such symptoms worse.

Pretend we had a horse race. The favorite won. But the line judges declare the gimpy nag who came in second--which they bet on themselves--to be the winner. It's Bush by a nose! A MIRACLE!!

Some of us are telling ourselves that we lost fair and square, but if we train hard, our horse'll be even faster--and THEN we'll win the next race!

The line judges hear this, giggle, and roll their eyes.

(Yes, I'm well aware that that little story doesn't constitute proof in any way. The stuff's spread all over DU now. We just shouldn't be so damned quick to lay down and die, even if NYT says we should.)
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
9. Look. Even if you truly think Bush won, shouldn't
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 07:01 AM by cornermouse
a system have been put into place for the first two or three elections to physically count the votes for comparison to the electronic tallies as a way of measuring the accuracy of the computers.

If it confirmed the accuracy of the e-vote then everything would have been fine and dandy. If it showed that there were problems, then obviously steps could be taken to fix them. Something along the lines of the sunshine laws which Bush has been trashing with great regularity, but that's not the way this was set up. Instead if there is a discrepancy, its been set up so that we'll never know. As such, I don't think you should be surprised that people are questioning the final vote.
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ColdNovember Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Who is in charge of this stuff
We knew things were messed up since the Florida elections. That was four years ago.

Why didn't anybody look into a better solution then?

I think someone (that would be someone on our side) was asleep at the wheel. Must of the voting boxes came after 2000, when we should have been right on top of getting a reliable accountable method of voting out to the precints.

I keep hearing about what happened in 2004.
What the hell happened in 2000?
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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
11. I think the voting needs to
Edited on Sat Nov-13-04 07:20 AM by bushwentawol
be taken out of the hands of ESS and Diebold. Give voting oversight to a bipartisan commission made up of everyone from Left, right, & middle of the roaders. People who no longer serve in government. Give that commission access to the best computer minds around and let them devise and oversee the best voting system we can get. Anything less and we're asking for it time and time again. Heck, they may as well run Jethro in '08. What's to stop him from winning as things stand now?


edit: I realize ESS & Diebold don't run the elections. State and local election boards do. But buy the hardware these companies make. Put together our own voting software.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
12. So you're blind?
We on the left are about reason and fairness . That's why we will not allow another election to be stolen. The elections of 2000, 2002 and 2004 were not won by getting the most votes. They were won by deception, cheating and intimidation.

I suggest that you pull your head out of the sand and look around.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
15. Fuck them
I don't care what they think. I'm unconvinced of fraud, but I don't care one bit what freepers or even the general public thinks at this point.

We're so far down the hole that I don't care. The posters that are investigating the irregularities/peculiarities of this election deserve praise. The vote must ultimately be verified and scrutinized.
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Carolinian Donating Member (861 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
16. Bullshit.
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
18. You mean like this???...
"KERRY WON OHIO
JUST COUNT THE BALLOTS AT THE BACK OF THE BUS
In These Times
Friday, November 12, 2004

Most voters in Ohio chose Kerry. Here's how the votes vanished.

By Greg Palast

This February, Ken Blackwell, Ohio's Secretary of State, told his State Senate President, "The possibility of a close election with punch cards as the state's primary voting device invites a Florida-like calamity." Blackwell, co-chair of Bush-Cheney reelection campaign, wasn't warning his fellow Republican of disaster, but boasting of an opportunity to bring in Ohio for Team Bush no matter what the voters wanted. And most voters in Ohio wanted JFK, not GWB. But their choice won't count because their votes won't be counted.

The ballots that add up to a majority for John Kerry in Ohio -- and in New Mexico -- are locked up in two Republican hidey-holes: "spoiled" ballots and "provisional" ballots.

OHIO SPOILED ROTTEN
American democracy has a dark little secret. In a typical presidential election, two million ballots are simply chucked in the garbage, marked "spoiled" and not counted. A dive into the electoral dumpster reveals something special about these votes left to rot. In a careful county-by-county, precinct-by-precinct analysis of the Florida 2000 race, the US Civil Rights Commission discovered that 54% of the votes in the spoilage bin were cast by African-Americans. And Florida, Heaven help us, is typical. Nationwide, the number of Black votes "disappeared" into the spoiled pile is approximately one million. The other million in the no-count pit come mainly from Hispanic, Native-American and poor white precincts, a decidedly Democratic demographic.

Ohio Republicans, simultaneously in charge of both the Bush-Cheney get-out-the-vote drive and the state's vote-counting rules, doggedly and systematically insured the spoilage pile would be as high as the White House.

