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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:44 PM
Original message
Can A Person Oficially Renounce Their American Citizenship...
prior to becoming a legal citizen of some other country? Is it possible to abdicate one's American citizenship and be a citizen of nowhere?

-- Allen
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. yeah but you don't want to do that.
they will put you on an American frigate and sail you around forever.
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. for real? (excuse the gullibility if this isnt true)
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. No I am paraphrasing Washington Irving's A Man Without A Country.
You can't revoke your citizenship unless you are a citizen somewhere else first.
I would go about this very carefully - it would not hurt to start contacting some counselates, ( Canada ? ) first.

But honestly, I agree with you. This is not my country anymore either. This war is not being fought in our names.
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colonel odis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. didn't edward everett hale write that?
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. I read this story in high school..
don't do it..... get another passport first......
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MrUnderhill Donating Member (650 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sure....
.... if you don't want to live anywhere.

No other country is going to let you in without a passport... and you can't get one of those without being a citizen.

Why not become a citizen of wherever you want to live?
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eataTREE Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. My understanding is that you have to leave the country first.
If you're still residing in the USA, you can't renounce your citizenship.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Indeed, you must be in a foreign country to renounce.
A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:

appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
sign an oath of renunciation.

http://travel.state.gov/law/renunciation.html
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candy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. Are you serious? Why would you do that?-----------
A rather dramatic gesture wouldn't you say?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Allen is gay...it makes perfect sense to me
The writing is on the wall in this country.Failing to read it could be far uglier than any "dramatic" gesture.

And I hope Allen doesn't mind me speaking for him,but if I was gay I'd be hitching the first ride outta town too.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. How about you hitch that ride anyway?
LOL
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Oreo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. Mr Show had a good example of this...
Edited on Wed Nov-17-04 04:48 PM by Oreo
They even had Olympics for a bunch of Montana guys who each individually renounced their citizenship and created their own country which consisted of their house.

Eventually one of the guys travelled to America from his country NewFreedLand or something and said he was defecting.

Funny stuff... had to be there
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yes
aslo if you become a citizen of Rhodesia, France or Mars, you will automatically loose your American citizenship

You can walk into any US Embassy and turn in your passport, and by the way if you do not have ANY other citizenship, that is a bad place to be in, legally it places you in diplomatic and political limbo
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hollywood926 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. He's a real nowhere man
living in his nowhereland...

making all his nowhere plans...

for nobody.

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Synnical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
9. From the State Department - Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship
http://travel.state.gov/law/renunciation.html

D. DUAL NATIONALITY / STATELESSNESS

Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless and, thus, lack the protection of any government. They may also have difficulty traveling as they may not be entitled to a passport from any country. Even if they were not stateless, they would still be required to obtain a visa to travel to the United States, or show that they are eligible for admission pursuant to the terms of the Visa Waiver Pilot Program (VWPP). If found ineligible for a visa or the VWPP to come to the U.S., a renunciant, under certain circumstances, could be permanently barred from entering the United States. Nonetheless, renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting that individual back to the United States in some non-citizen status.

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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yes, it is possible to renounce and become stateless.
But probably not the best of ideas.

One must appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer, in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and sign an oath of renunciation.

Renunciation is irrevocable.


See here

http://travel.state.gov/law/renunciation.html

D. DUAL NATIONALITY / STATELESSNESS

Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless and, thus, lack the protection of any government. They may also have difficulty traveling as they may not be entitled to a passport from any country. Even if they were not stateless, they would still be required to obtain a visa to travel to the United States, or show that they are eligible for admission pursuant to the terms of the Visa Waiver Pilot Program (VWPP). If found ineligible for a visa or the VWPP to come to the U.S., a renunciant, under certain circumstances, could be permanently barred from entering the United States. Nonetheless, renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting that individual back to the United States in some non-citizen status.

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frogfromthenorth2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Renunciation is irrevocable.?!?! Really ! Well I hereby RENOUNCE FOR EVER
of U.S. citizenship!!! Wow... that FEELS GOOD!!!!
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Irrevocability of Renunciation
http://travel.state.gov/law/renunciation.html

G. IRREVOCABILITY OF RENUNCIATION

Finally, those contemplating a renunciation of U.S. citizenship should understand that the act is irrevocable, except as provided in section 351 of the INA, and cannot be canceled or set aside absent successful administrative or judicial appeal. (Section 351(b) of the INA provides that an applicant who renounced his or her U.S. citizenship before the age of eighteen can have that citizenship reinstated if he or she makes that desire known to the Department of State within six months after attaining the age of eighteen. See also Title 22, Code of Federal Regulations, section 50.20).

Renunciation is the most unequivocal way in which a person can manifest an intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Please consider the effects of renouncing U.S. citizenship, described above, before taking this serious and irrevocable action. If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please contact the Director, Office of Policy Review & Interagency Liaison, Bureau of Consular Affairs, U.S. Department of State, Washington, DC 20520.

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frogfromthenorth2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Don't worry, I won't EVER change my mind!
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
15. It'll cost you. (Expatriation tax)
I've only heard of it. So I could be incorrect. But supposedly there is a thing called expatration tax. Nice, huh? Can't even leave without getting screwed.

Just remember, you can't leave unless you have someplace to go. I was going to move to Canada, but discovered there is an array of criteria which one must meet in order to stay for longer than six months.

And also remember- hypocracy is everywhere.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. expatriation tax applies to those who renounce to avoid u.s. taxes
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html

The expatriation tax provisions apply to U.S. citizens who have renounced their citizenship and long-term residents who have ended their residency, if one of the principal purposes of the action is the avoidance of U.S. taxes.
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the other rick Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. And there is an exception clause
If you have gained citizenship in a 'country of ancestry' (i.e., me and me Irish-American wife going back to the Emerald Isle) you can avoid this law

Sorry, links are at the computer at home
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. yes you can
but do it in vanuatu: you can get credentials really easy from that country.

i hear they are practically a passport/visa mill.

also, you could reside in any international area of any airport. however, you will never be able to clear customs in any country.
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
22. Declare yourself to be an Antarctican, or Arctican, or why not Citizen
of Earth? There has to be some uninhabited island or area somewhere that you can claim citizenship to. How about contacting your local Native American Reservation?
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