A Comment on Creationism

Creationism isn't a belief that God was envolved in the creating of the Universe. A lot of very moderate believers think that science and creationism can be blended. But they do not understand what creationism is.

Creationism is the belief - according to literal interpretation of the Bible - that the world was created in 7 days some 5,000 years ago. Some would say it was created complete with a fossil record. Others have humans living at the same time as dinosaurs.

The argument against evolution is that it is not backed by "fact." Therefore it is simply another theory.

I found that to be an odd argument. Having studied Anthropology in my school days I never really considered that what we were seeing was not "fact" even though one could go out and look at the folded rocks and the fossil record in those rocks. Seemed pretty factual to me. I was able to "see" it with my own eyes. And it makes perfect sense. Humans have been on this continent for some 50,000 years.

I worked on an archeological dig in Utah that was dated back at least 10,000 years. And those artifacts were very real. When we took them out of the cave they even began to decompose again - whew?
But I guess they weren't real?

And "survival of the fittest" also makes perfect sense to me. You can see it in action everywhere in the natural world.

But who am I to challenge the likes of Jerry Falwell?

who are you going to believe? Scientists who are merely human or God? Are you going to put the studies of mere mortals above the Bible? Thats the way someone explained their belief system to me.

Strangely, these people like archeology when it backs up their theories about early Biblical history. But condemn it when it backs up other evidence.

I have a lot of problems with the Evangelical "God." It is so far from mainstream belief. All the good guys (them) will get raptured up to heaven. And everyone else will suffer horrible agonies and death. That is just so juvenile. And just plain stupid.

How do we know the stories are true then?

Every civilization has its creation myth. You can still be a Christian and believe in evolution. The people who believe in creationism have suspended all logic.

(and myself) also believe in evolution. Hey but those other types of Christians want to see us "left behind"...

The whole "Satan put the dinosaur bones with different carbon dates on them to fool us.." or the variant that God did it to see who would and wouldnot believe when confronted with them... these rationalizations are NOT in their literal bible... completely fabricated -but clung to by some. :shrug:

We went to see the Dinosaur bones at Boston's Museum of Science.

There was never any question about how the world began. The same people who believe in Creationism probably believe in 1-900 psychic lines and in alien abduction too.

I had never heard nor read such absurd rationalizations... but in the past couple of years... yikes. Read the writings of some dude who swore that noah refused to take dinos on the ark and that is why they became extinct. er.. huh?

...was created in 7 days by an all knowing and powerful God...are the same people who believe that this powerful God needs their help to make prophecy happen with regards to Armegeddon.

...also the genetic code of every organism.

As more and more genomes are mapped, traceable similarities in genotype point to the emergence and development of common traits between organisms at different branches of the tree.

Then again, maybe DNA just exists to "test our faith..." :eyes:

genetic mapping to follow human migration. It is so interesting. And a lot easier than digging up half the world.

I also just saw a program on the history of clovis points in the Americas. It put human migration as early as 50,000 years ago. It is all fascinating.

That's right up my alley, though.

You wouldn't happen to know his/her name, would you?

One was a Nova special on the clovis points - called "Clovis Point" I think. I loved that one because one of the archeologists I went to school with.

The other one was just on Sunday nite. It was a very long piece - probably two or three hours and was on human migration patterns based on DNA. Fascinating stuff. We didn't have all of that science available to us when I was studying and boy have the theories changed.

Looks like this is the show...I'll have to start watching it.

America's Stone Age Explorers

:)

I love all the archaeology stuff on PBS. And the other Nova things. They had the most incredible show on the Octipus (sp? that looks wierd.)

Scientific theory is by definition based on facts, or evidence if you will.

I get lost at that point.

a person with another point of view?

depends on who is doing the spewing.


many years ago, I spent a chnik of time as an emergency mental health worker- we'd get a call, and have to talk someone off a bridge, or negotiate for hostages, or ask a 92 year old man why he was wnadering the neighborhood without pants.

and those people we'd see who were bound up in a deeply rel;igious POV were the most intractable. you could appeal them emotionally, but they were very guarded and fearful. intellectual appeals didn't work either; belief is often impervious to the arguments of logic.

and in the end, they had a bottom-line i could never seem to do an end-run around, a perfect defensive circle. you see, when it looked like i was getting close helping them understand the impact their behvaior (ranging from fasting until the imminent armageddon, or stalking a particular offending non-beliver, et al) i became the emissary of the devil, there to seduce them from thei path they had chosen.

this was always a difficult one to get around; for those whom the religios experience has elements of delusion, it is the perfect circle- airtight, unbreachable- isolating.

not every fundie is wacked, but some are. Not every fundie willabhor dialogue... but they all have refuge to the great wall of belief that can keep them safe from progress and progressives, despite the deepening environmental and moral crisis of our age.

faith. which is based on trust. which in the end has to do with the way we move through this world as a community, and not so much how our religious connstructs trump one another's.

we need more faith, less belief, and more fossils. many more fossils.

whalerider55

the very existence of Jerry Falwell seems to deny evolution. I've always felt that people with neither humor nor imagination are the missing link between homo erectus and homo sapiens sapiens.