Vote spoilage comes in two flavors. There are "overvotes" -- too many punches in the cards -- and "undervotes." Here we find the hanging, dimpled and "pregnant" chads created by old, dysfunctional punch card machines, in which the bit of paper covering the hole doesn't fall out, but hangs on. Machines can't read these, but we humans, who know a hole when we see one, have no problem reading these cards ... if allowed to. This is how Katherine Harris defeated Al Gore, by halting the hand count of the spoiled punch cards not, as is generally believed, by halting a "recount."

Whose chads are left hanging? In Florida in 2000 federal investigators determined that Black voters' ballots spoiled 900% more often than white voters, mainly due to punch card error. Ohio Republicans found those racial odds quite attractive. The state was the only one of fifty to refuse to eliminate or fix these vote-eating machines, even in the face of a lawsuit by the ACLU.

Apparently, the Ohio Republicans like what the ACLU found. The civil rights group's expert testimony concluded that Ohio's cussed insistence on forcing 73% of its electorate to use punch card machines had an "overwhelming" racial bias, voiding votes mostly in Black precincts. Blackwell doesn't disagree; and he hopes to fix the machinery ... sometime after George Bush's next inauguration. In the meantime, the state's Attorney General Jim Petro, a Republican, strategically postponed the trial date of the ACLU case until after the election.

Fixing a punch card machine is cheap and easy. If Ohio simply placed a card-reading machine in each polling station, as Michigan did this year, voters could have checked to ensure their vote would tally. If not, they would have gotten another card.

Blackwell knows that. He also knows that if those reading machines had been installed, almost all the 93,000 spoiled votes, overwhelmingly Democratic, would have closed the gap on George Bush's lead of 136,000 votes.


JIM CROW'S PROVISIONAL BALLOT
Add to the spoiled ballots a second group of uncounted votes, the 'provisional' ballots, and -- voila! -- the White House would have turned Democrat blue.

But that won't happen because of the peculiar way provisional ballots are counted or, more often, not counted. Introduced by federal law in 2002, the provisional ballot was designed especially for voters of color. Proposed by the Congressional Black Caucus to save the rights of those wrongly scrubbed from voter rolls, it was, in Republican-controlled swing states, twisted into a back-of-the-bus ballot unlikely to be tallied.

Unlike the real thing, these ballots are counted only by the whimsy and rules of a state's top elections official; and in Ohio, that gives a virtually ballot veto to Secretary of State Blackwell.

Mr. Blackwell has a few rules to make sure a large proportion of provisional ballots won't be counted. For the first time in memory, the Secretary of State has banned counting ballots cast in the "wrong" precinct, though all neighborhoods share the same President.

Over 155,000 Ohio voters were shunted to these second-class ballots. The election-shifting bulge in provisional ballots (more than 3% of the electorate) was the direct result of the national Republican strategy that targeted African-American precincts for mass challenges on election day.

This is the first time in four decades that a political party has systematically barred -- in this case successfully -- hundreds of thousands of Black voters from access to the voting booth. While investigating for BBC Television, we obtained three dozen of the Republican Party's confidential "caging" lists, their title for spreadsheets listing names and addresses of voters they intended to block on any pretext.

We found that every single address of the thousands on these Republican hit lists was located in Black-majority precincts. You might find that nasty and racist. It may also be a crime.

Before 1965, Jim Crow laws in the Deep South did not bar Blacks from voting. Rather, the segregationist game was played by applying minor technical voting requirements only to African-Americans. That year, Congress voted to make profiling and impeding minority voters, even with a legal pretext, a criminal offense under the Voting Rights Act.

But that didn't stop the Republicans of '04. Their legally questionable mass challenge to Black voters is not some low-level dirty tricks operation of local party hacks. Emails we obtained show the lists were copied directly to the Republican National Committee's chief of research and to the director of a state campaign.

Many challenges center on changes of address. On one Republican caging list, 50 addresses changed from Jacksonville to overseas, African-American soldiers shipped Over There.

You don't have to guess the preferences registered on the provisional ballots. Republicans went on a challenging rampage, while Democrats pledged to hold to the tradition of letting voters vote.

Blackwell has said he will count all the "valid" provisional ballots. However, his rigid regulations, like the new guess-your-precinct rule, are rigged to knock out enough voters to keep Bush's skinny lead alive. Other pre-election maneuvers by Republican officials -- late and improbably large purges of voter rolls, rejection of registrations -- maximized the use of provisional ballots which will never be counted. For example, a voter wrongly tagged an ineligible "felon" voter (and there's plenty in that category, mostly African-Americans), will lose their ballot even though they are wrongly identified.

KERRY BLACKS OUT
It was heartening that, during his campaign, John Kerry broke the political omerta that seems to prohibit public mention of the color of votes not counted in America. "Don't tell us that in the strongest democracy on earth a million disenfranchised African Americans is the best we can do." The Senator promised the NAACP convention, "This November, we're going to make sure that every single vote is counted."

But this week, Kerry became the first presidential candidate in history to break a campaign promise after losing an election. The Senator waited less than 24 hours to abandon more than a quarter million Ohio voters still waiting for their provisional and chad-spoiled ballots to be counted.

While disappointing, I can understand the cold calculus against taking the fight to the end. To count the ballots, Kerry's lawyers would, first, have to demand a hand reading of the punch cards. Blackwell, armed with the Supreme Court's Bush v. Gore diktat, would undoubtedly pull a "Kate Harris" by halting or restricting a hand count. Most daunting, Kerry's team would also, as one state attorney general pointed out to me, have to litigate each and every rejected provisional ballot in court. This would entail locating up to a hundred thousand voters to testify to their right to the vote, with Blackwell challenging each with a holster full of regulations from the old Jim Crow handbook.

Given the odds and the cost to his political career, Kerry bent, not to the will of the people, but to the will to power of the Ohio Republican machine.

We have yet to total here the votes lost in missing absentee ballots, in eyebrow-raising touch screen tallies, in purges of legal voters from registries and other games played in swing states. But why dwell on these things? Our betters in the political and media elite have told us to get over it, move on.

To the victors go the spoils of electoral class war. As Ohio's politically ambitious Secretary of State brags on his own website, "Last time I checked,” Blackwell said, “Katherine Harris wasn't in a soup line, she's in Congress."

NEW MEXICO GOES KERRY - BUT WHO'S COUNTING?
Why single out Ohio? So it also went in New Mexico where ballots of Hispanic voters (two-to-one Kerry supporters) spoil at a rate five times that of white voters. Add in the astounding 13,000 provisional ballots in the Enchanted State -- handed out "like candy" to Hispanic, not white, voters according to a director of the Catholic Church's get-out-the-vote drive -- and Kerry wins New Mexico. Just count up the votes ... but that won't happen."
:shrug:


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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
19. ya know . . . I'd agree with you except for one teensy weensy thing . . .
THEY OWN THE FUCKING VOTING MACHINES!!! . . .

(wow . . . felt good again . . .)
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
20. If the GOP would take voting accuracy seriously this issue goes away
Of course the people who insist the election was stolen when there is no concrete evidence to show such a thing makes the left look bad. But there is enough data out there to mandate that some fair investigation take place. And of course the integrity of the ballot is important enough to require that the country establish a sound, reliable, transparent, and verifiable system pf voting.

But it feeds the right wing agenda of discrediting the left to allow blogging liberals to kvetch and moan about this matter, so I suspect no real action will be taken in the next four years to actually solve this problem.

The original poster's points are well stated and well worth considering. There is a certain koolaid-drinking quality to the belief in the stolen election. But there's as much denial of the obvious in the position that no verification of this year's mess is necessary. However you feel about this issue, looking into what really happened with all the voting irregularities and vote suppression efforts is a good idea that everyone should support.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
21. Sorry, I don't go around worrying what Repubs think.
They also think gay people have no right to be married.

They also think prayer in school is just dandy.

They actually think this war in Iraq is a fine thing!

Actually, most people here who are interested in the fraud issue are not "dismissing evidence a priori" -- fact is, the electoral system is a complete MESS, and freaking INVITES fraud.

I don't believe that monkey in the WH, who had less than a 50% approval rating, could win by such a large margin. I just don't -- I think Americans are smarter than that. And since the system is such a mess, I need PROOF that he WON fair and square. That's what this is about for me.

Kerry, schmerry, I'm so over him.
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Bark Bark Bark Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-04 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. Tom Tomorrow Begins To See The Light
http://www.thismodernworld.com/weblog/mtarchives/week_2004_11_07.html#001878

I'll forgive this little "flip-flop" because he's going in the right direction.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
23. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:36 AM
Response to Original message
24. Fraud means you lose
We shouldn't have a President in the White House who had anything to do with voter fraud. The number of votes aren't the issue at all. First we have to prove fraud, and I still haven't seen anything proving any one "glitch" was intentional and malicious. :(
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