The Book of Genesis and theory of evolution actually fit hand in glove as long as the Book is read as poetry - which was the prevalent form of story telling of the time - full of metaphor and symbolism, just read Gilgamesh to get an idea. In fact the universe and life on this planet, and probably others, came into being in just the order cited at the beginning of the Bible. Evolution is a sticky wicket only for those who believe in the human-as-the-center universe; man as the apple of God's eye, so to speak.

fit. It makes belief a lot easier.

I question things a lot, though. I think I believe in a higher force but I don't think I know much about it - it is way too vast and complicated for me to comprehend.

But I look at this world - the beauty and the complexity of it all - and I find it very hard to believe it happened by chance. Just the complexity of a single cell organism is amazing. And there are billions of organisms and other life that are equally complicated and amazing.

But I don't believe the world was created in 7 days.

I was drawn back - particularly by the reasons that you state (the miracle of the complexity of life forms - and the miracle of self-sustaining bio diversity (until we choose to muck it up)... then there was that whole - teaching of love thing (my Jesus - not the radical right Jesus whose teaching mean zilch and whose only purpose was to give them a path to heaven (what a self-serving, shallow belief system I find that to be)... brought me back to my spiritual center.

The whole seven days thing... many don't view it as literal days...

Wasn't that the famous weasel-word used at the Scopes "Monkey Trial"?

Rough times ahead for those of us who think scientifically. I'm glad Carl Sagan isn't here to see our backwards slide into superstition and the impending stake-burnings....

I worry that science will move from the US - except on the coasts where science is still taught - to other European countries.

I wonder why England and Europe and Canada are so much more accepting of scientific things than we have been. Much of Europe is not very religious at all any more.

I don't have a problem with religion - I just have a problem with blocking out science.

with the creationist. They say that radiocarbon dating is not to be trusted therefore the earth is 5,000 to 6,000 years old. Any way god make it look like it is younger than it appears with the carbon dating. You can't use logic with these idiots. It is a waste of time. They are just too f--king stupid!!!!

I work with many fundamentalists and they aren't what we would consider "stupid."

They are just completely brainwashed where it comes to religion. They have been taught that an important part of their belief is "faith". So it is a sign of their faith in God that they believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible - even though that belief may go against scientific fact.

How about Ignoramuses. Anyone who takes faith against fact and logic is not using their brain and I consider them intellectually lazy. They would rather have someone tell them what to think than to think on their own. They are also ignorant and since the facts are out their and they ignore the facts then they are stupid but I quess reality can be harsh.

I have also worked with fundies and it is frustrating to work with them because of the lack of intellectual curiosity.

You would not believe how they "intellectualize" over their Bibles. Listen to Swaggert sometime - he loves to pontificate on Scripture.

It is a very odd concept of religion. But don't ever underestimate them as "stupid". They have gotten hold of the government - it took them years but they never give up. If they run into opposition they simple back off and come from another direction.

Have you read about the org. for values that is trying to rewrite all the history in the state parks. Edit out the stuff they don't like - containing words like feminism, gay, and abortion - and just insert what they want it to say. It is truly wierd.

That's why I call them the pod people.

that when it comes right down to it, logic is not enough. They are not interested in logic (except when it supports their already held beliefs). I was raised in a Fundamentalist Christian household and by the time I was 8, I was picking up on the inconsistencies and things that just plain don't make sense. Why is it not plain to adults? I don't know. I don't have an answer for that except to say that there is a great need to keep believing. Things are very cut and dried, black and white for them. The idea of casting off into a world of ambiguity where they would have no way of knowing if they were "good" or better than the next person (to be less forgiving of their attitude), to not know that there was an all-powerful being looking after them, that they did not have special access to the truth, is simply too daunting.

Someone once described this as trying to show someone who had always worn sunglasses about a rainbow. First, you would have to convince them that they were wearing sunglasses, then you would have to get them to remove them. And the shock would be so great that they would probably, as this writer put it, attack you violently and snatch the sunglasses back.

it's just so 20th century.